It’s been 27 years since the handover of Hong Kong from the United Kingdom to the People’s Republic of China. Activists say Beijing has already broken all of the promises it made to Hong Kong at the time regarding political autonomy.
In this episode of Zoom In Zoom Out, TaiwanPlus reporter Tiffany Wong sits down with Terrence Law, a Hong Kong activist in exile now living in Taiwan. We first zoom in on the state of Hong Kong’s civil society today, then zoom out to draw connections between Hong Kong and Taiwan.
In this episode of Zoom In Zoom Out, TaiwanPlus reporter Tiffany Wong sits down with Terrence Law, a Hong Kong activist in exile now living in Taiwan. We first zoom in on the state of Hong Kong’s civil society today, then zoom out to draw connections between Hong Kong and Taiwan.
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00:00Welcome to Zoom In Zoom Out, your global look at news from Taiwan.
00:16I'm Tiffany Wong.
00:18July 1st marks the 27th anniversary of Hong Kong's handover from the UK to China.
00:24But what does that mean for Hong Kong society today?
00:26To discuss this, we're joined by Terence Law, a Hong Kong activist in exile now living
00:31in Taiwan.
00:32Terence, welcome to the show.
00:34Thanks for having me.
00:35Nice to meet you.
00:36Let's first zoom in.
00:37Can you describe what kind of activities would happen on the anniversary of the handover
00:42in Hong Kong?
00:43Usually, after the handover in 1997, we got a rally, a demonstration on the Hong Kong
00:50island.
00:51Usually, after I'm 12 years old, my parents always took me into the rally every year.
00:58However, this kind of rally already disappeared because of the NSL and the highly oppression
01:03by the Hong Kong government.
01:04So it's so sad that as a Hong Konger, I cannot participate in it anymore.
01:10Could you tell us a little bit more about what you've been hearing from Hong Kongers
01:13still living in Hong Kong, you know, leading up to the handover anniversary?
01:19Are they planning any kind of demonstration or, you know, what is the feeling like for
01:23them?
01:24I'll say after National Security Law and Article 23, local Hong Kongers already feel some kind
01:32of nostalgia, actually, like their Hong Kong experience before the 2019 is already gone.
01:40But they can do nothing to finding back this Hong Kong before 2019.
01:46So the nostalgia of them is very ridiculous because they are still living in Hong Kong.
01:52But that kind of feeling is, I think, inevitable.
01:56Now you were born after the handover happened, so you've always been living under Chinese
02:00Hong Kong.
02:01Now, have you noticed any generational differences when you speak with older people?
02:07The generation gap is bigger than all of us imagined.
02:12Actually, the elder generation, the elderly, usually they still believe in the one country,
02:18two systems.
02:19But like the younger generation, especially our generation, or we call it a localist generation,
02:25we usually don't believe in the one country, two systems anymore.
02:29And that's also my fault.
02:31So you mentioned one country, two systems, which is this idea that Hong Kong was promised
02:35political and economic autonomy from China within the 50 years following the handover.
02:42Has China followed through with that?
02:44What does that look like now?
02:45Actually, I think all of us noticed that the promises given by the Chinese government
02:51are already broken.
02:53They broke their promises already.
02:56They originally promised us that the one country, two systems can let Hong Kongers rule Hong
03:00Kong.
03:01However, we cannot elect our own president or legislator, and we have no more freedom
03:08of speech, freedom of rallies, et cetera, and publish.
03:13And furthermore, our economies got worse and worse because of China's governing.
03:20The whole international society didn't believe Hong Kong as an autonomous city.
03:25Therefore, the economic status is getting lower and lower of Hong Kong.
03:30So the China government, all of the promises given by the Chinese government are all broken.
03:36So Beijing imposed a national security law in 2020 to stifle those anti-extradition protests
03:43in Hong Kong, and they've recently expanded that law in something known as Article 23.
03:48What is that, and could you tell us what it means for Hong Kong society?
03:52So Article 23 was a new legal weapon that was legislated by the Hong Kong government.
03:59That Article 23 expands the power of the Hong Kong government.
04:04They can sanction more and more Hong Kong citizens, even though if you flee into exile
04:09in a foreign country.
04:10I think Article 23 creates a white terror, even more terrible than the national security law.
04:18A lot of Hong Kong citizens that still live in local Hong Kong, they tell me that because
04:24of Article 23, they cancelled the subscription, the patron subscription for those foreign
04:30political organizations, because they're afraid that this would become evidence for
04:34their crime evidence.
04:37And so now is the Hong Kong government basically equal to the Chinese government?
04:42Yeah, I would say yes.
04:44So how have these crackdowns affected the Hong Kongers?
04:47Are people leaving Hong Kong now?
04:48Yeah, due to the freedom of speech, due to the environment nowadays in Hong Kong, a lot
04:54of Hong Kongers are fleeing into exile out of Hong Kong.
04:58For example, nowadays in Taiwan, already 50,000 people coming to immigrants in Taiwan.
05:04And a lot of us, like younger generation, they are fleeing into exile.
05:09For me, it's an example because I participated in the civil society work in Hong Kong after
05:142019.
05:15I participated in the student union, student movement.
05:18Some police officer came to my house and arrested me, and I have to flee into exile.
05:23These kind of situations happens and happens nowadays in Hong Kong.
05:27In the past decade, there were the 2014 Umbrella Movement, as well as the 2019 anti-extradition
05:33protests in Hong Kong.
05:34Could you tell us more about how Hong Kong society has evolved?
05:39Especially on the 2019 anti-extradition bill movement, the whole Hong Kong society has
05:45been mobilized, come into on the street.
05:48Because of this mobilization, the Hong Kong government feel the anxiety.
05:53They can no longer rule the Hong Kong society peacefully, so they decided to use very brutal
05:58police force to fight against this civil society's movement.
06:03And because of that, I would say the whole civil society of Hong Kong already died.
06:06A lot of political party being dissolved, even student union, like my student union,
06:12Chinese university student union, are being dissolved because of the repression given
06:17by the Hong Kong government.
06:18Due to the repression and the oppression, the whole civil society is already dead.
06:24And even though those are not dead yet, they flee into exile because of the government.
06:31You said that Hong Kong civil society is dead.
06:34So does it exist anywhere else outside of Hong Kong?
06:37Even though the local, original, local civil society of Hong Kong is dead, but it's also
06:43alive in a subtle way.
06:45The political industry is dead for sure, but the cultural industry is still alive and
06:51getting more and more and developing very well.
06:53It would become a very important base of future democratic movement of Hong Kong.
06:59And of course, exile or diaspora democratic movement is still going on, for example, myself
07:05as an example.
07:09Now let's zoom out to Taiwan.
07:11Taiwan has been another target of China's aggression as it seeks to stifle supporters
07:17of Taiwan independence and sovereignty.
07:20So as a Hong Konger living in Taiwan, what do you think of Taiwan's situation?
07:24I would say after 2019, Hong Kong already become a very good demonstration and example
07:31for Taiwan people, knowing that the Chinese government are unreliable.
07:37Because like all of the promises given by the Chinese government are already broken.
07:42So I would say no matter what party you believe in, what party you joined, you participated
07:48in, the consensus of Taiwanese people is that Chinese government, all of the promises of
07:53Chinese government are unreliable.
07:55So even though you believe that in, for example, KMT or whatever, those kind of more pro-China
08:03party, I would say that their field towards China has already changed because of Hong Kong.
08:11In June, China threatened to give the death penalty to diehard Taiwan independence leaders.
08:17This caused Taiwan's government to raise its travel warning for China, but also Hong Kong
08:22and Macau.
08:23Now Hong Kong's government has said that this is smearing its national security law.
08:28Do you think that there's really a worry for Taiwanese trying to travel to these places?
08:33Yeah, I think definitely.
08:35The new bill of anti-spy bill, I think, in China is already, would be occur in first
08:42of July, I think.
08:44So the Chinese government and the Hong Kong government have the right, have the power
08:48to search your phone, to search your different electronic devices.
08:53So this will become a very dangerous travel if you go to Hong Kong or China.
08:58Even if you're not an activist or not an active leader in political movement.
09:04Do you think China would really follow through with these punishments, including the death penalty?
09:08I think China government would do that if they have you, yeah, if they really arrested
09:16those kind of leaders.
09:17Now Taiwan isn't under the same one country, two systems rule that Hong Kong has promised,
09:24but it's been able to exist as an independent country.
09:27How else do you think Taiwan's situation is different from Hong Kong's?
09:31And how can Taiwan protect its democratic values?
09:34Because of the de facto independence status of Taiwan, I think Taiwan at least have the
09:40opportunity to strengthen their own national security or economic security, and it will
09:47become a very good weapon towards China's inflation in the future.
09:52So I do think that, for example, the national security, the economic security, et cetera,
09:57this kind of legal weapon have to strengthen.
10:00For example, that the censorship of Chinese capital, if Chinese capital want to come into
10:05Taiwan, want to come into Taiwan, the censorship of that need to be strengthened.
10:10That kind of opportunity is very important for Taiwan.
10:13Otherwise it will become like Hong Kong, because Hong Kong have no such right or power to do
10:19the censorship that allow Chinese capital to get into Hong Kong or not.
10:24So the whole Hong Kong society become infiltrated very heavily.
10:30Now as a Hong Konger living in Taiwan, both places being under threat from China, do you
10:36feel a sense of camaraderie with Taiwanese people, or how do you feel that Hong Kongers
10:41are perceived in Taiwan?
10:43Actually I think over the past hundred years, Hong Kongers and Taiwanese are always allies.
10:51For example, in the white terror period in Taiwan, a lot of activists would flee into
10:56exile into Hong Kong before they go to other countries for safety.
11:02But nowadays the things got really interesting that Hong Kong people flee into exile into
11:07Taiwan.
11:08So I have always feel that kind of sense of camaraderie of Taiwanese people, because
11:14like we're fighting for democracy.
11:17Even though a hundred years ago we are fighting against different enemies, but we are also
11:23fighting against for the same values.
11:25So this kind of sense of allies or camaraderie always exist in Taiwan daily living.
11:31I have found a very strong Hong Kong community in Taiwan here, and I have always feel that
11:37the Taiwanese community are very inclusive.
11:40So this kind of like show a very good welcome to Hong Kong communities.
11:46I've always thankful about that.
11:48With a lot of Hong Kongers seeking asylum or seeking to move to Taiwan, is there anything
11:53you think Taiwan can do better to help Hong Kongers and stand with Hong Kong?
11:59I think the Taiwan government should definitely prepare for the refugee law that are upcoming.
12:05A lot of CFO organization recently opened a press conference that called for Taiwan's
12:11government to legislate such bill.
12:14And I think such bill or such law would definitely help Hong Kong's people, especially those
12:19in need.
12:20Many of the protest movements in Hong Kong were led by student leaders like yourself.
12:25And now you're a student in Taiwan.
12:27Do you see that same level of political participation in young Taiwanese youth?
12:32I don't feel the same level compared to Hong Kong youth and Taiwan's youth.
12:37I always say that the Hong Kong youth, especially in 2019, highly mobilized it.
12:44But the reason of that, it's very clear that because 2019 is the last fight of Hong Kong.
12:51But when we're speaking into like Taiwan's society, of course there is not the last fight.
12:58For example, the Blue Bird operation recently, a lot of youth being mobilized it, a lot of
13:06youngsters being mobilized to go on the street.
13:08However, they know that, or all of us know that, even though the bill is already passed,
13:14but this is not the last fight.
13:15The fight is still going on in the court, or the fight is still going on on the street
13:21in the future.
13:22So even though the Blue Bird operation mobilized a lot of Taiwan youth, but they still have
13:29a lot of youngsters who know that this is not the last fight.
13:32So they didn't participate in it.
13:34But if the situation gets worse, I think a lot of young generations would come on the street.
13:42So it's that sense of urgency in Hong Kong, but not in Taiwan.
13:45Yeah, yeah, definitely.
13:47So now you've been here in Taiwan for two years, do you have any hope of going back
13:51to Hong Kong in the future?
13:53Yeah, I do got such hope.
13:57Even though my hair is white, or even though I have a lot of children, I think if I got
14:04the opportunity, I would definitely go back to Hong Kong.
14:09If the day is like 50 years after, I'm still fighting for it.
14:13Yeah, I hope so.
14:14Thank you so much for joining us today, Terrence.
14:16It was great to have you on our show.
14:18Thank you, Tiffany.
14:20This has been Zoom In Zoom Out.
14:22For more stories from Taiwan Plus News, you can follow us on our social media.
14:26Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you next time.