Jeanne Shaheen Leads Senate Foreign Relations Committee Hearing About The Future Of Europe

3 months ago

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee held a hearing and received testimony from James O'Brien, the Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs.

Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:

https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript

Stay Connected
Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes
Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes
Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes
More From Forbes: http://forbes.com

Transcript

00:00:00This meeting of the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee

00:00:06on Europe and Regional Security Cooperation will come to order.

00:00:09I want to thank Ranking Member Ricketts for agreeing to sit

00:00:14and hold this hearing on this important topic.

00:00:17I also want to thank Chairman Cardin, who is the chair

00:00:20of the full committee, for being here today.

00:00:24And I know that we have some Ukrainian parliamentarians

00:00:28in the audience, so we very much appreciate your visit here.

00:00:32And thank you for all of the work that you are doing

00:00:36in your country.

00:00:37And I understand that you're going to Manchester,

00:00:39New Hampshire when you leave here.

00:00:41So we hope to give you a very warm welcome in New Hampshire.

00:00:47Over the past four years, there's perhaps no continent

00:00:51that has experienced such significant political security

00:00:54and economic shifts as Europe has.

00:00:57Putin's miscalculated decision to launch a full-scale invasion

00:01:00of Ukraine in 2022 upended the world,

00:01:04but not in the way that he thought it would.

00:01:06Putin thought his efforts to drive divisions within Europe

00:01:09and build its reliance on Russian oil

00:01:11and gas would thwart a unified, coordinated response

00:01:16to its illegal invasion in Ukraine.

00:01:18Instead, it upended European policy toward Russia

00:01:22and its attitudes toward the rest of the world.

00:01:25And today, the transatlantic alliance is stronger than ever.

00:01:29Most notably, Ukraine is standing firm

00:01:32in its fight for freedom.

00:01:34Putin thought Kiev would fall in a day,

00:01:37but today we have much of Ukraine is still standing strong

00:01:42in the face of Putin's disillusional imperial campaign.

00:01:47For two and a half years, Ukraine has defied all odds

00:01:50by valiantly defending its sovereignty,

00:01:53holding the Russian military to account for its actions,

00:01:56and launching multiple successful military operations

00:02:00to degrade Russia's naval assets

00:02:02and military capabilities in the Black Sea.

00:02:05And Europe has come together in other ways.

00:02:07In addition to the United States,

00:02:09many European countries have signed bilateral security

00:02:12agreements with Ukraine to provide long-term support

00:02:16as Ukraine defends its freedom.

00:02:19The fight for Ukraine's independence

00:02:21has been championed by NATO allies.

00:02:23The response to Russia's invasion,

00:02:25led by the Biden administration in coordination with NATO,

00:02:28the European Union, and our Indo-Pacific partners,

00:02:32waged the most effective and coordinated response

00:02:34to Russian actions and made it clear to President Putin

00:02:38that his unprovoked aggression to undermine a sovereign country

00:02:42will come at a hefty price.

00:02:44Despite Putin's efforts to prevent the enlargement of NATO,

00:02:47he was directly responsible for the addition of Sweden

00:02:51and Finland to our NATO family,

00:02:53increasing the alliance from 30 to 32 allies.

00:02:57And since Putin's unjust invasion,

00:02:59NATO allies have significantly increased defense spending.

00:03:03Twenty-three allies are now meeting

00:03:05the 2% defense spending target,

00:03:08with others on pace to hit the goal in the coming years,

00:03:11compared to just 6% to just 6 countries

00:03:15prior to the invasion of Ukraine.

00:03:17Now, we recognize that the tough decisions

00:03:19undertaken by our European allies and partners

00:03:22have had significant political and economic costs.

00:03:26Europe's overdue decision to end its reliance on Russian gas

00:03:30resulted in a significant hike in energy prices,

00:03:33in addition to record inflation rates

00:03:35due to Russia's blockade of Ukrainian grain exports

00:03:38on the Black Sea.

00:03:39And despite these significant economic shocks

00:03:42being felt deeply by Europeans,

00:03:44there is strong, continued public support in Europe

00:03:48for Ukraine and a broader recognition

00:03:51that Putin must be stopped in Ukraine

00:03:53before his imperialist ambitions

00:03:55threaten other parts of Europe and NATO.

00:03:59We recognize, however, that recent elections

00:04:02that have taken place across Europe,

00:04:04from the European parliamentary elections

00:04:06to the elections in France,

00:04:09illustrate that some political groups

00:04:11are willing to capitalize on discontent

00:04:14to fuel their far-right agendas.

00:04:16So although we should celebrate our achievements

00:04:18in strengthening within our alliance,

00:04:21this hearing is an opportunity to understand

00:04:23how we can further consolidate our transatlantic unity

00:04:27to address future challenges,

00:04:29such as addressing the economic challenges faced by China.

00:04:34Most importantly, we must continue to ensure

00:04:36that our citizens see the benefit of alliance unity

00:04:40by strengthening both our trade ties and our democracy.

00:04:44In just my home state of New Hampshire,

00:04:47we do about $3 billion in exports to Europe each year,

00:04:51and that shows just how much we are dependent

00:04:55on a stable and prosperous Europe.

00:05:00Assistant Secretary O'Brien, in your testimony

00:05:03and in questions from members today,

00:05:05I hope you can address some of the most pressing questions.

00:05:09How can we ensure that our U.S. and EU citizens

00:05:12are both informed and collectively benefit

00:05:15from our increased economic coordination?

00:05:18How do we ensure that the U.S. public understands

00:05:20the importance of addressing the threats

00:05:22faced by Russia and China?

00:05:25How can we continue to sustain strong support for Ukraine

00:05:28so that victory is defined under its own terms

00:05:31and not by dictators like Putin or Viktor Orban?

00:05:35And how can we continue to support aspirant countries

00:05:38in the Western Balkans who are withstanding

00:05:41significant domestic political headwinds in their efforts

00:05:45to seek EU and NATO membership?

00:05:48And how do we continue to support

00:05:50the spirit of democracy in countries like Georgia,

00:05:53where the government has taken efforts

00:05:55to undermine its own EU membership ambitions,

00:05:58despite the overwhelmingly pro-EU aspirations

00:06:01of its people?

00:06:03Assistant Secretary O'Brien, we are

00:06:05grateful that you've agreed to testify today.

00:06:08Your role is critical to ensuring

00:06:10that our partnerships with Europe

00:06:11continue to make the United States more

00:06:13prosperous and more secure.

00:06:16And before I end, I just want to say thank you

00:06:18to Morgan Kennedy, who is here, who

00:06:21has served in my office for the past year

00:06:23as a Pearson Fellow on loan from the Department of State.

00:06:26It's a great program, and we appreciate that,

00:06:30and we appreciate all of the great work

00:06:31that Morgan has done in our office.

00:06:33So next month, she'll be rejoining

00:06:36the Department of State, focusing on Europe and support

00:06:39for Ukraine.

00:06:41Now, before I introduce Assistant Secretary O'Brien,

00:06:44I will turn it over to Senator Ricketts

00:06:46for his opening remarks.

00:06:49Thank you, Madam Chair.

00:06:50We often refer to the war in Ukraine

00:06:52as Putin's war of aggression.

00:06:55And that might have been true on February 24, 2022.

00:07:00But that framing is not accurately really described

00:07:03now the war today.

00:07:05And it's because this war isn't just

00:07:07about Putin's war of aggression.

00:07:09It's an opening salvo in a larger protracted fight

00:07:13that an axis of authoritarians is leading,

00:07:16including the PRC, People's Republic of China, Russia,

00:07:19Iran, and North Korea.

00:07:21And they're waging on the West.

00:07:24The winner will not only define the future of Europe,

00:07:28but also the future of the entire free world.

00:07:32For those in Europe who want to focus squarely on Putin,

00:07:35but not apply the same level of fervor

00:07:37to the other partners in the axis,

00:07:39that would be a strategic blunder.

00:07:43Iran has supplied thousands of weaponized drones

00:07:45that have been used to attack Ukrainian cities

00:07:48and exhaust Ukrainian air defenses.

00:07:50But it doesn't end there.

00:07:52From plots targeting Jewish and Israeli targets

00:07:54to devastating cyber attacks, Iran

00:07:56wishes to inflict only terror and chaos across Europe.

00:08:01Too frequently, North Korea's role in the axis is minimized.

00:08:05However, its new mutual defense treaty with Russia,

00:08:07combined with millions of artillery shells

00:08:09and ballistic missiles it has sent to Putin,

00:08:12showcases the true threat Kim Jong-un poses to Europe.

00:08:18Still, of Russia's partners, none of them

00:08:21pose a greater threat to European security

00:08:23than the People's Republic of China.

00:08:25Xi and Putin's no-limits partnership

00:08:27has led the PRC propping up Russia's war economy

00:08:30and delivering critical weapon components

00:08:32necessary for Russia to maintain its aggression.

00:08:36And while the PRC has not sent lethal aid yet,

00:08:40last month we saw PLA soldiers conduct joint military exercises

00:08:43for the first time in Belarus,

00:08:45mere miles away from NATO's border.

00:08:49Let's be clear.

00:08:50Xi Jinping wants and is invested in Putin winning.

00:08:54No amount of diplomacy from the US, Europe, or even Ukraine

00:08:57will change this or make the PRC

00:09:00play a positive role in ending this war.

00:09:04I was pleased to see NATO allies strongly and unequivocally

00:09:07call out the malign aggression of all four of these Axis

00:09:11members in a recent summit here in Washington.

00:09:14But strong words don't deter dictators.

00:09:16Only strong actions do that.

00:09:18That's why it's important that NATO allies

00:09:20spend more on their defense and security.

00:09:24There are some who want to make a victory lap

00:09:26that we've got 23 allies that met the 2% target,

00:09:28and that is improvement.

00:09:31Yet it's unclear whether some of these allies, notably Germany,

00:09:35have plans to be able to sustain this level of spending

00:09:37for the long term.

00:09:39And we still have allies like Spain and Belgium

00:09:42that 10 years after the 2% pledge

00:09:45can still barely muster up 1.3% of their GDP on defense.

00:09:50This is even more concerning given that 2% benchmark

00:09:53made in 2014 does not come close to matching

00:09:56the new threat environment that we have today or in the future.

00:10:01The NATO alliance has been rejuvenated,

00:10:04but its sustained success comes down

00:10:06to increased capabilities, lethality, and manpower,

00:10:09all of which can only be met with more spending.

00:10:13We can no longer afford to give participation trophies

00:10:16to free-riding allies unwilling to do their part.

00:10:20I want to address another theme expressed

00:10:21by some European officials at the NATO summit,

00:10:24the need to Trump-proof the alliance.

00:10:27Just like the recent elections in Europe,

00:10:28the upcoming elections in November

00:10:30and a potential Trump administration

00:10:32would bring about differences in policy and strategy.

00:10:35That's how democracies work.

00:10:37However, if President Trump does win,

00:10:39I would encourage Europe to this time

00:10:40adopt a more constructive approach.

00:10:43It goes without saying that had Europe listened

00:10:45to the Trump administration on the need

00:10:47to increase its defense spending

00:10:49and its dangerous reliance on Russian energy,

00:10:51Europe would have been in a much stronger position

00:10:53both before and after Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

00:10:56The Trump administration earned a right

00:10:58to say to Europe, I told you so.

00:11:01Regardless of the outcome of the election in November,

00:11:03however, our collective success depends

00:11:05on uniting against the threats posed

00:11:09by this burgeoning Axis and comes down to two facts.

00:11:13First, the United States cannot win this fight alone.

00:11:17And second, our allies, particularly in Europe,

00:11:19must radically evolve their security posture

00:11:21against all Axis members to match the nature of the threat.

00:11:26This means ensuring Ukraine is successful

00:11:28instead of allowing a fear of a Russian escalation

00:11:31to force us into maintaining the status quo.

00:11:34This means aggressively de-risking

00:11:36from the Chinese economy instead of being enticed

00:11:38by short-term economic gains

00:11:40at the expense of long-term security losses.

00:11:43This means reimposing strong sanctions on Iran

00:11:46that deprive it of the revenues it uses

00:11:48to fund terrorism in Europe and around the globe

00:11:50instead of banking on the false hope

00:11:51that the Iranian regime will fundamentally change.

00:11:55And it means increasing our economic

00:11:56and diplomatic pressure on Pyongyang

00:11:58instead of allowing Kim Jong-un's rogue regime

00:12:02to grow more dangerous in the shadows.

00:12:05Ultimately, Europe's future will be defined

00:12:06on whether we can together adapt quickly enough

00:12:10to meet the moment.

00:12:11For the sake of Europe, the transatlantic alliance,

00:12:13and the future of the free world,

00:12:15I hope and believe we can.

00:12:18Thank you, Madam Chair.

00:12:19Thank you, Senator Ricketts.

00:12:21Now it's my pleasure to introduce our witness.

00:12:24Jim O'Brien is Assistant Secretary of State

00:12:27for Europe and Eurasian Affairs,

00:12:28which is a position he began

00:12:30after being confirmed earlier this month.

00:12:34Mr. O'Brien was previously a career State Department officer

00:12:38and served two previous administrations

00:12:40as a special presidential envoy.

00:12:42Notably, he was the first presidential envoy

00:12:46for hostage affairs from 2015 to 2017,

00:12:49and helped establish the office

00:12:51and work for the safe return

00:12:52of about 100 American citizens.

00:12:57Over the course of his career at the State Department,

00:12:59he led a large and successful sanctions program

00:13:02and advised on a range of issues,

00:13:04including peace negotiations in Europe,

00:13:06scientific and environmental agreements,

00:13:08and initiatives to investigate

00:13:10and prosecute persons responsible for war crimes.

00:13:14With that, Mr. O'Brien,

00:13:15I turn it over to you for your opening statement.

00:13:19Thank you, Madam Chair, Mr. Ranking Member,

00:13:21and Mr. Chairman.

00:13:23I know you've had a long day

00:13:25of State Department testimony already,

00:13:28so I'll try to just add to what you both said

00:13:30in your excellent opening statements.

00:13:34With Europe, we've built a platform

00:13:37that lets us project power

00:13:39and promote our values and security.

00:13:43What we've been doing over the last year

00:13:47is strengthening that platform

00:13:49and extending it to new areas.

00:13:52Now, we see Russia pushing back hard against it,

00:13:55and that's one theme in every country we'll talk about.

00:13:58Sometimes, Russia's aided by local elites

00:14:01who find benefit in sitting just outside the rule of law.

00:14:06And through all this, as Senator Ricketts, as you mentioned,

00:14:09China is looking to see if it can benefit

00:14:12from weakening the platform that we have with our allies.

00:14:16And it's important that we impress on our partners

00:14:19and our allies that they have to face up

00:14:22to what China is doing.

00:14:24And I think we're making some progress there,

00:14:26and I'll talk a bit about that.

00:14:28So I'll mention three areas that are of special importance,

00:14:31and I know that questions will take this much deeper.

00:14:34The first is Ukraine.

00:14:37As you noted, Russia is an imperialist,

00:14:40aggressive, revanchist power.

00:14:43Ukraine is fighting to preserve its independence,

00:14:47in part so we don't have to have this fight,

00:14:50even though Putin threatens other allies of America.

00:14:54So we want Ukraine to win,

00:14:56and we are providing Ukraine with the material to win.

00:15:01In the last month or two, the platform we're discussing

00:15:06has gotten much stronger and has reached out to Ukraine

00:15:10in three particular ways.

00:15:11The EU has begun membership negotiations with Ukraine

00:15:16that will encourage reform

00:15:17of the kind Ukraine's people have demanded,

00:15:21and will begin to open up markets for Ukraine

00:15:24so that it's able to participate

00:15:27in a much more lucrative, high-value economy

00:15:32than had been the case before.

00:15:34The G7 leaders together agreed

00:15:38that Ukraine would have the benefit

00:15:40of earnings from Russian sovereign assets,

00:15:44giving it this year, we anticipate, $50 billion

00:15:48to spend on defending itself and rebuilding its society

00:15:53from the damage Russia has brought.

00:15:55And NATO, of course, has said Ukraine is welcome

00:15:59once it takes a few steps across the bridge to NATO

00:16:02that was built at this last month's summit in Washington.

00:16:07This is the fastest way to peace,

00:16:10that Ukraine is able to win the war,

00:16:12or say to Putin, we're able to negotiate from confidence.

00:16:16Everything else is a chimera.

00:16:19So with this, we see Ukraine making some progress

00:16:22on the battlefield,

00:16:24and I'm happy to address that more in questions.

00:16:27We have, at the same time, strengthened our platform,

00:16:30and in particular, NATO.

00:16:31And you both mentioned the various ways

00:16:32in which that is true.

00:16:34And Senator Ricketts, I completely agree

00:16:37that we can't win this war alone.

00:16:40So we are working with others,

00:16:42and we are making sure that our spending

00:16:43is not just higher, but smarter,

00:16:45with regional defense plans,

00:16:47so we can measure the progress that we're making

00:16:49and hold each other to account.

00:16:53NATO's also going to be developing a new strategy

00:16:55toward Russia over the next months,

00:16:58and that will hold our allies together

00:17:02as we go forward in dealing with Russia.

00:17:05And here, all the NATO allies agreeing

00:17:08that the PRC is the decisive enabler of Russia's war

00:17:12is a significant step,

00:17:14and one that will allow us to build

00:17:16on the platform that we have.

00:17:18At the same time that we're focused on Ukraine,

00:17:21we're working to confront what I would call

00:17:24the arc from the Caspian to the Adriatic,

00:17:28a group of states that are looking to have less Russia,

00:17:31but to be much closer to the rule of law

00:17:35that is offered by membership in the EU and NATO,

00:17:37or by closer relationships.

00:17:39And across this area, over the last two years,

00:17:42we've consistently seen a desire

00:17:45to have less Russia in place.

00:17:47And now we are seeing some pushback,

00:17:50sometimes fueled by Russia, sometimes by local elites,

00:17:53who like to be close to European banks,

00:17:55but not European rule of law.

00:17:58And we are working in each one of those places,

00:18:00and each one has its own particular idiosyncrasies,

00:18:04but we're working in each one of those places

00:18:07to try to strengthen the platform that we've built.

00:18:11And finally, we're making sure that Americans benefit

00:18:14from this work we do with Europe.

00:18:17Europe is our largest trading partner.

00:18:20We are half of global GDP.

00:18:22Five million Americans are employed by European countries.

00:18:26And we will work through every mechanism we have

00:18:29so that Americans see in their pocketbooks

00:18:32the benefit of closer cooperation with Europe.

00:18:36So thank you for the time,

00:18:37and I look forward to your questions.

00:18:40Thank you very much for that testimony.

00:18:43I'm gonna defer to Chairman Cardin for his questions.

00:18:46Well, thank you, Senator Shaheen.

00:18:48And thank you for holding this hearing.

00:18:51Senator Ricketts, thank you very much.

00:18:53We are very fortunate, the leadership we have

00:18:56on this subcommittee and the work that you all do

00:18:59in a very bipartisan manner, so we appreciate it very much.

00:19:02Secretary O'Brien, welcome.

00:19:04Thank you for your service.

00:19:06I wanna welcome our Ukrainian parliamentarians

00:19:09who are here.

00:19:10It's a pleasure to have you in our committee room.

00:19:13It's clear to all of us that the future of Europe,

00:19:16the subject of today's hearing,

00:19:17very much depends upon Ukraine's success

00:19:20against Russia's invasion.

00:19:21That's our top priority

00:19:23and will continue to be our top priority.

00:19:25So I wanna talk a little bit about how we got here.

00:19:30And it'll connect to your last point, Secretary O'Brien,

00:19:34dealing with places that want less reliance on Russia

00:19:37that are reaching out to us.

00:19:39What happened in this attack on Ukraine's sovereignty

00:19:43started with the invasion of Crimea and taking over Crimea,

00:19:47and we didn't do anything about that.

00:19:49And before that, Russia invaded Georgia,

00:19:53and we didn't do much about that at all.

00:19:56Russia took over Moldova, Transnistria area.

00:19:59We didn't do much about that.

00:20:01So we have seen Russia's aggression,

00:20:05and we're drawing a line right now in Ukraine, as we should,

00:20:08because they're trying to really take over

00:20:10the entire country, but that's not the only place.

00:20:14Since the Russian invasion of Ukraine,

00:20:17we found another area that Russia's been engaged in,

00:20:20maybe not directly, but certainly as an enabler,

00:20:24and that's Armenia.

00:20:26I was recently in Armenia at the border of Nakharnakaraba.

00:20:29Now, I can't go to the border

00:20:31because in that area of Armenia that's on the border

00:20:35is now controlled by the Azerbaijanis.

00:20:39How did they get control of that area?

00:20:41Through Russia, Russia allowing them

00:20:43to take that control of territory.

00:20:46What has the international community done about that?

00:20:48Haven't seen very much at all.

00:20:51Haven't seen even a lot of comments about it.

00:20:54So as you talk about countries

00:20:56that are trying to get closer to the United States,

00:20:58Armenia is one of those countries,

00:21:00and yet they are now have a real security threat

00:21:04to their borders by being taken by force by Azerbaijan

00:21:08with the complicity of Russia.

00:21:11So tell me what we're doing in order to show our support

00:21:17for the principles that countries

00:21:19cannot change borders by force

00:21:22and that countries that are reaching out

00:21:23to the United States or the West

00:21:25for a closer relationship, such as Armenia,

00:21:28are not going to be subject to retaliation by Russia

00:21:32without the support of the West.

00:21:37Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

00:21:39So Armenia is a subject we spend a great deal of time on.

00:21:42So with Secretary Blinken and President von der Leyen,

00:21:46we met with Prime Minister Pashinyan several months ago,

00:21:50established a new platform

00:21:52to help Armenia reduce its dependence on Russia.

00:21:56It's almost entirely dependent on Russia

00:21:58for its energy and its economy.

00:22:00We need to diversify that so that it's able to...

00:22:02And for its border security.

00:22:04And I'll come to security in just a second.

00:22:07So making it possible for them to make the brave steps

00:22:11that Prime Minister Pashinyan is leading them on,

00:22:13which is a break with Russia.

00:22:15Now, as you point out,

00:22:17Russia had guaranteed Armenia's security

00:22:20after the 2020 war with Azerbaijan

00:22:23and for a long time before that.

00:22:25And it failed, it turned its back

00:22:27as Azerbaijan retook the territory around Nagorno-Karabakh.

00:22:32And that has led to a severe break

00:22:35where much of the population of Armenia

00:22:38wants to get further from Russia.

00:22:40So we're creating the conditions for that to happen.

00:22:43A significant deadline will come later this week

00:22:47when several thousand Russian troops, FSB troops,

00:22:52have been requested to leave.

00:22:54And those are really significant for a number of reasons,

00:22:57in part because they manned the border

00:22:59at the international airport.

00:23:01And that's where some of the sanctioned

00:23:03smuggling evasion takes place.

00:23:05So we'll see whether Russia is really willing to honor

00:23:08the sovereign wishes of Armenia that it leave

00:23:12so that Armenia can build the relationships that it wants.

00:23:15We're also strongly supporting the peace effort

00:23:18that Prime Minister Pashinyan has been developing

00:23:21with President Aliyev in Azerbaijan.

00:23:23Russia is trying to make sure it doesn't happen.

00:23:26Russia is trying to make sure that anything

00:23:29that happens there happens on its terms.

00:23:32And I think both of those two countries

00:23:34are a bit frustrated by the involvement, to be honest.

00:23:40And we are working very hard so that the expressed desire

00:23:44of peace can be manifest in an agreement.

00:23:47And I'll just say one more thing

00:23:48about why that matters so much.

00:23:51You look at a map from Central Asia,

00:23:54which is not a part of this committee,

00:23:56but Central Asia all the way through,

00:23:58the Central Asian countries are incredibly rich.

00:24:01And right now their only options to the global markets

00:24:04fundamentally are through Russia or China.

00:24:06If we can open up a route that goes through Azerbaijan

00:24:10and Armenia, then they will have access to global markets

00:24:14and much less dependence on Russia and China.

00:24:18So this is all a part, again, of allowing countries

00:24:22to choose their own paths to the global markets.

00:24:24I appreciate that and I support everything you just said,

00:24:27but it still begs the question that without much complaint,

00:24:33Azerbaijan is now occupying part of Armenia,

00:24:37strategic part of Armenia.

00:24:39And there has been no real protest

00:24:42about their controlling the highlands

00:24:45next to Nakharna Karabakh that puts Armenia

00:24:48at tremendous risk of the corridor

00:24:51that could divide the country or lose its southern edge.

00:24:55And I haven't seen much of a fuss made

00:24:58by the international community.

00:25:01Yes, please, go ahead.

00:25:04No, I appreciate it and you're making a fuss here

00:25:06and I appreciate that.

00:25:08It's good to lay down the marker.

00:25:10The two sides have agreed to a border demarcation process.

00:25:16They've agreed on what the lines are and you're right,

00:25:19there are some territories that each side still occupies

00:25:23that according to the line they've agreed

00:25:25will probably end up going back the other way.

00:25:28The highlands are a particular interest.

00:25:31But that's a process that the two sides are working on.

00:25:33We've been very clear that any adjustment

00:25:38that the border they've agreed

00:25:40is the one that they should end up with

00:25:41unless the two sides agree that they don't.

00:25:44I'll just, I don't wanna.

00:25:46My understanding, the peace process does not deal with that.

00:25:50Well, it does.

00:25:53I mean, there is a peace agreement under negotiation

00:25:57that defers the border demarcation

00:25:59to another channel in the peace process.

00:26:02So you can't just hide this all.

00:26:03And I support that,

00:26:05but whether we'll ever get to that point,

00:26:07my concern is gonna be years down the road

00:26:10and we're gonna have another Moldova and another Georgia.

00:26:12Thank you, Madam Chair.

00:26:14Thank you, Senator Cardin.

00:26:15Senator Ricketts.

00:26:17Thank you, Chair.

00:26:19Two years ago, President Biden issued a red line

00:26:21to the PRC not to provide material support

00:26:24for Russia's war in Ukraine or face consequences.

00:26:27And as I mentioned, while we don't see any lethal aid yet,

00:26:31certainly China is keeping the Russian economy afloat

00:26:35with energy purchases

00:26:36and providing a number of dual use materials and so forth

00:26:40to Russia to be able to continue this war.

00:26:43At the NATO summit, the alliance made a clear rebuke

00:26:46of Beijing for underwriting Putin's war in Ukraine.

00:26:50In the Washington declaration,

00:26:51allies threatened that, quote,

00:26:53PRC cannot enable the largest war in Europe

00:26:56in recent history without this negatively impacting

00:26:59its interests and reputation, end quote.

00:27:02And this level of clarity is encouraging.

00:27:05However, without subsequent actions

00:27:07to ensure further PRC support,

00:27:09these words are likely to achieve little.

00:27:11Since the start of the war,

00:27:12the US and the EU have sanctioned numerous Chinese companies

00:27:15and individuals to stem the flow of PRC dual use goods.

00:27:19While this has led to a recent decline,

00:27:21it still is estimated that hundreds of millions of dollars

00:27:23in dual use goods continue to flow from the PRC to Russia.

00:27:27Secretary O'Brien, NSA Sullivan recently said

00:27:32that the administration is prepared to tighten the screws

00:27:34on the PRC support for Russia,

00:27:36including potential sanctions against PRC banks.

00:27:40Given the time is of the essence,

00:27:41when can we expect a decision to move forward on this?

00:27:44Will Chinese banks be sanctioned?

00:27:49Thank you, Senator.

00:27:50So two years ago, we talked to the Chinese,

00:27:53not about just material assistance,

00:27:55but specifically focused on lethal assistance.

00:27:58And that line's held.

00:28:00Now we are talking to them about the material amounts

00:28:03of dual use goods that they are providing.

00:28:07And it is disturbing and wrong.

00:28:09They are providing 90% of the electronics

00:28:12that Russia depends on, 70% of the machine tools.

00:28:17This has had an effect of our European partners

00:28:21now recognizing that China is stoking the war machine

00:28:25that threatens Europe.

00:28:26And that's forcing China now to recalibrate

00:28:30some of its basic policies.

00:28:31How long it takes them to do that,

00:28:33that is something we will work to hasten,

00:28:37but that's a real exercise in daily diplomacy.

00:28:40On sanctions, as you said, we've sanctioned,

00:28:44I don't know the specific number.

00:28:46The Europeans earlier this summer

00:28:49began sanctioning a few Chinese entities as well.

00:28:52That was a significant step for them to take.

00:28:55We will continue to work on this.

00:28:57We don't preview exactly when we roll things out,

00:29:00but I assure you this is an area of real focus.

00:29:04And any information you've got, please provide to us,

00:29:07but it is something we'll keep working on.

00:29:09All right, so but you can't give me a timeline

00:29:11for when there may be sanctions on Chinese banks

00:29:13that are facilitating these transactions?

00:29:15I'm not gonna promise a date,

00:29:17but I will tell you we work on this every day.

00:29:20Well, also complicating this is the fact

00:29:22that Chinese banks are like half the Chinese transactions

00:29:26with these Chinese companies that Russia's doing

00:29:28are made through intermediaries in the UAE,

00:29:31Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, other countries.

00:29:35What are you doing to address that aspect of it?

00:29:37Is this also part of what you're working on?

00:29:39Yeah, it's, I mean, and someone from Treasury

00:29:43can walk through some of the difficulties,

00:29:45but there's been a real effort to reach out,

00:29:47particularly, say, in the Emirates,

00:29:49which has a deep banking sector.

00:29:52One of the challenges is that a lot of this trade

00:29:55is kind of closer to cash and carry.

00:29:57It's not like an infrastructure project

00:29:59where there's lots of documentation and research.

00:30:02It's just people kind of Venmoing each other money.

00:30:06So we have to make clear to banks

00:30:08that they have a higher duty of care

00:30:11to know their customers.

00:30:12And there's been a real effort in this.

00:30:14It began when I was in my previous role,

00:30:16and we're seeing some progress on this

00:30:18in some of these third country banks,

00:30:20particularly Turkey and the Emirates.

00:30:22And you also mentioned about, for example,

00:30:24I think you said 70% of the machine tools

00:30:27imported to Russia are coming from the PRC.

00:30:29Where are the other 30% coming from?

00:30:33Probably the U.S. and Europe.

00:30:36I don't have the exact breakdown.

00:30:39The difficulty with many of the products we're discussing,

00:30:42whether it's electronics or machine tools,

00:30:45is that they're sold on to brokers,

00:30:48and then they're sold on and sold on in commerce.

00:30:51So knowing the end user is difficult for the companies.

00:30:55We have been speaking with American companies

00:30:58and our European colleagues have been speaking

00:31:00with their companies about understanding

00:31:02who they're really selling to so that nothing new moves.

00:31:05And there are some new restrictions,

00:31:07and we'll take more steps to get at these shadow brokers.

00:31:11Can you give me an example of just what

00:31:12some of the new concrete steps we can take

00:31:14to cut off the supply of this other 30%?

00:31:16Yeah, well the first thing is getting on,

00:31:19having our companies understand

00:31:21that when they're getting new customers,

00:31:23those may well just be proxies

00:31:25for an old customer who's now illegal.

00:31:28So working our way through that's important.

00:31:30The second is identifying some of the key brokers.

00:31:34This is maybe more an issue for the electronics,

00:31:38but often the sales are just made to a giant wholesaler

00:31:42who then holds the goods and then sells them on.

00:31:46Having those held to a higher standard is important.

00:31:49A third is in Europe particularly

00:31:52to deal with land crossings.

00:31:55So the EU just, what happens is somebody

00:31:59in a Western European country makes a sale,

00:32:02their national authority will check it,

00:32:05but often not be fully aware of the situation

00:32:09at the end point, and then the goods will be routed

00:32:12through Belarus or Russia by land,

00:32:15and they fall off the back of a truck.

00:32:17So we need those border crossings to be toughened.

00:32:19The EU just gave those countries the authority

00:32:23to stop suspicious trucks, and now it's an exercise

00:32:26of putting in the enforcement muscle

00:32:29to make sure they can carry that out.

00:32:31Great, thank you, Mr. Secretary.

00:32:34Thank you, Senator Ricketts.

00:32:36Earlier this year, Congress passed

00:32:37the $95 billion National Security Sample Biddle,

00:32:4195 billion plus.

00:32:44Passed with strong bipartisan support,

00:32:46and much of the funding is critical

00:32:48to supporting Ukraine defend itself.

00:32:51Now, with long-range strike capabilities

00:32:54such as the ATAKMS provided by the U.S. and our allies,

00:32:57Ukraine has seen success in halting Russia's advances

00:33:00on the front lines and destroying

00:33:02Russian central command systems.

00:33:06I personally believe we should allow Ukraine

00:33:08to conduct the war in the manner that they say fit

00:33:12with our weapons, but can you talk about

00:33:15how the U.S.-Ukraine bilateral security agreement

00:33:19is allowing for increased intelligence sharing

00:33:21to improve Ukrainian targeting,

00:33:23and is the administration considering a policy change

00:33:26to allow the Ukrainian armed forces

00:33:28to service targets in range of the ATAKMS?

00:33:31And how does this compare with the UK's policy

00:33:35on the storm shadow?

00:33:41Thank you, Madam Chair.

00:33:42So the overall strategy, we want Ukraine to win.

00:33:46So we want them to use the weapons they have,

00:33:49both their own and the ones that are provided

00:33:52in the way that's most effective.

00:33:55Right now, that means holding in the east,

00:33:57and despite some of the headlines in recent days,

00:34:00I was just talking to Ambassador Brink,

00:34:02that we think those lines will stabilize.

00:34:05We don't see Russia making a major breakthrough,

00:34:08but we'll keep watching it.

00:34:10It means clearing away the Russian firing positions.

00:34:14You know, during the time that the supplemental

00:34:16did not pass, Russia really had the opportunity

00:34:20to bring enormous weaponry up really close

00:34:24to the front lines, and use it to devastate

00:34:27Ukraine's defenses and communities.

00:34:30And it means keeping the economic centers open.

00:34:33That means providing more air defense.

00:34:35So President Biden announced several weeks ago

00:34:38that the US and our allies have agreed to provide Ukraine

00:34:41with substantially more strategic air defense systems.

00:34:45That will let Ukraine's economic centers work.

00:34:48And that then pays off because Ukraine,

00:34:51using its own weaponry, with some help from ours,

00:34:54has cleared out the ability to trade through the Black Sea.

00:34:59All of those things have to come together.

00:35:01And the weaponry we're providing

00:35:04is a piece of doing those things.

00:35:06So it's a constant discussion about where

00:35:09the weapons can be best used.

00:35:12And I realize some of this may be better

00:35:14done in another setting, but what

00:35:16Ukraine has done to clear out a lot of the Russian capacity

00:35:21that was in close has been remarkable,

00:35:25using its weaponry and using weaponry we've provided.

00:35:28I don't have an exact comparison to what

00:35:30that is with the Storm Shadows.

00:35:32I know that I was just in London talking with their government.

00:35:35I think there's some public lack of clarity around how they're

00:35:39using the Storm Shadows.

00:35:40So maybe we can, I'll get an answer.

00:35:42We can talk about that off.

00:35:44That'd be great.

00:35:46Can you also talk about how the National Security Supplemental

00:35:50Bill has been important to advancing

00:35:53our own economic and national security interests?

00:35:58Yeah, thank you for that question.

00:36:00I testified before you just when the bill was first

00:36:04submitted last year.

00:36:06And I think there are a few key points.

00:36:08The most important is we are helping

00:36:10Ukraine fight for its freedom so that we

00:36:14don't have to have this fight there or sometime later.

00:36:17And I come from a family that's had several generations

00:36:20of adults men before me fight, and in some cases

00:36:23die, in European wars.

00:36:25So I appreciate how much that means to us.

00:36:29The second thing is that has a direct economic impact

00:36:33on the United States.

00:36:34So just one thing.

00:36:36Senator Ricketts and I are both from Nebraska.

00:36:39Grain prices, and I know it's not a great year for farmers

00:36:42now anyway, but for 150 years, they've

00:36:45been really decided by the back and forth

00:36:47between the American Midwest and Ukraine's exports

00:36:51through Odessa.

00:36:52Like that's kind of the fundamentals

00:36:55of the global grain market.

00:36:56And so if we allow Russia to control the Odessa

00:37:01or to control Ukraine's grain markets,

00:37:04then we have Russia in control of more than 20%

00:37:07of the global grain market, able to dump it at low prices

00:37:10when it wants or sell it at high prices or take away by.

00:37:13Like that's the kind of monopoly against us

00:37:18that we really don't want to see.

00:37:20And then finally, a lot of the money in that bill

00:37:24is spent in the United States in order

00:37:27to make the things that Ukraine needs.

00:37:29So I think $30 billion was dedicated

00:37:32to buy things made in the US.

00:37:35Another $15 or so billion was spent

00:37:37so that we were able to provide the kind of advice

00:37:41and assistance that Ukraine wanted.

00:37:43And that's not profiteering.

00:37:45That's buying the best stuff in the world

00:37:47and putting it to the best possible use.

00:37:50And while we're still on this topic,

00:37:53can you also talk about how much our European allies

00:37:57have contributed to the war in Ukraine?

00:37:59Because I think there's a misperception in some quarters

00:38:02that the United States has given all of this equipment

00:38:07and support and Europe has not done much.

00:38:10So the basic numbers, ours are,

00:38:13and we'll get you the precise numbers.

00:38:15I've got them in my voluminous materials.

00:38:18We've provided around about $87 billion

00:38:21of humanitarian, economic,

00:38:23and security assistance to Ukraine.

00:38:27Our European allies alone have provided around,

00:38:31what is it, 110 billion to this point?

00:38:34And that doesn't count much of what they have done

00:38:37for Ukrainians.

00:38:39There've been millions of Ukrainians

00:38:40have made second homes or first homes in Poland, Germany,

00:38:45and in other countries across Europe.

00:38:47And that money's in addition.

00:38:49So we see our European allies spending

00:38:52much more than we are.

00:38:53And going forward, the Europeans have committed

00:38:57to spend a great deal of their money on defense

00:39:01to support Ukraine.

00:39:03So it's just one example.

00:39:04In Germany, and Senator Ricketts,

00:39:06you mentioned a concern about Germany,

00:39:08they are strong backers of the plan

00:39:10to spend some of the Russian sovereign asset,

00:39:14windfall profit, with Ukraine.

00:39:17And they say a majority of that money

00:39:19likely will go for munitions.

00:39:21And frankly, a lot of that will be spent

00:39:24on American munitions,

00:39:25because ours is the best stuff available.

00:39:27But that's not the purpose,

00:39:29but that is what happens when the Europeans

00:39:32come to support Ukraine.

00:39:35Senator Ricketts.

00:39:37Great, thank you, Madam Chair.

00:39:38I wanna keep building upon one of the things

00:39:40we touched upon a little bit earlier

00:39:41with regard to missiles.

00:39:43At the Washington NATO Summit,

00:39:46the Biden administration announced

00:39:47they're gonna start deploying long-range missiles

00:39:49to Germany beginning in 2026.

00:39:53Secretary, do you agree

00:39:54that deploying these conventional missile systems,

00:39:56capable of threatening military targets

00:39:58deep inside of Russia,

00:39:59strengthens NATO's defense posture

00:40:01and complicates Russian planning efforts?

00:40:04Absolutely.

00:40:05So since Putin began his illegal war in Ukraine,

00:40:08Russia's fired numerous cruise and ballistic missiles

00:40:12into Ukraine, oftentimes targeting civilians

00:40:15from deep inside Russian territory.

00:40:17The Biden administration has actually prevented Ukraine

00:40:21from using a lot of the U.S. weapons

00:40:22to strike back at these military targets in Russia.

00:40:25In May, the administration reluctantly

00:40:27eased some of these restrictions,

00:40:28allowing HIMARS strikes on targets

00:40:33across the border as Russia was posing

00:40:35a significant threat and making gains in Kharkiv.

00:40:38However, these restrictions on Ukraine's use

00:40:39of long-range attack on targets inside of Russia remain.

00:40:43If deploying long-range missiles in Germany

00:40:47is critical to NATO's deterrence

00:40:48by threatening military targets deep inside of Russia,

00:40:51then why doesn't the same logic apply to Ukraine

00:40:53and its ability to do the same with U.S. weapons

00:40:55and other Western-provided weaponry?

00:40:58Why shouldn't they be allowed to strike

00:41:00these targets inside of Russia?

00:41:02Senator, I think some of this is probably best

00:41:05for a military briefing,

00:41:07but I'd just say as a general principle,

00:41:09we want Ukraine to use the weapons it has

00:41:13in the places they can do the most damage.

00:41:15For the last several months,

00:41:17that has been driving Russian firing positions back

00:41:21and denying it the ability to use Crimea

00:41:23essentially as a giant aircraft carrier

00:41:26threatening Ukraine.

00:41:28And Ukraine's been incredibly successful

00:41:31in that as a strategy.

00:41:33What the president said, and when asked about this

00:41:36at the end of the NATO summit,

00:41:38was that we'll continue to talk with Ukraine

00:41:41about the best way to use the weapons,

00:41:43given the situation on the battlefield at the time.

00:41:47Well, you know, at the NATO summit,

00:41:49the president, I think, also said,

00:41:51when he was defending his unwillingness

00:41:52to expand this policy, saying,

00:41:54if Zelensky had had the capacity to strike Moscow,

00:41:58strike the Kremlin, that wouldn't make sense, would it?

00:42:00But to your knowledge, is Ukraine asked

00:42:03to be able to use U.S. weapons to strike Moscow?

00:42:06If I knew that, I couldn't talk about it in this setting.

00:42:12No, I think the conversation that happens

00:42:15in military channels is very professional

00:42:20and focused on the actual situation in the battlefield.

00:42:23And again, we are looking for the use of these weapons,

00:42:26which there's not an infinite number of these weapons,

00:42:28so we're looking for them to be used

00:42:31in the sequence that does the most damage

00:42:33and in the places that will protect the most people.

00:42:39Where I'm going with those, not necessarily military,

00:42:41what I'm talking about is, how do we deter Russia

00:42:44from these kinds of things in the first place?

00:42:47And if we believe that having long-range weapons

00:42:50is gonna help deter Russia, and we give Ukraine

00:42:53the ability to start striking targets deep inside of Russia,

00:42:56doesn't that seem to make sense,

00:42:58that would also help deter Russia?

00:43:00And if we provide them the ability to do this,

00:43:03doesn't mean that they even have the capability

00:43:05to strike Moscow, but would give them the ability

00:43:09to strike targets such as air bases, ammunitions,

00:43:12and all that sort of thing, that would help us there.

00:43:14And my question would then be,

00:43:16by allowing some of these things,

00:43:18are we seeing a significant escalation from Putin?

00:43:21Do we see that with some of these things?

00:43:24We're seeing an escalation from Putin

00:43:25if we're giving the Ukrainians more freedom

00:43:27to be able to prosecute the war?

00:43:31To this point, the escalation we've seen

00:43:36from President Putin is a willingness

00:43:38to strike civilian targets,

00:43:41including children's cancer hospital,

00:43:45places that are known to be schools.

00:43:48So that is the escalation we're seeing.

00:43:52The reason we adopted the policy we have is,

00:43:56I know some people talk about escalation, ladder, concern.

00:44:01I've gotta say, inside the government,

00:44:04the conversation is about

00:44:05where can these things be effective?

00:44:08And Ukraine has its own weapons,

00:44:11which occasionally have been used

00:44:12to strike well beyond the limitations,

00:44:14even the physical limits, range limits,

00:44:17of the weapons the U.S. has.

00:44:20And there, they choose sometimes to use them

00:44:24in these long-range areas,

00:44:25and sometimes they focus nearer to hand,

00:44:28because that is the immediate need.

00:44:30And as the President said, we'll keep at this.

00:44:33Well, so what I hear you saying is that

00:44:35it's really not about the escalation,

00:44:36though the President said along the lines

00:44:39of it wouldn't be a good idea

00:44:40to allow Ukraine to be able to strike Moscow.

00:44:42So to me, that says that is about escalation,

00:44:44even though I don't believe Ukraine has plans

00:44:46to try to use our weapons,

00:44:48or even capability to strike Moscow with it.

00:44:52And I think what we ought to do

00:44:54is allow the Ukrainians to be able to fight this war

00:44:58so they can win by hitting those military targets

00:45:01deep inside of Russia, let them use the ATACMs

00:45:04in a way that can be the most effective

00:45:05as hitting those targets,

00:45:07and stop slow-rolling this,

00:45:10give them the opportunity to be able to win,

00:45:11and I encourage the administration to do that,

00:45:15because I think that's the fastest way

00:45:16to be able to get a victory here.

00:45:19So I've run over my time, I'll turn it back over.

00:45:22Thank you, Senator Van Hollen.

00:45:25Thank you, Madam Chairman.

00:45:26Mr. Assistant Secretary, great to see you

00:45:28and in your new capacity.

00:45:31Let me first say that given the limited time,

00:45:34there's some questions I'm gonna submit for the record

00:45:36regarding Cyprus and the fact that Turkey,

00:45:40under Erdogan, has made clear they do not wanna go back

00:45:44to UN negotiations, which, in my view,

00:45:50is something that the United States

00:45:52should be strongly opposing.

00:45:54I also wanna associate myself with some of the comments

00:45:56I understand Senator Cardin made

00:45:57with respect to Azerbaijan and Armenia,

00:46:00but I'd like to focus my questions on your current job

00:46:04and also the connection to your previous one

00:46:07on sanctions issues, and I understand

00:46:09we have some parliamentarians from Ukraine here.

00:46:12Great to have them with us.

00:46:15This morning, in the full committee,

00:46:16we had Deputy Secretary Campbell before us,

00:46:19and I asked him about our efforts to enlist support

00:46:23from our European allies, our NATO partners, EU members,

00:46:28also partners in East Asia, with respect

00:46:31to imposing sanctions on Chinese firms

00:46:36that are supporting the Putin war industrial complex.

00:46:40Not direct arms shipments, but high technologies

00:46:44that are helpful to them.

00:46:45Can you give us an update on how successful we are being

00:46:49in terms of getting our European allies to impose sanctions?

00:46:53Because, as you well know, they're far more effective

00:46:55when they're done collectively than alone.

00:46:59So, a couple of things, and Senator Ricketts probed

00:47:02on this topic, so we'll see if I improve the answer.

00:47:06The first thing is to have a clear political commitment

00:47:10to do so, and I think we've seen that over recent months,

00:47:14evident in the NATO summit communique

00:47:17that said China's the decisive enabler of this war,

00:47:21and we hear this privately from all our European colleagues.

00:47:25In Europe, the EU did put its first sanctions

00:47:29on some Chinese entities, it was a difficult process,

00:47:33but they managed to get through to it.

00:47:36We'll continue this work with them on all of the ways

00:47:40in which China keeps Russia on the battlefield.

00:47:43We see our European partners saying that they understand

00:47:49China is helping Putin build a military machine

00:47:52that threatens Europe.

00:47:54Now, there's a subtle distinction here

00:47:56in that sanctions are sometimes difficult for Europe

00:47:59because they require unanimity, and that allows one state,

00:48:03either out of actual disagreement or posturing,

00:48:07to disrupt or delay an entire package.

00:48:11There is room to do some work

00:48:12around the export control space,

00:48:14because that often, that just requires a qualified majority,

00:48:18and so there may be some activities there.

00:48:21Senator Ricketts asked when will we have the next package,

00:48:25and that's something I won't try to predict in this setting,

00:48:28but it is a process we work on every day,

00:48:30and we talk to our European colleagues about every day.

00:48:33Got it, no, I appreciate that,

00:48:35and look forward to following up with you

00:48:37on that other secondary mechanism that you talked about

00:48:40that doesn't require a unanimous agreement.

00:48:44On the oil price cap that we've now had in place

00:48:49a couple of years now, you know,

00:48:52my understanding from talking to Secretary Yellen

00:48:55and others at Treasury has been,

00:48:58overall, we have succeeded

00:49:00in driving down Russian oil revenues.

00:49:03They still have an awful lot of oil on the market,

00:49:05and countries like India and others are benefiting,

00:49:09but from the lower prices,

00:49:11but I know there's, this is always constantly something

00:49:15where there's efforts to get around our price cap,

00:49:18and that includes development of the Shadow Fleet tankers,

00:49:23and I know there's an ongoing discussion

00:49:25about whether or not we should take that next step,

00:49:28pursue more measures

00:49:30against some of the Shadow Fleet tankers.

00:49:32Can you talk about how we can make

00:49:34that price cap more effective?

00:49:37And I know it's partly in Treasury's jurisdiction,

00:49:40but also, obviously, in yours as well.

00:49:43It's a all-of-government approach.

00:49:47So our sense is that the price cap

00:49:49drives down the price of Russian oil

00:49:51by about $9 to $20 for each barrel.

00:49:55That's kind of on average,

00:49:56and obviously different grades

00:49:58and buyers may have a different result.

00:50:03That's largely because now Russia has to sell

00:50:07to two very large buyers who are savvy negotiators,

00:50:10China and India.

00:50:12So with that, we're lowering the amount of cash

00:50:15available to Putin.

00:50:17The harder side of the equation

00:50:19is that we believe we are driving up

00:50:21the expenses Russia has to export as well,

00:50:24so there's less profit.

00:50:26That's more difficult for us to get our hands on

00:50:28because of the opaque way that Russia sells its oil.

00:50:32One thing that is true is Russia and Iran

00:50:35have built these Shadow Fleets.

00:50:36They're almost entirely unregulated.

00:50:39A lot of our work over the last years

00:50:41has been to try to build a system of regulation

00:50:45to capture these ships,

00:50:46because the way sanctions work

00:50:48is that it's the insurance companies,

00:50:51the crew registries, the flag registries,

00:50:54who refuse to service sanctions violators,

00:50:57and these ships are old, creaky,

00:50:59and often without any of those protections.

00:51:02So we are layering in new requirements for ships,

00:51:06new warnings, port cities are beginning to refuse

00:51:10to accept certain ships.

00:51:12India did with a particular Russian tanker,

00:51:15and just yesterday, the UK and EU,

00:51:18after a lot of discussions with us,

00:51:21made some announcements about restricting access

00:51:23for the Shadow Fleet to their ports,

00:51:25and I can get you more information on that.

00:51:27And I think those are the kinds of things

00:51:29we'll be working on as we go forward.

00:51:31I appreciate that.

00:51:33As you say, you want to work at both ends of the equation,

00:51:36the expense as well as the profit end.

00:51:38Appreciate your efforts,

00:51:39and I look forward to following up.

00:51:42Madam Chair.

00:51:43Thank you, Senator Van Hollen.

00:51:45Secretary, Assistant Secretary O'Brien,

00:51:49one of the things you did early in your career

00:51:51was to help draft the Date and Peace Agreement.

00:51:55Now, 30 years later,

00:51:56I think the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina

00:51:59is as dangerous as it has been at any time

00:52:01since that agreement was signed.

00:52:04And one of the big reasons for that

00:52:06is that Republika Srpska president, Milorad Dodik,

00:52:12continues to refuse to support

00:52:18a unified government in the country,

00:52:20continues to talk about seceding with the republic

00:52:25from the rest of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

00:52:28continues to deny the genocide in Srebrenica,

00:52:33and not much seems to be happening to him

00:52:37as the result of all of those efforts and antics.

00:52:41So can you talk about what we're trying to do

00:52:45to hold him accountable?

00:52:50Thank you for your consistent support

00:52:52of Bosnia and Herzegovina over the years.

00:52:56In general, in the Western Balkans,

00:52:58the last two years, there's a real opportunity

00:53:01that was never there in the time since Dayton.

00:53:04It's an opportunity to join at least a single market

00:53:08of the EU, but also have real progress toward accession.

00:53:13So I hope that we're able to see

00:53:16that our three NATO members in the region

00:53:20starting with Montenegro and Albania make real progress.

00:53:23So that will change the political situation

00:53:27in the region considerably.

00:53:29In Bosnia, a difficulty is that Dayton

00:53:32was really a ceasefire among three factions,

00:53:36each one at the time dominated

00:53:38as a kind of ethno-nationalist group.

00:53:42And we see Mr. Dodik has decided

00:53:44that's a good model for him.

00:53:45He doesn't want to be part of the single market

00:53:48or have more of the rule of law.

00:53:52Where I disagree with you

00:53:53is that nothing's been done to him.

00:53:56So he's largely isolated.

00:53:58He doesn't have political support

00:54:00when he talks about secession.

00:54:03Croatia openly says it won't recognize,

00:54:06and that's one neighbor gone.

00:54:07And quietly, Serbia says,

00:54:09no, we're not changing these borders.

00:54:11We stick by original Dayton.

00:54:13And you've seen now President Vucic

00:54:15begin to say something like that publicly.

00:54:17So Dodik is alone.

00:54:19And if you just listen to him

00:54:20in his most recent press conference today,

00:54:25the sanctions are battering his finances.

00:54:28And so he has less and less money.

00:54:31What he's forced to do,

00:54:33because he refuses to engage

00:54:35through the central government mechanisms

00:54:37that should be part of paying for governance,

00:54:39he goes and tries to borrow money

00:54:41from China, from Russia, from Hungary,

00:54:43and occasionally from Serbia.

00:54:46And that is becoming more and more difficult for him.

00:54:50He used to be able to get favored banks

00:54:52to run government bonds,

00:54:54and that, he complained today,

00:54:55is shut off to him because of our sanctions.

00:54:58So all of this has to come together

00:55:00in a political strategy then

00:55:02that says Bosnia and Herzegovina

00:55:05has the chance to move forward

00:55:07if they adopt the reforms

00:55:09that the EU is asking for the single market.

00:55:11They just missed their deadline last week

00:55:14because a different one of the groups

00:55:17sought a little extra advantage

00:55:18and wouldn't sign off on the package.

00:55:21But President Dodik is feeling a lot of pressure,

00:55:24and I think we can work using our sanctions,

00:55:27using the bond powers,

00:55:28and using the pressure of this EU accession

00:55:31to begin to change the political incentives.

00:55:34Right now, it rewards him.

00:55:35The more outrageous he is,

00:55:37he has to be rewarded.

00:55:38The more he delivers for his citizens.

00:55:41Well, I appreciate that.

00:55:42I think anything that we can do

00:55:46to encourage him to behave in a way

00:55:49that's more helpful to the central government

00:55:53and the people of the country would be positive.

00:55:57You talk about EU accession.

00:56:00Senator Ricketts and I,

00:56:01and some other senators during the NATO summit

00:56:05had a chance to meet with the prime ministers

00:56:06of Albania, Montenegro,

00:56:10and the foreign minister from North Macedonia.

00:56:13Maybe it was the prime minister of North Macedonia

00:56:16and the foreign minister of Montenegro.

00:56:18And what we heard from them

00:56:22was some real frustration with the EU accession process.

00:56:26Feeling like the boundary keeps moving

00:56:30in terms of what they're being asked to do,

00:56:32particularly with respect to North Macedonia.

00:56:35So can you talk about what more we can do

00:56:38to encourage the Europeans

00:56:40to actually make good on the promise,

00:56:43to help once some of the Western Balkan countries

00:56:47have done the reforms that were asked them

00:56:50to stop moving the goalposts

00:56:52and actually allow the accession to move forward?

00:56:58Yeah, and thank you for having that meeting.

00:56:59It was important to the countries.

00:57:01This is a bit of a problem.

00:57:03So the first, it's a daily challenge

00:57:06to be a friend of the process,

00:57:08while often not being part of the process.

00:57:11But it means encouraging countries

00:57:13to make painful reforms,

00:57:16political factions within countries

00:57:18not to make outrageous demands

00:57:19that would derail the progress forward.

00:57:23It also means suggesting alternative paths.

00:57:26So one thing I worked on in and out of government

00:57:29was an effort to bring countries

00:57:31into a common regional market,

00:57:33but also into the single market ahead of full accession.

00:57:38Because with accession,

00:57:39it's the sitting at the EU council table

00:57:41that's so problematic,

00:57:43whereas the economic side can come much earlier.

00:57:46And that now is the EU's policy with the growth plan.

00:57:50So that's an American effort that we support,

00:57:52or American encouraged idea that we fully support.

00:57:58And it brings reforms and benefits early.

00:58:01And then in the accession process,

00:58:03there are two kinds of problems.

00:58:04There's actually delivering the reforms

00:58:07that are required.

00:58:08And then there are good neighborly relations.

00:58:11So North Macedonia has suffered

00:58:14because of disagreements with its neighbors,

00:58:16which does change the requirements for it constantly.

00:58:20And part of our work diplomatically is to prepare a path

00:58:25so that it maintains the agreement it has with Greece.

00:58:29And I think your meeting and others

00:58:31have helped keep that there

00:58:32so that Greece becomes a friend

00:58:34of North Macedonia's path forward,

00:58:38rather than a critic.

00:58:39Same with Albania.

00:58:40But also the main issue is an agreement

00:58:44North Macedonia has with Bulgaria.

00:58:46And once Bulgaria has a more stable government,

00:58:50there will have to be discussions

00:58:51about the exact way that gets implemented.

00:58:54So that'll be an area where I expect us

00:58:56to be very active as well.

00:58:59Senator Ricketts.

00:59:02Secretary, as the leaders were meeting in Washington

00:59:04for the NATO summit,

00:59:06the People's Republic of China and Belarus

00:59:09were holding military exercises

00:59:10just a few miles from the Polish border.

00:59:13And I might note Belarus is the newest member

00:59:16of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization as well.

00:59:19This signals not only increased cooperation

00:59:21between the PRC and Belarus,

00:59:23but also China's increased ambition militarily in Europe.

00:59:29And since 2015, the PRC and Russia

00:59:32have had joint naval exercises,

00:59:34both in the Mediterranean and in the Baltic Seas.

00:59:37The PRC is using dual use activities

00:59:40and partnering with Russia to expand its military presence

00:59:43and capabilities in the Arctic region.

00:59:44In fact, now it's declaring itself an Arctic power.

00:59:48What is this China participation in these exercises

00:59:52so close to NATO's border during the NATO summit signal

00:59:56about its military ambitions in and around Europe?

01:00:00I think for the interpreting China's perception of this,

01:00:03and I send you back to Deputy Secretary Campbell,

01:00:07who has a lot more insight to that than I do.

01:00:10So I'll get back to you with an answer on that.

01:00:13But what I will say is it was the most counterproductive

01:00:16thing China could do if it was attempting to say

01:00:21to our European partners that China poses no threat.

01:00:26So China's entire strategy coming out of COVID

01:00:30was to separate the US from our European partners.

01:00:33And with actions like that,

01:00:35it has told them that China is an active threat.

01:00:39So it makes it much easier for us now to advance issues

01:00:43like trusted vendors,

01:00:45like making sure critical infrastructure

01:00:47is free from surveillance

01:00:49and from illegally subsidized goods.

01:00:53All of the things that we have been working

01:00:55across administrations on,

01:00:57we are able now to make the case because of what China did.

01:01:01What possessed them to think this was a real show

01:01:05of strength, I think, is something I'll get back to you

01:01:08with an answer on, I don't want to speculate.

01:01:09Well, I also want to build on that just a little bit as well

01:01:11with regard to these military exercises.

01:01:14Was this something that is reducing Russia's

01:01:17sphere of influence in Europe?

01:01:19Or is this something that Russia's military

01:01:21or is this something that Putin and Xi coordinated

01:01:25as part of their no limits partnership?

01:01:27I mean, is this something that was planned?

01:01:29How do you assess that?

01:01:32I don't know what discussions they had on this

01:01:36and we'll get back to you on that.

01:01:38I think it's hard to imagine that if

01:01:43President Xi wanted to assert his power in Europe

01:01:48or assert a new capability,

01:01:50that seems an odd thing to do over the objections

01:01:55or to the surprise of President Putin.

01:01:57But why don't we, we'll get you something more.

01:02:00What about Belarus's entrance into the SCO?

01:02:03What are the implications for that?

01:02:06Yeah, it's a suggestion that Belarus wants to be part

01:02:09of this block that is not moving away from Russia.

01:02:13I think part of our effort with Belarus is to make clear,

01:02:17remember just a few years ago,

01:02:18the people of Belarus opposed the stolen election

01:02:23and went out in the hundreds of thousands

01:02:26and there are 1500 political prisoners left

01:02:29when we try to get out of prison regularly.

01:02:32There is a very active democracy movement in exile

01:02:37with, we think, a legitimate president.

01:02:39And we strongly support their efforts to prepare Belarus

01:02:43for the day when it, like Ukraine has,

01:02:46turns against this Russian effort

01:02:48to create an Easter-ward-looking block.

01:02:52President Erdogan recently said Turkey

01:02:54was interested in joining the SCO.

01:02:55What would that mean for a NATO ally to join that

01:02:58and what can we do to discourage that?

01:03:02Well, so Turkey is a very interesting ally.

01:03:06We have, at the moment, really effective cooperation

01:03:09in a number of fields.

01:03:12And a move like that would be very difficult to accept.

01:03:17So I don't know what he had in mind,

01:03:19if there was some element of it.

01:03:21We haven't seen a serious sign, at least expressed to us,

01:03:24and we've been very clear that sharing the kinds

01:03:28of information that NATO allies have to share

01:03:30with each other is incompatible

01:03:32with the belonging to some other group.

01:03:36The same thing with Turkey,

01:03:38its primary trading partner is Europe.

01:03:40That's 70% of its trade.

01:03:43It's in a customs union with Europe.

01:03:44So joining a trading group that looks another direction

01:03:48is incompatible with the undertakings it's already made.

01:03:52And I think, I don't know if that was just

01:03:55a rhetorical slip or more,

01:03:57but it's not something that would be easy to tolerate.

01:04:00So by your comments, though, I take it we have been

01:04:02in engagement with President Erdogan

01:04:03with regard to the things you just covered

01:04:05about why that would be unacceptable for a NATO ally.

01:04:09We speak with Turkey often on a lot of subjects,

01:04:13and I think in the last months,

01:04:15we've been very effective in having discussions,

01:04:19even about issues where we disagree,

01:04:21and I'm encouraged by the direction of the partnership.

01:04:24So a step like that is one that would be hard

01:04:26to reconcile with where we're headed.

01:04:29Great, thank you very much.

01:04:32I would like to do one more round of questions.

01:04:34I'm not sure what Senator Ricketts would like to do, but.

01:04:39Well, I got lots of questions.

01:04:42I was hoping I had tired you out.

01:04:45Nice try.

01:04:48Since you mentioned Belarus,

01:04:50one of the concerns I wanted to raise

01:04:53is that Lukashenko has allowed Belarus

01:04:58to be used by Russia to transfer Ukrainian children

01:05:02kidnapped from their families in Ukraine

01:05:04through Belarus and into Russia.

01:05:07Are we working with Ukraine and our European partners

01:05:10to track those Ukrainian children who have been kidnapped?

01:05:14And I use the word kidnapped

01:05:16because I think the term that's being used

01:05:19is the filtration of Ukrainian children,

01:05:21which I think is very much underplays

01:05:27what's really happening.

01:05:28These are children who have been kidnapped

01:05:30from their families, and can you speak

01:05:33to how Belarus is contributing

01:05:34to Putin's efforts in that respect?

01:05:37Yeah, the particular issue was that

01:05:39at least a few summers ago, Belarus ran summer camps

01:05:43for Ukrainian children who were taken from their families

01:05:47and then later often renamed as Russian

01:05:50and forcibly adopted.

01:05:52And as far as I know, Belarus continues

01:05:55that kind of engagement.

01:05:58So this is a crime.

01:06:00It's in fact the reason that President Putin

01:06:02was indicted by the International Criminal Court.

01:06:06We work to promote accountability for Russia's crimes

01:06:10through a number of mechanisms,

01:06:12both ones that are established

01:06:13by certain international bodies and Ukraine's domestic ones.

01:06:17So we try to provide support to Ukraine's activities

01:06:21wherever we can, including with the children.

01:06:24I'm happy I can get you a more comprehensive breakdown.

01:06:27But I think that this is a great example

01:06:31of why this war matters.

01:06:34The people who say we should have peace now

01:06:37are signing up for everyone in the occupied territories

01:06:41being filtered into becoming Russian citizens.

01:06:44So we saw in Bucha, that meant torture and random killings.

01:06:48We see thefts of children.

01:06:50And we see then thefts of property and grain

01:06:53and resettlement of Russian populations

01:06:56into occupied territory.

01:06:58All of those are crimes.

01:06:59So peace is not quiet.

01:07:02Peace is a violence that goes on by a state

01:07:05against the citizens who live there.

01:07:07And that I think is unacceptable.

01:07:10I totally agree and I appreciate

01:07:11your being so focused on that.

01:07:17I'm also very concerned about Georgia,

01:07:20about the backsliding in Georgia,

01:07:22about the Georgian parliament's passage

01:07:24of the foreign agents law

01:07:27that is really mirrors a similar Russian law.

01:07:33They've done that despite the opposition

01:07:35from the Georgian people.

01:07:38Now, can you, I think it's really important

01:07:41that we are clear, and I think we have been in Congress,

01:07:45there is bipartisan opposition

01:07:47to what's happening in Georgia.

01:07:49And I hope that the government of Georgia

01:07:52understands that this is a bipartisan issue.

01:07:57But I think it's important that our government

01:07:59use the authorities at its disposal

01:08:02to impose financial sanctions on individuals

01:08:05who are responsible for corruption

01:08:06and other actions that have contributed

01:08:08to the situation there.

01:08:10Can you provide an update on this effort

01:08:13and where we are in that,

01:08:15and whether there's more that Congress should be doing?

01:08:18Yeah, this was an issue we discussed

01:08:26in my confirmation hearing last summer.

01:08:29I think it was a year ago, just a couple days ago.

01:08:33We seem to have in Georgia some elites

01:08:35who are looking for a different population.

01:08:38They are turning their backs on a path to EU and NATO.

01:08:43This party, in fact, wrote commitments

01:08:47to join the EU and NATO into their constitution,

01:08:51and now is turning the other direction.

01:08:54And why is a little bit difficult to sort out.

01:08:59So we are trying to be very clear about what must be done

01:09:03and how important it is.

01:09:06Because Georgia is asking to join clubs,

01:09:09one of which we are a member,

01:09:11and the other one is our key partner.

01:09:14And they don't get to rewrite the rules of those clubs,

01:09:17so they get to join.

01:09:20Now, we are first off reviewing

01:09:22all of our assistance to Georgia.

01:09:25We very much want to support everything

01:09:27that will contribute to free and fair elections this fall,

01:09:30when they have parliamentary elections.

01:09:34But we need to make clear to the party

01:09:37that there will be real competition.

01:09:39We've already postponed a major military exercise,

01:09:42and we'll continue to review what we are doing

01:09:46as opportunities arise.

01:09:48And I expect we will have something to say about that soon.

01:09:52The EU has said that Georgia's path to joining the EU

01:09:56is largely suspended now,

01:09:58and that may be then formally reviewed

01:10:00in a couple of months.

01:10:02You asked about sanctions.

01:10:03We are actively considering our options there.

01:10:07I won't preview anything.

01:10:09But we are looking at it.

01:10:10It's not only those who benefited from corruption,

01:10:13but those who are involved in violations of human rights,

01:10:17as under the Global Magnitsky Act

01:10:19that Chairman Cardin has championed for so long.

01:10:23But all of those, we have announced a policy

01:10:27that restricts access to the United States

01:10:30already in that area.

01:10:32Two things.

01:10:34One is, it should be clear to the governing party in Georgia

01:10:39that there is a path back,

01:10:40that having free and fair elections

01:10:43without violence against civil society,

01:10:47making whatever transparency requirements they want,

01:10:51this foreign agent law,

01:10:52make it compatible with EU law

01:10:55rather than compatible with Russian law,

01:10:58and not have China develop a deep water port in Anaklia.

01:11:03These are steps that are really important

01:11:06for Georgia to take.

01:11:08Now, what can Congress do?

01:11:09I know you're developing legislation,

01:11:12and when that makes its way through the process,

01:11:15we'll, of course, work with you on this,

01:11:18just as we'll work with you

01:11:19on the broader Black Sea strategy,

01:11:20where Georgia could be an important part

01:11:22if it's a reliable partner.

01:11:25But I also, I wanna praise the effort

01:11:28of members of Congress to get out there

01:11:30and deliver the message that, on a bipartisan matter,

01:11:34longtime friends of Georgia

01:11:35believe this is the wrong path.

01:11:38A year ago, we saw signs of the wrong path,

01:11:41and then the governing party reversed its course

01:11:44and made enormous strides,

01:11:46and I'm hopeful that that can happen again

01:11:48in the next months.

01:11:50Well, thank you, I appreciate that.

01:11:52It's particularly hard to understand

01:11:55why the government is taking this approach,

01:11:57given how much of their territory

01:11:59is being occupied by Russia,

01:12:03and what I heard in the time that I was in Georgia

01:12:07was great concern about the security

01:12:10of the rest of the country from Russia,

01:12:12about the poverty and the depression

01:12:17of human dignity and benefits and rights

01:12:21that existed in South Ossetia and Abkhazia,

01:12:26and so it's really hard for me to understand

01:12:30why the government isn't listening

01:12:32to the people of Georgia who clearly don't want

01:12:35the path that they're headed down.

01:12:37And I should have mentioned,

01:12:38I think you're absolutely right,

01:12:39the one group that seems very happy

01:12:41about this turn is Russia.

01:12:43If you look at the recent statements

01:12:45by their chief propagandists,

01:12:47they are welcoming this turn,

01:12:49and Russia has moved its Black Sea fleet into Abkhazia.

01:12:53So the suggestion by the leadership

01:12:57that this is a neutral move is, I think,

01:13:00belied by what's happening.

01:13:03Senator Ricketts.

01:13:05Mr. Secretary, when you mentioned Bucha,

01:13:07you reminded me, you were talking earlier

01:13:09about the escalation from Russia in targeting civilians,

01:13:14but Putin was targeting civilians

01:13:17from the moment this war began.

01:13:19It's not an escalation for them to start firing

01:13:21at schools and hospitals and things like that.

01:13:23They've been targeting the civilian population

01:13:24since this war began, since they invaded Ukraine.

01:13:29And since the invasion of Ukraine,

01:13:31they've had this no-limits partnership with China.

01:13:34And we've seen European relations shift

01:13:37with regard to the PRC.

01:13:39However, Europe is slowly awakening to these threats

01:13:43that the PRC poses to European security,

01:13:48and understands now that they've got to de-risk.

01:13:50It's the policy to support Taiwan

01:13:51has been a little bit slower to materialize

01:13:53than some of us would hope.

01:13:56And despite the fact that PRC's malign aggression

01:13:58and hostile rhetoric towards Taiwan

01:14:00has only increased many European countries,

01:14:02are reluctant to outwardly show support for Taiwan.

01:14:06It's possible Xi takes military action

01:14:08against Taiwan this decade,

01:14:09but it still remains uncertain

01:14:11what Europe's response will be.

01:14:13And that's why I introduced the Bolster Act

01:14:15with Senator Xi Jinping,

01:14:17which aims to increase the coordination

01:14:18with the EU and European countries

01:14:21on sanctions in various Taiwan contingencies,

01:14:24and encourage stronger European support

01:14:26for Taiwan's democracy, economy, and self-defense.

01:14:30As part of her bid for a second term

01:14:32in the European Commission,

01:14:33President Ursula von der Leyen said,

01:14:36she was very clear, she said,

01:14:37she will deploy the full range of EU combined statecraft

01:14:41to deter China from unilaterally changing the status quo

01:14:44by military means, particularly over Taiwan.

01:14:47How do you assess both the EU

01:14:49and individual European governments' evolving postures

01:14:51toward the threats posed by the PRC

01:14:55and toward Taiwan?

01:14:58How do you see this going?

01:15:02Thank you, Senator.

01:15:03I'd say it's a work in progress,

01:15:06but moving the right direction.

01:15:08And I wanna thank you for your strong advocacy

01:15:12of having our European allies and partners be with us

01:15:16as we stand up against security threats in the Asia Pacific.

01:15:21So we saw at the NATO summit,

01:15:23the one session that was not about Europe

01:15:25was about the Asia Pacific

01:15:27with New Zealand, Australia, Korea, Japan there.

01:15:30And the increasing comfort and communication,

01:15:34cooperation that we'll see in those areas,

01:15:37I think will make it easier to have discussions

01:15:40about the threat posed by China.

01:15:43We obviously will stand with Taiwan.

01:15:46Our policy is very clear,

01:15:48and there's been no wavering on that.

01:15:51I think a measure of how far Europe has come

01:15:55when the Biden administration began,

01:15:58it was part of the official EU agenda

01:16:01to have a new investment treaty with China.

01:16:06And this was after years of American criticism

01:16:09of European work with China.

01:16:12That stopped soon after,

01:16:16I think in part because of strong American engagement.

01:16:19And now you have President von der Leyen

01:16:22making clear that it'll be EU policy to stand with Taiwan.

01:16:28And for that kind of a change in just a few years

01:16:32is I think a remarkable statement

01:16:34of what focused leadership and attention

01:16:37to the kinds of problems China poses can bring.

01:16:41And so what are some other things we can do

01:16:43to encourage the EU to continue down this path

01:16:46of de-risking with China?

01:16:48And what are some of the things we can do

01:16:50with NATO along the same lines?

01:16:52So for example, there had been talk

01:16:54about opening up an office, for example, in Japan

01:16:57for NATO to be able to help increase communication.

01:17:01Can you give me some examples of things

01:17:02that the administration wants to push forward

01:17:05on both the EU level and the NATO level?

01:17:08So on NATO, I think coming out of this NATO summit,

01:17:12we now have agreement

01:17:14on a much more robust Asia-Pacific engagement strategy.

01:17:17We agreed on four, we call them flagship projects,

01:17:21that will allow allies to get comfortable

01:17:24working with our key partners in the Asia-Pacific.

01:17:29And these touch on areas that may seem removed

01:17:33from the immediate kinetic threat,

01:17:35but actually are very important

01:17:37for the way that we work together.

01:17:39So areas like cyber, actually, frankly,

01:17:44battlefield medical care,

01:17:46and several other items like that.

01:17:48Whether that will turn into some institutional framework

01:17:51like an office is something we'll have to keep talking about

01:17:54within the alliance.

01:17:56With the EU, we have a really active discussion

01:18:00about the approach toward China.

01:18:01And I've already indicated one of the key markers

01:18:04is where do people look for investment?

01:18:06I think President Xi's trip to Europe this past May

01:18:10produced some reams of paper,

01:18:12but very little in the area of actual investments.

01:18:17And so keeping Chinese investment

01:18:20away from critical infrastructure,

01:18:22working toward trusted vendors,

01:18:24working with our European partners

01:18:26to develop alternatives to Chinese technology.

01:18:29I mean, one of the real problems we had

01:18:32was allowing cheap Chinese technology

01:18:34to become the industry standard,

01:18:36all the way from renewable energy to telecommunications.

01:18:39And now we're addressing that,

01:18:41and that's part of the investments

01:18:43in our own manufacturing base.

01:18:45So with that, we can show ordinary European citizens

01:18:49the benefit of bringing the jobs home, the work home,

01:18:52and keeping it in this sphere

01:18:54where we share a platform, share an agreement

01:18:58with our European partners,

01:18:59as well as Canada, Japan, Korea, Australia, New Zealand.

01:19:03That space is where we can make enormous strides

01:19:06with the EU.

01:19:09Thank you very much, Assistant Secretary O'Brien.

01:19:13I think both Senator Ricketts and I

01:19:15could spend all afternoon with questions

01:19:17and back and forth, but we won't.

01:19:19I'm willing.

01:19:21We have votes coming up soon,

01:19:23and so we will have to let you go.

01:19:26But I wanna, again, thank Ranking Member Ricketts

01:19:29for his partnership on this issue and this hearing.

01:19:33Thank you to Assistant Secretary for your testimony

01:19:38and to all of the senators who were here

01:19:39with the questions.

01:19:41The record will remain open until the end of the day

01:19:43tomorrow, Wednesday, the 31st of July.

01:19:47Again, thank you.

01:19:48This hearing is now closed.

01:19:51Thanks to you.

Jeanne Shaheen Leads Senate Foreign Relations Committee Hearing About The Future Of Europe

Category

Transcript

Recommended