Often hailed as the King of Urban Gospel, singer, rapper, producer and entrepreneur Kirk Franklin shares his journey to become one of the most recognizable voices in gospel, how he continues to disrupt his industry, and his best business advice for the next generation of music entrepreneurs.
Kirk Franklin, Singer & Songwriter
Interviewer: Seth Cohen, Chief Impact Officer, Forbes
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Kirk Franklin, Singer & Songwriter
Interviewer: Seth Cohen, Chief Impact Officer, Forbes
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Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00Please welcome to the stage, interviewer Seth Cohen,
00:03Chief Impact Officer Forbes,
00:06and singer and songwriter, Kirk Franklin.
00:09Let's get this going.
00:14Thank you.
00:18Take a seat there.
00:19Thank you, thank you.
00:20All right, y'all, I can't lie,
00:23I've been excited about this all day, all month.
00:27Pretty much since I watched the Henry Louis Gates
00:31documentary, Gospel, on PBS earlier this year,
00:35and if y'all haven't watched it, you gotta watch this.
00:37There is an entire section of this documentary
00:41about you, Kirk.
00:45You are a bridge between so much of the gospel tradition
00:50and the gospel future.
00:52But before we get into what maybe is exciting about that,
00:55maybe what are some of the roadblocks of that,
00:58I want to just, when you started,
01:00when you were with the family,
01:01and you started your trajectory, your journey,
01:07what were you thinking?
01:08What were you thinking when you redefined
01:11the game of gospel music?
01:13Well, first of all, I'm very honored to be here
01:15with you, Seth, and thank you for the opportunity.
01:16And to be honest with you, I didn't start with the family.
01:20My first major opportunity was with the choir
01:23called the Georgia Mass Choir.
01:26And it was in 1991, and I wrote a song called Joy.
01:32And it ended up being a song that brought opportunities
01:36to me, and I came here to Atlanta to record the song.
01:39It's on YouTube.
01:40You can see it.
01:41I was, you know, I still had that S-curl, you know?
01:44And, you know, and I didn't know the trajectory.
01:50Like, there was no master plan.
01:53There was no game plan.
01:54Well, not to your knowledge.
01:56There may have been somebody who had a master plan.
01:57Somebody had a master plan.
01:58It just wasn't Kirk, right?
02:00And so I didn't know that these songs,
02:01because, you know, I'm not a singer.
02:05I just, God loaned me this gift of songwriting.
02:09And so I would write songs, and I've been playing
02:11since I was four.
02:12So being able to play the music,
02:14and be able to play the melodies,
02:16and to be able to have lyrics and stories
02:19given to me from heaven, I've been just grateful
02:24to just try to tell the story
02:26of the greatest love story ever told.
02:30And I'm still trying my best to do that today.
02:33Well, when we were talking backstage,
02:35I mentioned, you know, it's funny.
02:36I'm like a nice Jewish boy
02:39that I like to think I'm a nice Jewish boy.
02:41My wife's in the audience.
02:42She can tell you if I am or not.
02:44But, you know, when I first started listening
02:46to music in the gospel tradition,
02:50I thought to myself, man,
02:51I'm down with bringing some Saturday night
02:53into my Sunday morning.
02:55And then I remembered that I actually go
02:57to synagogue on Saturdays, not Sundays.
02:59So it was confusing.
03:01But.
03:01Hilarious.
03:02But what changed.
03:03That is funny, bro.
03:08But what changed when you were doing it alone?
03:12I mean, I think you have been the architect
03:14of shifting to the choir, to the movement.
03:17So you had the family.
03:18You have now the nation.
03:20And we're watching Elevation Music.
03:22We're watching Maverick.
03:23We're watching some of that tradition
03:25in the praise and worship line.
03:27But when did you realize you couldn't do it alone
03:30and you needed the choir?
03:32You needed the family.
03:33You needed the nation.
03:34Well, some of that interestingly has to do
03:38with my own personal life.
03:39I was adopted and I don't have family.
03:42And that's the reason why I called the first group,
03:44Kirk Franklin and the family,
03:46because I don't, I wasn't raised with cousins
03:49and relatives.
03:50It was me and this older lady that adopted me
03:53and it was a very lonely life.
03:54So I've always enjoyed community.
03:57And that's what kind of gave me that context.
04:01And so that's why I call it the family
04:02or whether it's God's property or the new nation.
04:05I've always loved being able to teach people these songs
04:07and they can sing it.
04:09And so, and there is that evolution
04:12of that into Maverick City or even Elevation.
04:17But the difference is, is that there's still something
04:19very at its core about the black story
04:23that exists in gospel music
04:24that does not always exist in this transition.
04:28And so unfortunately, a lot of times these moments
04:32are still without the struggle
04:35of what black people have gone through
04:37that has always been the soundtrack of gospel music.
04:40Well, let's dig into that because again,
04:42this was something I learned when I started doing
04:45kind of my research and really getting into it
04:47is that the gospel tradition, but particularly publishing
04:52has been a roadmap for so many artists.
04:55I mean, we talk about Thomas Dorsey,
04:56we talk about Chicago coming out.
04:58I mean, that was very quickly artists understood
05:01it wasn't just performing.
05:03It was owning the sheet music.
05:05It was owning the music.
05:06So tell me a little bit about the business side of that
05:09and how you've thought about it
05:10because that seems to be as much of an engine
05:13even for you today as it is.
05:15And even unfortunately, when I first started,
05:17I loved the craft more than I loved the business.
05:20And so my publishing deals were not good
05:23when I first started.
05:24I suffered a lot because of them
05:26where my first publishing deal,
05:30they took 100% of my publishing.
05:33And so the majority of my albums,
05:36but once again, it was a deal
05:39that I was not clear on the gravity of it,
05:43but I knew that I was giving it up.
05:46I just didn't know how deep it was going to affect me.
05:51I just wanted to do music.
05:53And so there is a business component
05:56that a lot of times, even in faith-based music,
05:59the faith-based component is always talked so much
06:02that it's almost like you are guilted
06:06if you wanna think about the business part.
06:08There's a guilt that you're supposed to be doing it for God.
06:11And so you're not profiting as much as you should.
06:16I mean, by God's grace,
06:18I've sold almost 14, 15 million albums.
06:22And, but when you don't own your publishing.
06:26Yeah.
06:27Well, so let's-
06:28Those are just numbers.
06:29So this thing, Kirk,
06:31this is something we just talked about it
06:33for a moment backstage.
06:34But let's be real right now.
06:37What you just described happens to black artists,
06:39black athletes, black creators,
06:41black cultural people throughout history.
06:45And throughout this country's history.
06:48How is that showing up right now?
06:50And I mentioned a few bands right now
06:52that are identifying again in the praise and worship
06:55that have white leadership.
06:59Is the industry catching up or is it still behind
07:02when it comes to making sure the dollar paid
07:05to the black artists are the same dollars
07:08being paid to the white artists?
07:09Like, let's be real about this for a moment.
07:10Well, it's not the fundamentals that are now the problem
07:16because more black artists are now aware
07:20of what these deals and the ownership should be.
07:24That's not the problem now.
07:26The problem now that exists is the issues
07:28that are still wrapped into the systemic problems,
07:32the challenges.
07:33Meaning that a Christian artist,
07:36and when I say Christian, you guys understand
07:37there's a difference between Christian and gospel.
07:39Most times Christians are gonna be more
07:41European based music.
07:44The community and the audience, for example,
07:46like there is a process called LCLI.
07:53I think that's what it's called.
07:54Where white churches that sing the songs
07:59that white Christian artists have written,
08:00they're getting publishing from the songs
08:03being sung on Sunday morning.
08:06Ain't no black church in America
08:10paying no black gospel artists to sing their songs
08:12at church on Sunday morning.
08:14And I'm gonna be very honest with you,
08:15I'm torn with that.
08:16Like, I don't know if a black church should be paying me
08:22on Sunday mornings to be singing my music.
08:25So I'm not saying that I'm totally bought into it,
08:29but I do know that that in itself gives you a framework
08:33that white Christian artists and white churches
08:36are happy to do it.
08:38Like white churches are not even arguing against
08:41paying Christian songwriters and artists
08:44to sing their songs on Sunday.
08:46So that even in itself,
08:48that goes into the systemic wiring
08:50of what white people are raised thinking about business.
08:53They don't let their Christianity suffocate their business.
08:57So, wait, say that.
09:00They don't let their Christianity suffocate.
09:02They don't let their Christianity suffocate their business.
09:05For example, many people here know of a grandmama
09:09or great grandmama that's been going to a church
09:11where the building program at that church
09:13been going on for the last 50 years.
09:16And grandmama been giving all her money to that church
09:19and that church still ain't got that youth annex.
09:22See, he's taking us to church right now.
09:27Can I get a witness?
09:28Can y'all know me?
09:29Yeah.
09:31Now I feel right at home.
09:33Now you feel good.
09:34I appreciate it.
09:35Now you feel good.
09:36Now I feel right at home.
09:37Look, you have had such a phenomenal career, like I said,
09:41and it's not over.
09:42It feels like in lots of ways, it's just getting started.
09:44You had a documentary come out.
09:46Father's Day, you had your album, newest album come out,
09:49which is just lighting up.
09:51If y'all haven't watched the documentary,
09:53if y'all haven't listened, honestly, check it out.
09:55It tells you so much about this man and his greatness
09:58and the greatness that he's been blessed to have around him.
10:00But what's keeping you energized and motivated?
10:03Like, you're still doing this.
10:04It's such a high proficiency.
10:05You're flying in, you're still coming back from Texas.
10:08What's keeping you going?
10:09Well, to be honest with you is that some people
10:11are motivated and stimulated by their trauma.
10:14I can be very humble and say that my abandonment issues,
10:17not having a mother, not having a father,
10:19the abandonment that I've lived through,
10:21is that I am driven by the fact
10:24that I can't afford for you to forget me.
10:29And so I am forever a brand new artist.
10:32Every record I do is my first album.
10:35Is that I can't sleep if you don't like it,
10:37because you're not liking it means you don't like me.
10:40And so I'm driven.
10:42I'm driven more now than ever before.
10:45Every project I do, I'm hungry.
10:48And I don't have to always get a dollar to do it.
10:51I've never been driven.
10:52And some of that has been to my demise.
10:54But overall, the fact that I'm still able
10:57to have the bigger conversations of life with people,
11:00and they still want to hear me,
11:01I'm very grateful to have that opportunity.
11:03Well, you are loved, as we can say it, in many ways.
11:08And again, but, but, but.
11:10Woo!
11:11Woo!
11:12Woo!
11:12Woo!
11:13Woo!
11:14Woo!
11:15Woo!
11:16Woo!
11:17Woo!
11:17And I did get enough money to get my teeth fixed, so.
11:19But who, you know, with, again,
11:25someone that has had this uncommon favor,
11:26which has, which has seen grace in so many different ways.
11:30Amen.
11:31You're now listening to this next generation.
11:32Who's getting you excited?
11:34I mean, I showed you my playlist backstage.
11:36Who's getting you excited?
11:37It's I love Chandler Moore.
11:38I love Jonathan McReynolds.
11:40I love Doe.
11:40I love, I, I, I, I love the Wall Scoop.
11:45I love, man, I love, of course, Tasha.
11:51I love, man, I just love anybody.
11:55I love Kalante Gavin.
11:57I love all the younger artists that are,
11:59that are still keeping the bigger conversation going
12:01about how dope God is, and so, you know.
12:04What can we do?
12:05I mean, because this,
12:06this is another family you're a part of now,
12:09the Forbes BLK family.
12:10And we talk about all the time
12:13that we're not just about wealth.
12:15We're about prosperity.
12:16We talk about how at Forbes BLK,
12:18we're not just about ownership.
12:19We're about equity.
12:20And we're not just about power,
12:21but we're about empowering people.
12:23Yes.
12:24That's the mission.
12:24So what advice do you have for all of us
12:27as part of this family of ways
12:29that we can both support the industry,
12:32support maybe some of that,
12:33like prevent some of that inequity that's showing up?
12:36Like, what can we be doing
12:38as the extended family for, for Kirk?
12:41Is I think the first thing that,
12:43that can happen since you know
12:45that the origin of all black music
12:47in this country was gospel music.
12:49Before there was blues,
12:50before there was R&B,
12:51it originated from gospel.
12:53And so because of that,
12:54I think that the biggest thing that you can do
12:56is you can continue to be loud about the deficiency
13:00and not accept the inadequacy of the content.
13:04Don't give it a pass just because it's gospel.
13:06If it's a gospel tour or a gospel play, gospel music,
13:09just don't give it a pass.
13:11If it's not high quality,
13:13if it's not super serving,
13:14if it's not at the level of excellence,
13:15be loud about it, critique it.
13:18It's because I think sometimes historically
13:20when people have conversations about God, about Jesus,
13:23you don't want to say anything about it,
13:24but that's not making us better.
13:26It honestly makes us lazy.
13:28And I think that you got to hold the church accountable.
13:30You've got to hold the community accountable.
13:32The excellence should be the par.
13:35And when it's not excellent,
13:36be loud and say something
13:37because you cannot let people pass off
13:40and think that they're doing good
13:42when they're not meeting the bar
13:44of what you know high quality should be.
13:45Never settle, never settle.
13:47Never settle.
13:48No matter the lyrical content, do not let it settle.
13:51Push people and challenge people
13:53to be the greatness that they are,
13:54not just because they're talking about God.
13:57Y'all, when I asked for this conversation,
14:02they said, how long could this conversation be on?
14:04Like I could talk on stage with him for two hours,
14:06but Jabari and Randall said no.
14:08So we're already scheming to do
14:09a little bit of a podcast action on this.
14:11But before I let you go,
14:13I refer to myself as an applied optimist
14:16because being optimistic in 2024
14:18might be just a bit naive.
14:20Like we got some challenges.
14:23We heard Stacey Abrams and Ayanna
14:25and some great people spoke this morning
14:27about how black women are helping lead us
14:29through those challenges.
14:30Yes.
14:31And I get an amen for that too.
14:33Yes, yes.
14:34I guess I'm-
14:35And we also have to talk about
14:38those misogynistic messages
14:40that are also coming from the pulpit.
14:41Say they like churches as well.
14:43So that's what I'm saying is that
14:45this is the era,
14:46this is the era of deconstruction.
14:48And I think that anybody that has a faith
14:50that cannot be challenged
14:51can easily turn into a cult.
14:54Yeah.
14:56So let me ask you one last question.
15:01Let me ask you one last question then.
15:03So what's keeping you optimistic?
15:04How are you an applied optimist?
15:06And so when we all like,
15:08because they're all recording you.
15:09Yeah.
15:10I'm watching.
15:11They're not recording me.
15:12Although my kicks are cool,
15:12but they're recording you.
15:14It's I've been recorded before.
15:16So.
15:17What's keeping you optimistic?
15:19I know what it's like for somebody
15:20to put out a recording on you.
15:25They got that.
15:26You didn't get that,
15:26but they got that.
15:30Time's up.
15:32As I say,
15:34I'll say that what keeps me motivated
15:35is more than anything
15:36is that I don't have all the answers.
15:39And I know the historical challenges
15:40that Western Christianity has done to our people.
15:43And I know sometimes the financial
15:45and the socioeconomic challenges
15:47that the church could have done a better job early on.
15:49And I don't know all the solutions,
15:50but what I don't know
15:52does not cancel out what I do know.
15:55And what I do know
15:55that there's too much about life
15:57that I can't put a hand on.
15:58Science can't put a hand on.
16:00Intelligence, technology can't.
16:02That there's something bigger
16:03and somebody bigger
16:04that is working all things together for my good.
16:08And that's what I sleep in.
16:09That's what I believe in.
16:10And I still believe that Jesus is the light of the world.
16:13So.
16:14Amen.
16:16Thank you.
16:19You just crushed that.
16:19Thank you.
16:20Thank you.
16:22Thank you all.
16:23Kirk Franklin.