On Wednesday, the Senate Banking Committee held a hearing entitled, "Long-Term Economic Benefits and Impacts from Federal Infrastructure and Public Transportation Investment."
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NewsTranscript
00:00:00Thank you all for joining us to our three witnesses whom I'll introduce in a moment.
00:00:04For too long, too many people in Ohio, too many people across the nation thought for
00:00:09good reason that their leaders had given up making our infrastructure, making our manufacturing
00:00:14base the best in the world.
00:00:16Congress's inaction and the empty promises of presidents of both parties left Americans
00:00:23to fend for themselves as they swerved to avoid even bigger potholes, as they bypassed
00:00:28dilapidated bridges, as they dodged chunks of concrete falling from decaying overpasses,
00:00:34as they waited longer and longer for buses that were getting older and older.
00:00:39Americans saw the consequences of years of congressional inaction and presidents' broken
00:00:44promises.
00:00:45And they watched as other countries, our competitors and our adversaries alike, added high-speed
00:00:50rail, built better roads, upgraded their water and sewer, installed 5G networks.
00:00:56Our failing infrastructure was only compounded by a misguided tax and trade policies that
00:01:02shuttered factories in places like Zanesville, places like my hometown of Mansfield and places
00:01:08like Kathy and Mike Knisely's hometown of Lima and Chillicothe and jobs shipped overseas.
00:01:15Last week's hearing, I talked about how our economy and national security interests are
00:01:19interconnected.
00:01:20Ensuring that the United States leads the world in producing semiconductor chips is
00:01:25critical to both our entire economy and our national security.
00:01:29Because of the work of many of the senators on this committee, we passed the Bipartisan
00:01:33Infrastructure Law and the Chips in Science Act.
00:01:37But people don't really care that we passed a bill, that's sort of inside baseball.
00:01:41They care about results.
00:01:42Today, let's look at the results.
00:01:4560,000 infrastructure projects, 60,000 already underway across the country because of the
00:01:50bipartisan infrastructure law.
00:01:53These projects are improving 165,000 miles of roads, 9,400 bridges are getting repaired.
00:02:01Every state is benefiting.
00:02:03The Mobile River Bridge in Alabama is getting improvements.
00:02:07Rural and tribal communities in Minnesota and Iowa and other states are getting new
00:02:10buses and vans.
00:02:11We're making bus and rail stations that were built before the Americans with Disabilities
00:02:16Act finally accessible in places like Philadelphia and Cleveland.
00:02:22Six years ago, Rob Portman and I introduced the Bridge Investment Act to replace or repair
00:02:26the hundreds of bridges in Ohio and thousands around the country that in many cases had
00:02:30not had serious repairs in literally decades.
00:02:34Now because of the years of work we did that culminated in the Bipartisan Infrastructure
00:02:38Law, we're finally, finally building a new Brent Spence companion bridge over the Ohio
00:02:44River.
00:02:45We're replacing the 90-year-old Western Hills Viaduct, crucial to Cincinnati.
00:02:50Brent Spence, for example, a critical link in the supply chain network, transports 160,000
00:02:56cars and trucks and $2 billion in goods every single day.
00:03:00That's 3%, think of that, 3% of the country's entire GDP.
00:03:05It's part of the fabric of the city of Cincinnati, helping to create the vibrancy of one of America's
00:03:09great cities.
00:03:11But Ohioans know Brent Spence is as dated as it is dangerously crowded.
00:03:15We've heard from Ohioans who are concerned about concrete crumbling on the Western Hills
00:03:19Viaduct.
00:03:20We're fixing that.
00:03:21We're seeing new construction across Ohio.
00:03:23It's not just huge projects like Brent Spence and the Intel fabs in Licking County.
00:03:29We're seeing major upgrades to streets and bridges across my state, including Ohio's
00:03:34rural counties in Appalachia.
00:03:36We announced this month the Market Street Bridge, which connects Steubenville with West
00:03:41Virginia.
00:03:42That'll finally be replaced.
00:03:43We're making critical investments to modernize public transit.
00:03:46Ohioans take 21 million trips, 21 million trips on transit every day, and then buses
00:03:52and trains and all the infrastructure required to operate them are not up to date.
00:03:57Slower services, slower services, less reliable.
00:04:01Imagine driving, think about this, imagine driving the same car every day for 40 years.
00:04:06That's what operators on Cleveland's RTA in its 60 cars have been doing for years.
00:04:13The newest of these 60 cars is 40 years old.
00:04:18In Cleveland, I met with workers whose job it is to maintain railcars that date back
00:04:23to the Reagan administration.
00:04:26At the railcar garage that I visited on the east side of Cleveland, you actually see these
00:04:31workers over in the corner machining replacement parts for cars that are sold.
00:04:35They can't find replacement parts, they have to machine the replacement parts to keep these
00:04:41trains running.
00:04:42That's the only way to get the parts, because they don't make them anymore.
00:04:45Now finally, because of the infrastructure law, Cleveland will get 60 new railcars.
00:04:51We know the U.S. lacks a robust national passenger rail network that other major economic powers
00:04:56have.
00:04:57We're changing that.
00:04:58We're seeing construction of new facilities to improve transit and rail service like Akron
00:05:03Metros, its public transit system, its new maintenance facility, and a new Amtrak station
00:05:10in Bryan, Ohio, a small town in the northwest corner of the state.
00:05:14We know how crucial manufacturing and innovation are to our economy.
00:05:17Modern infrastructure today is driven by information technology, the microchips that power our
00:05:23machines and computers are the products of American design and ingenuity.
00:05:28We've become dependent on other countries for their production.
00:05:3290% of the chips we invented are now made overseas.
00:05:36Taiwan is dominant today.
00:05:38Alarmingly, China is trying to become dominant tomorrow.
00:05:40We wrote the Chips and Science Act to change that trajectory.
00:05:44It's allowing us to build a new generation of chip production facilities in Ohio and
00:05:48around the country.
00:05:50These investments are growing our economy.
00:05:52They're creating jobs and opportunity.
00:05:54In the past three years, we've added 670,000 construction jobs, 670,000 construction jobs
00:06:02added to the U.S. economy.
00:06:03Think about that.
00:06:06This is only the start.
00:06:07Hiring is expected to pick up even more in the coming years.
00:06:10More and more projects will get underway.
00:06:11That doesn't even take into account the jobs throughout the manufacturing supply chain
00:06:16because we made sure these laws, again, first ever in the last few years, have the strongest
00:06:22Buy America rules ever.
00:06:24The steel iron pipes and other construction materials are being made in Ohio and across
00:06:28the U.S. by American workers, not as previously imported from China.
00:06:34Pipe fitters, bricklayers, ironworkers, steelworkers, carpenters, machinists are good middle-class
00:06:40jobs with high wages and on-the-job training opportunities where you can develop a craft
00:06:44and build a career.
00:06:45One of the highlights of the last few years for me was I saw Mike Knisley in Columbus.
00:06:54He's the Secretary of Treasury of the Ohio State Building Construction Trades.
00:06:56He represents the men and women who are doing the real work on these projects.
00:07:00I was in an event last summer with Mike in our state's capital, a graduation for a training
00:07:05program that places workers directly into union apprenticeships in the trades, creating
00:07:12opportunity for so many people who haven't had that opportunity before.
00:07:16Every one of these graduates, mostly men and women in their 20s, had on T-shirts that said
00:07:23in big black letters on the back, direct path to the middle class.
00:07:28It's not the opportunities that most of these young people didn't dream of having.
00:07:32It's the jobs.
00:07:33We're creating a direct path to the middle class.
00:07:35It's how you build an economy that upholds the dignity of work.
00:07:39Senator Scott.
00:07:40Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:07:41Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.
00:07:44Thank you for the committee members who are here with us as well.
00:07:48One of the challenges I see on this conversation that we're having today is to realize that
00:07:53local problems need local solutions.
00:07:57It's really hard for folks in Washington, D.C. to understand the transit needs of folks
00:08:03in Charleston, South Carolina, Somerville, South Carolina, Columbus, Ohio, or Chicago,
00:08:08Illinois.
00:08:09The most effective thing that we can do is make sure that the resourcing goes without
00:08:13all the red tape and challenges that comes from Washington, D.C.
00:08:17Getting that done seems to be too close to Peter walking on the water.
00:08:23Really a miraculous occurrence manifestation has to happen for us to just do the simple
00:08:29thing.
00:08:30I spent half my career in politics on the local level, understanding and appreciating
00:08:36transit systems, infrastructure projects, and what it takes to get those things done.
00:08:41When I first became a senator, the one thing I did was I decided that as a kid who grew
00:08:46up in a single-parent household mired in poverty, who understood the transit needs of the poorest
00:08:52Americans trying to get to the job, I wanted to make sure that I was sensitive to the current
00:08:57state of Americans trying to get to work.
00:09:01I decided I'd go back to the old bus routes and get on those bus routes and spend time
00:09:07talking to people waiting on the bus to come.
00:09:10I remember talking to a grandmother who worked at Walmart who wanted to spend more time with
00:09:14her grandkids on the weekends, but she would spend 80 to 90 minutes early in the morning
00:09:20waiting on the bus, seven hours at work, and 80 or 90 minutes to get back home, three
00:09:27hours to work a seven-hour shift or slightly more than minimum wage to provide the resources
00:09:34necessary to help our grandkids have a better life and a better opportunity to experience
00:09:40and enjoy the American dream.
00:09:42Having the conversations with folks who are struggling to make ends meet, thinking about
00:09:47how challenging it is as a local official to understand and then to decide the right
00:09:53transit routes so that the folks who need public transportation have access to the right
00:10:03routes at the right times to get to the right job.
00:10:08You just can't do that from Washington.
00:10:11The one thing Washington has done poorly is to put on more onerous burdens on local
00:10:18government and state government because somehow 535 people in Washington seem to know everything
00:10:26about local needs, and yet we seem to know nothing about getting the job done.
00:10:34As an example, my friends on the left are always looking for a new green steel.
00:10:38They call it the new green deal, but in the end, it steals opportunity, innovation, creativity,
00:10:47and resources from local folks to make good decisions about what they need.
00:10:54But it's not just transit.
00:10:55It's actually the infrastructure needs that are delayed time and time again.
00:11:01I was thinking about this recently.
00:11:04It takes about seven years, seven years for a project to turn the shovel on a new highway
00:11:11program.
00:11:12I was thinking about Highway 17 and its expansion in Mount Pleasant in South Carolina a number
00:11:18of years ago.
00:11:20The frustration I felt as the chairman of the county, waiting for all the red tape to
00:11:25be cut so that we could simply turn the shovel on a project that had been approved for years,
00:11:32I sent some notes to my friends back on county council just to make sure that I was right
00:11:36about the seven-year process.
00:11:38It could take up to two years for the planning and the programming just to meet federal thresholds
00:11:45so that projects can start.
00:11:47And then after you do that, it can take up to three years, whether it's NEPA or other
00:11:52environmental challenges.
00:11:55Throw the green new steel on top of all of that, and you recognize that this owner's
00:12:00burden to start a road project takes seven years.
00:12:05Here's the challenging part.
00:12:07When you get the price of a highway project, let's say those days it was several hundred
00:12:12million dollars, $700 million.
00:12:15It's not anticipated that seven years later, somehow, someway, miraculously, that same
00:12:22road project is going to cost the same amount of money seven years later.
00:12:27That's what we call in South Carolina, ridiculous, hogwash.
00:12:31It just doesn't work that way.
00:12:32But none of that is anticipated in the actual price that people pay, waiting and waiting
00:12:39and waiting for the federal government to just do their jobs and get out of the way.
00:12:45But then after you get through the environmental review and compliance, which is three years
00:12:48later, then you go to the preliminary and final design, up to two more years on this
00:12:57process.
00:12:58And at the same time all of this is happening, currently, under the Biden administration,
00:13:03everybody wants to celebrate the IJA and the IRA, the most ridiculously named bill in maybe
00:13:09American history, the Inflation Reduction Act that actually increases inflation, and
00:13:14the Chips and Science Act.
00:13:15What happens?
00:13:16The cost of construction explodes to the highest level ever.
00:13:22It costs more money to do the same thing than it has ever cost three or four years later.
00:13:29And so when you take a seven-year delay on a road, you take all the impact studies that
00:13:34it takes, we're not smart enough to do them all at the exact same time.
00:13:38We're going to wait for the first two years before we start the environmental impact studies,
00:13:43before we start the design.
00:13:46If this was a business, we would just fire everybody.
00:13:49That's what I would do.
00:13:51That's what I did when I was in business.
00:13:52If you can't, if it takes you seven years to get something started, I want a new, I
00:13:56want someone else in charge.
00:13:59Americans want someone else in charge because the $2 billion problem that they have in Maryland
00:14:05to rebuild a road that's going to have a bridge, that's going to take four years, is ridiculous,
00:14:12unnecessary.
00:14:13All you need is common sense and people ready to go to work.
00:14:18And unfortunately, every time well-intentioned politicians make the decision that we know
00:14:24better than the local community, it costs jobs.
00:14:31It costs prices because they explode.
00:14:35I've got to tell you, 13 years on the local level is a really good education on what not
00:14:43to do.
00:14:45Let's not burden local government with the green new steel, that $7.5 billion in green
00:14:53funding that results in only eight EV charging stations.
00:14:59That takes all those dollars away from being able to have real progress on real roads for
00:15:07real people to get to their jobs.
00:15:10Mr. Chairman, I'm glad we're having the hearing today, but I got to tell you, most Americans
00:15:18would say skip the hearing, block grant the money, and let a brother go to work.
00:15:24That's what they would say.
00:15:27Thank you, Senator Scott.
00:15:29I'll introduce the three witnesses.
00:15:31Pleased to welcome Acting Undersecretary of Transportation for Policy, Christopher Coase.
00:15:37Mr. Coase was previously confirmed by the Senate as the Assistant Secretary for Transportation
00:15:41Policy, worked for many years advocating for safe and reliable transportation that builds
00:15:46better communities.
00:15:47I look forward, Mr. Secretary, to hearing your input.
00:15:50Michael Knisely served as the Executive Secretary and Treasurer of the State Building Instruction
00:15:54Trades Council since 2018.
00:15:57Prior to his current leadership role, Mr. Knisely served as President of the Lima, Ohio
00:16:02Building and Construction Trades Council.
00:16:04He oversees the day-to-day operations of the State Council and supports its 14 individual
00:16:09local councils that comprise 137 trade unions and some 100,000 members.
00:16:16I'd like to welcome Mr. Knisely's family members visiting from Ohio today, his wife, Kathy,
00:16:21from Lima, his sister-in-law and brother-in-law, Jennifer and Brad, from Columbus, and nephews
00:16:25Griffin and Grayson.
00:16:27It's great to have all of you here.
00:16:29First time you've come to a hearing, I think, so welcome.
00:16:32And Mike, I look forward to hearing about the new jobs you're seeing and learning how
00:16:35we're bringing more workers.
00:16:37And I would add that, interestingly, I'm almost certain I will see Mike at the groundbreaking
00:16:43for the Brent Spence Bridge.
00:16:45It was announced by Senator Portman and me, the President of the United States, Senator
00:16:49McConnell, the governors of the two states, it was announced in early January, right
00:16:55around the time Senator Portman left office of 2023, the groundbreaking to build this
00:17:01bridge took, will be in less than two years.
00:17:04So thank you for that, and I assume I will see you at that.
00:17:08Dr. Richard Geddes is the founding director of the Cornell Program in Infrastructure Policy,
00:17:12a non-resident senior fellow with AEI.
00:17:15He previously served as commissioner of National Safe Surface Transportation Policy and Revenue
00:17:21Study Commission.
00:17:22Thank you for being here.
00:17:23Mr. Secretary, would you begin?
00:17:26Good morning, Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Scott, members of the committee.
00:17:33Thank you for this opportunity to testify today and for your leadership and partnership
00:17:37as we work to deliver projects to build a stronger, safer transportation system that
00:17:42connects American people to jobs, to housing, and to one another.
00:17:47DOT has been working tirelessly executing the vision of the Infrastructure Investment
00:17:52and Jobs Act.
00:17:54Because of this generational investment, the Biden-Harris administration has announced
00:17:57$461 billion of rewards, funding over 60,000 specific projects in all 50 states, District
00:18:05of Columbia, territories, and for tribes.
00:18:08As I've traveled across the country, I can tell you these headlines don't come close
00:18:12to telling the full story about EGIA's significance.
00:18:15Nationally, 47% of the U.S. population spends more than 15% of their annual income on transportation.
00:18:23EGIA isn't just an investment in infrastructure.
00:18:26It's an investment in our economy, in our workforce, and in our nation's household budgets.
00:18:32EGIA is allowing us right now to invest over $91 billion into restoring and upgrading our
00:18:37nation's transit service, creating thousands of new jobs, and expanding affordable access
00:18:43to even more.
00:18:45Bringing transportation, jobs, and housing closer together improves access while also
00:18:50supporting local and regional economic development.
00:18:55In April, FTA announced the award of nearly $18 million to 20 projects in 16 states and
00:19:03transit-oriented development funds to support local economic development efforts to improve
00:19:07access and increase affordable housing production near transit.
00:19:12It's also critical that transit is available to everyone, regardless of their ability.
00:19:19That's why the All Stations Accessibility Program is so important, allowing us to upgrade
00:19:23and modernize legacy transit stations built before the Americans with Disabilities Act
00:19:28of 1990.
00:19:30Last month, we saw the groundbreaking for the first project to reach construction on
00:19:35this program, an upgrade to six transit stations in Philadelphia that would make them fully
00:19:40accessible and provide greater access to everyday destinations.
00:19:45We're also investing in projects to reconnect communities, including through the Reconnect
00:19:49Communities and Neighborhoods Program.
00:19:52For example, in Columbus, Ohio, we're funding the development of a bus rapid transit corridor
00:19:57along the West Broad Street, which currently divides disadvantaged communities and is one
00:20:02of the most dangerous roadways in Ohio.
00:20:05Once completed, we expect the development of this BRT system will result in more affordable
00:20:10transit station options, fewer pedestrian deaths, and greater private investment along
00:20:16that corridor.
00:20:18This project is just one example of how transit investments are helping transform disadvantaged
00:20:23communities into thriving ones.
00:20:25More broadly, we are exceeding our Justice 40 Comfort Programs goal with 55% of our benefits
00:20:32going to disadvantaged communities, particularly rural and tribal.
00:20:37For example, at the border of Montana and Idaho, we're funding the rehabilitation of
00:20:42a critical segment of the Interstate 90 to enable it to better withstand increased harsh
00:20:47weather events and make it safer and more reliable for travelers and vulnerable populations
00:20:53nearby.
00:20:54We're also replacing rural bridges in South Carolina that are disrupting vital farm-to-market
00:20:59and commercial freight routes with existing load restrictions due to their age and condition.
00:21:05In March, we experienced a painful reminder of the criticality of our nation's bridges
00:21:10to our daily lives and to our economy when the Francis Scott Key Bridge in Baltimore
00:21:15collapsed after being struck by a container ship.
00:21:18We all worked rapidly with multiple partners to reopen the Federal Channel and the Port
00:21:23of Baltimore in less than 100 days, and we continue to work with them to rebuild the
00:21:28Key Bridge.
00:21:29But even before that incident, we've been working with communities across the country
00:21:32to rehab and replace aging critical bridges.
00:21:36And that is why, earlier this month, DOT awarded over $5 billion to 13 large bridges, including
00:21:42$250 million for the I-95 Bridge over Lake Marion in South Carolina, $550 million for
00:21:50the I-10 Mobile River Project in Alabama, and $251 million to repair a cluster of bridges
00:21:56on I-95 in Rhode Island.
00:21:59These projects would join so many projects that are already underway.
00:22:03For instance, we expect construction to begin soon on the Brent Spence Bridge, which carries
00:22:07over $400 billion in freight each year over the Ohio River.
00:22:12We are excited to see some of the earliest EJIT investments to break ground and begin
00:22:16construction and start to deliver benefits.
00:22:19We are doing everything in our part to accelerate projects, including setting up a new Project
00:22:24Delivery Center of Excellence, streamlining our NOFOs, and providing technical assistance
00:22:29to rural and tribal communities.
00:22:31On behalf of Secretary Buttigieg and the entire Department, we appreciate the partnership
00:22:36and the shared commitment on delivering a world-class transportation system for the
00:22:40American people.
00:22:41Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
00:22:43Thank you, Mr. Knisely.
00:22:44Welcome.
00:22:46Good morning, Chairman Brown, Ranking Member Scott, and members of the Committee.
00:22:52Thank you for your leadership on building a resilient economy for American workers and
00:22:56the communities through federal investment.
00:22:59My name is Mike Knisely.
00:23:00I am here to testify on the impact that federal investments are having on the 100,000 men
00:23:04and women that I represent as the Executive Secretary-Treasurer of the Ohio State Building
00:23:09and Construction Trades Council.
00:23:11In our nearly 60 years as the Building Trades Council, there has never been a brighter future
00:23:14for tradespeople who build Ohio.
00:23:17Ohio owes this bright future to smart public-private investment led by strong bipartisan leadership
00:23:23in Congress.
00:23:24And we're building big in Ohio.
00:23:26Over the next decade, we're looking at over $200 billion in construction projects that
00:23:30will create generational careers that provide prevailing wages with health care and retirement
00:23:35benefits as well as tuition-free paid apprenticeship training for both present and future tradespeople.
00:23:42The Bipartisan Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act means that thousands of tradespeople
00:23:46in southern Ohio and northern Kentucky will build the Brent Spence Bridge.
00:23:50This bridge, which besides being long overdue, is a vital transportation corridor for our
00:23:55region and will be built by a diverse generation of construction workers, including tradeswomen
00:24:01like Saria Gwynne May of Ironworkers Local 44.
00:24:05The Chips and Science Act means that nearly 10,000 construction tradespeople will build
00:24:09Intel's new semiconductor fabs in Columbus, Ohio.
00:24:13This project is creating family-sustaining construction jobs across the central Ohio
00:24:17region, but also in Ohio's Appalachian communities where the residents can see opportunity on
00:24:23the horizon again.
00:24:25There's excitement in the air in places like IBW 1105's Training Electrical Center, where
00:24:30a whole new generation of tradespeople will begin their apprenticeships on the Intel project,
00:24:35including having the potential to work their entire career at that facility, upgrading
00:24:40and maintaining the fabs.
00:24:42Imagine that – lifelong family-sustaining construction careers within commuting distance
00:24:48of Ohio's counties.
00:24:50This type of investment has the potential to deliver lasting recovery in Ohio's struggling
00:24:55towns.
00:24:56Statewide, the Ohio building trades have scaled up their workforce development to meet the
00:25:00demand driven by these investments.
00:25:03Across Ohio, our 80 privately funded apprenticeship training centers are taking in their largest
00:25:07classes ever.
00:25:09The building trades model is the gold standard in workforce development, where they train
00:25:13over 80% of all construction apprentices in Ohio, and I must put on this with zero tax
00:25:19dollars.
00:25:20The continued high road investment in construction projects generate the steady demand of apprentices
00:25:24needed for the next generation of local tradespeople.
00:25:28Underinvestment in our nation's infrastructure over the past 30 years has hurt economic growth
00:25:33in the communities where our members live and work.
00:25:36But now, with the new infrastructure investment in places like my hometown of Lima, Ohio,
00:25:41good paying construction jobs are on the rise, creating an environment where young people
00:25:44do not have to leave the Buckeye State to support their families.
00:25:48The Ohio Building Trades believes that the rising tide of economic opportunity must be
00:25:53within reach for all Ohioans, including women, people of color, and veterans.
00:25:59Thanks to our partners in industry and at every level of government whose commitment
00:26:02to responsible contracting and sustainable jobs means that Ohio's rising economic tide
00:26:07reaches working families in Ohio.
00:26:10Our commitment to our partners is this, we will get the job done.
00:26:14We ask that you match our commitment by ensuring that federally funded construction jobs go
00:26:19to American tradespeople.
00:26:20These jobs must provide benefits to working families in our communities, and despite the
00:26:25heavy workforce demand in certain regions across our state, there are still depressed
00:26:29areas that have local tradespeople being displaced by companies that hire workers without
00:26:34the proper documentation to work well below the required prevailing wage and without any
00:26:39benefits.
00:26:41Properly executed, each new project built through federal investment strengthens Ohio's
00:26:45construction workforce by growing our communities through local wages and benefits for working
00:26:49families.
00:26:50And you can take the Building Trades commitment to equal economic opportunity to the bank.
00:26:55Our journey people and apprentices are protected by collective bargaining agreements, CBAs
00:27:00are the great equalizer in wages, health care, and retirement equity on every job site, and
00:27:04they guarantee that each worker, regardless of race or gender, earns dollar for dollar
00:27:08the same pay and benefits as everyone else.
00:27:11When Ohio's Building Trades people are bringing home a steady paycheck from major projects,
00:27:15their entire communities feel the economic benefits of those earnings.
00:27:19And thanks to federal investment, these are the working Ohioans who someday will drive
00:27:23past factories like Intel or across the Brent Spence Bridge and say to their children and
00:27:28grandchildren, I built that.
00:27:30Thank you for allowing me to voice economic stability and hope for the future of thousands
00:27:34of Ohio Building Trades people and a new generation of Ohio construction apprentices that have
00:27:40thanks to these federal investments in American workers.
00:27:42I'm going to end with my final comment.
00:27:45Good infrastructure investment policies that come out of Washington create great outcomes
00:27:49in your local communities.
00:27:51Thank you, Chairman Brown.
00:27:52Ranking Member Scott.
00:27:53Thank you, Mr. Knisely.
00:27:55Almost every day, I drive over Interstate 480 through Cleveland and, you know, bridges
00:28:03and buildings are often named after politicians.
00:28:05Well, this bridge is called the Union Workers Bridge, as it should be.
00:28:10And as you know, Building Trades workers often saw a few lose their lives on these projects,
00:28:16these dangerous projects that matter so much for our country.
00:28:20Dr. Gattis, thank you.
00:28:21Welcome.
00:28:22Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:28:24Thank you, Ranking Member Scott and members of the committee.
00:28:28Thank you for the opportunity to testify.
00:28:31In addition to your kind introduction, I'm Rick Gettys, an academic director and founder
00:28:36of the Cornell Program in Infrastructure Policy, also a professor in the relatively new Jeb
00:28:40Brooks School of Public Policy at Cornell, as well as a professor of economics at Cornell.
00:28:47So I'll proceed with that.
00:28:50Approximately two years ago, to take a step back, Congress passed the bipartisan infrastructure
00:28:54law, the Chips and Science Act, and the Inflation Reduction Act within the span of about nine
00:28:59months.
00:29:00Together, those acts constitute the largest federal action on infrastructure since the
00:29:05National Interstate and Defense Highways Act of 1956, which created our interstate highway
00:29:11system.
00:29:12Those legislative acts are important in strengthening our country's infrastructure and addressing
00:29:17endemic problems, such as a large backlog of deferred maintenance, as well as creating
00:29:22a lot of new important projects.
00:29:24The actual impact of the acts on U.S. infrastructure to date, however, has been a bit less than
00:29:29expected for several reasons.
00:29:31First, inflation has been persistent since the acts were passed, particularly in the
00:29:36materials and labor needed to deliver much infrastructure, as I detail in my written
00:29:41testimony.
00:29:42Second, to Senator Scott's point, environmental permitting under the National Environmental
00:29:46Policy Act of 1970, or NEPA, remains cumbersome.
00:29:50As I and co-authors report in a 2023 article, a typical environmental impact statement,
00:29:56or EIS, under NEPA now takes about four and a half years to complete and is over 600 pages
00:30:02long.
00:30:03Some EISs take more than a decade to complete.
00:30:06In an economic sector where time really is money, long schedules can significantly increase
00:30:12project costs.
00:30:14Putting reforms in place in several other countries can be instructive as excellent
00:30:18models for the U.S. to implement, as I detail in my testimony.
00:30:23Third, provisions of the Build America, Buy America Act, or BABA, are inhibiting project
00:30:29delivery.
00:30:30We understand the motivation behind it, but they contribute to confusion amongst contractors
00:30:34and project developers.
00:30:36With the tighter BABA requirements, even minor products must be produced by U.S. companies
00:30:41to qualify for available federal incentives.
00:30:44Those items, however, are often not available or are more expensive than the imported versions,
00:30:49adding to costs and time delays.
00:30:51Ensuring crystal clear guidance regarding waivers under BABA is a key step, or could
00:30:56be a key step, in facilitating more efficient project delivery.
00:31:01There are, however, solid reasons for optimism in the infrastructure outlook.
00:31:06I believe we now have an opportunity for the private sector to take a larger role in
00:31:11financing U.S. infrastructure beyond that currently provided by the federal government.
00:31:17The Bill Act took steps to encourage greater private participation by increasing the national
00:31:23limit on private activity bonds, or PABs, for qualified projects from a $15 billion
00:31:28cap to a $30 billion cap.
00:31:31So the spirit of the law was there, but more can be done.
00:31:35These arrangements that encourage public and private cooperation can bring American
00:31:39infrastructure delivery up to global standards through better cooperation.
00:31:44The core of such cooperation is a long-term contract between the public and private sectors
00:31:50broadly known as a public-private partnership, or PPP.
00:31:54Those contracts are helpful, particularly for addressing deferred maintenance, in that
00:31:58they typically bundle or wrap the design and construction of a major infrastructure facility
00:32:03together with the operation, or O&M, over the long term, such as 25 or 30 years.
00:32:08And that can include provisions to ensure proper maintenance.
00:32:12A properly structured P3 contract puts more of the risk of the time and cost overruns
00:32:16on the private partner, rather than on the taxpayer.
00:32:20Such contracts can also include future proofing.
00:32:23Future proofing refers to the risk of not adopting available innovative technologies
00:32:28well into the future.
00:32:30A future proof contract places that risk on the private partner, thus ensuring that
00:32:35private capital, incentives, and expertise are deployed to make U.S. infrastructure as
00:32:40resilient as possible for decades to come.
00:32:44I believe Congress can take further steps to facilitate greater P3 use in the United
00:32:49States, which is behind every other developed country I know, by the way, in P3s.
00:32:54One is to encourage states and regions to utilize PPP units, which are quasi-governmental
00:32:58entities that assist the public sector in undertaking PPPs.
00:33:03Such units are well established around the world, including Australia, Canada, China,
00:33:07Egypt, India, Israel, Japan, and the United Kingdom, among many other countries.
00:33:13I believe that with several key policy changes that I've described here, infrastructure projects
00:33:19can deliver long-term benefits and returns for all parties.
00:33:23Thank you very much for the opportunity to testify, and I look forward to your questions.
00:33:27Thank you, Dr. Geddes.
00:33:28Mr. Knisely, to start with you, for decades we've seen corporations follow the business
00:33:33model that pursued growth by closing factories, shipping jobs south and then overseas, always
00:33:40in search of cheaper wages.
00:33:42It's devastated the hometowns of each of us, of Lima and Mansfield.
00:33:46We passed a bipartisan infrastructure law in part to create the types of jobs that corporations
00:33:51can't outsource.
00:33:52The number of construction workers in Ohio is at a 24-year high and growing every week.
00:33:59You note that when people bring home a steady paycheck, the entire community feels the benefit.
00:34:03I love what you say about generational careers.
00:34:06Talk about how these projects create the kind of construction jobs that lead to these generational
00:34:12careers.
00:34:15If we could talk about the CHIPS Act, can we talk about that, Senator?
00:34:19Sure, of course.
00:34:20The Intel factory, I worked intimately with the company as soon as the announcement was
00:34:26made in Newark, Ohio, in late January of 2022.
00:34:30My job here in Ohio is to keep our 100,000 members to work every day through policies
00:34:37and some politics with this, but also by working with the owners on this.
00:34:42In the span of three months, myself and a small delegation went to Phoenix, Arizona,
00:34:48the Ocotillo campus for Intel, to Portland, Oregon at the Hillsborough campus, and also
00:34:53to Albuquerque at the Rio Rancho campus.
00:34:56We did tour the factory and we saw the scale of what this does for not only construction
00:35:02workers, but what it does for the American public, reducing inflation, and for our defense,
00:35:08making sure that these CHIPS are done here in the United States.
00:35:11One thing that I found interesting by talking to the local workers there, and some of them
00:35:17had worked their entire careers, it was in my statement earlier.
00:35:20Because of the commitment from companies like Intel that are not only innovative, but they're
00:35:26also changing their technology to stay competitive in that ultra-competitive market, it made
00:35:32a generational career for the pipe fitter, or the electrician, or the sheet metal worker
00:35:38that was in that local community.
00:35:40Some of them actually had three generations on that project due to this generational change
00:35:46that we're going to see the same thing in Columbus, Ohio.
00:35:50Because of the CHIPS Act, that has now created that same dynamic in Columbus.
00:35:55We're building the project right now, but we know that right after, they call it phase
00:36:00one, which is two fabs, the CHIPS and Science Act actually created the opportunity for three
00:36:05more phases, or another $80 billion in investment in the central Ohio region.
00:36:10We know that that will now create that same model that we saw in the three other regions
00:36:14across the United States.
00:36:16Thank you, and we have talked a number of times, Mr. Knisely, about the federal government
00:36:23helping to support workers, especially young people considering entering the trade.
00:36:28So I may ask you another question on the record later about that in writing, just because
00:36:32of time.
00:36:33Mr. Coase, before we passed the bipartisan infrastructure law, big projects moved slowly
00:36:39or didn't move at all.
00:36:40We had seemingly forgotten how to build things in this country.
00:36:44That's why Senator Portman and I bipartisanly worked on this so much in Ohio, because we
00:36:48knew that it would actually result in speeding things up and making things happen.
00:36:53I want to talk to you about, briefly, Cleveland, the city's next transformational project is
00:36:57connecting downtown Cleveland to Lake Erie, because of a large freeway and railroad tracks,
00:37:03and we know what interstate construction did, dividing communities, often communities of
00:37:08color.
00:37:10Because of that large freeway, because of railroad tracks, generations of Clevelanders
00:37:14have grown up near the lake, but unable to access the lake.
00:37:19This project will help change that if DOT's current competitive grant programs don't continue.
00:37:24What happens to the transformational projects, like in one of our America's great cities
00:37:29like Cleveland's, that our cities, counties, and states are developing?
00:37:34The short answer is those projects sit on the shelf.
00:37:37These grants provide not only capacity to local governments to partner with private
00:37:41sector, I know that particular project is working with Bedrock and so many other private
00:37:45sector interests, to think about how to do transformational projects.
00:37:49In addition to that, that means less people able to get jobs through these programs.
00:37:53We've seen already through the bipartisan interest law how discretionary grants are
00:37:57taking these mega complex projects, like the Brent Spence Bridge, from actually vision
00:38:02to actually execution.
00:38:03We are really excited that we're about to break ground on the Brent Spence fairly soon.
00:38:08More importantly, it demonstrates that within the Department of Transportation, we have
00:38:11the capacity to take local ideas, even for big projects, and actually get them approved
00:38:16through our NEPA process in a timely fashion, at the same time getting dollars to the ground
00:38:20to get more workers on those projects.
00:38:23Connie and I live maybe five or six miles from Lake Erie.
00:38:29Those not exposed that aren't lucky enough to live nearby the greatest body of fresh
00:38:34water in the world, which the Great Lakes is, might not see how important access to
00:38:41that lake is.
00:38:42For far too many families, there are train tracks, there are highways that keep them
00:38:47from having access to that lake for recreation, for all kinds of opportunities.
00:38:53Your continuing on that is really important.
00:38:55I just want to make one statement in response to Dr. Geddesen.
00:38:57Sorry, this won't be a question, but I just wanted to thank you again for your testimony
00:39:01on how important it is to strengthen up data infrastructure.
00:39:05Your testimony pointed out concerns about expanded Buy America requirements.
00:39:09They must be clear.
00:39:10I agree with you about that.
00:39:12Buy America policy represents a simple choice of the iron, steel, and materials used in
00:39:16federal infrastructure projects in Ohio and South Carolina, made there as it made in China.
00:39:22I think it's pretty clear what the American people want if we're spending taxpayer dollars
00:39:27on infrastructure.
00:39:29I think the steel and pipe we use needs to be made in the United States.
00:39:33Thank you, all three of you.
00:39:34Senator Scott.
00:39:36I was talking in my opening statement, opening comments about the fact that the impact of
00:39:45inflation has driven the cost of construction to the highest levels we've seen in the shortest
00:39:53period of time.
00:39:54I think about the Inflation Reduction Act that some continue to celebrate as somehow
00:40:00mitigating the impact on our country of inflation, still, to me, a bit backwards.
00:40:08One program within that IRA is the Greenhouse Gas Fund that has to get $27 billion out the
00:40:17door by September the 30th.
00:40:21The way I look at it, Dr. Geddes, an economist, you rush $30 billion, $27 billion out of the
00:40:31door in an already hot, over-artificially stimulated economy, chances of it having a
00:40:40negative impact within the construction industry, I think, is pretty high, personally.
00:40:44I think the fact of the matter is that the COVID relief package, first bill passed by
00:40:49the Democrats, $1.9 trillion, the Inflation Reduction Act, the IIJA, the CHIPS Act, those
00:40:56resources flooding into the economy, some of it, not all of it, immediately, only helped
00:41:02impact the inflation that the average American has been feeling.
00:41:06So from the macroeconomy perspective, the loss of spending power of the average American
00:41:12is around $28,000 cumulative over the last three years, three and a half years.
00:41:18Can you please speak, Dr. Geddes, to the inflationary impacts regarding infrastructure
00:41:22specifically and its development because of the inflationary environment that we find
00:41:27ourselves in today?
00:41:29Yeah.
00:41:30Thank you, Senator.
00:41:31I think it's two ways of approaching that.
00:41:34One would be from the macroeconomic theory that you mentioned, and you're stimulating
00:41:39demand in a highly supply-constrained environment.
00:41:43And the theory implies that that is going to be inflationary.
00:41:46On the sort of empirical or statistical side, it's difficult to tease out the effects of
00:41:52a particular program on the overall inflation rate.
00:41:56But I think it's worth noting, maybe emphasizing a part of my testimony to your original statement
00:42:00about how inflation in this sector, in the heavy civil construction sector, is higher.
00:42:07There's a block quote that I have from The Economist in November 2023 that says, the
00:42:11problem is that inflation has been rampant in the construction sector, making delays
00:42:15that much more pernicious.
00:42:17The single biggest component of the infrastructure package was a 50% increase in funding for
00:42:22highways to $350 billion over five years.
00:42:26But highway construction costs soared by more than 50% from the end of 2020 to the start
00:42:31of 2023, in effect, wiping out that extra funding.
00:42:35So the purchasing power effects are being diminished or wiped out by the added spending
00:42:41or added inflation.
00:42:42I added some more up-to-date numbers on concrete costs and so forth.
00:42:50And it's still higher than the Consumer Price Index.
00:42:53I'm going to ask you a question about NEPA, but before I go there, I want to once again
00:42:56highlight programs that the government continues to provide resources for, but they never actually
00:43:01spend the resources that they provide.
00:43:04As an example, back in 2021, Congress approved $42 billion to help connect more Americans
00:43:10to the internet, basically.
00:43:12I'm looking at a tweet that I saw and found.
00:43:16At this point, it had been 987 days since the plan was enacted and zero Americans had
00:43:23been connected.
00:43:24Zero shovels worth of dirt had been turned, even though there had been $42 billion set
00:43:32aside for programs to help connect Americans.
00:43:35The challenge, of course, the government rewards itself based on its intentions, not based
00:43:43on the actions that follow those intentions.
00:43:46You mentioned the cumbersome process that NEPA creates for getting shovel-ready projects
00:43:55started.
00:43:56Would you expound for the rest of my time that I have?
00:44:01Sure.
00:44:03NEPA had, again, very good intentions.
00:44:06I believe when it was passed in 1970, it's grown over time.
00:44:09It's sort of a whole lot of things going on.
00:44:13A web of confusion.
00:44:16In NEPA, it's grown administratively, and it's now become an extremely serious barrier
00:44:22to rapid project delivery.
00:44:25We're seeing that kind of in green projects where there's environmental groups that would
00:44:28like those projects to get out quickly, but then they sort of run headlong into this
00:44:32cumbersome NEPA process.
00:44:35I think it's time for reform.
00:44:37I should probably highlight this study that I have here that came out in the past few
00:44:41weeks by one of my heroes, Bob Poole, at the Reason Foundation, surveyed other countries
00:44:46and how they do their NEPA processes.
00:44:48Just to highlight, I could go, we don't have time, but I could go across countries.
00:44:53Australia has sort of a one-stop shop for its environmental review and permitting process
00:44:57called the Department of Climate Change, Energy and the Environment, and Water.
00:45:01They have strict time limits on how quickly their reviews of environmental permitting
00:45:07processes have to go, like 20 days for the first stage, 30 for the second.
00:45:12It is really a time-constrained process that still respects the desire to preserve the
00:45:18environment as Australians do, but it doesn't have to be as long as it is in the United States.
00:45:25As we know, Senator, time really is money and infrastructure.
00:45:28If you delay a project, it always goes up in cost.
00:45:32Last point, and I'm running out of time here.
00:45:35I'd love for us to, I'll submit it for the record, questions about the public-private
00:45:40partnerships that actually reduces costs, extends long-term maintenance, and puts part
00:45:46of the onus on the private sector.
00:45:51Senator Reid of Rhode Island is recognized.
00:45:53Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
00:45:55Thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony.
00:45:58Under Secretary Coats, we are seeing a lot of activity in Rhode Island.
00:46:04In fact, we recently had a call from Secretary Buttigieg informing us we received $251 million
00:46:12for a large bridge grant, which will access 15 high-need bridges along Route 195.
00:46:21We're also seeing people working, and working at very, very good wages.
00:46:31This is, I think, a good program for Middle American workers and also for overdue infrastructure.
00:46:38Our infrastructure was way overdue.
00:46:41Could you tell us generally how this project is improving infrastructure all throughout
00:46:47the country?
00:46:49Thank you, Senator.
00:46:50You're absolutely right.
00:46:51We just, this past month, announced one of our big bridge improvement programs that is
00:46:57actually addressing some of the critical needs that we're seeing in bridges across the country
00:47:01that are in state of good repair.
00:47:04We believe these investments would not have happened without the bipartisan infrastructure
00:47:08law.
00:47:09These investments are not only allowing us to hire workers from neighborhoods, but also
00:47:14allowing us to ensure freight resiliency and also allowing everyday Americans to ensure
00:47:18that they can get home safely.
00:47:20We are also seeing that private sector are also looking at other projects working in
00:47:26tandem with local governments.
00:47:27For example, we are very close to doing a major groundbreaking with the Brightline West
00:47:31high-speed rail, which again would not have happened without the bipartisan infrastructure
00:47:35law.
00:47:36Those are just two examples of how working in tandem, these investments are really being
00:47:40transformative in communities.
00:47:43All of this work makes transportation more efficient, I presume.
00:47:49And second, it also is matched many times by private development, either directly in
00:47:56the project or very near the project since the highways are opened up and it's more flexibility
00:48:03and more opportunities.
00:48:04Is that accurate?
00:48:05That is absolutely true.
00:48:07As noted, in addition to the bipartisan infrastructure law, we're seeing major investments through
00:48:11the CHIPS program, where we're seeing major private sector investments for new chip manufacturing
00:48:16as well as EV manufacturing, locating near these new improved infrastructure assets.
00:48:21And Mr. Kinsey, how is this helping workers in the industry?
00:48:30Senator Reid, workers are benefiting from all the legislation over the past couple of
00:48:35years that came out of Washington.
00:48:39When you look at infrastructure, that's a little bit longer term maybe than what you
00:48:43would see with an EV plant or even the CHIPS side.
00:48:48But what you're creating in a time with demographics are working against all of us and including
00:48:52the construction industry, it's created generational change for generational careers for young
00:48:59people.
00:49:00And I don't think they've seen that type of optimism come out for quite some time.
00:49:05I can't overstate the fact, and it was in my final comments, that the good policies
00:49:11come out of D.C. create great outcomes in every local community.
00:49:13It just does, whether you're putting from the transportation side new blacktop coming
00:49:18down or for a long-term 30-plus generational career at a CHIPS manufacturing plant.
00:49:25We anticipate our growth in the state of Ohio, even factoring in attrition with retirements
00:49:31and deaths, to move from 100,000 men and women that put a hard hat on and work in
00:49:35union construction every day in Ohio to somewhere between 115,000 and 125,000 over the next
00:49:43generation for this.
00:49:46And Secretary Coats, I could not leave here without mentioning the Washington Bridge,
00:49:53which I'm sure you've heard of, a section of 195 that goes between Providence and East
00:49:59Providence, essentially the metropolitan area of Providence.
00:50:04The eastward-bound bridge collapsed, or had to be closed before it would collapse.
00:50:10And we are seeking any support for efforts to repair it.
00:50:15But it brings up the question of the mega-grant program and also the large-bridge grant program.
00:50:22And they have been helping states really in a significant way.
00:50:28We hope it will help Rhode Island eventually.
00:50:30But can you comment on the role these programs have played?
00:50:34Senator, first, I want to acknowledge, yes, we are aware of the application and we'll
00:50:38definitely give it due consideration.
00:50:40And again, we'll continue to provide technical assistance to the project sponsor as we go
00:50:43through this process.
00:50:45But you're absolutely right to call out that the mega-program specifically, as well as
00:50:48a number of our major discretionary grants, allows us to move major complex projects faster.
00:50:55If we did not have these resources, many of these projects would take more time, which
00:50:59means they would cost more money, but more important, the benefits, whether it's reducing
00:51:03air pollution, greater accessibility, again, safety, whether it's from the freight corridors
00:51:08but also to passengers, would not happen.
00:51:11That's why these investments are so critical today.
00:51:13Thank you very much.
00:51:14Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:51:15Thanks, Senator Reid.
00:51:16Senator Van Hollen of Maryland is recognized.
00:51:19Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:51:20Thank all of you for your testimony here today.
00:51:23Secretary Coats, I want to start with some thank yous to President Biden, Secretary Buttigieg,
00:51:27and to yourself on the really great, fast federal response to the collapse of the Key
00:51:35Bridge, a huge tragedy, of course, for Baltimore City, our state, and had national implications.
00:51:44We're grateful for the fact that we were quickly enrolled in the Emergency Relief Program,
00:51:48the $60 million for traffic mitigation, and of course, other federal agencies that helped
00:51:55clear the channel and open the port.
00:51:58But obviously, now we want to move forward with the reconstruction and are really pleased
00:52:04to see the President's disaster supplemental that includes $3.2 billion for the Emergency
00:52:12Relief Program.
00:52:14We look forward to working with you on that to try to make sure we get it through the
00:52:19Congress just as quickly as possible.
00:52:21I will say that if that had also been a transit route over the bridge, it obviously would
00:52:27have been even a bigger catastrophe in terms of transportation.
00:52:31So I do think we need to be looking in Congress at an Emergency Relief Program that applies
00:52:37not just to bridges and other transportation roads, but also to transit.
00:52:45Another thing I just wanted to flag is I've been working on the Moving Transit Forward
00:52:49Act with Senator Fetterman, which would address some of the operational sides of the expenses
00:52:56and costs for states.
00:52:58I know your budget, as you proposed it, allows NETRO systems around the country to use their
00:53:04funds for either operations or capital, and I think that's a good direction to go, and
00:53:10we want to build on that.
00:53:13Thank you also for attending a gathering earlier this or last year, I think, with Governor
00:53:22Moore, Senator Cardin, and myself, Congressman Nafume, on the red line.
00:53:27And obviously, the bipartisan infrastructure bill has been mentioned a couple times this
00:53:32morning, but I just want to remind you, and I know you're aware of it, that that bill
00:53:38has a provision in it, and I'm quoting from that bill, the Secretary shall provide full
00:53:43and fair consideration to projects that seek an updated rating after a period of inactivity
00:53:50following an earlier rating and evaluation, end quote from the statute.
00:53:56So would you agree that the previous work done by MDOT and FTA in support of the Baltimore
00:54:03red line project should not be wasted, and that once submitted to FTA, the red line project
00:54:10should be able to receive a rating more quickly, given all the previous work that had been
00:54:14done?
00:54:15Senator, I will just say, as I said previously when we were together in Baltimore, you have
00:54:20my commitment to working with the state and Baltimore to get this project across the finish
00:54:25line.
00:54:26And yes, we do agree that the information and effort that had been previously done should
00:54:31be part of the process, and that's why I'm pleased to say that even as of today, FTA
00:54:34is working closely with the state and the transit agency to do that, just that.
00:54:39So we hope that in near term, we'll have something more positive to say.
00:54:42No, I appreciate that.
00:54:44Just for my colleague's benefit, our previous governor pulled the plug on the Baltimore
00:54:49city red line after it had already gone through all the reviews and approval.
00:54:55Essentially, Maryland sent close to a billion dollars to the rest of the country.
00:55:00But as part of the infrastructure bill, we included this language, and under the current
00:55:07governor, Governor Moore, and the city, we're all moving together to get the red line on
00:55:12track, literally.
00:55:15I'd just like to also ask you, Secretary Coats, about some of the transportation safety issues.
00:55:21We had included in the infrastructure modernization bill provisions from a bill that I'd introduced
00:55:28that deal with transit safety, establishing these safety committees to identify safety
00:55:34risks, and I understand that the department and the FDA are close to finalizing a general
00:55:41directive to transit agencies to address specifically assaults on transit workers.
00:55:46That's a piece of this overall safety plan.
00:55:51Action on these issues cannot come fast enough.
00:55:54Last year, when we had this hearing, I actually had a witness from the Baltimore Transit Union,
00:56:00and that morning, he'd been in the hospital with a transit worker who'd been assaulted,
00:56:06stabbed.
00:56:07What is the timeline for finalizing the general directive and additional rulemakings to protect
00:56:13workers and riders from assault?
00:56:16Senator, as you know, immediately after the enactment of the bipartisan infrastructure
00:56:20law, the FDA sent out immediately a dear colleague letter to every transit agency, letting them
00:56:25know that they need to send up their own safety committees.
00:56:28Since then, I can tell you 100% of the transit agencies are in compliance.
00:56:32In addition, as you mentioned, we have put out a draft general directive.
00:56:38We've now received those comments.
00:56:39We are hoping in the next couple months that we'll be able to finalize those comments and
00:56:42go out publicly with the final directive.
00:56:45I appreciate that.
00:56:46Thank you, and I may have some follow-up questions for the record, but thank you.
00:56:49Thank you all.
00:56:50Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:56:51Senator Van Hollen, Senator Smith of Minnesota.
00:56:54Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome to all of you.
00:56:56Thanks so much for joining us today.
00:56:59I want to focus my questions to you, Mr. Coase, and I'm going to focus for a minute
00:57:05on rural transit.
00:57:06I chair the transit subcommittee, and I also represent a state with large communities of
00:57:13many communities and rural places and small towns.
00:57:16I know that mostly when we talk about transit, as my good friend from Maryland is, we think
00:57:22about what goes on in big cities.
00:57:23We think about big buses and trains, but of course we know there's an incredibly important
00:57:28network of rural transit agencies across the country, including in Minnesota.
00:57:33We also know that the bipartisan infrastructure law puts significant new resources into rural
00:57:38transit and increased funding for programs like bus grants and low and no grants that
00:57:44really benefit rural agencies as well.
00:57:47Minnesota has received two of these grants from the FTA for rural transit, one for SMART,
00:57:52which is based in Austin, Minnesota, to build two new transit facilities and one for UCAP
00:57:59and Friendly Rider Transit to buy propane buses and then install the fueling infrastructure
00:58:05that they need.
00:58:06I think that one of the best things about the bipartisan infrastructure and jobs act
00:58:11is that it is lifting up all of these communities, including rural communities that often have
00:58:17many people who rely on transit to get around.
00:58:21Would you just give us at a high level what your view is of how the Biden infrastructure
00:58:28law has really supported rural transit around the country?
00:58:32Senator, thank you for that question and also your leadership on this topic.
00:58:37As someone who grew up in rural southwest Georgia with a mother who was disabled, I
00:58:43know firsthand the importance of rural transit.
00:58:46Being able to get an elderly grandmother to a doctor's appointment or just be able
00:58:51to take a father to a veteran's hospital without having a car, rural transit was a lifeline.
00:58:57So I can tell you, because of the bipartisan infrastructure law, we've now seen historic
00:59:02resources going directly to rural transit through formula dollars, but also through
00:59:07our discretionary dollars.
00:59:08We have now over $11 billion of the bipartisan infrastructure law, which represents close
00:59:14to $35 billion of resources going directly to meet the unique needs of rural communities.
00:59:20That would not have happened without the bipartisan infrastructure law.
00:59:24I think it just illustrates how this law has helped so many rural communities in so many
00:59:30ways.
00:59:31I also know that rural transit authorities tend to be small, they're scrappy, they're
00:59:35very innovative, and they don't have a big grants department that they can rely on to
00:59:41go and chase these federal dollars.
00:59:44So I know that you all have put a lot of time and energy into figuring out how to help rural
00:59:49transit authorities navigate through these different federal grant opportunities and
00:59:53reporting requirements that also follow.
00:59:55Could you just tell us a little bit about that work, because I think it's important
00:59:58for people to understand.
00:59:59Absolutely.
01:00:00We have stood up within the department a number of rural-specific programs to provide direct
01:00:06technical assistance.
01:00:07We have a $20 million technical assistance program directly for rural and tribal communities
01:00:11to not only understand how to navigate the federal process, but also how to deliver a
01:00:16project.
01:00:17Because sometimes that rural mayor or that transit, it may be also the planner, but also
01:00:20might be doing other five other jobs.
01:00:22And so the federal government can't just be on the sidelines, we want to be a partner.
01:00:26In addition to that, we also know that we want to support rural communities as we prepare
01:00:31for the 21st century.
01:00:32We have stood up a new rural EV toolkit that provides rural communities the step-by-step
01:00:38process to make sure that they're not left behind with the electrical vehicle revolution.
01:00:42But also, we're seeing amazing innovation where rural communities working with state
01:00:48DOTs are partnering with private companies.
01:00:50For example, we awarded $9 million to the North Carolina DOT to partner with nine rural
01:00:56counties and VIA to provide on-demand services for those residents.
01:01:01That's just an example of how we can meet the needs, but also prepare rural communities
01:01:04for the future.
01:01:05And that's what the bipartisan infrastructure law allows us to do.
01:01:07I really appreciate that.
01:01:08I also appreciate you highlighting the innovation that we see happening in these rural transit
01:01:13agencies that have to be creative because the models that might work in a larger city
01:01:19are just not going to work there.
01:01:20And so they are doing some pretty incredible work to make sure that people can get around
01:01:26and can be connected.
01:01:27Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
01:01:30Thanks Senator Smith.
01:01:31I thank you for your comments about transit.
01:01:34Senator Kramer is coming back, so I'm going to go a bit of a second round until he does.
01:01:40And Undersecretary Coz, I appreciate what you've said about transit-oriented development.
01:01:46One of the wonderful things about getting to chair this committee, when I took it over,
01:01:50it's always been called Banking, Housing, and Urban Development.
01:01:56It was really the committee that took care of Wall Street until I became chair, and we
01:02:00have emphasized sometimes, and Senator Smith does that, sometimes calls it Housing and
01:02:05Banking.
01:02:08But one of the focuses of this committee is public transit, and there isn't nearly enough
01:02:13interest in this town in public transit.
01:02:16It gets a whole lot of people, particularly moderate income people, to work.
01:02:20I remember a story.
01:02:22I was in Cincinnati one day, and their public transit system is called SORTA.
01:02:27I talked to the leader of the transit system who was struggling with keeping some additional
01:02:34routes that are there during the week, but routes that they don't have enough ridership
01:02:39for the weekend.
01:02:40And there was a young woman who worked at a moderate $10, $12, $13 an hour job, and
01:02:46the transit system, she had to work on Saturday.
01:02:49The transit system didn't run on Saturday, so she had to Uber to work on Saturday.
01:02:54She talked to her boss, and her boss said, you got to come in on the weekend.
01:02:57That's the way it is.
01:02:58If you want to keep this job.
01:02:59She had to Uber to work on Saturday, which ate up most of her income.
01:03:02So one of the things we're able to do is expand the service of SORTA's service.
01:03:07So Senator Kramer just entered, I'll turn to him in a second, but I like what you said
01:03:11about the opportunity for new housing construction near transit developments.
01:03:16That's really important in all the big cities, and the moderate-sized cities in my state.
01:03:22And what DOT can do to support such transit-oriented development, and transit-oriented development
01:03:28can bring you opportunities to those communities, again, especially those communities that in
01:03:33the 60s, 70s, and 80s were essentially almost demolished for interstate highways.
01:03:40And I look to any of the major cities in my state, particularly Columbus, where the number
01:03:45of people living in a neighborhood on the east side of Columbus, mostly African-American,
01:03:50shrunk by about two-thirds because the highway went through disrupting, demolishing businesses,
01:03:58demolishing people's homes.
01:04:00They had to move elsewhere.
01:04:01The community's vitality was essentially sapped, and wasn't able to be rebuilt.
01:04:06So always thinking about those issues.
01:04:09So thank you for that.
01:04:10Senator Kramer from North Dakota is recognized.
01:04:13Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:04:14Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
01:04:17Mr. Kohs, I'm going to initiate a conversation with you that will play off a little bit,
01:04:22I think, on your conversation with Senator Van Hollen relating to formula fixes.
01:04:28So I'm looking for some potential fixes.
01:04:32To a challenge I just learned about recently, I was at a groundbreaking ceremony for an
01:04:38expansion of the Hector International Airport in Fargo.
01:04:41And Fargo, of course, is our most populous city in North Dakota.
01:04:44And the mayor, Mayor Tim Mahoney, came up to me, and it's one of the great things about
01:04:49a small place, the mayor talks right to you.
01:04:52He's better than any lobbyist, just so you know.
01:04:55And I love my lobbyist friends.
01:04:57But he brought this to my attention that Fargo had gone, you know, they had one more baby
01:05:02or something that went from 199,999 people to 200,000.
01:05:06So you already know where I'm going.
01:05:09And he noticed this, you know, reduction in the formula funding, or at least in the amount
01:05:15that Fargo got.
01:05:16Now, it gets a little more nuanced than that, and I'm sure you're familiar with that, because
01:05:19they went from an MPO to a TMA in the transit funding.
01:05:25But by the way, just so you know, and I guess I think this gets back to your previous discussion
01:05:28with Senator Van Hollen, the formula changes, of course, but not just the formula, you know,
01:05:36the flexibility for the community to use the money the way they were using it, which in
01:05:42this case of Fargo was for operational expenses, and not understanding all of the fungibility
01:05:50of cash and all the ways you maybe could do this.
01:05:54He was just asking for help.
01:05:55And so as we dug into it a little more, we learned that there are, in fact, rules, laws
01:06:00that govern how you can distribute these funds, the transit funds, based on size of a community.
01:06:08My concern is that there's a little bit of a perverse incentive in that formula that
01:06:14actually discourages growth, and we don't want that, I don't think, on the one hand.
01:06:17On the other hand, maybe there's a rational reason for it.
01:06:21My view is just I describe this situation, tell you this story, and then maybe just see
01:06:27if you have some thoughts about it, ideas on how we could either legislatively or through
01:06:33budget process or whatever discretion the agency would have to sort of not punish communities
01:06:40like Fargo and see if there's a better way to do this.
01:06:45Senator Cramer, thank you for bringing that issue here, not only to my attention, but
01:06:49I know this is one that's shared within our building.
01:06:53Buildings need to be able to meet their needs, and we believe that whether it's through the
01:06:58formula program or even from our discretionary grants, we should be able to give them as
01:07:02much flexibility to achieve those goals.
01:07:04We do believe, and as I was discussing with Senator Van Hollen, that transit agencies,
01:07:10particularly coming out of COVID, are recognizing that travel patterns are different.
01:07:14We're seeing that now developers want to build near transit and create more walkable communities.
01:07:19We need to give transit agencies their ability to leverage not only the pent-up demand that
01:07:23they're seeing in the private market, but also the unique needs of their residents as
01:07:26we do these travel demands.
01:07:27We will love to work with you, as we say with Senator Van Hollen, to look at how we can
01:07:32make sure the formula programs, particularly on the transit side, particularly these larger
01:07:35systems have the flexibility they need to meet the changing environment, which again
01:07:40comes back to people want to live in great quality neighborhoods.
01:07:44I love that you refer to them as larger communities because we kind of consider Fargo to be larger
01:07:48than the small ones, but smaller than the larger ones.
01:07:51That's what they say about Thomasville, my hometown.
01:07:53We're still a small town.
01:07:55Yes, that's the flexibility, which I really appreciate.
01:07:59Quite honestly, and I know we've been talking, obviously we're talking about the bipartisan
01:08:02infrastructure bill, which I not only supported and voted for, but championed.
01:08:07The formula issues of all of the distribution of funds is really important to small states.
01:08:16We can't sort of reserve 100 miles for gravel in the middle of an interstate highway system,
01:08:22but similarly, for our communities where you have populations that certainly depend on
01:08:27good transit systems, we just want it to be, to your point, be successful.
01:08:32We want the communities to be successful.
01:08:34To the degree there's legislative fixes that are necessary, maybe Chris and I can work
01:08:39together with you on some of that, and then where there's flexibility within the agency,
01:08:44we'll ensure, encourage that as well.
01:08:46Absolutely.
01:08:47Mr. Chairman, that's all I have.
01:08:51Senator Cramer, thank you for the thoughtful questions and the follow-up, and it was worth
01:08:55stalling a little to wait for you to get back here, so thank you for making us all think
01:08:59about these important issues.
01:09:02Thanks to the three witnesses today, it shows we're making progress in long-overdue investments
01:09:08in infrastructure and the men and women in the construction workforce leading the way.
01:09:12I love thinking about that bridge I mentioned.
01:09:15We have much more to do in the years ahead.
01:09:17I'll keep working with USDOT.
01:09:19Thank you for that, and others at your department.
01:09:21When Ohio priorities like replacing more bridges, building big projects like the North Coast
01:09:26Connector in Cleveland, I'm going to keep reminding you of that.
01:09:29We'll continue working with the building trades to ensure that our transportation infrastructure
01:09:34and manufacturing sector, as you pointed out, Mr. Knisely, are making the nation's economy
01:09:39stronger, more competitive, and delivers more of the generational jobs that you talked about.
01:09:45Thanks for the witnesses for testimony today.
01:09:47For senators who wish to submit questions for the hearing record, those questions are
01:09:51due one week from today, Wednesday, August 7th, and witnesses have 45 days from that
01:09:57day to follow up with answers.
01:10:00Best wishes.
01:10:01Thank you all.
01:10:02The committee is adjourned.