Sport nedjeljom - Benjamin Perasović 18.10.2009.
Transcript
00:00Prof. Benjamin Perasovic, Sociologist, welcome to Sports Weekly.
00:13Good day.
00:15What is important, and it is extremely important for us to hear from the first hand,
00:20is an opinion, and not to be so classically open on TV,
00:24or open on TV,
00:26when the thrust of the brain is found from the police,
00:29the Croatian News Association,
00:31all those relevant officials, more or less,
00:34and then the story is half an hour long, and in principle very little is said.
00:37So we have now exclusively given the opportunity to Prof. Benjamin Perasovic
00:41because we have received the information,
00:44it is certainly accurate,
00:46very involved in the movements,
00:48views related to our fans,
00:50how to put them, where to put them,
00:52whether the latest events are followed.
00:54Escalation of, let's say,
00:57amazement in our area,
00:59and immediately the Croatia is on its feet.
01:02Yes, well, look, what you are now mentioning,
01:05it is a certain media logic.
01:08The media have their own logic.
01:11Will we call this logic the world of spectacle,
01:14or will we use terms such as sensationalism,
01:18circulation,
01:20or will we actually talk about some kind of self-censorship,
01:24or about some implicit values that go from person to person,
01:29that is, from the person who writes to the person who ordered it.
01:34So far, there are a number of different angles of view,
01:38but the fact is that often this media logic of showing things
01:42is not identical to the logic of, let's say, police evidence,
01:47and especially not to the logic of the actors who are involved in what the media is following.
01:52So sometimes we have the feeling that some kind of campaign has begun,
01:57that because of some, let's say, event
02:00that included the firing of a couple of firecrackers
02:03or some plastic tables that flew, or something like that,
02:06when one media discovers it,
02:08then it comes to what the sociologists otherwise knew
02:11to be called the snowballing effect,
02:13that is, the effect of a snowball,
02:15which when it was at the beginning was small,
02:17how it is now spinning more and more,
02:19how now every official says,
02:21look, they have this news, we don't,
02:23so you go there and do something,
02:25so you go, you go,
02:27and what I say, in the past,
02:29followed in different situations,
02:31often, in the end,
02:33is quite different from that initial small pile,
02:37or small amount of, let's say, deviation,
02:40which was at the beginning.
02:42Now, since there were some things that were in our neighborhood,
02:45and all of that,
02:46I, of course, do not think that the death of a man is something so very small,
02:49but each of us who in this story
02:51has said a long, long time ago
02:53that it is only a matter of time when someone will die,
02:56and some of us thought
02:58that if someone really dies,
03:00as was the case with, let's say, Zagreb streets,
03:02regardless of the snowball,
03:04that maybe something will change,
03:06however, nothing will change,
03:08nothing has changed,
03:10and most likely nothing will change
03:12precisely on this deviation,
03:14frequent deviation of media logic
03:16from some real logic.
03:18What is very interesting,
03:20what we were talking about,
03:22professors, but let our viewers
03:24have a look at your thoughts.
03:26Let's say, everyone,
03:28I will just go through the media,
03:30Margaret Thatcher, Iron Lady,
03:32Opala, Shaka Moskow,
03:34solved the issue of hooliganism in England,
03:36practically everyone sits there like a baby,
03:38just that Roly-Poly does not ring,
03:40all media echoes.
03:42These are those myths that are related,
03:44on the one hand, they are related to stereotypes,
03:46and when you repeat a certain stereotype
03:48a thousand times, a thousand and the first time,
03:50it has the power of reality,
03:52that is, people accept it as real.
03:54It is also related to populism,
03:56it is related to politics,
03:58often here politics is also
04:00explicitly or implicitly included
04:02in this whole story.
04:04Accordingly, why do I say
04:06politics and populism?
04:08Because in the so-called ordinary man,
04:10in today's society of risk,
04:12where interest rates are growing,
04:14where there is this whole story
04:16about the recession,
04:18where there is a whole series of insecurities
04:20about the existence of a solid ground
04:22on which a man could stand,
04:24then when he is served
04:26very problematic stories like
04:28supporters, violence,
04:30pedophilia and corruption and the like,
04:32then a man wants to build
04:34that solid ground from repression.
04:36Then he will say,
04:38eh, if we cut off every dealer's hand,
04:40we would see that the next time
04:42he went to sell drugs.
04:44Eh, if we put all those supporters
04:46on an empty island,
04:48we would see that the next time
04:50he goes to the market,
04:52he will be sold.
04:54This is something that, of course,
04:56politicians know at some point.
04:58The populist logic of playing
05:00cards, firm hands and repression,
05:02which can be entrenched in such myths
05:04that are not related to reality.
05:06Look, that story that Margaret Thatcher
05:08solved the problem of football hooliganism
05:10is simply not true.
05:12In some demonstrations,
05:14the problem of football hooliganism
05:16has long been in peace.
05:18Also, when football hooliganism
05:20began to decrease,
05:22not in all of them,
05:24but in some of its demonstrations,
05:26as a phenomenon with severe consequences,
05:28which were also used
05:30by the media in the English society,
05:32as they are sometimes
05:34in our country in this way
05:36quite superficial,
05:38the fact is that then
05:40violent scenes
05:42began to break out in places
05:44that were previously unimaginable.
05:46For example, electronic music.
05:48I, in parallel with my interest
05:50in football hooliganism,
05:52followed the scene of electronic music,
05:54which in the early 90s was called
05:56Rave in English,
05:58and then you have about 3-4 years
06:00of complete peace, so to speak.
06:02And then, just in this period,
06:04when they talk about how violence
06:06is decreasing in football stadiums,
06:08you have violence when parties
06:10around clubs, around taxi stands,
06:12which are still open at that time,
06:14which, for example, was previously unimaginable.
06:16So, the story that someone
06:18rooted out violence,
06:20that it was solved,
06:22we cannot support,
06:24even if we think in our own heads.
06:26Tell me, I'm curious,
06:28what happened?
06:30I mean, we must be aware of the fact
06:32that now in English stadiums
06:34it really looks like everyone
06:36is licking their faces
06:38and there are no problems.
06:40But in stadiums it is not.
06:42What happened?
06:44It happened, on the one hand,
06:46by spreading surveillance,
06:48repression, restrictive measures,
06:50and on the other hand,
06:52by great commercialization
06:54and raising the price of tickets.
06:56So, you can do what,
06:58for example, the West stand,
07:00in Zagreb or Split,
07:02in general, the West stand is always
07:04the most scopelistic,
07:06you can try to expand that paradigm
07:08and you can create
07:10some kind of a show
07:12in the stadium,
07:14if you work hard enough,
07:16and if there is still
07:18commercialization
07:20and television
07:22of your own matches,
07:24then you will be able
07:26to solve a certain group
07:28of hooligans.
07:30That does not mean
07:32that you have removed
07:34violence from society,
07:36but you can do that.
07:38And I say that in parallel,
07:40on the one hand,
07:42by repression and restrictions,
07:44but also, on the other hand,
07:46by the quality of the game,
07:48commercialization,
07:50and very high prices of tickets.
07:52That is what happened
07:54in one period in England.
07:56It was exactly on this topic
07:58yesterday, absolutely,
08:00the stadium was burning
08:02because of the attack
08:04that our government
08:06and Parliament
08:08spoke a few days earlier.
08:10Yes, as you have noticed
08:12in the studio,
08:14it is quite logical
08:16to expect that a part
08:18of young people,
08:20and that part
08:22which otherwise
08:24would not participate
08:26in some scandals
08:28for Dom Spremni,
08:30Ubisrbina and so on,
08:32will be the main
08:34violation of the symbolic
08:36order of society,
08:38and how will people
08:40mobilize to see that,
08:42as it was a year ago,
08:44or somewhere there,
08:46a discussion about the call
08:48for Dom Spremni and so on.
08:50Of course, I do not want
08:52to say that such a scandal
08:54should be favored now,
08:56I just want to say
08:58that such things are expected
09:00to be easy to read,
09:02or rather simple concepts.
09:04Accepting that all the fans
09:06are rapists, that all the fans
09:08are hooligans, means not knowing
09:10the whole thing, and then
09:12either you benefit from it,
09:14or in some way you approach it
09:16politically, or I do not know
09:18from which all directions
09:20you approach it, but the fact
09:22is that the world of fans is complex,
09:24that only a small part of people
09:26who are included in the fan core
09:28already for a long time
09:30at the level of the state
09:32and state institutions, on the one hand,
09:34and the fans, a monologue
09:36policy is taking place,
09:38with the fact that the actors of the state
09:40are, let's say, in some way
09:42and society are older, they should
09:44be more responsible, and they should
09:46be the ones who will show a desire
09:48for dialogue, because you cannot
09:50on the basis of one group of people
09:52who are rapist-oriented, generalize
09:54the whole fan movement
09:56a movement that we can call
09:58a subculture of football fans
10:00football fans as a
10:02preferred lifestyle, and so on
10:04go with them
10:06in repression
10:08without dialogue, I think
10:10that much more could be done
10:12with contact with the fans, but
10:14here the results are
10:16weak, especially short-term
10:18here you have to go long-term
10:20and people usually have quick solutions
10:22because of what I told you in the introduction
10:24politicians have to react to what they
10:26consider to be the pulse of the public
10:28the public is already so
10:30conditioned, considering the media
10:32construction, to expect a quick and effective
10:34action, which then you do, you create
10:36new laws, you go into a greater
10:38repression, however, this repression
10:40then now unfolds over
10:42the Bengals, we then talk about
10:44the call for a house ready
10:46or the killing of a Serb, and we do not
10:48talk about the fact that maybe there are some
10:50people who are ready to carry a knife and a gun
10:52and who are ready to stab someone with a knife
10:54or shoot from a gun
10:56to go to a conversation
10:58with the fans, to cooperate
11:00with the fans, and to give them something
11:02is it the Bengals or not,
11:04are we laughing because of UEFA or not
11:06that's a separate story, but to give people something
11:08then you can ask for something from them
11:10then you ask for differentiation
11:12among the fans
11:14that those people who are not ready
11:16to stab a man with a knife
11:18turn their backs to those who are
11:20ready, but while you have the generalization
11:22of the fans, then those who would never
11:24stab anyone with a knife
11:26will not participate in this
11:28destruction of the symbolic order
11:30and will participate in the scandal
11:32precisely because they feel
11:34their kind of perversion
11:36putting the fans in the foreground
11:38as a social problem and the whole story
11:40about privatization, about thousands
11:42and thousands of families who are left without a job
11:44about factories that are so privatized
11:46and resold, people are aware
11:48of the disproportionality
11:50between the attention they get
11:52and then they will be given
11:54even more attention when
11:56next time something will be scandalized
11:58but what is important
12:00are there such fans
12:02somewhere in some text we read
12:04that it was written, mentioned
12:06fans are a symbol of society
12:08can that be used
12:10as a syntagma
12:12fans as fans, that's maybe a little
12:14tight, but that sport is a social phenomenon
12:16a social construct, a social creation
12:18and that what happens in sport
12:20and around sport
12:22and how it has to do with society
12:24and that it is inseparable from society
12:26I am ready to defend it, I really consider it a sociological fact
12:28when and how it can be
12:30a picture, it still depends on the context
12:32because as one of my students says
12:34when what would be
12:36scandalized
12:38and a part of the approach
12:40that the fans had, for example, in the time of Yugoslavia
12:42before the collapse of Yugoslavia
12:44if now a parallel would be drawn
12:46then someone could say
12:48that there will be a separation, I don't know
12:50Dalmatia from North Croatia
12:52which I think is not on the agenda
12:54and then in Yugoslavia there was a separation
12:56on the agenda, so if now
12:58too literally and superficially
13:00it would be said, aha, football stadiums
13:02were then a piece of paper for society
13:04so the collapse of Yugoslavia
13:06could be much easier to predict
13:08by going to football matches
13:10than by reading sociological books about the crisis in Yugoslavia
13:12which I think is true
13:14we would not be able to apply
13:16that parallel analogy again
13:18and then go to a few of our stadiums
13:20and gather a few Scandinavians
13:22and say, eh, the Croatian society
13:24will fall apart because of this and that
13:26it is not possible to make it that simple
13:28but that in certain moments
13:30a football stadium can be
13:32a piece of paper for society
13:34especially in societies where, as was the case
13:36in the one-party system
13:38institutionalization of political
13:40differences, where people use the stadium
13:42to say something that
13:44otherwise they could not or should not say
13:46then it is normal to approach
13:48something more
13:50Let's answer the lady who asked
13:52why football is that number one
13:54football on the one hand
13:56has that tradition
13:58English sociologists themselves have written
14:00hundreds of books about the culture
14:02of the working class or the culture of the lower
14:04layers of society
14:06we could say from our perspective
14:08socialization, masculinization
14:10and similar
14:12however, I just have to say something
14:14when the main concepts
14:16such as identity or movement
14:18and even some human needs
14:20when we look at these concepts
14:22regardless of the sport
14:24then we will see
14:26that young people who
14:28experience identification
14:30with their city, with their region
14:32or with their state
14:34in this case in Croatia
14:36will know where
14:38this identification is possible
14:40and how to fill this ice court
14:42which the lady now mentions
14:44as a court that is more
14:46on such fan clubs
14:48and how this ice court will be full
14:50as in the rest
14:52there were a lot of funerals and ski trails
14:54where fans came from Bengal
14:56because Janica had the opportunity
14:58to raise the Croatian flag
15:00to hear the anthem
15:02so anywhere and in any sport
15:04water polo or
15:06in the end Ivanisevic
15:08when he won Wimbledon
15:10and for tennis it was at least
15:12an individual sport
15:14so it has nothing to do
15:16with this referendum
15:18and it is from some narrow squares
15:20to national states
15:22the possibility of identification
15:24is it a region
15:26is it Zagreb, Zagreb quarter
15:28is it Dalmatia, is it Croatia
15:30it will differ from a certain club
15:32or from a sport to a sport
15:34but that square will remain
15:36for expressing that type of pride
15:38or confirmation of identification
15:40because as I said before
15:42moderate concern
15:44not only about football hooliganism
15:46but violence among young people
15:48is a concern that is expressed through prevention
15:50and a concern that arises now
15:52and in the next 10-20 years
15:54a concern that goes long-term
15:56a concern that is then able to split money
15:58for some kind of street
16:00a concern that goes alternatively
16:02as you want to call it, social work
16:04a concern that is about reducing damage
16:06a concern that is about dialogue
16:08with actors who are considered
16:10problematic
16:12and not excluding those actors
16:14look, things have gone so far
16:16that we, the fans
16:18approach and look
16:20always and everywhere
16:22on the basis of stereotypes
16:24it happens to you that you have Croatian citizens
16:26of whom some
16:28live permanently in Croatia
16:30and of whom some are 60 years old
16:32and are successful businessmen in Vienna
16:34and who went to watch
16:36a match in Žilina
16:38who were exposed to unseen violence
16:40who were held on concrete for 10 hours
16:42tied hands on their backs
16:44to whom euros and kuna
16:46were literally taken
16:48so stolen from the cash register
16:50where people are rejuvenated
16:52absolutely without any reason
16:54and after what could happen to you
16:56to us or to anyone else
16:58the Croatian state is speaking
17:00to Slovakia
17:02try to imagine that you have experienced
17:04that you have experienced torture
17:06that you did not even blink
17:08did not provoke anyone
17:10and then your state, instead of raising
17:12a complete friction
17:14is still speaking
17:16because you were not convicted
17:18why is that?
17:20now I said why
17:22because we have created a stereotype
17:24that people are hooligans
17:26and then when the fans
17:28in this case it was the fans of Hajduk
17:30when they experienced what they experienced
17:32in Žilina
17:34then immediately after the first recordings
17:36and after the first news about it
17:38our state went to talk
17:40instead of asking for responsibility
17:42and to make a sharp note to Slovakia
17:44because of what was happening there
17:46can it be political slavery?
17:48I don't know what it is
17:50I tell you how I call it
17:52based on the stereotype
17:54and not based on reality
17:56according to whom is it slavery
17:58and when
18:00what I am interested in
18:02is that
18:04in recent times
18:06is it a stage
18:08to be a fan
18:10means to have a job
18:12or to be employed
18:14or to be in one stream
18:16unlike what happened in Split
18:18under the old walls
18:20in Maksimir or in Kranjčević
18:22when it comes to love and heart
18:24commercialization is evident
18:26although Croatia
18:28and Croatian football
18:30now someone will say it is a pity
18:32and someone will say it is a luck
18:34but definitely it didn't catch
18:36Western European society
18:38is and it is
18:40really a process
18:42that is already taking place
18:44within the legality of the world of show
18:46and it is really a big business
18:48and I say that it is always
18:50on the edge of the game
18:52and it is much nicer for me
18:54to watch the match of the league of champions
18:56than the average match of the Croatian league
18:58we have nothing to talk about
19:00but when you say
19:02that it is still not like that
19:04and people can still
19:06find themselves
19:08like unemployed people
19:10who are a little outside
19:12the circulation of money
19:14however, the thing is
19:16someone calls it a hobby
19:18someone calls it an extreme hobby
19:20someone calls it a subculture
19:22the thing is maybe passion and love
19:24if you want to speak in those terms
19:26that someone spends a large part
19:28of their money or savings
19:30on something that is
19:32completely meaningless to someone
19:34for someone it is traveling to concerts
19:36for someone it is help to abandoned animals
19:38who are really too many
19:40and who only show
19:42how people behave towards each other
19:44and for someone it is
19:46a football, a trip and a guest
19:48so someone will give a large
19:50if not the largest part
19:52of their money for that
19:54and someone else will say
19:56I don't get it
19:58so inside these
20:00already commercialized parameters
20:02of football you still have people
20:04as sociologists would say
20:06from the working class
20:08or from the lower layers of society
20:10who are in the middle of everything
20:12and some say
20:14you are talking about unemployed
20:16and people from the lower layers of society
20:18and to go to a match
20:20you have to have a lot of money
20:22What are our fans?
20:24Belovojci, Torcida, Armada
20:26you have studied
20:28their behavior
20:30where would you put them?
20:32Are they extreme?
20:34Look, even inside
20:36that core
20:38that you can say
20:40wait a minute
20:42there are the so called
20:44ordinary fans
20:46but there are also
20:48ultras and hooligans
20:50and they will make
20:52some differences
20:54among themselves
20:56there are people who
20:58really don't care
21:00if they are not at the stadium
21:02but hang in their quarters
21:04and wait for you
21:06and give you something small
21:08there is one structure
21:10for which the whole society
21:12is responsible
21:14that structure is not the
21:16Palace of Mars
21:18but even in the core of the fans
21:20that structure is not
21:22absolutely dominant
21:24there are people who
21:26are into scenography
21:28and iconography
21:30there are different parameters
21:32to which the fans
21:34evaluate their own success
21:36Belovojci, Torcida
21:38and Armada
21:40according to many
21:42different parameters
21:44they are good
21:46inside the world of fans
21:48some people
21:50like those parameters
21:52and some people
21:54like the atmosphere
21:56and as you know
21:58both of us
22:00have a lot
22:02those groups also differ
22:04in the course of time
22:06there is a change of generation
22:08Torcida
22:10in the middle of the 90s
22:12and in the second half of the 90s
22:14was less
22:16violent
22:18because
22:20some older people
22:22and some other things
22:24that happened
22:26and it was only a matter of time
22:28when the younger generation
22:30will take a step
22:32then it happened
22:34that when there was
22:36a change of generation
22:38in Torcida
22:40and when there were
22:42riots on the match
22:44Hajduk-Dinamo
22:46then of course
22:48our context
22:50which is always
22:52a political context
22:54regardless of the fact
22:56that we are now
22:58a multi-party system
23:00in Torcida
23:02it has nothing to do
23:04with secret services
23:06is there a possibility
23:08of manipulation?
23:10of course there is
23:12there is always a possibility
23:14of manipulation
23:16with you as journalists
23:18there is always a possibility
23:20of manipulation
23:22but it does not mean
23:24that this manipulation
23:26is so strong
23:28that the processes
23:30that are inherent
23:32to either you as a local TV
23:34or Torcida or Bad Blue Boys
23:36as a local fan group
23:38will be completely destroyed
23:40now.