Amanpour & Co. - June 13, 2024
Nathalie Tocci and Thierry Arnaud discuss the latest from this week’s G7 meeting in Italy. Actress Julia Louis-Dreyfus and director Daina O. Pusić explore grief and love in their film “Tuesday.” Journalist Nicholas Kristof talks about his new memoir “Chasing Hope: A Reporter’s Life” and how he remains hopeful through his reporting on life’s darkest moments.
Transcript
00:04>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME
00:05TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
00:06HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
00:10RIDING HIGH ON HER ELECTION WIN,
00:13ITALY'S POPULIST PRIME MINISTER
00:19GIORGIA MELONI WELCOMES THE MOST
00:21POWERFUL LEADERS TO PUGLIA.
00:23WE'RE AT A TURNING POINT.
00:25>>> I DON'T KNOW WHAT I AM
00:26WITHOUT YOU, WHO I AM WITHOUT
00:28YOU.
00:29I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE WORLD IS
00:30WITHOUT YOU IN IT.
00:32>> THE QUEEN OF COMEDY JULIA
00:35LOUIS-DREYFUS GETS SERIOUS IN
00:37HER NEW MOVIE "TUESDAY."
00:39THE ACTRESS AND THE FILM'S
00:41DIRECTOR JOIN ME.
00:42>>> PLUS --
00:43>> SIDE BY SIDE WORST OF
00:45HUMANITY, YOU IN LIFE INVARIABLY
00:47FIND THE VERY BEST.
00:48>> "CHASING HOPE: A REPORTER'S
00:51LIFE."
00:51JOURNALIST NICHOLAS KRISTOF
00:56TELLS WALTER ISAACSON HOW HE
00:58FINDS LIGHT IN THE DARKEST
00:59CORNERS.
01:09>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE
01:10POSSIBLE BY --
01:13THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT
01:16JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS
01:18CANDACE KING WEIR
01:20THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA
01:21AND MICKEY STRAUS
01:24MARK J. BLECHNER
01:26THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO
01:26FOUNDATION
01:29SETON J. MELVIN
01:30CHARLES ROSENBLUM
01:34KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED
01:35TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES
01:36IN OUR COMMUNITIES
01:39BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG
01:42ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY
01:43THESE FUNDERS AND BY
01:45CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS
01:46STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
01:47THANK YOU.
01:54>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
01:55EVERYONE.
01:55I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN
01:56LONDON.
01:58TODAY IN ITALY, G7 LEADERS HAVE
02:01AGREED TO LONE KYIV ABOUT $50
02:03BILLION BACKED BY THE PROFITS
02:05FROM RUSSIA'S FROZEN
02:07INVESTMENTS.
02:07IT'S BEEN A BANNER WEEK FOR THE
02:09SUMMIT HOST, ITALY'S PRIME
02:14MINISTER GIORGIA MELONI, FRESH
02:16OFF A BIG WIN IN FAR RIGHT
02:19ELECTIONS.
02:19BUT THAT'S NOT ALL.
02:21MELONI HAS ALSO INVITED A SLEW
02:23OF OTHER POWER PLAYERS LIKE
02:26UKRAINE'S PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR
02:27ZELENSKYY, INDIA'S PRESIDENT
02:32NARENDRA MODI AND CYRIL
02:34RAMAPHOSA.
02:34AN EMBOLDENED MELONI STANDS IN
02:38STARK CONTRAST TO HER
02:40COUNTERPARTS LIKE FRANCE'S
02:41EMMANUEL MACRON AND GERMANY'S
02:43OLAF SCHOLZ AFTER THEY TOOK A
02:45BEATING FROM THE FAR RIGHT THIS
02:47WEEKEND.
02:48NONETHELESS, THERE ARE IMPORTANT
02:48ISSUES TO HASH OUT, AND TOP OF
02:50AGENDA IS OF COURSE UKRAINE AND
02:51GAZA.
02:52I'M JOINED BY NATHALIE TOCCI,
02:54POLITICAL SCIENTIST AND FORMER
02:55ADVISER TO THE EU'S FOREIGN
02:57POLICY CHIEF, ALONG WITH THIERRY
03:04ARNAUD, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT FOR
03:08BMTV.
03:08WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU AND
03:09THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.
03:11NATHALIE, CAN I START WITH YOU
03:13FIRST?
03:13BECAUSE IN ITALY AT THE G7, THEY
03:15ACTUALLY DID AGREE TO MAKE THIS
03:17LOAN TO KYIV BASED ON RUSSIAN
03:19FROZEN ASSETS.
03:20NOW RUSSIA IS FURIOUS.
03:21IT SAYS THERE WILL BE PAINFUL
03:23RETALIATORY MEASURES.
03:24HOW SIGNIFICANT IS THIS MOMENT
03:25FOR UKRAINE, NATHALIE?
03:29>> WELL, I MEAN, OF COURSE,
03:32CHRISTIANE, THIS AGREEMENT HAD
03:33BEEN IN THE PIPELINE FOR QUITE
03:34SOME TIME.
03:35AND THE U.S. HAD BEEN PUSHING
03:36FOR IT FOR QUITE SOME TIME.
03:38IT WAS ACTUALLY THE EUROPEAN
03:39COUNTRIES THAT HAD BEEN
03:41RESISTING.
03:43AND IT ESSENTIALLY, THE REASON
03:46WHY IT'S MAINLY THE EUROPEANS
03:49THAT HAVE BEEN CAVING IN THE
03:53SENSE OF CONTRIBUTING TO
03:59PROVIDING THE GUARANTEE TO THE
03:59GUARANTEE, THE BIG QUESTION IS
04:01WHAT IF THE GUARANTEE THAT IS
04:02PROVIDED BY THOSE RUSSIAN ASSETS
04:04WERE TO SOMEHOW NO LONGER BE
04:07AVAILABLE, FOR INSTANCE, BECAUSE
04:08OF A QUOTE, UNQUOTE PEACE
04:10AGREEMENT, THEN WHO WOULD
04:13ACTUALLY GUARANTEE THAT
04:14GUARANTEE?
04:14AND FOR A LONG TIME, THERE WAS
04:17HAGGLING OVER THIS POINT.
04:19IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT'S MAINLY
04:21BEEN THE EUROPEANS THAT HAVE
04:22BEEN BACKTRACKING ON SOME OF
04:23THEIR RESISTANCE.
04:24AND I ACTUALLY THINK THAT THE
04:25REASON WHY THIS IS HAPPENING IS
04:27BECAUSE OF A GROWING FEAR THAT
04:30IF THE AGREEMENT IS NOT REACHED
04:32NOW, THEN IT COULD BE A LOT
04:34HARDER TO REACH IN A FEW MONTHS'
04:36TIME, ESPECIALLY IF THE
04:38ELECTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES
04:39WERE TO SEE A RETURN OF DONALD
04:41TRUMP TO THE WHITE HOUSE.
04:41SO IN A SENSE, CASH IN WHATEVER
04:44AGREEMENT YOU CAN GET IN NOW,
04:46BECAUSE THE FUTURE MAY ACTUALLY
04:47BE FAR MORE TROUBLED.
04:49SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, ALTHOUGH
04:50OF COURSE IT'S AN EXTREMELY
04:52POSITIVE DEVELOPMENT THAT THIS
04:56AGREEMENT HAS BEEN REACHED, IT'S
04:58BEEN IN THE PIPELINE FOR PERHAPS
04:59A LITTLE TOO LONG, IT'S BEEN A
05:01LONG TIME IN THE MAKING.
05:02BUT THE REASON WHY IT ACTUALLY
05:04ENDED UP IN THIS FINAL SQUEEZE
05:05IS BECAUSE OF A FEAR THAT IN
05:07FUTURE THINGS COULD GET FAR
05:08NASTIER.
05:09>> WELL, LET ME TURN TO YOU,
05:12THIERRY ARNAUD, BECAUSE IN
05:13FRANCE, FOR INSTANCE YOU HAVE
05:15THIS FAR RIGHT SURGE.
05:17WOULD A PRIME MINISTER BARDELLA
05:19OR A PRESIDENT Le PEN, WOULD
05:22THEY, YOU KNOW, PUT THE BRAKES
05:23ON THIS KIND OF THING?
05:24BECAUSE AS YOU KNOW, MANY OF THE
05:25FAR RIGHT LEADERS, INCLUDING Le
05:28PEN AND OTHERS HAVE BEEN
05:30CRITICIZED FOR THEIR CLOSE LINKS
05:30TO VLADIMIR PUTIN.
05:34>> THEY HAVE INDEED.
05:35THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS OVER
05:38THE PAST FEW WEEKS AND MONTH,
05:39THEIR POSITION HAS MOVED TOWARDS
05:41A MORE UKRAINE FRIENDLY
05:44ATTITUDE.
05:44THEY WERE BASICALLY OPPOSING ANY
05:46KIND OF AID, WHETHER MILITARY OR
05:49FINANCIAL FOR UKRAINE INITIALLY.
05:51BUT THEY'VE COME A LONG WAYS
05:53SINCE THEN.
05:54AND AS MUCH AS THEY HAVE
05:56DISAPPROVED THE PRESIDENT'S
05:57LATEST MOVES, FOR EXAMPLE,
05:59PROVIDING FIGHTER JETS TO
06:02UKRAINE, AS IS PROMISED TO DO IN
06:03TRAINING THE PILOTS AS WELL BY
06:05THE END OF THE YEAR, HE ALSO
06:07TALKED ABOUT DEPLOYING FRENCH
06:12MILITARY IN UKRAINE, THE WAY
06:14THEY WOULD LIKE TO DO IT IS PART
06:16OF A EUROPEAN COALITION.
06:16BUT ON THOSE TWO SPECIFIC
06:20ASPECTS, OBVIOUSLY NEITHER
06:24MARINE Le PEN WOULD APPROVE OF
06:25THAT AND SIGN OFF ON IT.
06:27BUT WHEN IT COMES TO FINANCIALLY
06:29SUPPORTING UKRAINE OR PROVIDING
06:30SOME KIND OF MILITARY EQUIPMENT,
06:33THEY ARE NOW MUCH MORE OPEN TO
06:34THIS THAN THEY WERE ONLY A FEW
06:37WEEKS AGO.
06:38>> I WANT TO COME BACK TO MORE
06:40ON MACRON AND MORE ON HIS
06:43POLITICAL ISSUES RIGHT NOW.
06:44FIRST, I WANT TO ASK IN
06:47REPUTATION TO GIORGIA MELONI,
06:49NATHALIE, SOME OF THE EDITORIALS
06:50HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT THIS G7 IS
06:54SIX LAME DUCKS AND GIORGIA
06:55MELONI.
06:56IN OTHER WORDS, AS WE KNOW, MANY
06:57OF THE LEADERS THERE TOOK A REAL
07:02DRUBBING.
07:03DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT IMAGE,
07:04AND THAT SHE NOW IS REALLY
07:06CEMENTED AS THE SOLID EUROPEAN
07:07LEADER?
07:11>> WELL, I MEAN, IT'S CLEAR THAT
07:13OUT OF THOSE LEADERS, SHE IS THE
07:18ONE THAT CAME OUT ELECTORALLY
07:20STRENGTHENED.
07:21SO THAT I THINK IS A FACT.
07:23I ACTUALLY THINK, THOUGH, THIS
07:25NARRATIVE IS OVERBLOWN.
07:27FIRSTLY, I THINK THAT ITALY IS
07:31PRESIDING THIS G7 IN EXTREMELY
07:33COMPLICATED TIMES.
07:33IT'S ACTUALLY A G7, BUT WITH THE
07:36EXCEPTION OF THIS ONE AGREEMENT
07:39ON THE RUSSIAN FROZEN ASSETS,
07:41ACTUALLY HAS NO REAL
07:42DELIVERABLES, AND IT HAS NO REAL
07:45DELIVERABLES PRECISELY BECAUSE
07:46IN GENERAL, THE SITUATION WITHIN
07:48THE WEST HAS WEAKENED REALLY
07:50QUITE SUBSTANTIALLY.
07:51WHEN IT COMES TO MELONI HERSELF,
07:53I ALSO THINK THAT ALTHOUGH OVER
07:56THE LAST FEW MONTHS, AND IT'S
07:58NOT JUST WITH THE ELECTION, IT'S
07:59REALLY BEEN A NARRATIVE BUILDING
08:01UP OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS OF
08:03MELONI BEING THE QUEEN-MAKER IN
08:06EUROPE AND WHAT IS HER POSITION,
08:12VIA URSULA VON DER LEYEN, WE MAY
08:13BE REACHING THE END OF THAT
08:16STORY.
08:16WHAT I MEAN BY THAT, THERE COMES
08:18A POINT WHERE YOU KIND OF NEED
08:20TO MAKE A CHOICE.
08:21THERE IS ONLY SO LONG YOU CAN
08:23PLAY THIS DR. JEKYLL, MR. HYDE
08:25GAME WHICH HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR
08:27THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF FRANKLY
08:29SPEAKING OF BEING VERY HARD LINE
08:32DOMESTICALLY AND APPEARING TO BE
08:33FAIRLY MALLEABLE ON FOREIGN
08:36POLICY ISSUES THERE WILL COME A
08:37POINT WHEN IT COMES TO DECISIONS
08:39CONCERNING THE FUTURE COHORT
08:41EUROPEAN LEADERS THAT MELONI
08:43WILL HAVE TO CHOOSE TO ACTUALLY
08:44MAKE THE DEFINITIVE MOVE TOWARDS
08:47MODERATION AND ESSENTIALLY END
08:48UP BEING GIVEN THE ELECTORAL
08:51RESULTS AT EUROPEAN LEVEL, THE
08:53SMALL FISH.
08:53STILL THE SMALL FISH IN A BIG
08:55POND, OR ACTUALLY RETURN TO WHAT
08:59PROBABLY HER REAL BELIEFS AND
09:01QUOTE, UNQUOTE VALUES ARE, AND
09:03MOVE TO THE RIGHT, ESPECIALLY
09:05LOOKING AHEAD AT WHAT MAY BE
09:07HAPPENING IN FRANCE SOON.
09:08>> RIGHT.
09:08WELL, THERE SHE IS IN ITALY,
09:12DOMESTICALLY, HER POLITICS ARE
09:14MUCH DIFFERENT TO HER FOREIGN
09:15POLICY, AND THEY'RE MUCH MORE
09:17RIGHT-WING ON ALL THE SOCIAL
09:19ISSUES AND OTHER SUCH ISSUES.
09:21SO THIERRY ARNAUD, YOUR
09:23PRESIDENT, MACRON, IS AT THIS G7
09:26MEETING.
09:26I MEAN, ALONG WITH ALL OLAF
09:30SCHOLZ, OF COURSE.
09:31BUT MACRON HAS THROWN DOWN THE
09:33GAUNTLET AND HAS DECIDED TO GO
09:35ALL IN ON A BIG GAMBLE TO MAKE
09:37THE FRENCH DECIDE WHETHER THEY
09:38REALLY WANT THE FAR RIGHT.
09:41HOW IS IT BEING TAKEN?
09:42HOW ARE THE FRENCH LOOKING AT
09:44IT?
09:45WHAT ARE YOUR ALL SEEING WHEN
09:46YOU TALK TO PEOPLE AND INTERVIEW
09:47PEOPLE AND REPORT ON THIS?
09:52>> WELL, WITH A LOT OF
09:54PUZZLEMENT AND ASTONISHMENT AS
09:56TO WHY THE PRESIDENT HAS DECIDED
09:57TO DO.
10:00AND MOST OF THE PEOPLE YOU TALK
10:01TO DO NOT NECESSARILY UNDERSTAND
10:03WHY HE HAS COME TO THIS
10:04DECISION.
10:06SO HE HAS SOME EXPLAINING TO DO,
10:08WHICH HE STARTED DOING YESTERDAY
10:09BY HOLDING A PRESS CONFERENCE.
10:11ESSENTIALLY, I THINK HE DID IT
10:13FOR TWO REASONS.
10:14THE FIRST ONE IS WHO HE IS.
10:15HE IS A MAN WITH A LOT OF PRIDE.
10:18HE HATES LOSING.
10:19HE HATES BEING IN A CORNER.
10:21AND WHEN HE FINDS HIMSELF IN A
10:23SITUATION WHERE HE HOLDS VERY
10:26FEW STRONG CARDS INSTEAD OF
10:28DOING THE REASONABLE THING,
10:29WHICH WOULD BE FOLDING, HE IS
10:31GOING TO GOOD ALL IN, WHICH IS
10:32EXACTLY WHAT HE HAS DONE.
10:36AND IT'S ALSO HIS ASSESSMENT OF
10:38THE OCCURRING POLITICAL
10:40SITUATION.
10:40FIRST OF ALL, IT'S HARD TO
10:44OVERSTATE HOW BAD IT IS.
10:46AND THE CONCLUSION HE HAS DRAWN
10:47IS IF NOT NOW, HE WOULD HAVE HAD
10:49TO DO IT ANY WAY WITHIN THE NEXT
10:51FEW WEEKS OR MONTH.
10:52HE WAS EXPECTING FOR EXAMPLE, A
10:56MOTION OF NO CONFIDENCE IN
10:58PARLIAMENT BY FALL OVER THE NEXT
10:59BUDGET.
11:00IN THAT PARTICULAR CASE, THE
11:01GOVERNMENT WOULD HAVE HAD TO
11:02RESIGN AND HE WOULD HAVE HAD TO
11:04CALL THIS ELECTION.
11:05SO MIGHT AS WELL DO IT NOW OUT
11:07OF HIS OWN INITIATIVE AS POSED
11:09TO HAVING TO PLAY DEFENSE IN A
11:10FEW MONTHS' TIME.
11:11>> THAT'S INTERESTING, YEAH.
11:13>> I THINK THE GAMBLE HE IS
11:13MAKING IS THIS ONE.
11:16THE POLITICAL GAMBLE HE IS
11:18MAKING NOW IS THIS ONE.
11:19HE THINKS THAT IN ESSENCE, A
11:22PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION IS VERY
11:24DIFFERENT FROM THE EUROPEAN
11:26ELECTION.
11:26THE DEFEAT HE HAS BEEN SUBMITTED
11:28TO IS IN HIS OPINION FIRST AND
11:33FOREMOST THE EXPRESSION OF A LOT
11:34OF ANGER.
11:34BUT IT'S ONE THING TO BE VERY
11:37ANGRY AND TO EXPRESS IT BY
11:38SUPPORTING THE FAR RIGHT.
11:39IT'S QUITE DIFFERENT TO VOTE FOR
11:41PARLIAMENT WHICH IS GOING TO
11:42HAND OVER POWER TO MARINE Le PEN
11:46AND IN HIS OPINION, THE FRENCH
11:49ARE NOT READY TO GO THAT FAR
11:51YET.
11:52IT'S A BET THAT GOVERNMENT
11:54PARTIES HAVE BEEN MAKING FOR THE
11:56PAST 20 YEARS.
11:56AND IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S BEEN
11:58HAPPENING FOR 20 YEARS IS THAT
12:00EACH TIME SO FAR THEY HAVE WON
12:02THAT BET.
12:02BUT THE MARGIN BY WHICH THEY
12:05HAVE WON IS GETTING NARROWER AND
12:08NARROWER.
12:08AND MAYBE IT'S GOING TO
12:09DISAPPEAR IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.
12:11>> SOY WAS GOING ASK YOU.
12:12THAT IS ONE SORT OF -- I MEAN,
12:14THE LEADER OF THE TRADITIONAL
12:16RIGHT-WING PARTY, THE LE
12:22REPUBLICAN, HE HAS CALLED FOR AN
12:24ALLIANCE WITH THE PENISTAS.
12:26AND HE HAS HAD A LOT OF PUSHBACK
12:28FROM WITHIN HIS OWN PARTY.
12:29LET'S NOT FORGET IT'S THE PARTY
12:30OF CHARLES de GAULLE WHO
12:32ACTUALLY FOUGHT TO RID FRANCE OF
12:34THE FASCISTS AND THEIR
12:36INHERITORS.
12:36ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT THIS KIND
12:40OF RED LINE BETWEEN THE REGULAR
12:42PARTIES AND THE FAR RIGHT HAS
12:45DISAPPEARED?
12:45>> NO, BECAUSE YOU WILL ALWAYS
12:48FIND PEOPLE, THE LEADER OF THIS
12:50PARTICULAR PARTY IS ONE OF THEM
12:51THAT THINK THAT THE ONLY WAY TO
12:53WIN NOW, THE ONLY WAY FOR THEM
12:54TO GET BACK TO POWER IS THROUGH
12:57THAT ALLIANCE.
12:59SO IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT GOES
13:01AGAINST THE HISTORY OF THE
13:02PARTY.
13:03IT GOES AGAINST THE NATURE OF
13:05ITS POLICIES IN MANY WAYS.
13:07BUT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE PEOPLE
13:09LIKE HIM TO THINK THAT THEY WANT
13:10TO RUN THE COUNTRY.
13:11THEY WANT TO HAVE A SEAT IN THE
13:13GOVERNMENT.
13:13AND THE ONLY WAY TO DO THIS NOW
13:15IS TO ALIGN WITH MARINE Le PEN.
13:17YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE
13:19RESULTS OF THE EUROPEAN
13:21ELECTION, THEY ARE REALLY
13:23SPECTACULAR, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
13:27THE PARTY CAME AHEAD IN 93% OF
13:30FRENCH CITIES, OF ALL FRENCH
13:33CITIES, BIG AND SMALL.
13:33IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE SOCIAL
13:38CLASSES, IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE
13:41AID GROUPS, SHE IS ALMOST
13:43EVERYWHERE NOW, EVEN WHERE SHE
13:44USED TO BE TRADITIONALLY QUITE
13:48WEAK.
13:49SO THE WAVE OF THAT ELECTION IN
13:52HER FAVOR HAS BEEN VERY STRONG.
13:56AND IT'S A MOMENTUM THAT'S GOING
13:57TO BE VERY HARD TO STOP BEFORE
13:58THE NEXT ELECTION.
14:01>> GOSH.
14:02YOU SEEM TO HAVE A PESSIMISTIC
14:03VIEW OF HOW IT'S GOING TO TURN
14:04OUT.
14:05SO WE'LL SEE.
14:05BUT OBVIOUSLY, THESE LEADERS WHO
14:08ARE AT THE G7, NATHALIE, ALSO
14:11HAVE ANOTHER RAGING WAR ON THEIR
14:12HANDS, AND THAT IS BETWEEN
14:14ISRAEL AND HAMAS AND THE
14:15ESSENTIAL FLATTENING OF GAZA AND
14:18THE TERRIBLE HUMANITARIAN
14:19CRISIS, PLUS THE FACT THAT THERE
14:21ARE STILL ISRAELI HOSTAGES
14:25INSIDE GAZA.
14:26NOW I JUST WONDER WHAT YOU
14:28THINK, BECAUSE THE SECRETARY OF
14:29STATE IS THERE, I THINK, HAVING
14:33COME BACK FROM INCONCLUSIVE
14:37CEASEFIRE TALKS IN THE REGION.
14:38AND EVERY DAY THEY'RE FACED WITH
14:40PICTURES LIKE THE ONE I'M GOING
14:41PUT UP, AND IT'S REALLY AWFUL,
14:43IMAGES OF SUFFERING WHICH ARE
14:44HORRIFIC.
14:45THIS IS A PALESTINIAN CHILD IN
14:46GAZA.
14:47HIS NAME IS AMJAD KANU.
14:51HE IS 3 YEARS OLD.
14:52HE WEIGHS 5 KILOS AND HE IS
14:54SUFFERING FROM SEVERE
14:55MALNUTRITION.
14:56IT'S THE KIND OF THING I'VE SEEN
14:57WHEN I'VE COVERED FAMINE
15:02COUNTRIES.
15:02THE U.N. SAYS ALMOST 3,000
15:04CHILDREN HAVE BEEN CUT OFF FROM
15:05TREATMENT FOR MODERATE AND
15:07SEVERE ACUTE MALNUTRITION IN
15:09SOUTHERN GAZA.
15:10THEY'RE AT RISK OF DYING IN
15:11FRONT OF THEIR FAMILY.
15:12SO I'M SAYING ALL THIS, BECAUSE
15:13CLEARLY THAT IS WHAT THE LEADERS
15:15ALSO ARE FACED WITH.
15:16HOW ARE THEY GOING TO ALLEVIATE
15:20THIS HUMANITARIAN CONDITION
15:21WHILE ALSO TRYING TO BRING ABOUT
15:23A CEASEFIRE AND THE ACTUAL WAR?
15:25>> WELL, YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, I
15:27THINK THE TRAGEDY AT THIS MOMENT
15:31IS THAT WHEREAS DIPLOMACY OVER
15:33THE LAST EIGHT MONTHS, I MEAN
15:36OBVIOUSLY FAILED, BUT IT WAS IN
15:38THE SENSE TRYING AT LEAST TO GET
15:40TO A DEAL, FOR INSTANCE, ON THE
15:43HOSTAGE RELEASE AND A CEASEFIRE,
15:46NOW THAT PLAN IS IN THEORY
15:48THERE.
15:48AND OF COURSE IT HAS BEEN
15:50ENDORSED BY THE U.N. SECURITY
15:53COUNCIL.
15:53WHAT THE G7 WILL DO IS I PRESUME
15:55SIGN UP TO THAT VERY PLAN.
15:57BUT IN A SENSE, WE'RE IN THIS
15:59ODD SITUATION IN WHICH THERE IS
16:01A PLAN THAT PRESUMABLY IS
16:03ISRAEL'S PLAN.
16:03HAMAS HAS KIND OF CONDITIONALLY
16:06ACCEPTED IT SO LONG AS THERE IS
16:08CERTAIN CERTIFICATIONS MADE.
16:09BUT ISRAEL ITSELF DOESN'T
16:12ACTUALLY SEEM TO BE THAT
16:14COMMITTED TO PRESUMABLY WHAT ITS
16:15OWN PLAN IS.
16:16SO IN A SENSE, WE'RE BACK TO A
16:21PRE7th OF OCTOBER SITUATION IN
16:24WHICH DIPLOMACY ON THE QUOTE,
16:26UNQUOTE MIDDLE EAST PEACE
16:28PROCESS FOR YEARS, IN FACT FOR
16:30DECADES, IT BECAME IN A SENSE AN
16:32EXCUSE FOR THINGS ON THE GROUND
16:33TO DETERIORATE EVEN FURTHER.
16:36AND SO I FEAR THAT WE'RE GETTING
16:38INTO THE SITUATION NOW ONCE
16:39AGAIN.
16:39BUT OF COURSE IN A FAR MORE
16:43DRAMATIC AND IN HUMANITARIAN
16:44TERMS CATASTROPHIC SITUATION IN
16:46WHICH IN A SENSE LEADERS CAN ALL
16:48BE HAPPY THERE IS A PLAN AND WE
16:49ALL SIGN UP TO IT.
16:51BUT THEN NOTHING REALLY HAPPENS,
16:52RIGHT?
16:53AND NO ONE ACTUALLY MAKES ISRAEL
16:55COMPLY TO WHAT PRESUMABLY ITS
16:56OWN PLAN IS.
16:58>> NATHALIE, OF COURSE, THE U.S.
16:59HAS PUT THE BURDEN COMPLETELY ON
17:02HAMAS.
17:02AND THEY'VE DEMANDED THAT HAMAS
17:03COME UP AND SAY YES TO THIS.
17:05BUT YOU'RE RIGHT.
17:06ISRAEL PUBLICLY HAS NOT ENDORSED
17:08THIS PEACE PLAN.
17:09CAN I ASK A FINAL QUESTION TO
17:11YOU?
17:12YOU'RE WATCHING FROM THERE.
17:15THIS G7 IS SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT.
17:17MELONI HAS INVITED A WHOLE SLEW
17:19OF PEOPLE FROM POWERFUL
17:20PRESIDENTS FROM LATIN AMERICA,
17:22INDIA, PRIME MINISTER SOUTH
17:23AFRICA, ET CETERA.
17:26THEY'RE TRYING TO GET THE GLOBAL
17:28SOUTH ON BOARD, PARTICULARLY TO
17:30BUY INTO THEIR NARRATIVE OF
17:32WHAT'S HAPPENING IN UKRAINE.
17:33HOW DO YOU SEE THAT DEVELOPING
17:39ON THIERRY?
17:39>> I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE VERY
17:41HARD WORK.
17:41I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU,
17:43CHRISTIANE, BUT I CANNOT RECALL
17:45ONLY G7 SUMMIT IN RECENT MEMORY
17:47IN WHICH THE FRENCH PRESIDENT,
17:49THE GERMAN CHANCELLOR, THE
17:53BRITISH PRIME MINISTER FOUND
17:54THEMSELVES IN SUCH A WEAK
17:56POLITICAL SITUATION THAT IT WAS
17:58HARD TO IMAGINE THAT THEIR
18:02PRESSURE WOULD BE ABLE TO CARRY
18:03A LOT OF WEIGHT VIS-A-VIS THOSE
18:05REPRESENTATIVES OF THE GLOBAL
18:06SOUTH.
18:08SO I THINK IT'S ESSENTIAL THAT
18:10THEY TRY, BECAUSE ON THE OTHER
18:11SIDE OF THE EQUATION, YOU HAVE
18:15OBVIOUSLY CHINA TOGETHER WITH
18:17RUSSIA, PUSHING EXTREMELY HARD
18:20TO CONVINCE THEM TO ALIGN THEIR
18:24WORLD VIEWS TO THAT OF BEIJING
18:26AND MOSCOW.
18:26SO THERE HAS TO BE AN ARGUMENT.
18:31THERE HAS TO BE BEYOND THIS
18:33INVITATION A WORLD VIEW
18:35PRESENTED TO THESE LEADERS THAT
18:36MAKES SENSE TO THEM AS WELL.
18:37SO I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT
18:38THAT THEY ARE INVITED.
18:40IT'S VERY IMPORTANT THAT IT IS
18:43DISCUSSED, THIS VERY DIFFICULT
18:45WORLD SITUATION WITH THOSE
18:46WESTERN LEADERS SPECIFICALLY.
18:49BUT BECAUSE OF THIS SITUATION
18:50THEY'RE IN TODAY, I THINK,
18:52AGAIN, WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY
18:56WILL UNFORTUNATELY CARRY A LOT
18:58LESS WEIGHT THAN IT WOULD HAVE
18:59MAYBE A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.
19:01>> AND FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE,
19:04NATHALIE, AS SOMEBODY WHO USED
19:06TO ADVISE THE EU FOREIGN POLICY
19:09ESTABLISHMENT?
19:09>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IF YOU TAKE
19:10THE G7 OF TWO YEARS AGO, THE
19:12GERMAN PRESIDENCY G7, THAT WAS
19:15ACTUALLY THE FIRST TIME.
19:16SO THE WAR HAD ALREADY STARTED
19:17IN UKRAINE, AND WE REALIZED THAT
19:19WE HAD A PROBLEM WITH THE GLOBAL
19:21SOUTH.
19:21AND THERE WAS A KIND OF REAL
19:23EFFORT BEING MADE.
19:23IT WAS THE FIRST TIME THE SOUTH
19:25AFRICA AND SENEGAL AND INDONESIA
19:26AND INDIA WERE INVITED.
19:29AND AT THAT TIME, OF COURSE, WE
19:31REALIZED THAT THE GLOBAL SOUTH
19:33WAS NOT QUITE TOTALLY ALIGNED
19:34WITH US, BUT WE WERE STILL WITH
19:36THE QUOTE, UNQUOTE GLOBAL
19:39MAJORITY.
19:39JUST THINK ABOUT VOTES IN THE
19:41U.N. GENERAL ASSEMBLY ON
19:43UKRAINE.
19:43THE PROBLEM IS THAT MAKING THAT
19:47EFFORT NOW WITH WAR IN THE
19:50MIDDLE EAST REPUTATION AND
19:52CREDIBILITY IN THAT GLOBAL SOUTH
19:57HARDER CHALLENGE.
19:58>> OKAY.
19:58IT'S BEEN REALLY GREAT TALKING
20:00TO YOU, NATHALIE TOCCI, THIERRY
20:01ARNAUD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
20:03JOINING US TONIGHT.
20:05>>> NOW RUSSIA HAS FORMALLY SENT
20:07AN ESPIONAGE CASE AGAINST THE
20:10JAILED AMERICAN "WALL STREET
20:11JOURNAL" REPORTER EVAN
20:13GERSHKOVICH TO COURT.
20:14HE HAS BEEN DETAINED IN MOSCOW
20:16SINCE MARCH OF LAST YEAR.
20:17IN RESPONSE TODAY, THE "WALL
20:20STREET JOURNAL" SAID EVAN
20:21GERSHKOVICH IS FACING A FALSE
20:22AND BASELESS CHARGE.
20:23EVAN IS A JOURNALIST.
20:25THE RUSSIAN REGIME'S SMEARING OF
20:26EVAN IS REPUGNANT, DISGUSTING,
20:28AND BASED ON CALCULATE AND
20:30TRANSPARENT LIES.
20:31WE CONTINUE TO DEMAND HIS
20:34IMMEDIATE RELEASE, AS OF COURSE
20:35DOES THE JOURNALISTIC COMMUNITY.
20:38>>> NOW, ANOTHER NOTEWORTHY
20:39MEETING IS HAPPENING INSIDE
20:41ITALY TOMORROW.
20:42THIS ONE IS IN VATICAN CITY.
20:44THE POPE, WHO IS A FAN OF
20:46CRACKING JOKES, IS HOSTING SOME
20:48OF THE WORLD'S BEST COMEDIANS.
20:50THE CHURCH SAYS IT'S IN SUPPORT
20:51OF COMEDY CONTRIBUTING TO A NOR
20:53EMPATHETIC WORLD.
20:54WHOOPI GOLDBERG, STEPHEN
20:58COLBERT, CHRIS ROCK, CONAN
21:00O'BRIEN, THEY'LL ALL BE THERE,
21:02ALONG WITH MY GULF OF MEXICO
21:05GUEST, ONE OF THE QUEENS OF
21:08COMEDY JULIA LOUIS-DREYFUS.
21:09SHE HAS GIVEN US LOTS OF LAUGHS
21:12IN SEINFELD AND "VEEP."
21:15BUT "TUESDAY" FOCUSES ON A
21:16MOTHER PLAYED BY JULIA
21:17LOUIS-DREYFUS AND HER DAUGHTER
21:18TUESDAY, WHO IS DYING.
21:19AND WHEN THE MOTHER STRUGGLES TO
21:21ACCEPT THIS REALITY, DEATH
21:22ITSELF APPEARS IN THE FORM OF A
21:25GIANT PARROT AND BEGINS PECKING
21:27HER TOWARDS ACCEPTANCE.
21:28HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.
21:33>> YOU'RE UNIQUE.
21:34YOU MADE MY HEAD SILENT.
21:36>> WHO YOU TALKING TO?
21:38>> CAN YOU PLEASE COME OUT SO
21:39SHE CAN SEE?
21:44>> MADAM, YOU NEED TO SAY
21:47GOODBYE TO YOUR DAUGHTER.
21:52>> YOU HAVE TO BE STRONG NOW.
21:54>> I CAN'T.
21:54>> YOU CAN.
21:55AND YOU HAVE TO LET ME HELP YOU.
22:01>> EVERY LIFE ENDS.
22:04>> THE MAGICAL REALIST FABLE IS
22:06WRITTEN AND DIRECTED BY DAINA O.
22:14PUSIC WHO HELPS THEM REACH A
22:16UNIVERSAL CLUES.
22:17JULIA LOUIS-DREYFUS AND DAINA
22:18PUSIC, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
22:20>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US BOTH.
22:20>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
22:23>> IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARY FILM.
22:24IT'S VERY WEIRD, AT LEAST TO
22:26START OFF.
22:26BUT I JUST WANT TO FIRST START
22:28BY ASKING YOU, JULIA, I GUESS
22:31PEOPLE DO TYPE CAST YOU A LITTLE
22:32BIT WITH THE COMEDY THING, BUT
22:35YOU'VE DONE CLEARLY A NUMBER OF
22:36FILMS THAT AREN'T COMEDY.
22:38AND I WONDERED WHAT ABOUT THIS
22:40ONE ATTRACTED YOU.
22:42>> WELL, WHAT ATTRACTED ME TO
22:45THIS ROLE WAS THE SCRIPT, OF
22:50COURSE, BUT THE SCRIPT IN A VERY
22:54FANTASY, MAGICAL REALISM KIND OF
22:56WAY EXPLORES ISSUES OF GRIEF,
23:01DEATH, DYING, DENIAL,
23:05ACCEPTANCE, IN ADDITION TO
23:06REALLY EXPLORING THE BOND
23:09BETWEEN PARENT AND CHILD.
23:12ALL OF THOSE THEMES WERE OF
23:14COURSE THEY'RE VERY FUNDAMENTAL.
23:15AND THEY REALLY APPEAL TO ME TO
23:16EXPLORE FROM A STORYTELLING
23:18POINT OF VIEW.
23:20>> AND IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT
23:24ONE OF THE MAIN STARS ANY WAY IS
23:25A CGI GIANT MORPHING PARROT.
23:29I MEAN, THE TWO OF YOU, HOW DID
23:32YOU -- HOW DID YOU BOND OVER
23:34THIS?
23:34BECAUSE IT COULD HAVE GONE
23:37HORRIBLY WRONG, OR IT COULD HAVE
23:38BEEN, AS IT, REALLY INTERESTING?
23:40>> WELL, DAINA AND I MET OVER
23:43ZOOM A NUMBER OF TIMES TO TALK
23:46IN DEPTH ABOUT THE SCRIPT.
23:48AND DAINA IS OBVIOUSLY A VERY
23:52EMOTIONALLY INTELLIGENT PERSON
23:53AND A TRUE ARTIST IN EVERY SENSE
23:56OF THE WORD.
23:56AND REALLY, IT WAS QUITE CLEAR
23:58TO ME, AND SHE CAN SPEAK MORE TO
24:01THIS, THAT HER DESIRE IN TERMS
24:05OF THE ANIMATED PARROT AS IT
24:08WERE WAS TO MAKE THIS AS
24:12BEAUTIFUL AND OTHER WORLDLY AND
24:15ROOTED IN REALITY IN SUCH A WAY
24:17SO THAT IT WOULD PROPEL THE
24:19STORY FORWARD AND GIVE IT PROPER
24:22SORT OF PROFUNDITY.
24:24>> SO DAINA, TELL ME ABOUT IT.
24:26IT'S KIND OF AN UNUSUAL VEHICLE.
24:29THE PARROT IS DEATH, THE GRIM
24:33REAPER?
24:33>> WELL, I REALLY -- I DESIGNED
24:36DEATH THE WAY THAT I DID REALLY
24:38THROUGH A SORT OF PROCESS OF
24:42DEDUCTION.
24:42I KNEW WHAT THE CHARACTER WAS
24:44LIKE.
24:44I KNEW WHAT HE NEEDED TO DO IN
24:45THE FILM.
24:46I KNEW HE NEEDED TO TALK, WHICH
24:49PARROTS ARE FAMOUS FOR, AND I
24:50KNEW HE NEEDED TO SING AND DANCE
24:54AND TELL JOKES.
24:55I FELT ALSO THAT HIS PERSONALITY
24:57WAS SORT OF BIRD-LIKE.
24:58HE IS KIND OF CUDDLY AND
25:02FRIENDLY IN ONE MOMENT, AND AT
25:03THE TURN OF THE HEAD IS FRIGHTEN
25:04AND FOREIGN AND DANGEROUS.
25:09AND I ALSO FELT THAT I NEEDED TO
25:11NOT JUST MAKE HIM A PARROT, BUT
25:13ALSO MAKE HIM A MONSTER, TO PUSH
25:18THE REALITY OF WHAT HE WAS,
25:20BECAUSE I FELT THAT WOULD BE
25:21MORE BELIEVABLE IN THE VISUAL
25:22EFFECTS.
25:22>> THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING TO
25:24HEAR YOU DESCRIBE THAT.
25:25AND YOU TALK ABOUT USING THAT
25:27VEHICLE, THAT PARROT TO SORT OF
25:29PUSH OFF CERTAIN REALITIES AND
25:31NOT PLAY AROUND, BUT
25:33ESSENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, INHABIT
25:34THIS REALITY, WHICH TURNS OUT,
25:38JULIA, YOUR CHARACTER, THE
25:38MOTHER IS TRYING TO DELAY, DENY
25:41THE OBVIOUS, WHICH IS THAT YOUR
25:43DAUGHTER TUESDAY IS DYING.
25:45AND HAS AN INCURRABLE DISEASE.
25:47AND I WANT TO PLAY JUST THIS
25:49CLIP, WHICH IS FROM THE
25:52SO-CALLED BATHROOM SCENE WHERE
25:53YOU'RE ESSENTIALLY TELLING HER
25:55TO GET A GRIP.
25:56LET'S JUST PLAY IT.
25:57>> IT'S THE REALITY OF THE
25:58SITUATION.
26:00ISN'T IT?
26:02THIS IS WHAT PARENTS DO.
26:03THEY DO WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO.
26:04OKAY?
26:07AND IT'S GOOD TO BE HONEST ABOUT
26:08THAT.
26:10SO YOU NEED TO LOOK REALITY IN
26:12THE EYE INSTEAD OF JUST GETTING
26:13ANGRY AT ME ABOUT IT.
26:17>> ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS RIGHT
26:19NOW?
26:20>> GOSH, THE ACTRESS WHO PLAYS
26:22TUESDAY IS SO PHENOMENAL.
26:24AND THAT IS -- THAT'S EXACTLY
26:25THE BEST LINE, BECAUSE THERE ARE
26:28ARE TELLING HER TO GET A GRIP,
26:31AND SHE'S THE ONE DYING.
26:32JUST JULIA, PUT THAT INTO
26:35CONTEXT, BECAUSE YOU SPOUT A
26:36WHOLE LOAD OF LIES JUST TO GET
26:38OUT OF THE HOUSE SO YOU DON'T
26:39HAVE TO CONFRONT YOUR DYING
26:40DAUGHTER.
26:40>> YES, EXACTLY.
26:42I WOULD SAY THAT THE DYSFUNCTION
26:45THAT WE SORT OF BEGIN THE FILM
26:48WITH IS THAT MY DAUGHTER IN THE
26:51FILM IS REALLY THE PARENT TO ME.
26:58AND SHE'S -- AND I -- MY
27:02CHARACTER IS IN SUCH PAIN AND
27:05SUFFERING THAT SHE REFUSES TO
27:07FACE THE REALITY THAT HER
27:09DAUGHTER IS IN.
27:10AND SO SHE'S MAKING ONE DECISION
27:13AFTER ANOTHER THAT DOESN'T SEEM
27:16ON ITS FACE IS NOT -- THESE ARE
27:18NOT NURTURING DECISIONS.
27:23AND WHICH INCLUDES NOT WORKING.
27:25SHE'S OVERCOME WITH DEPRESSION.
27:27SHE'S SELLING OFF EVERYTHING
27:29THAT'S IN THEIR HOUSE TO MAKE
27:30ENDS MEET.
27:33NOTHING MAKES REAL RATIONAL
27:35SENSE.
27:36BUT I HAVE TO SAY, AS SOMEONE
27:38WHO PLAYED THE CHARACTER, I
27:39CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND WHERE SHE'S
27:41COMING FROM.
27:43AND BY THE END OF THE FILM, THE
27:47TABLES WILL HAVE TURNED IN THE
27:49SENSE THAT MY CHARACTER ZORA
27:53REALIZES THAT IT'S TIME FOR HER
27:55TO PARENT HER CHILD IN THE WAY
27:58THAT'S NECESSARY AND CRITICAL.
28:00>> WELL.
28:00>> WAS GOING TO DO IT LATER,
28:02SINCE YOU BRING IT UP, I'M GOING
28:04PLAY THIS LATER CLIP, WHICH IS
28:05ABOUT HOW YOU ARE, IN FACT,
28:08REALIZING WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING
28:09ON AND THE DYNAMIC.
28:10HERE IS THIS CLIP.
28:14>> I DON'T KNOW WHAT I AM
28:17WITHOUT YOU.
28:20WHO I AM WITHOUT YOU.
28:22I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE WORLD IS
28:23WITHOUT YOU IN IT.
28:27I'VE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA.
28:33AND BECAUSE OF THAT, I THINK --
28:35I DON'T KNOW, I WAS SCARED.
28:38I WAS FIGHTING FOR MY OWN LIFE,
28:44BUT I LOVE YOU SO MUCH MORE THAN
28:45ME.
28:50AND THIS IS YOUR LIFE.
28:55AND FROM NOW ON, WE'RE GOING TO
29:02DO WHAT'S BEST FOR YOU.
29:04>> IT'S REALLY, REALLY, REALLY
29:07POWERFUL.
29:07AND IT'S ALMOST LIKE YOU ARE
29:08FINALLY BEING THE ADULT, GIVING
29:11HER PERMISSION TO BE THE CHILD
29:12AND TO FINISH HER JOURNEY, WHICH
29:14YOU WILL DO TOGETHER.
29:14>> EXACTLY.
29:15THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
29:15YEAH.
29:18BUT WHAT'S SO FASCINATING TO ME
29:21ABOUT THIS FILM IS THAT
29:24EVERYTHING THAT IN THIS
29:31FANTASTICAL REALITY THAT DAINA
29:32HAS CREATED, IT'S UNBELIEVABLE
29:34SCENARIO THE LENGTHS TO WHICH
29:35THIS MOTHER, ZORA, WILL GO TO
29:39KEEP HER CHILD FROM HARM, FROM
29:42DEATH.
29:43AND IT'S A FANTASTICAL JOURNEY
29:48THAT MAKES SENSE ON AN EMOTIONAL
29:50AND PSYCHOLOGICAL LEVEL.
29:52>> DAINA, I WANT TO ASK YOU, DID
29:54YOU WRITE THIS AS WELL?
29:55AND WHAT ABOUT YOUR EXPERIENCE
29:56OR WHERE YOU GREW UP?
29:57I KNOW YOUR COUNTRY WAS CAUGHT
29:58UP IN THE BALKAN WARS.
30:00I DON'T KNOW.
30:01BUT WHAT ABOUT DEATH AND GRIEF
30:02AND PARENTHOOD WERE YOU TRYING
30:03TO EXPLORE AS WELL?
30:07>> I DID -- I DID WRITE IT AS
30:08WELL.
30:13I WAS -- IF I WERE TO DESCRIBE
30:15THIS FILM, I WOULD SAY IT'S AN
30:17ACCUMULATION OF MY THOUGHTS AND
30:19FEELINGS IN LIFE UP UNTIL THIS
30:20POINT, REALLY.
30:22AND MAKING THIS FILM IS THE
30:24PROCESS EVERYTHING THAT'S
30:25HAPPENED SO FAR IN A WAY.
30:31I WANTED TO EXPLORE THE FAMILIAL
30:35RELATIONSHIP WHICH I HAVE DONE
30:37IN MY SHORT FILMS BEFORE BETWEEN
30:39MOTHER AND DAUGHTER, A AND THE
30:42INTENSITY WITH WHICH THAT TYPE
30:43OF LOVE COMES.
30:44THAT INTENSITY SOMETIMES BRINGS
30:46NOT JUST LOVE, BUT IN A WAY ALSO
30:50HATE, TENSION, BECAUSE WHEN
30:51FEELINGS RUN HIGH TO THAT EXTENT
30:54IN SUCH A EXTREME WAY,
30:59TENDERNESS AND LOVE RUN HAND IN
31:02HAND ALMOST WITH VIOLENCE AND
31:03MISUNDERSTANDING.
31:08SO THIS IS THE TYPE OF REAL,
31:11MESSY LOVE AND RELATIONSHIP THAT
31:12I WAS REALLY INTERESTED IN
31:13EXPLORING.
31:15JUST BECAUSE OF MY OWN LIFE AND
31:17MY OWN EXPERIENCES, AND IN TERMS
31:22OF MY RELATIONSHIP WITH DEATH, I
31:24FEEL AND I HOPE THAT'S WHAT THE
31:28FILM SPEAKS TO AND THAT THE
31:30AUDIENCE FEELS THAT WHEN THEY
31:31WATCH THE FILM, THAT REALLY, YOU
31:37KNOW, IF WE ARE -- LIFE HAS ITS
31:41MEANING AND IT GAINS ITS WEIGHT
31:43AND WONDER AND MEANING BECAUSE
31:44OF THE FACT THAT IT HAS AN
31:46EXPIRATION DATE.
31:47AND IF WE WERE TO LIVE OUR LIFE
31:50UNDERSTANDING DEATH AND
31:51ACKNOWLEDGING IT, THEN WE'RE
31:52MORE LIKELY TO LIVE A FULLER AND
31:55HAPPIER LIFE.
31:55>> YOU KNOW, WHAT MAKES SENSE IS
31:57THAT VERY FEW PEOPLE TALK ABOUT
31:58DEATH.
31:59I MEAN, AS YOU, JULIA, I THINK
32:01I'VE HEARD YOU SAY WE'RE ALL
32:02GOING TO DIE.
32:03EVERYBODY IS GOING TO DIE.
32:04EVERYBODY WE KNOW IS GOING TO
32:05DIE.
32:05AND WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT AND
32:08UNDERSTAND IT.
32:10AND I THOUGHT THERE WAS A -- THE
32:12PART OF THE FILM THAT MAKES
32:14DEATH SORT OF LESS SCARY MAYBE
32:16IS, AGAIN, THE PARROT, WHERE
32:18THERE IS A SERIOUS COMEDY BIT
32:20THERE WHERE YOU DECIDE YOU'RE
32:21GOING TO EAT THE PARROT, JULIA,
32:25AS THE MOTHER AND TRY TO KILL
32:25DEATH.
32:29>> YEAH, EXACTLY.
32:30THAT'S WHAT I DO.
32:32THAT'S MY MATERNAL INSTINCT
32:35COMING OUT.
32:37I FIGHT DEATH TO DEATH.
32:41AND WHEN THAT DOESN'T WORK, I
32:43CONSUME HIM.
32:44>> YOU DO INDEED.
32:46AND THE VOMITING HIM UP AGAIN.
32:48I MEAN, THE WHOLE THING, THAT IS
32:49PRETTY INSPIRED.
32:51IT'S VERY FUNNY, IT'S VERY
32:54MEANINGFUL, IT'S VERY DRAMATIC,
32:54AND IT'S VERY CLEAR.
32:57I ALSO THOUGHT WHAT WAS REALLY
32:59INTERESTING IS THE PARROT IS
33:02LIKE THE VEHICLE, THE DYING
33:04DAUGHTER AND DEATH ARE IN A
33:06BOND, IN A COMPLICIT BOND TO TRY
33:09TO BRING YOU ALONG AS THE
33:10MOTHER, JULIA.
33:11>> EXACTLY.
33:14WHICH IS WHAT A SUCH REMARKABLE
33:18SORT OF TURN OF EVENTS IN THE
33:19STORYTELLING OF THIS FILM.
33:25THEY'RE TRYING TO -- EVERYBODY
33:26IS TRYING TO NEGOTIATE WITH ONE
33:27ANOTHER.
33:30TUESDAY IS TRYING TO NEGOTIATE
33:32WITH DEATH, TO NEGOTIATE WITH
33:34HER MOTHER.
33:34I MEAN, IT IS A MASTER CLASS IN
33:40I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE WORD I
33:42WOULD USE FOR.
33:43BUT IT IS -- IT'S SO OUTRAGEOUS.
33:46IT'S MARVELOUS.
33:50AND TO ME MAKES COMPLETE AND
33:50UTTER SENSE.
33:54AND I LOVED EVERYTHING ABOUT
33:56MAKING THIS FILM WITH DAINA, I
33:58HAVE TO SAY.
33:58IT'S BEEN A COMPLETE JOY.
34:00>> LET ME JUST ASK YOU ALSO
34:02ABOUT WHAT'S GOING GANGBUSTERS
34:04FOR YOU, AND THAT IS YOUR
34:05PODCAST, WISER THAN ME.
34:07WHAT ARE YOU GETTING OUT OF
34:08THAT?
34:08>> ONE THING THAT'S VASTLY
34:10SURPRISED ME IS THE REACTION.
34:14I THINK I FELT A NEED TO HAVE
34:16THESE CONVERSATIONS PERSONALLY,
34:17AND THEN IT TURNS OUT MANY
34:19MILLIONS OF PEOPLE FEEL THE NEED
34:20AS WELL TO HEAR THESE
34:24CONVERSATIONS.
34:25AND SO I'M HONORED TO BE TALKING
34:30TO THESE WOMEN, SITTING AT THE
34:32FEET OF THESE WOMEN TO GLEAN
34:35THEIR WISDOM FROM WHAT I SEE AS
34:36THE SORT OF THE FRONT LINES OF
34:39LIFE.
34:39WOMEN OFTEN AS THEY AGE BECOME
34:41LESS VISIBLE.
34:43AND THAT'S A TREMENDOUS -- WELL,
34:46THAT'S A TREMENDOUS MISSED
34:47OPPORTUNITY FOR THE REST OF THE
34:50UNIVERSE, BECAUSE WOMEN IN
34:52PARTICULAR HAVE AN ENORMOUS
34:53AMOUNT OF WISDOM, I THINK.
34:56PERHAPS EVEN MORE THAN THE OTHER
34:59GENDER.
35:00>> I'M SURE ALL THREE WOMEN HERE
35:02WOULD AGREE.
35:02>> YES, EXACTLY.
35:05BUT, ANY WAY, I'M VERY HAPPY
35:07WITH HOW IT'S BEEN RECEIVED FOR
35:08SURE.
35:08>> AND WHAT ABOUT COMEDY?
35:11OBVIOUSLY YOU'RE BURNT INTO
35:13EVERYBODY'S MINDS WITH
35:17"SEINFELD," WITH "VEEP."
35:19WHAT IS IT YOU LIKE ABOUT
35:20COMEDY?
35:21BECAUSE YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY TAKING
35:21TO THIS OTHER STUFF LIKE A DUCK
35:22TO WATER.
35:23YOU'RE NOT TYPE CAST, BUT YOU
35:25ARE SO GOOD AT THE OTHER AS
35:26WELL.
35:27WHAT DO YOU LIKE ABOUT IT?
35:28>> WELL, WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE?
35:32IT'S SO -- IT'S SUCH AN ELEVATED
35:34EXPERIENCE TO HEAR PEOPLE LAUGH.
35:40AND -- IT'S A BLESSING, REALLY.
35:44AND SO AND IT'S SOMETHING I'VE
35:46SORT OF IN MY CAREER HAVE SORT
35:48OF FALLEN INTO.
35:51MOST OF THE JOBS I'VE GOTTEN IN
35:52MY CAREER HAVE BEEN COMEDIC.
35:57SO I LOVE DOING COMEDY, BUT
35:59HAVING SAID THAT, I LOVE DOING
36:01DRAMA.
36:02AND THEY'RE RELATED IN SO MANY
36:06WAYS.
36:06AND I'M -- WHAT I REALLY LIKE IS
36:08TRYING NEW THINGS AND TRYING AND
36:11SINKING MY TEETH INTO MATERIAL
36:14THAT'S UNFAMILIAR AND
36:17CHALLENGING AND ARTISTICALLY
36:18SATISFYING.
36:21SO THAT'S WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR.
36:23I DON'T WANT TO DO ANYTHING
36:26DERIVATIVE, AND CERTAINLY THIS
36:27FILM IS NOT THAT.
36:28>> NO, IT'S NOT.
36:30TALKING ABOUT NEW THINGS, I HEAR
36:31THAT YOU HAVE BEEN SELECTED OR
36:35INVITED AS A NUMBER OF PROMINENT
36:37COMEDIANS GOING TO VISIT THE
36:39POPE.
36:39WHAT DO YOU THINK HE WANTS TO
36:42KNOW?
36:42>> YOU KNOW WHAT?
36:43HONESTLY, I HAVE NO IDEA.
36:46I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS IS
36:48GOING TO BE LIKE, AND IF YOU
36:49KNOW, TELL ME.
36:55WANTS TO MEET, I'M SURE.
36:57LET'S SEE WHAT THIS IS GOING TO
36:58BE ABOUT.
37:00I'M INTERESTED.
37:03>> WELL, THERE IS A DRAMA IN
37:04THERE SOMEWHERE.
37:07AND DAINA PUSIC, FINALLY, WHAT'S
37:10NEXT ON YOUR AGENDA?
37:12THIS WAS A PARTICULAR DRAMA.
37:12WHAT'S NEXT?
37:15>> MAKE ANOTHER ONE?
37:16HOPEFULLY, IF THEY LET ME.
37:18>> OKAY.
37:20>> THAT'S -- YEAH.
37:21>> ALL RIGHT.
37:22WELL, THAT'S A GOOD WAY TO END.
37:24DAINA O. PUSIC, JULIA
37:25LOUIS-DREYFUS, THANK YOU SO MUCH
37:26INDEED.
37:27>> THANK YOU.
37:27>> THANK YOU.
37:29>> AND WE HAD THAT CONVERSATION
37:32EARLIER THIS WEEK.
37:32JUST AHEAD OF WHEN THE FILM
37:34COMES OUT, WHICH IS TOMORROW.
37:38>>> WE TALK TO SOMEONE WHO SPENT
37:40HIS CAREER REPORTING ON DEATH
37:41AROUND THE WORLD.
37:43AND YET NICHOLAS KRISTOF SAYS HE
37:45IS CHASING HOPE.
37:46HE SPEAKS TO WALTER ISAACSON
37:49ABOUT THAT AND THE PEOPLE WHO HE
37:50HAS MET ALONG THE WAY WHO HELP
37:52HIM TO REMAIN OPTIMISTIC.
37:54>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.
37:55AND NICK KRISTOF, WELCOME BACK
37:57TO THE SHOW.
37:57>> GREAT TO BE BACK TO THE SHOW.
37:59>> FOR 40 YEARS, YOU'VE BEEN
38:01COVERING EVERYTHING FROM SEX
38:02TRAFFICKING TO CHILD HEALTH
38:03ISSUES AND GENOCIDE.
38:05AND YET YOU'VE GOT THIS NEW
38:08MEMOIR OUT AND YOU SAY CHASING
38:09HOPE.
38:10WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY CHASING
38:12HOPE?
38:13>> SO PEOPLE MEET ME MAINE FOR
38:15THE FIRST TIME BECAUSE I'VE BEEN
38:18COVERING ALL THESE GRIM TOPICS.
38:20THEY ALWAYS EXPECT I'M GOING TO
38:23BE THIS DOUR PESSIMIST.
38:25THE TRUTH IS THE BACKDROP WE
38:26DON'T ALWAYS ACKNOWLEDGE IN
38:28JOURNALISM IS A HUGE IMPROVEMENT
38:30AROUND THE WORLD.
38:31FEWER KIDS DYING, FEWER PEOPLE
38:33MALNOURISHED, FEWER PEOPLE
38:34DISABLED BY DISEASE, MORE PEOPLE
38:35LITERATE, WOMEN MORE EMPOWERED.
38:39AND ALSO, I THINK AT THE SAME
38:43TIME, THE WORST OF HUMANITY,
38:45WALTER, YOU INVARIABLY FIND THE
38:48VERY BEST.
38:49YOU FIND PEOPLE OF AMAZING
38:50COURAGE, STRENGTH, RESILIENCE
38:52WHO HAVE LET ME UTTERLY INSPIRED
38:54ABOUT OUR CAPACITY TO STILL TAKE
38:55ON ALL THESE VERY REAL
38:57CHALLENGES AROUND US.
38:58>> YOUR JOURNALISM HAS HAD A
38:59CRUSADING ASPECT WITHOUT
39:01NECESSARILY BEING PARTISAN OR
39:01POLITICAL OR EVEN IDEOLOGICAL.
39:04AND IN SOME WAYS, I SEE YOUR
39:07JOURNALISM IN THE TRADITION OF
39:08100 YEARS AGO WITH I IDA TARBELL
39:18AND UPTON SIN CLARKS IT'S NOT SO
39:19MUCH ABOUT TRYING TO CHANGE THE
39:22VIEWS ON THE AGENDA, BUT RATHER
39:24TRYING TO COVER VIEWS OFF THE
39:25AGENDA AND PROJECT THEM ON TO
39:26THE AGENDA IN WAYS THAT WILL
39:28LEAD THEM TO BE ERESOLVED.
39:31I THINK THAT MIMICS CHANGES IN
39:33THE WAY HISTORY HAS UNFOLDED.
39:35WE USED TO THINK OF HISTORY AS
39:37WHAT KINGS DID.
39:37AND THERE WAS THIS REVOLUTION IN
39:39HISTORY WRITING.
39:40SO IT WAS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO
39:41SOCIETIES, TO WOMEN, TO KIDS, ET
39:44CETERA.
39:44AND I THINK LIKEWISE, JOURNALISM
39:46NEEDS TO BE A LITTLE LESS ABOUT
39:48WHAT PRESIDENTS DID YESTERDAY
39:49AND MORE ABOUT THE BROAD CHANGES
39:52HAPPENING IN SOCIETY AND
39:52INCLUDING THOSE LEFT BEHIND.
39:54>> YOU MADE YOUR NAME IN SOME
39:56WAYS BY COVERING TIANANMEN
39:58SQUARE, BY RUSHING INTO IT WHEN
40:00YOU WERE THERE FOR "THE NEW YORK
40:03TIMES."
40:03AND YET I READ IN YOUR BOOK,
40:05THERE WAS AN INTERESTING THING
40:06THAT YOU SAY ONE OF THE THINGS I
40:08LEARNED IS THAT VICTIMS
40:10SOMETIMES LIE.
40:11WALK ME THROUGH HOW YOU GOT THAT
40:13REALIZATION.
40:15>> SO I WAS ON TIANANMEN SQUARE
40:18THAT NIGHT WHEN TROOPS OPENED
40:19FIRE, AND I KNEW THAT THEY HAD
40:22SLAUGHTERED AN UNARMED
40:25PROTESTERS, BUT I ALSO KNEW, FOR
40:27EXAMPLE, THEY HAD NOT SENT TANKS
40:29THROUGH THE TIBETS WITH A LOT OF
40:32STUDENTS INSIDE THEM, THAT THE
40:35TIANANMEN SQUARE HAD NOT BEEN
40:36KNEE-DEEP IN BLOOD, ET CETERA.
40:39AND I HAD BEEN VERY CAREFUL TO
40:42GET FIGURES FROM EACH OF THE
40:44HOSPITALS ABOUT HOW MANY PEOPLE
40:45HAD DIED.
40:46MY ESTIMATE WAS 400 TO 800
40:47PEOPLE DYING IN BEIJING.
40:49AND THEN IN THE DAYS AFTER,
40:52THERE WERE ALL THIS TALK ABOUT
40:53TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
40:55DYING AT TIANANMEN.
40:58AND THE SQUARE BEING KNEE-DEEP
40:59IN BLOOD.
41:01YOU KNOW, I REALIZED THAT WE IN
41:05JOURNALISM, IT'S INTUITIVE OF US
41:07TO BE SKEPTICAL AND TOE
41:09CHALLENGE ACCOUNTS BY
41:10PERPETRATORS OF MASSACRES, BY
41:12DICTATORS.
41:12BUT IT'S ALSO I THINK NATURAL
41:13FOR US TO BE SYMPATHETIC AND
41:17LESS SKEPTICAL OF VICTIMS.
41:20BUT VICTIMS EXAGGERATE.
41:21THEY LIE.
41:21AND WHEN YOU HAVE SUFFERED
41:25TERRIBLY, YOU'RE INCENTIVIZED TO
41:27SAY THAT SOMETHING YOU HEARD
41:29ABOUT, THAT YOU ACTUALLY
41:30WITNESSED IT.
41:31AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I
41:33LEARNED FROM THAT TERRIBLE NIGHT
41:33IS THAT IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US AS
41:36JOURNALISTS IF WE CARE DEEPLY
41:37ABOUT GETTING THE TRUTH TO
41:42ACTUALLY BE AS SKEPTICAL OF
41:43VICTIMS AS WE ARE OF
41:44PERPETRATORS.
41:47>> WHEN YOU COVERED DARFUR, YOU
41:49GOT IN THERE I THINK USING A
41:53UNITED AIRLINES MILEAGE CARD.
41:54YOU SNUCK IN, BROKE THE RULES.
41:56AND IT ACTUALLY STARTED A GLOBAL
41:59MOVEMENT TO FOCUS ON THE
42:01ATROCITIES THAT WERE HAPPENING
42:02IN DARFUR.
42:05HOW DID YOU LEARN ABOUT THOSE?
42:06AND HOW DID YOU DECIDE TO
42:07EMBRACE THAT AS A SORT OF
42:10JOURNALISTIC CAUSE?
42:11>> SO A LOT OF WHAT HAVE I DONE
42:13IS REALLY BEEN ABOUT
42:15SERENDIPITY.
42:15I MADE ONE TRIP IN WHICH I SAW
42:19HORRIBLE SEX TRAFFICKING AND
42:20THEN THAT LED ME TO MORE
42:21COVERAGE OF IT.
42:27AND LIKEWISE, I HEARD RUMORS
42:30ABOUT ATROCITIES IN DARFUR.
42:33I DIDN'T KNOW IF THEY WERE TRUE.
42:36I MADE ONE TRIP TO THE
42:39CHAD-SUDAN BORDER, WHERE I WAS
42:41ABLE TO INTERVIEW REFUGEES
42:42YOU'VE DESCRIBED WHAT HAD
42:44HAPPENED.
42:44YOU DESCRIBED VILLAGES BEING
42:47DESTROYED, BODIES THROWN INTO
42:48WELLS.
42:49SO THOSE VILLAGES HAD BECOME
42:52UNINHABITABLE.
42:52I MET A 4-YEAR-OLD GIRL WHO
42:54CARRIED HER BABY SISTER EIGHT
42:56DAYS TO GET THERE AFTER HER
42:56PARENTS HAD BEEN KILLED.
42:58AND I WAS HORRIFIED.
43:00AND YOU CAN'T JUST GO BACK TO
43:02YOUR FAMILY AND HUG YOUR KIDS
43:04AND THEN JUST FORGET ABOUT WHAT
43:06HAPPENED.
43:07IT HAUNTS YOU.
43:08AND SO THE WAY WE FIGHT BACK IS
43:10WITH OUR LAPTOPS AND OUR
43:12CAMERAS.
43:13THAT MEANS GOING BACK AND
43:14GETTING MORE STORIES AND TRYING
43:18TO FIGURE OUT WHAT CAN MAKE --
43:22CAN SPILL PEOPLE'S COFFEE IN THE
43:23MORNING AND GET THEM TO CALL
43:24THEIR MEMBER OF CONGRESS OR CALL
43:26THE WHITE HOUSE.
43:27SO THAT MEANT TRYING TO SNEAK
43:30INTO DARFUR, AND IT DID BECOME
43:33KIND OF AN OBSESSION WITH ME.
43:35THE MORE VICTIMS I MET, THE MORE
43:36I ACTUALLY SAW FIRSTHAND THOSE
43:38VILLAGES.
43:42IT DID BECOME SOMETHING OF AN
43:44OBSESSION.
43:44>> AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DO
43:46IS YOU PERSONALIZE.
43:47IN OTHER WORDS, AN ATROCITY IN
43:50DARFUR IS A CONCEPT, BUT IF YOU
43:52MEET ONE OR TWO PEOPLE AND THEY
43:55BECOME VERY PERSONAL, YOU CAN
43:57RELATE TO IT.
43:58EXPLAIN TO ME THE ROLE OF
44:00PERSONALIZING A TRAGEDY LIKE
44:01THAT.
44:02>> YEAH, THAT CAME OUT OF A
44:04FRUSTRATION THAT MY EARLIER
44:06REPORTING ABOUT DARFUR JUST DID
44:08NOT SEEM TERRIBLY EFFECTIVE.
44:09AND IN PARTICULAR AT THIS TIME
44:10IN NEW YORK CITY, THERE WERE
44:12THESE TWO HAWKS, THESE TWO
44:14RED-TAILED HAWKS WHO HAD BEEN
44:16NESTING IN A BUILDING, AND THEN
44:17THE BUILDING PUSHED THEM OUT OF
44:20THE -- TOOK APART THEIR NEST
44:23BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T LIKE THE
44:24BIRD DROPPINGS.
44:25AND ALL NEW YORK CITY WAS UP IN
44:27ARMS ABOUT THESE TWO HOMELESS
44:28HAWKS.
44:29I THOUGHT HOW IS IT I CAN'T
44:31GENERATE THE SAME OUTAGE ABOUT
44:32HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
44:33BEING SLAUGHTERED.
44:34THAT PLEAD ME TO WORK IN SOCIAL
44:36PSYCHOLOGY AND NEUROSCIENCE
44:37ABOUT WHAT MAKES PEOPLE CARE.
44:40IT TURNS OUT IT'S ABOUT TWO
44:42THINGS.
44:42IT'S ABOUT INDIVIDUAL STORIES.
44:43IT'S AN EMOTIONAL CONNECTION,
44:46NOT A RATIONAL ONE.
44:47AND SECONDLY, IT'S ABOUT SOME
44:51POSSIBILITY THAT IF PEOPLE DO
44:52CARE ABOUT IT, THERE CAN BE A
44:54BETTER OUTCOME.
44:55AND I THINK THESE ARE THINGS WE
44:57JOURNALISTS DO WRONG.
44:58WE TALK ABOUT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE
45:01SUFFERING FROM SOME CRISIS.
45:02AND WE OFTEN FOCUS SO MUCH ON
45:04ALL THAT IS GOING WRONG THAT WE
45:07DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE THE
45:09POSSIBILITY OF BETTER OUTCOMES.
45:14AND SO I SENSE THEN REALLY TRIED
45:17TO TELL INDIVIDUAL STORIES AND
45:21LIKEWISE TO LOOK AT THIS
45:24BACKDROP OF PROGRESS, JUST SO
45:26THAT, LOOK, WE CAN DO BETTER.
45:28AND IF PEOPLE DO GET ENGAGED, WE
45:30CAN SAVE LIVES.
45:31>> ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVE
45:32ABOUT YOUR JOURNALISM IS THAT IN
45:33AN ERA OF HOT TAKES, WHEN
45:36EVERYBODY'S GOT TO BE A HERO
45:37ORRVILLE LANE AND KNOW EXACTLY
45:39WHAT SIDE THEY'RE ON, YOU'RE
45:40OFTEN CONFLICTED, AND YOU LAY
45:41OUT THE REASONS YOU'RE
45:42CONFLICTED.
45:44AND RECENTLY, IT'S BEEN ON THE
45:48GAZA-ISRAEL WAR FRONT.
45:49AND YOU SAY THAT SOMETIMES A
45:52JUST WAR CAN TURN UNJUST.
45:54TELL ME, DO YOU THINK THAT'S
45:56WHAT'S HAPPENED NOW, THAT THE
45:57ISRAELI WAR IN GAZA HAS BECOME
46:00UNJUST?
46:01>> THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I THINK.
46:05I THINK ON OCTOBER 7th ISRAEL
46:07HAD EVERY RIGHT TO USE MILITARY
46:09MEANS TO GO AFTER HAMAS.
46:11THEY'RE RIGHT TO GO AFTER HAMAS,
46:13BUT REALLY AN OBLIGATION TO DO
46:18SO TO REESTABLISH DETERRENTS
46:19WHICH I THINK HAD FAILED.
46:20BUT THAT DID NOT MEAN USING
46:232,000 POUND BOMBS TO DESTROY
46:25ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOODS IN GAZA
46:26THAT DID NOT MEAN CUTTING OFF
46:29THE FLOW OF FOOD IN PARTICULAR
46:31AND THINGS LIKE BIRTHING KITS,
46:33BECAUSE BIRTHING KITS HAVE THESE
46:35LITTLE TINY SCISSORS IN THEM TO
46:36CUT AN UMBILICAL CORD.
46:39AND I THINK THEN THE U.S. BECAME
46:44COMPLICIT IN THAT BRUTALITY IN
46:49GAZA BECAUSE PRESIDENT BIDEN WAS
46:50TOO SLOW TO USE THE LEVERAGE
46:52THAT WE HAD, WHICH WAS
46:53ESSENTIALLY PROTECTING ISRAEL
46:54AND THE U.N. AND SHIPPING
46:55OFFENSIVE WEAPONS TO ISRAEL.
46:59SO THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THE
47:01HORROR OF OCTOBER 7th.
47:02BUT THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THE
47:06HORROR THAT FOLLOWED.
47:07WHILE I DON'T BELIEVE THERE IS A
47:09MORAL EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN ISRAEL
47:11AND HAMAS, I DO BELIEVE THERE IS
47:12A MORAL EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN THE
47:13CHILDREN OF ISRAEL AND THE
47:14CHILDREN OF GAZA.
47:15AND I THINK WE'VE NEGLECTED
47:16THAT.
47:19>> YOU'VE COVERED THE HORRORS OF
47:23DARFUR, AND YOU BECAME A FAN OF
47:25SENATOR JOE BIDEN THEN, BECAUSE
47:26HE WAS PERSON OF COMPASSION, BUT
47:30YOU SAY "I WONDER WHERE HAS THAT
47:34JOE BIDEN GONE?
47:35GAZA HAS BECOME THE ALBATROSS
47:36AROUND BIDEN'S NECK.
47:38IT WILL BE PART OF HIS LEGACY,
47:40AN ELEMENT OF HIS OBITUARY, A
47:41BLOT ON HIS CAMPAIGN."
47:44WHAT ARE YOU DRIVING AT, THAT
47:46JOE BIDEN HAS LOST THE
47:47COMPASSION THAT HE HAD BEFORE
47:47WHEN IT COMES TO GAZA?
47:50>> I DON'T THINK THAT HE HAS
47:51LOST HIS COMPASSION.
47:52I THINK THAT'S ACTUALLY DEEP
47:54WITHIN HIM, AND HE ALSO SHOWED
47:56IT DURING THE BOSNIA GENOCIDE.
47:59BUT I THINK HE HAS JUST
48:02PRETERNATURALLY, I THINK IT'S IN
48:05HIS DNA TO SIDE WITH ISRAEL WHEN
48:09EVER THERE IS SOME KIND OF A
48:10CONFLICT.
48:11I THINK HE IS OF AN AGE, OF A
48:13GENERATION WHERE HE THINKS OF
48:14ISRAEL AS ENORMOUSLY FRAGILE AND
48:18VULNERABLE.
48:19AND I JUST RUSHES TO EMBRACE ITS
48:22LEADER.
48:23AND I THINK THAT HAS MADE HIM
48:26TOO SLOW IN USING THE LEVERAGE
48:28THAT WE HAVE, SUCH AS THE FLOW
48:31OF WEAPONS TO PRESSURE ISRAEL TO
48:33DO WHAT HE HAS ASKED IT TO DO
48:35FROM THE BEGINNING.
48:36SO BIDEN WAS I THINK VERY GOOD
48:38RIGHT FROM HIS FIRST TRIP TO
48:39ISRAEL TO CALL ON ISRAEL TO SHOW
48:42RESTRAINT, TO REMIND ISRAEL THAT
48:43THE U.S. MADE MISTAKES
48:44AFTER 9/11 IN WAYS THAT DID NOT
48:45ADVANCE THEIR OWN SECURITY.
48:48BUT WHEN NETANYAHU REBUFFED HIM
48:50AND IGNORED HIM, THEN AT THAT
48:52POINT I THINK BIDEN WAS WAY TOO
48:55SLOW TO CREATE CONSEQUENCES.
48:58AND TO USE THAT LEVERAGE, AND
49:01DIPLOMACY, AS YOU KNOW, IS NOT
49:03JUST ABOUT MAKING REQUESTS, IT'S
49:05ALSO ABOUT TWISTING ARMS.
49:08BIDEN HAS BEEN UNWILLING TO DO
49:10THAT, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT
49:11HAS AGGRAVATED THE CRISIS IN
49:13GAZA AND LED TO OUR OWN
49:13COMPLICITY IN THOSE RESULTS.
49:17>> YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT YOUR
49:20FATHER'S EXAMPLE AS A REFUGEE,
49:22SEEKING ASYLUM HERE, AND YET
49:24RECENTLY, I'VE NOTICED THAT
49:26YOU'VE TURNED AGAINST HAVING
49:28BORDERS THAT WOULD ALLOW A LOT
49:30OF ASYLUM.
49:31YOU'VE SUPPORTED JOE BIDEN'S NEW
49:33RULE CRACKING DOWN ON THE
49:35BORDERS.
49:36HOW TOUGH WAS IT FOR YOU TO
49:38WRESTLE WITH THAT?
49:40>> IT'S A LITTLE HARD FOR THE
49:43SON OF A REFUGEE WHO BENEFITTED
49:45FROM AMERICA'S GENEROSITY TOWARD
49:50REFUGEES TO FEEL A LITTLE BIT
49:53LIKE YOU'RE PULLING UP THE
49:55LADDER AFTER YOU'RE HERE.
49:56BUT I THINK THAT THE -- WHAT WAS
49:58GOING ON WITH THE ASYLUM SYSTEM
50:00IN THE U.S. WAS UNSUSTAINABLE.
50:03BOTH IN THE U.S. AND IN EUROPE,
50:06IT LAID THE GROUNDWORK FOR
50:08EXTREME RIGHT-WING POPULISTS WHO
50:12ARE BAD FOR REFUGEES, FOR ASYLUM
50:13SEEKERS, FOR ABSOLUTELY
50:15EVERYBODY.
50:17AND I THINK ANOTHER THING THAT
50:19SHAPED MY THINKING WAS COMING
50:23FROM RURAL OREGON, YAM HILL,
50:25OREGON, A WORKING CLASS AREA, IT
50:27WAS EVIDENT THAT THERE ARE COSTS
50:30TO RISING IMMIGRATION, AND THOSE
50:33WHO STRUGGLE ARE THOSE WHO ARE
50:35HIGH SCHOOL DROP-OUTS OR
50:37CERTAINLY WHO HAVEN'T GONE TO
50:39COLLEGE WHO ARE COMPETING WITH
50:41IMMIGRANT LABORERS.
50:44AND THESE ARE FOLKS WHO HAVE
50:46ALREADY SUFFERED ENORMOUSLY.
50:49I THINK WE BE CAREFUL ABOUT
50:53INFLICTING MORE DAMAGE ON THEM.
50:53SO A KIND OF COMBINATION OF
50:55REASONS I THOUGHT IT WAS
50:57IMPORTANT TO BACK BIDEN IN
50:59TRYING TO BRING BACK SOME ORDER
51:00TO THE ASYLUM PROCESS.
51:02>> I'M GOING READ YOU A SENTENCE
51:03IN THE BOOK THAT STRUCK ME.
51:05"IN A WAY THAT I HAD NEVER
51:07IMAGINED AT THE BEGINNING OF MY
51:08CAREER, I NOW FELT THAT
51:10REPORTING ON INTERNATIONAL
51:11CRISES HELPED ME BETTER
51:13UNDERSTAND MY OWN COUNTRY."
51:17"AND THE RISKS IT FACED."
51:21TELL ME WHAT IT HELP YOU'D
51:22UNDERSTAND AND WHAT RISKS WE ARE
51:25FACING.
51:25>> I THINK THAT COMES PARTLY OUT
51:26OF THE STRUGGLES OF MY OWN
51:28COMMUNITY IN RURAL OREGON.
51:33WHICH LIKE A LOT OF WORKING
51:34CLASS COMMUNITIES AROUND THE
51:37COUNTRY LOST JOBS, THEN METH
51:39ARRIVED.
51:39AT THIS POINT, MORE THAN A THIRD
51:41OF THE KIDS IN MY OLD SCHOOL BUS
51:43ARE GONE FROM DRUGS, ALCOHOL AND
51:44SUICIDE.
51:46THAT LED TO A DEEP HOSTILITY TO
51:49WHAT PEOPLE WOULD CALL ELITES,
51:51TO CONSPIRACY THEORIES, A LOT OF
51:54MY FRIENDS DIDN'T WANT TO GET
51:59VACCINATED.
51:59THEY -- THEY BECAME PRONE TO
52:04DEMAGOGUES, TO PEOPLE POINTING
52:05TOWARDS SCAPEGOATS.
52:06A COUPLE OF FRIENDS TALKED ABOUT
52:08TAKING UP ARMS TO GET THEIR
52:09COUNTRY BACK.
52:14AND I'VE SEEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES
52:17HOW THINGS CAN FALL APART AND
52:19COME UNGLUED WHEN THERE ARE
52:21SCAPEGOATS, WHEN PEOPLE FEEL
52:26DISENFRANCHISED AND DISPOSSESS
52:29DISPOSSESSED.
52:30AND IN EUROPE WE'VE SEEN HOW A
52:32BIGOTED EXTREME RIGHT CAN GAIN
52:34GROUND REMARKABLY QUICKLY.
52:37>> LET'S FOCUS ON OREGON AND YAM
52:39HILL, YAM HILL, OREGON WHERE YOU
52:40NOW LIVE.
52:41THAT'S A STRIKING THING
52:42THAT ONE-THIRD OF THE KIDS YOU
52:45RODE THE SCHOOL BUS WITH HAVE
52:47DIED OF SUICIDE, DEPRESSION OR
52:48DRUG OVERDOSES OR ADDICTION.
52:51AND THAT'S TIED IN TO THE BOTH
52:53MISTRUST OF THE ELITES AND THE
52:55POPULIST BACKLASH.
52:57MOST JOURNALISTS IN AMERICA ARE
52:58OUT OF TOUCH WITH THINGS LIKE
52:59THAT.
53:05WHY IS IT THAT THIS NOT BETTER
53:07UNDERSTOOD, AND WE DON'T SEEM TO
53:08HAVE A GOOD LANGUAGE TO WRITE
53:09ABOUT IT?
53:10>> I THINK THAT, LOOK, I SPENT A
53:12LOT OF TIME IN IRAQ AND
53:14AFGHANISTAN COVERING THOSE WARS.
53:16AND THEY WERE IMPORTANT TO
53:19COVER.
53:19BUT EVERY 2 1/2 WEEKS, WE LOSE
53:22MORE AMERICANS TO DRUGS,
53:24ALCOHOL, AND SUICIDE THAN WE
53:25LOST IN 20 YEARS OF WAR IN IRAQ
53:26AND AFGHANISTAN.
53:29AND I DON'T THINK THAT WE IN
53:31JOURNALISM, I DON'T THINK OUR
53:32ELECTED LEADERS, I DON'T THINK
53:34THE PUBLIC HAS COME TO GRIPS
53:36WITH THE PAIN ACROSS THE COUNTRY
53:39IN SO MANY HOMES, THE
53:41DEVASTATION IN SO MANY
53:43COMMUNITIES, NOR HAVE WE DEVOTED
53:44THE RESOURCES TO TRY TO GET
53:46THESE PLACES BACK ON THEIR FEET.
53:48AND SO WHEN PEOPLE FEEL
53:51NEGLECTED AND IGNORED AND IN
53:57ENTIRELY WRONG, AND IF WE ARE
54:00GOING TO HEAL THE DIVISIONS AND
54:02ADDRESS THESE CONSPIRACY
54:03THEORIES AND MAKE THIS SOIL LESS
54:06FERTILE FOR DEMAGOGUES, THEN WE
54:07ALSO HAVE TO ADDRESS THAT
54:10BROADER OPPORTUNITY.
54:12AND I THINK PEOPLE THINK IT'S
54:14JUST THE WHITE WORKING CLASS.
54:17I THINK THAT IT WAS INITIALLY
54:19MOST OBVIOUS IN THE WHITE
54:20WORKING CLASS, BUT INCREASINGLY,
54:22WE'VE SEEN PEOPLE OF COLOR
54:23LIKEWISE WORKING CLASS PEOPLE OF
54:26COLOR LIKEWISE FEELING THE SAME
54:28SENSE OF BETRAYAL AND NEGLECT
54:31AND THIS IS FUNDAMENTALLY I
54:32THINK ABOUT LACK OF OPPORTUNITY
54:33AND I THINK WE CAN DO A LOT
54:35BETTER.
54:37EDUCATION I THINK IS THE BEST
54:39ANTIDOTE TO THIS.
54:39IF WE TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW
54:41PEOPLE CAN BECOME COMPETITIVE.
54:42WE'VE GOT TO DO A BETTER JOB
54:44EDUCATING, GIVING THEM A SKILL
54:47SET SO THEY CAN COMPETE IN THE
54:4821st CENTURY.
54:48AND WHEN ONE IN SEVEN KIDS STILL
54:51DOESN'T GRADUATE FROM HIGH
54:51SCHOOL, WE ARE FAILING THEM.
54:53WE FAIL THEM BEFORE THEY FAIL
54:55US.
54:55>> NICK KRISTOF, THANK YOU SO
54:56MUCH FOR JOIN US.
54:57>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, WALTER.
54:59>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, A
55:01HORSEY HOMECOMING.
55:03AFTER NEARLY TWO CENTURY, WILD
55:05HORSES HAVE BEEN REINTRODUCED TO
55:07THEIR NATURAL HABITAT ON THE
55:08GRASSY PLAINS OF KAZAKHSTAN.
55:11CZECH MILITARY AIRCRAFT
55:12AIRLIFTED THE ENDANGERED ANIMALS
55:14ALL THE WAY FROM PRAGUE AND
55:16BERLIN, WHERE THEY'D BEEN LIVING
55:17IN ZOOS.
55:19OF COURSE, IN-FLIGHT MEALS WERE
55:21PROVIDED, AND THEY RECEIVED A
55:22WARM WELCOME.
55:22IT'S NOT JUST THE HORSES THAT
55:26BENEFIT.
55:27THEIR GRAZING ALSO HELPS TO
55:29PREVENT THE SPREAD OF NONNATIVE
55:31PLANTS AND FIRES IN THE PLAINS.
55:33SO IT'S WIN-WIN.
55:34AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM
55:35TONIGHT.
55:36IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S
55:38COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP
55:39FOR OUR NEWS IT WILL AT
55:42PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
55:44THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE
55:47FROM LONDON.