How should the gender controversy at the #Olympics be resolved?
Indian Olympic Association former Vice President Sudhanshu Mittal and Dr Ishwar Gilada discuss, in conversation with Alex Mathew. #NDTVProfitLive
Indian Olympic Association former Vice President Sudhanshu Mittal and Dr Ishwar Gilada discuss, in conversation with Alex Mathew. #NDTVProfitLive
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00:00Good evening and welcome.
00:15This is NDTV Prophet and my name is Alex Mathew.
00:18The big story today.
00:19Social media erupted last evening after Algerian boxer Iman Khalif won a welterweight fight
00:26in the ongoing Paris Olympics against Italy's Angela Carini in 46 seconds flat.
00:32In the fight, Carini didn't appear to defend well and the punch that landed in the end
00:38was taken full on the face.
00:40The controversy erupted because of allegations that were made on social media that Khalif
00:45should be disqualified from the women's event because she has the XY chromosome and so is
00:52a man.
00:53Now, this is clearly a sensitive issue, but one that needs to be addressed.
00:57And let's first look at the facts.
00:59Iman Khalif qualified for the Olympics in Paris and according to the International Olympic
01:04Committee, followed all of the rules.
01:07In a statement issued yesterday, the IOC said that all of the athletes participating in
01:12the boxing tournament of the Olympic Games Paris 2024 comply with the competition's eligibility
01:18and entry regulations, as well as the applicable medical regulations set by the Paris 2024
01:26boxing unit.
01:27It referred to two athletes without naming them, but the inference is that the athletes
01:32are Iman Khalif as well as China's Lin Yuting.
01:36Now, in its statement, the IOC says, and I quote, these two athletes were the victims
01:42of a sudden and arbitrary decision by the IBA towards the end of the IBA World Championships
01:49in 2023.
01:50They were suddenly disqualified without any due process, unquote.
01:55It also said that the eligibility rules should not be changed during ongoing competition
02:01and any rule change must follow appropriate processes and should be based on scientific
02:06evidence.
02:08Now, the IBA disqualification, therefore, becomes an important point to discuss.
02:13The International Boxing Association has come out with its own statement.
02:18The context here is important to note.
02:20The IOC derecognized the IBA in 2023 following its suspension in 2019.
02:26Now, take a look at the IBA statement.
02:29It said that the decision was made after a meticulous review and that it was important
02:34and necessary to uphold the level of fairness and integrity.
02:38Interestingly, it also said the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but
02:44were subject to a separate and recognized test.
02:47The specifics have not been disclosed.
02:50The IBA claims that the tests conclusively indicated that both the athletes did not meet
02:54eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female athletes.
03:01There was no mention of the XY chromosome, but a Reuters report at the end of July quoted
03:06IBA President Umar Kremlin as saying that both the athletes had the XY chromosome pairing.
03:13Arguments have been made on both sides, but my guest today will hopefully help to objectively
03:17discuss and debate the issue and possibly suggest the ideal way forward.
03:23I am joined today by Sudhanshu Mittal, former Vice President of the Indian Olympic Association
03:28and President of the Cocoa Federation of India, as well as Dr. Ishwar Gilada, an expert in
03:34infectious diseases, but also someone who has made a statement about this and has discussed
03:40the medical rationale about what is being said.
03:45I will come to you first, Dr. Gilada, just to talk about the medical facts here.
03:53XY chromosome, generally associated with men, but also in certain situations found
04:00in women versus XX chromosome, which is only found in women.
04:07Is there a potential for the creation of an uneven playing field in the world of sport?
04:13Thank you very much for having me on the show.
04:18I think our viewers should understand one thing very clearly, that all of us have 44XX,
04:25XX is female and 44XY is male and in the next generation, if there is a gamete formation,
04:34there is a 22X from female and 22X from male comes, it will become a female child.
04:4122X from female and 22Y from male comes and 44XY is a male child.
04:47In this particular case, there is a differentiated sexual determination and that is the reason
04:56that the differences are not clear and therefore, it is a 46XY syndrome.
05:01In 46XY syndrome, there are two kinds of hermaphrodites, one is called real hermaphrodite, where they
05:07have both male and female genital organs and pseudo hermaphrodite, they may have a male
05:16or rudimentary or partially developed male sexual genitalia, but inside they are female
05:23or vice versa.
05:24In this situation, there is a definitely 46XY and 46XY is the two chromosome extra.
05:32Now these kind of all developments happen during embryological period, that is when
05:37the child is in the womb of a mother and that differentiation happens around 12 to 16 weeks.
05:44So if there is a scan which is done during that period, which nowadays is a very common
05:50in big cities that they do anamnesis scan at 14 to 16 weeks and so this is decided even
05:56at that time.
05:57Now when the child is born, then during the infancy period, during one or two year period,
06:03the parents and the doctor who is delivering the child or a pediatrician should look at
06:08all these factors.
06:10Now in this case, where there is an adult, the factors to be seen are most important
06:16is ultrasonography.
06:17If the person comes as a female, in ultrasonography, uterus is absent, ovaries are absent, then
06:26there is ambiguity.
06:27Now there are two bodies or two different bodies, they are giving different opinion.
06:31When there are two different opinions, then you should take a third opinion.
06:35But basically this is to be objectively decided whether there is a level of some kind of testosterone
06:42or hormones which are ludic cells and sertoli cells level, secondly sonography shows that
06:49there is a presence or absence of uterus inside.
06:53Dr. Giladha, what I want to know and you very aptly described the medical process, but what
07:01I want to know is that the XY chromosome, the presence of an XY chromosome and the potential
07:07for the production of high levels of testosterone, is that tied to the ability to perform better
07:15physically than a woman?
07:18Is that medically sound argument to make?
07:22Yeah, as soon as Y comes, Y is male.
07:25Yes.
07:26So Y is a small or big or Roman or whatever, Y is male.
07:31So in this sense, either that person is described as a male or you want to describe this as
07:36a third sex.
07:37For last four decades, I have been fighting that there should be a third sex and I worked
07:42in government in JJ hospital in Mumbai and 40 years before I started making a case paper
07:48with a third sex as a either H like a hijra that they used to call or a third sex.
07:53Now it is recognized in passport, recognized in voting, recognized all over the world.
07:59Either you can describe the sex or you don't describe the sex, but you can also describe
08:03as a third sex.
08:04In this situation, when there is a third sex, that person can be either playing as a male
08:09or playing as a third sex.
08:10That person cannot be female.
08:12So a female put against a third sex person or a male, because it's a Y definitely, is
08:19an unequal competition.
08:20And that's the reason that Olympic Association has a, for male, there's a different tournament,
08:26for female there's a different tournament.
08:27Okay.
08:28And there are tournament for paraplegic.
08:29And that's, that's exactly.
08:30So if you want to do, you do a third sex tournament.
08:33That's exactly the clarification doctor that I was seeking, that there is an uneven playing
08:38field that is created.
08:40Sudhanshu Mittal is joining in.
08:41Sudhanshu, thanks so much, first of all, for taking the time.
08:45Why is there a difference in the treatment or in the reactions between the international
08:53Olympic committee as well as the IBA?
08:56Because it has been said that these two athletes have participated in several competitions
09:03over the last several years and have been allowed to do so.
09:07The issue arose when the IBA disqualified them last year.
09:13You see, that you were allowed to participate is not an argument, which is sustainable.
09:19If an objection is made at some point of time, and if they undergo a test which establishes
09:24that they're not females, then certainly any federation or any body would be valid within
09:30their rights to take action.
09:33Now, I have a few observations.
09:36You see, as far as the International Olympic Committee is concerned, the consistent stand
09:41has been that every single discipline is administered by the international body of
09:47that discipline, and the rules they follow are the rules which are then implemented.
09:53In this particular case, what has happened is that because IOC superseded the body of
09:58the International Boxing Federation and administered the game of boxing directly in these Olympics,
10:06so they've had to make this choice.
10:08Now, that is a history, but what is important is what is the solution.
10:15As Dr. Saab explained, look, the moment there is a presence of Y, it cannot be X.
10:22It can be X plus, but it cannot be X only, and the competition when it comes to females
10:28is between Xs.
10:30So either you have a separate category, which says that X, Ys are a separate category.
10:37If the administrative body of the game wants to conduct a separate tournament, so be it.
10:42Otherwise, the moment there is a presence of Y, it establishes the presence of a male
10:52harmonial system, and that obviously has an advantage over a pure female anatomy.
10:59So in that case, let the person compete in the male section.
11:03But to permit somebody with Y identifications in the female category would not be desirable.
11:14So it is now time, looking at the example which is now there before us, that a uniform
11:20standard is established.
11:22Look, this is not the first time a controversy of this kind has broken out.
11:26It had earlier happened in athletics, in swimming, in wrestling, so many other games.
11:34Mr. Mittal, an argument that is being made in this case is that, of course, and you've
11:41counted that argument right at the start, one of the arguments, which is that she was
11:45able to participate in events in the past.
11:49And the IOC has said that based on the passport, she is woman, and therefore they have allowed
11:54this to pass.
11:55That is the second point.
11:56The third point that people have said is that she has competed against women in the past
12:00and has lost.
12:03I want you to talk about the third part.
12:06You see, again, this is not a valid argument for the simple reason, let me go by each of them.
12:11First, a passport certifying somebody as a female.
12:15Every country has a different methodology which is followed today.
12:19India for the first time has now had a separate category.
12:23It was only white or black, which means either male or female.
12:26Now, that certification of a country, is it sufficient for an international body to accept
12:32it on its face value when it is challenged?
12:35No.
12:36The moment when it is challenged, you have to undertake a test and an examination of
12:40the athlete and decide whether it is male or female.
12:43Secondly, competing in the past, as I said, is no benchmark that since you competed, so
12:48you shall compete.
12:49No, that's not valid.
12:50Third, even if you lost, so what?
12:53Point is, you may have had a female who is better than a male.
12:57Does that make it permissible for a male to compete against a female?
13:02No.
13:03So, on the logic of it, I am not in agreement with it.
13:06I am not in agreement.
13:08Now to stretch this, and I did not mention this at the start because I do not believe
13:13that these two issues should be conflated.
13:16Now, however, as normally happens on social media, there are tangential arguments that
13:24are often made when a situation like this arises.
13:28Mr. Mittal, with your experience of having been the Vice President of the Indian Olympic
13:35Association and understanding how things are governed in sport, there has been an argument
13:41made over the years for trans individuals to be allowed to compete.
13:49Now, do you think that these two issues should be kept entirely separate and is there a solution
13:57that can be found for this holistically?
14:01As I said, transgenders are a reality.
14:04No, there is a difference between…
14:07Let me explain.
14:08Let me explain.
14:09I mean, there is a difference.
14:11I am not even debating that.
14:13But when you look at the conventional purity of the proposition of an X or Y, there is
14:19a grey area.
14:20Right?
14:21Now, in that situation, let us be innovative.
14:26Let us have a separate category.
14:28Why leave doubts?
14:31You know, a winner must be a winner.
14:34As they say, an apple must be compared to an apple and not an orange.
14:39So, when you are in a competitive sport, you must compete with your likes.
14:44You cannot be competing with somebody who is not like you, whether to your advantage
14:47or to your disadvantage.
14:48Yeah.
14:49Dr. Giladhar, do you want to weigh in on this?
14:55It's important to draw a distinction between a trans individual and what it is in this
14:59case because a trans individual can be XX that has transferred their sex or transformed
15:08their sex to male.
15:10Is that possible?
15:11No, no.
15:12I will just differentiate very clearly.
15:15Yes.
15:16I did my dissertation four decades before on pattern of STDs, sexually transmitted diseases
15:20in hijra cult.
15:21And before my dissertation, I went to Tata Institute of Social Science, the sixth dissertation.
15:27They said that we made so many hijras and they said they are born like that.
15:30So, my understanding is that they are born like that.
15:32That means they are born as a hermaphrodite or pseudohermaphrodite.
15:35And that was dead wrong.
15:37Hijra cult or transsexuals or transvestite or eunuchs, they are a totally different category.
15:43None of them is born as a hermaphrodite or pseudohermaphrodite.
15:46They are born as normal male.
15:49They are sex abuse and they have a mind gender identity of a female.
15:53At a particular point of time, they want to deviate from male and they want to become
15:57female.
15:58So, either they get castrated or even without getting castrated, they cross this and they
16:02remain as a female.
16:04So, in this category, they are totally third category.
16:07But whether hermaphrodite and pseudohermaphrodite should be clubbed with them, they cannot
16:12be fourth category.
16:13Therefore, they can be clubbed with them as a third category if they want to or they can
16:17be male.
16:18But they can never be female.
16:20All transsexuals, particularly males which are becoming female, they are having XY, they
16:27are not XX.
16:28There are people who would like to become male, they can be only XX.
16:32So, there are people who are changing from being transwoman or becoming male, they will
16:39have XX.
16:40And all this can be in a category which is LGBTQ and trans category.
16:45And rightfully, Government of India started having a third category where you are neither
16:50male nor female, you can't describe you there.
16:53So, I think hermaphrodite and pseudohermaphrodite, they should be categorized as third sex.
16:58They are neither male nor female.
17:00You cannot differentiate.
17:01And that's the reason that they are different.
17:03Thank you doctor for that clarification.
17:04In fact, that's the reason why I had you on the program to tell us about the medical fact
17:10of this situation.
17:12And I hope that we've been objective.
17:15I think that we have been objective in this conversation.
17:17Of course, things get blown completely out of proportion in certain situations on social
17:22media.
17:23And hopefully, there's an objective answer to this as well.
17:25Sudhanshu Mittal and Dr. Gilani, thank you so much for taking the time and joining us
17:32on this program.
17:33That was Sudhanshu Mittal as well as Dr. Gilada on this conversation, on the big story.
17:39We've got more lined up for you after this very quick break, so do stay tuned.
17:55Thank you.
18:25Thank you.
18:55Thank you.
19:25Thank you.
19:55Welcome back to The Big Story.
19:59Now, one of the big talking points in the markets this week has been the consultation
20:03paper that was issued by the SEBI that seeks to curb excesses in the futures and options
20:08market.
20:09And there's been quite a bit of debate about the implications of the seven changes that
20:12are being suggested.
20:13Earlier today, all-time member of the Security and Exchange Board of India, Anant Narayan,
20:18spoke about the thought process behind the changes.
20:20And he also said that the last hour of trade in options on expiry day resembled people
20:25playing the slot machines at casinos.
20:28Listen in.
20:31First, let me be very clear about how SEBI views derivative markets and risk-takers.
20:38There can be very little doubt that our capital markets ecosystem needs both.
20:46Derivative markets, market makers, and speculators aid price discovery, help improve market depth,
20:55and provide avenues for issuers and investors to hedge their risks.
21:01A healthy derivative market and risk-taking ecosystem aids capital formation.
21:08The question is of degrees and balance, that is, ensuring that collectively the cash and
21:16derivative market ecosystem is supportive of both investor protection and market stability
21:23and hence of sustained capital formation.
21:27As the consultation paper on the draft F&O circular brought out by SEBI a few days ago
21:33on 30th of July points out, there has been a remarkable growth in trading of index options
21:40in recent years.
21:42While cash market annual turnover increased by just over two times between fiscal year
21:4820 and fiscal year 24, index options annual turnover on a premium basis has risen by over
21:5512 times from Rs.11 lakh crores in FY20 to Rs.138 lakh crores in FY24.
22:06It is worth noting that index futures turnover did not change that much during this period.
22:14What explains this explosion in index option volumes?
22:19The proliferation of weekly expiries for index option contracts to a stage where every day
22:26of the week has an index option expiry has clearly had a role to play.
22:32There are contracts where well over 90% of the trading volume in index options occurs
22:39on the expiry day, with a significant concentration in the last hour of trading.
22:46On expiry day, all other things being equal, the time value in an option premium is naturally
22:54at the lowest, and it continues to drop through the course of the day.
23:00As such, progressively through the course of the expiry day, a speculator can buy option
23:06structures with a very small capital outlay, which can possibly provide a large profit
23:13if the index were to move only by a few points.
23:17This optically cheap option premium, which might be as low as a few hundred rupees as
23:24we approach expiry time, appears to entice a whole bunch of individuals to trade in and
23:31out on expiry day, through the day.
23:35Trading in index options, specifically close to expiry, then starts to resemble a slot
23:42machine in a casino, with individuals putting coins into the machine, hoping to hit the
23:48jackpot.
23:50Please note, it would be unfair to compare all of equity F&O with a casino, and to lose
23:58sight of its utility in capital formation.
24:01That's not what we are saying.
24:03We are talking only about the specific portions of options trading closer to expiry.
24:10This is a very focused area as far as we are concerned.
24:15NSE data shows that over 92 lakh individuals collectively lost close to 52,000 crores during
24:23FY24 in index derivatives, even without considering their transaction costs, which are
24:29substantial.
24:3399% of these individuals traded in index options.
24:37Only 7% traded in futures.
24:41During a different period, the transaction costs stood at an additional 35% of the
24:47trading losses, as per the January 2023 option study of SEBI.
24:53The finding of the January 2023 paper that 9 out of 10 individuals lose in F&O trading
25:00broadly continues to play out.
25:03The offsetting gains largely reside with some sophisticated algo-based domestic and
25:09foreign high-frequency traders.
25:12This frenzied hyperactivity in index options on expiry day has little discernible
25:20benefits while raising several issues.
25:23It would require extreme levels of imagination to be able to attribute any
25:29kind of constructive support for market-wide price discovery, hedging or
25:34capital formation from this hyperactivity in index options on expiry day.
25:40In addition, to put the numbers in perspective for capital formation, the net
25:46trading loss borne by individuals during FY24 in index derivatives, as described
25:52in the consultation paper, is nearly a third of the net inflows into growth and
25:59equity-oriented schemes of all mutual funds during FY24.
26:04These are certainly not insignificant and indicate that money that could be put
26:10into constructive capital formation is being frittered away at scale.
26:16Finally, the frenzied trading on option expiry day also raises questions of
26:23market stability and possible vulnerability to manipulation.
26:28Market open interest rises during pockets of the last hour before expiry
26:35amidst very low option premiums being dealt.
26:39If there were to be an unforeseen black swan global market moving event minutes
26:44before expiry amidst this frenzied activity and risk-taking, the resultant
26:50impact on the overall market ecosystem can be substantial.
26:56As a regulator, we are conscious that we must not throw the baby out with the
27:02bathwater. When it comes to the frenzied trading
27:06in options nearing expiry, however, it is very difficult to see any baby in this
27:13bathwater. In short, a primary regulatory intent
27:19now is to specifically curb only this expiry day frenzy in options trading and
27:27to reduce the systemic risks arising from this.
27:31Five out of the seven proposals of the July 30th consultation paper i.e.
27:37restricting the number of weekly option expiries, increasing margins around
27:42expiry day, removing the benefit of calendar spreads on expiry day,
27:47requiring the monitoring of intraday positions and rationalization of
27:52option strikes are centered around this objective.
28:12Thank you.
28:42Thank you.
29:12Thank you.
29:42Thank you.
30:12Thank you.
30:42Thank you.
31:12Thank you.
31:42Thank you.
32:12Thank you.