Hannah Einbinder & 'Hacks' Creators on the Final Showdown Between Ava & Deborah | Making a Scene

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Actor Hannah Einbinder, along with 'Hacks' creators Paul W. Downs, Lucia Aniello & Jen Statsky break down the third season finale. They discuss the 'double twist' of Ava & Debra's deceptions, filming the confrontation between the two and how Hannah & Jean Smart reacted when they read the script.

Variety Making a Scene presented by HBO

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00:00It was like a blazer with some black jeans and some loafers and like a dress shirt and it felt
00:05severe. Obviously, we straightened my hair. Obviously, the bob going crazy. It just was
00:11meant to be angular and severe and like business time vibes. It felt like her hair should be a
00:19fuck ass bob. Hi, I'm Hannah Einbinder. I play Ava on Hax. I'm Paul W. Downs. I'm a co-creator,
00:37co-showrunner, writer, and actor on Hax. Hi, I'm Jen Statsky. I am the co-showrunner,
00:42co-creator, and writer of Hax. My name is Lucia Agnello. I'm a co-creator, co-showrunner,
00:48writer, and director of Hax, and this is Variety's Making a Scene. They literally said it's your
00:53decision. Oh sure, they say that, but when push comes to shove, they don't want me taking any
00:57risks. Trust me. We knew the betrayal that Debra would lie to Ava and then in turn Ava would take
01:04the job from her really early on. It took a lot longer for us to figure out a more organic way to
01:08get them back together in the beginning of the season, but the end of the season, especially
01:12Bulletproof and the finale, felt like it was one of the first things that really we knew what it
01:16was, and it really helped us to be able to write towards it. It's not about our relationship. It's
01:22about making the show work. Don't you get it? It'll work better because of our relationship.
01:29We don't really give our actors too much of a heads up. Sometimes a couple actors want to know
01:35what their season is going to be, and so we're happy to talk them through it, but especially
01:40Gina and Hannah just read the scripts, and I think that it's kind of more fun that way because they
01:46get to really see it on the page, and I think it's kind of more exciting. I think as an actor,
01:50Jean has said that she really likes to kind of come at it as she would Debra Vance.
01:56She doesn't want to know too much in advance what's going to happen because she doesn't want
02:00that to influence the work she's doing. She's very present and in the moment of whatever the scene is
02:05that she's working on. I remember where we were when Hannah read it. We were shooting the kitchen
02:10scene in 304 where after Debra has taken the toilet paper and defended bisexuals and they get
02:16into it, because we shoot out of order, so that was a scene in four that was shooting right
02:21before the finale, and the finale script had gone out, and then Hannah came over to us in Village
02:26and was like, oh shit. I was on set. We were shooting something else, and I was just like
02:32start crying. I can't read those final scenes, especially the living room scene
02:39without getting emotional, so I definitely was like, oh my god. I walked over to Paul,
02:44Jen, and Lucia at their chairs, and I was like, this is sad, but I was so clear on that last
02:52scene where they have that confrontation that I was like, oh, I already know. I can see it.
02:55I can see that it's going to feel like Italian mob movie type performance. On my end, I was like,
03:03yeah, I definitely can see what this will feel like. She had a similar reaction. She was like,
03:08you dirty dog. You know, Jean is so funny because she usually reads the script, and then she comes
03:15to us and to Hannah with the reaction Debra would have, like, no, no, no, you know, but I think she
03:20was also really excited by the twist. I think neither of them saw it coming. We do kind of
03:26a double twist because Debra lies to Ava, and then Ava takes the job back, so there's kind of
03:32a double twist that I think, I don't know, packed an extra punch for them. You needed me. I do,
03:37but not to be my head writer. Well, what about what I need? What you need is to take the win
03:44of being on the staff and be happy. I remember that there was a lot of conversation about,
03:49yeah, how far should they each go, and, like, that line where Ava says you're going to die alone,
03:54like, that wasn't originally in there. We're constantly, the three of us, even after our
03:59razor mends, we're, like, rewriting everything on set, so I remember being on set at Village,
04:03working on another, shooting another episode, but rewriting that scene. Like Paul said,
04:07we rewrote that scene over and over and adding that, like, you're going to die alone line,
04:13and we were, there was a lot of debate between the three of us, like, is that too far? Is that,
04:17no, we think that she needs to go that far, and you'll, if you were to be in our video Village,
04:23you'll also see, often see a laptop literally being handed to one, handed back over, and they
04:28go, yeah, that's good, that's good, because, you know, like, we really are literally, as we're
04:33shooting something else, literally putting pages out at the same time, which I guess a lot of
04:37people probably do, but it feels insane. You are so selfish. Yes, I am. You have to be selfish.
04:47Well, I don't want to be. For me, it was, like, trying so hard to memorize the lines without
04:54spending the performance, because, like, this is a credit to the writing of the show, like,
04:58whenever there is an emotionally heavy scene for me, it is very hard for me not to cry as I am
05:04memorizing the lines, because of the quality of the material, honestly, and how close I feel to
05:10these characters, and to Paul-Jen and Lucia, who write these words, and it just feels like this
05:14very sentimental thing that I feel very close to, so it just was, kind of, make decisions and make
05:20choices in my memorization, whilst also not, kind of, spending that emotion. We ran it a little bit,
05:27just, like, in hushed tones. We just, kind of, went in and did it. Sometimes there is something
05:34to just letting the first crack at it from the actors be on camera, because sometimes there's
05:39something just, like, really lovely about those raw choices, but in particular, this one would
05:44have been nice to step through for camera, because there is a little bit of movement, but Hannah just
05:49was, like, I'll start to cry, so you don't want my face red on take one, and so we said, okay,
05:53let's not then. I just wanted to, like, really make it feel like it was happening in real time,
06:01which it was for me as well, like, in my own experience, you know, not only just for Jean,
06:07so that we could play off each other, but, like, for myself as well. And, you know, that is a
06:11testament to how these women, both Jean and Hannah, don't play at something. They are so dropped into
06:18the characters that, you know, it happened, actually, in this season, that Jean was talking
06:23about why she wants to get late night and what her childhood was like, and Jean was moved, and she
06:28was, like, I'm sorry, I know I'm not supposed to get emotional in the scene, but I think she
06:31herself is so dropped into the character and sympathetic to the characters that she found
06:36herself moved on that day, and I think it's true for Hannah and Jean in that final scene. They're
06:42not stepping through as craftspeople. They are really artists who are fully embodying those
06:45characters, and I think it's very real for them, so I think for Hannah, she's, like, I can't say
06:49these words without getting really upset, because what's happened between these two characters for
06:55three seasons is all building to this.
06:57That day, like, I was really trying to avoid getting too emotional too quickly, and so I did start a
07:05prank cam around set, which I affectionately named the Hannie Cam, and I basically would
07:11do hidden camera on someone walking around, and then they'd catch me, and I'd be like,
07:15you got Hannie Cammed, and then they'd be like, ah, and so, like, I was just kind of messing all day,
07:21just being silly, and that was definitely, like, my way of being, like, okay, keeping it light, like,
07:27just being so 12 years old on set, like, just trying to, like, make everybody smile and also
07:36laughing myself. Yeah, but then, obviously, when the sun, when the sun set, unleashed the darkness.
07:43I put you first, because I care about you. I can't believe you won't do that for me.
07:51The first thing I really wanted to do was have the camera be very active at the top of it to
07:56kind of match Ava's energy, so both the camera is pulling with her and behind her is pushing behind
08:02her, so it feels like you're literally with Ava, and you're attacking Deborah, so you're very much
08:07in Ava's POV, and then in terms of the camera beyond once Ava actually lands, it really is
08:15fully following the actors, which sometimes we do that on the show, but in this one, it is the camera
08:19moves when the actor moves and not before, because it is fully about their feelings and their emotions.
08:25It's never trying to, you know, frame for comedy or comedic moment or anything. It is
08:29cut, cut, cut, cut, because it is antagonistic, and so there aren't really too many two shots.
08:34It's really kind of framed to be two sides that are simply at a stalemate. Again, like,
08:40sometimes the best direction I think is the least amount of direction in terms of, you know,
08:45just letting the performance be really all that you're paying attention to, so there are no shots
08:50in there that don't feel like they're just framed around their faces, because that's all that you
08:54should be paying attention to. I wanted to do it with you. I want that too. I just can't have you
08:59be Ed Reiter. That's not fair. Oh, congratulations. You're right. The business isn't fair. Ava and
09:06Debra have respectively mommy and daughter issues, right? Ava's mom is not easy to connect with,
09:13and Debra is not great at connecting with DJ, and their relationship has many dynamics within it,
09:20and one of them is this mom-daughter figure that the two of them do not have,
09:25and that moment to me is like tapping into that dynamic of it's not fair, you know, when a kid
09:34is like saying that to their parent, and that felt like really, yeah, just kind of raw in that
09:42sort of dynamic, and so I kind of wanted to be like a little girl crying. I am asking for you
09:49to treat me fairly because you owe me that. Stop crying. This is just the way it is.
09:56We really try and treat both characters with love and sympathy, and Ava's really being very
10:04vulnerable in that scene and saying, I get that the business isn't fair. I get that you've been,
10:09you've suffered a million indignities, and you know more about show business than I do,
10:12but this is about us, and I want you to treat me fairly, and she gets emotional,
10:17and Debra is the kind of person who's like stop crying because I've had to not cry on a stage
10:24or on a set a million times. Women can't do that, so we just try and, I think, imbue the dialogue
10:30with the history these two have, one who's been in show business for 45 years and one who's newer
10:37to it and is much more in touch with her emotions. She's less guarded because she's had less trauma.
10:41She's had to build up less of an armor, which Debra's had to do for decades.
10:47It wasn't like in the stage direction. We said, you know, obviously she said stop crying, so
10:52Hannah knew that she needed to be emotional, but I think Hannah was just also so in it that that
10:57came naturally to her that she would be emotional at that point because she's saying something that
11:01is very vulnerable and very moving, I think, when she says, yeah, the world isn't fair,
11:05but this is about us. I want you to treat me fairly. There's a vulnerability there that she
11:11can access and go to really quickly and really easily. I mean, she makes it look easy. I'm sure
11:17it's very difficult for her, and that, I think, is why she is so good and why you feel for her
11:22so much as she plays Ava is that she is really willing and able to access those feelings and
11:28those emotions in a way that it doesn't ever feel forced. She really is so in touch with herself,
11:35and she's a very empathetic and relationally smart and intuitive person, and I think that
11:41really comes through in the character of Ava. So much of Hannah is coming through in that.
11:46Justin, speaking about the line, stop crying, I think we try a lot to have our dialogue say
11:55more than it does on the page, and I think that there's dual meaning in that moment because
11:59Debra says stop crying, both because she's like, don't show weakness as a woman in this business,
12:04but also, I think it's also self-protective because she's saying, please stop crying,
12:08because it does affect Debra, and Debra does not want to feel the pain that Ava feels. She's like,
12:15stop crying because it's making me emotional, too. You know, I think there's a little bit of that.
12:19They're making her feel guilty.
12:20Yeah, yeah. There's an armor Debra has. I mean, it's also intentional that in episode
12:26seven, she says to her sister Kathy, like, I don't want to see you cry. Like,
12:30Debra is not a sociopath, so even though she's probably been accused of it many times.
12:34She is a narcissist. We can't say that.
12:35She's a narcissist, but she does feel things, and so, like Paul is saying, she doesn't want
12:41to feel someone's emotions reflected back at her, and it makes her confront what she's done
12:45to get them there, and so she's really, like, asking Ava not to go there so that she can
12:51keep up this armor that has been what she's used for 50 years in this career.
12:56It has to work. I've lost way too much for it not to.
13:01And you're okay with losing me, too?
13:05I'm willing to.
13:06There is a certain aspect of this where I feel, like, really locked into the characters and their
13:16experience of one another and how that relates to themselves, but also, I will say, like,
13:21I did do some substitution where, like, I tapped into, like, some of my own sorrow,
13:30and so I feel like that line, I think, was tapping into my own fears and pain, but I'm looking at
13:38Jean, who is a very close person in my life, who is so the opposite of Debra in so many ways,
13:45and I'm conscious of Paul, Jen, and Lucia watching us do this, and I am saying their
13:51words, and I am feeling this relationship between these characters who bond over comedy and over
13:59this shared love language, also feeling in real life with Jean and with them that I have that
14:05connection with them, and it is very emotional. It's very overwhelming, and I feel like that
14:13is kind of what carries me in those moments.
14:22I'm really, really happy to see you.
14:26I realized I belong here. It was, like, a blazer with some black jeans and some loafers and, like,
14:32a dress shirt, and it felt severe. Obviously, we straightened my hair. Obviously, the bob going
14:38crazy. It just was meant to be angular and severe and, like, business time vibes.
14:44A fuck-ass bob.
14:50Yeah, I mean, in that last scene, Ava is embodying a new version of herself. It's not a totally new
14:58version, of course, but it is a next level of taking everything Debra has taught her and
15:03implementing it into her life and into what she wants and feels she deserves and also what she
15:09feels she must do to make the show work and to keep what Debra and Ava have built alive.
15:16Yeah, it was intentional that it felt like her hair should be a fuck-ass bob, straight,
15:22and she should be kind of dressing the part of wearing a blazer.
15:25Very writer.
15:26Very writer. And so, yeah, it's, you know, I think all of that stuff helps,
15:30helped Hannah get so into that moment. She plays it so well, and it's so dramatic and good,
15:35and I think the costuming and the hair kind of all informs that for her.
15:40I don't really work in a, like, traditional, like, business environment ever, really,
15:47because I'm a clown. So, like, it was definitely, it definitely felt like I was stepping into
15:53a mood by putting it on and kind of being in that zone.
15:56Especially since the show needs to be bulletproof, like you said.
16:01So, I think I am your head writer after all.
16:06I did want to create, like, a layer of, like, hurt sadness very, very thinly under the confidence.
16:14You know, when Debra steps towards Ava, I feel like there's, like, a second in the eyes of, like,
16:20being scared of her, because I think she always kind of will be.
16:24But that scene was really about, like, yeah, leading with that confidence and the sort of,
16:31like, commitment to blackmailing her, whilst also, like, portraying various flickers of heartache.
16:38Ava's hot-headed, and she's definitely not the easiest person at times, but I don't think that
16:46she is vindictive, and I don't think that she has that in her, and I think it's a product of
16:53watching Debra not only abuse her, but abuse everyone around her in some way, in one way or
16:59another, or to do something purely for her own benefit. It's like Ava has no choice but to speak
17:05her language back to her. I think we dropped the bomb and then had other people enter, so that
17:10Debra was forced to agree. You know, it was a moment where Debra couldn't maneuver. She couldn't
17:16do the Debra thing, which is to figure out a way out of it. She had to immediately say to her
17:22producer, you know my head writer. So we just wanted to force Debra's back against the wall.
17:28Literally. Debra has a wall behind her back, and Ava has, you know, a beautiful view. Having them
17:34be at opposite ends of the long conference table is also a visual metaphor for them both having
17:38equal power now. Of course, Debra's still the woman on the billboard, but she now has been
17:44forced to give Ava this job as the head writer, and there is a certain amount of power that comes
17:49with that. Debra can't write or make a show without a head writer. So putting them on opposite sides
17:54of the table was definitely a visual symbolism for that. In terms of just the blocking, the fact that
17:58they go so close to each other on the I would, wouldn't you, I think also speaks to like how
18:06twisted this relationship is, and how intimate it is, and how much they've become the same opposite
18:13sides of the same coin. So you know, they're the same, and they've said that many times, like I'm
18:17I'm the same as you, you know. So what that has meant, at least in this scene, is that Debra has
18:22taught Ava the lessons that Ava now has decided to implement, and say I'm going to take what's mine.
18:28It has pushed their relationship to the brink. It's at a place it's never been before,
18:32and they have both said really rough things to each other. They've done really rough things to
18:37each other now, and there will be a lot of feelings built up, and pent up, and resentment, and anger,
18:44and yet all those feelings, and all that complicated stuff has to be dealt with while
18:49trying to create a late night show, and while Debra tries to achieve the dream of making her
18:56white whale finally happen, and work, and do it on a bigger state. Like Ava and Debra are now on a
19:01bigger stage than they've ever been before, and so it would be hard enough if they they were at
19:08the best point in their relationship. For them to be at the worst point of their relationship doing
19:12this is really tricky. I think it's a totally new dynamic between the two of them, which will be fun
19:18to play. Like I think when they're sparring, you know, like in that way, it's usually like there's
19:23a joking element to it, but I think this will be a totally new dynamic with two very sharp knives
19:32kind of going back and forth. These two women whose minds are weapons, you know, like they really
19:37will be able to like unleash their fury, and their hurt, you know, like it's definitely hurt for Ava.
19:43It's definitely like hurt for Debra. I think they're both feeling betrayed in different ways.
19:49Ava more justified. You heard me. So much about the finale bulletproof is about the lengths to
19:57which these women will go for their dream of comedy, because they are comedians. It's a comedy show
20:03about comedy writers, and they both have their dreams. Debra wants to be the host of a late
20:08night show. This has always been her dream, and Ava, you know, now part of her dream is
20:13wanting to work with Debra, but she's always wanted to write comedy that meant something.
20:18And so I think so much of what the push and pull is of this finale is about the lengths that
20:23they'll go to get that dream, to make that dream come true. And I don't know if that's something I
20:27feel like I've seen as somebody who, a woman who's wanted to make comedy for such a long time
20:32as like the goal for a female artist, let's say, on television as a protagonist. So to me,
20:38I think that that is something that I think is really important to us to show that like
20:43women who are like, my creativity is so important to me,
20:47is different than I think we've seen before. And it's something that I'm really proud of.

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