Democratic strategist Melissa DeRosa joins "Forbes Newsroom" to discuss President Biden's debate performance and the "gaslighting" that occurred to cover up Biden's possible mental decline, who is to blame, why Vice President Kamala Harris is the only option besides Biden for Democrats, and what Democrats must do next to still win in 2024.
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00:00Hi, everybody. I'm Brittany Lewis with Forbes Breaking News. Joining me now is Melissa De Rosa,
00:07Democratic strategist and former secretary under New York Governor Andrew Cuomo.
00:11Melissa, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks so much for having me, Brittany.
00:15I want to talk about where we are now and when we last talked. So we last talked, you were one
00:20of my first conversations post debate Friday morning. There was a mix from you as a Democrat,
00:26shock and anger. Now we sit here. It is Wednesday afternoon. How have your feelings changed,
00:32developed? What are you thinking? I mean, I think the shock has sort of worn off. The anger has set
00:38in. But now it's also time to be like, where do we go from here? And it's time to be constructive
00:46and pick a path. And I think that that is where the party is moving very, very quickly.
00:51And you wrote a piece this morning about President Biden's debate performance,
00:55as well as the fallout from that. And it's titled this Stop Gaslighting, Get with Reality,
01:00Make a Choice Fast. First, let's talk about the first half here.
01:04Talk about the gaslighting. Who's responsible? What are they saying?
01:09Well, you know, as I write in my piece, there's a couple of days, right? It's like they did this.
01:14And one day is the White House, the top people at the White House, top people in the Biden
01:19campaign, potentially cabinet secretaries, United States senators, members of Congress.
01:25And the first family. And then there's the they, which is the media, which very clearly
01:31looked the other way on this story for at least months, if not a year plus.
01:36And so on both of those fronts, it's incredibly dangerous, right? Trust in government is already
01:42at an all time low. This only reinforces that trust in the media is at an all time low. Donald
01:48Trump famously dubbed fake news in 2016. And ever since then, you have seen faith in media and every
01:55poll go down lower and lower and lower. And there was Wall Street Journal piece that came out a
02:00couple of weeks ago where they said that Biden was slowing down, losing a step behind the scenes.
02:06And the pushback on that piece was fast and furious and sort of universal. And it looks like
02:12the reality is that that reporter was right. And all of the people that were pushing back on it
02:18were lying. So, you know, it's it's it's it's both sides because the media also was not quick
02:24to jump on the Wall Street Journal's bandwagon and say this is true and write a series of stories
02:28about it. They sort of got defensive. So it hurts everyone on all fronts. And it's the worst
02:34possible thing that could happen for government and democracy. I want to talk about that,
02:40like the trust in media a bit there, because if someone were to suggest pre-debate, obviously,
02:47that President Biden was showing signs of slipping like the Wall Street Journal did.
02:51There were some gaffes over the past year that have accelerated.
02:54They would be considered fringe, potentially right wing propaganda. What do you think the
03:00lesson is here? The lesson is call balls and strikes. You know, I wrote about this in my
03:06column. Jill Abramson, who used to be the executive editor for The New York Times,
03:11put out this statement yesterday that was mind spinning, because on the one hand,
03:16she was taking the White House and the Bidens to task for this massive cover up, as she put it,
03:22and then sort of lambasting the media for failing to do her job.
03:26But she had this one line in her statement where she said, I fear that the reporters
03:31didn't want to write these stories because it could be viewed as helping Trump, which I
03:36understand, dot, dot, dot. No. What? Which you understand? This is why no one has faith in the
03:44media, because the media's role is not to be an activist. The media's role is regardless of
03:50favor, regardless of personal feelings, regardless of editorial board leadings,
03:55to call balls and strikes. And it's clear that over time, that responsibility has eroded,
04:01which has led to this situation where we all kind of talk to ourselves, right? We've got curated
04:06Twitter feeds, curated social media channels. If you want to hear one version of reality,
04:11watch Fox News. If you want to watch a different version of reality, watch MSNBC.
04:15And it used to be that there was one truth and you would make up your mind. And the country's
04:20media system has completely broken down. And so now no one's going to trust anything.
04:26Well, that brings us to the second part of your headline. Get with reality, make a choice fast.
04:32What are the two choices? Because you lay out these two very clear paths
04:36Democrats are now confronted with. Well, you know, last time we talked on Friday,
04:41we were talking about how all this fantasy football was going on. Michelle Obama,
04:45Gavin Newsom, you know, who could it potentially be? Maybe somebody we're not thinking of Leon
04:50Panetta, whoever. But, you know, five days later, the smoke has cleared. There are two paths. And
04:55there's two reasons why there's two paths. One is the Obama I'm sorry, the Biden Harris campaign has
05:02$240 million in the bank. Campaign finance rules make it so that that money cannot be transferred.
05:08So if someone other than Biden or Harris are at the top of that ticket, it's like you're
05:15setting that money on fire. You can't transfer it to anyone. You're starting from literally zero.
05:20So that very practical reality has to play a role in this conversation.
05:25Two, the polling numbers that have come out in the last several days have actually shown
05:29in head to heads that Harris would is best positioned to go against Trump. Other that,
05:35you know, even when you consider Gretchen Whitmer, Gavin Newsom, Pete Buttigieg.
05:40And so when you have those two things that are staring you in the face, coupled with the fact
05:47that the Democratic Party, Big Ten Party, we value women, we value minorities, we like to lift people
05:53up, how we could possibly circumvent the first ever black female vice president, given that she's
05:59pulling stronger than the others. And given that you lose $240 million, your options are clear.
06:05Either you stick with Joe Biden and pray to God that Donald Trump implodes and that Joe Biden
06:10plays error proof ball and he goes out and he sits with The New York Times and he sits with 60
06:15Minutes and he does unscripted events. He stops speaking just to teleprompters and that somehow,
06:22you know, everything comes together in a perfect storm for him, which is highly unlikely, but could
06:27happen. Or you switch horses and you go to Kamala Harris. She keeps the money. She gets elevated to
06:34the top of the ticket. She gets to pick a new VP, which I suggest to Josh Shapiro, who is
06:40governor of Pennsylvania. So you get, you know, potentially pick up a swing state with those
06:44politics and you hope that the energy of this historic nomination carries you through to the
06:50finish line. But I do not see anyone else as a viable alternative at this point.
06:55So let's just get this straight. You just want to squash the rumors of the Michelle Obama fantasy.
07:00I mean, she herself has said she's not getting back into politics. The Gavin Newsom, the Gretchen
07:05Whitmer. This is fantasy. And Democrats either have Biden or Harris. And that's it.
07:11That's right. And we shouldn't. We have 35 days. The deadline is not the convention.
07:16The deadline is the Ohio presidential ballot certification, which takes place on August 7th.
07:21There's a quirk in the law. It happens in advance of the convention. So really,
07:25we're staring at August 7th, which means as of today, we have 35 days to figure this out.
07:32And every day that we waste spinning around talking about these unrealistic options and
07:37flailing about sort of, you know, blaming one another and reading these stories in the press,
07:42leaked stories about where everybody is, is another day that favors Donald Trump.
07:47And ultimately, if the goal of the party is to keep the country and keep going on
07:53a certain trajectory, then we've got to get our act together quickly.
07:57So let's talk about the first path of Biden staying in this race. When you and I talked Friday,
08:01you mentioned that you were looking for the response of the party elders.
08:05The party elders have responded. And publicly, former President Obama said,
08:10hey, this was a bad debate night, but Biden's the better option.
08:13Former President Bill Clinton said, hey, debate aside, once again,
08:18Biden is better than Trump. What do you think of their public responses?
08:23I mean, I think that the fact that their public responses have been confined to Twitter,
08:29have been confined to social media is all you need to know. Neither one of the former
08:33presidents is out doing sit downs on the front lines, defending Joe Biden and saying,
08:39I know this man, he is up for the job. He can do the job. I've served alongside him. I've had
08:45that job. I know what it takes. And I know he's up for it. Neither of them are doing it.
08:49And now you're starting to hear stories where privately Barack Obama is, you know, voicing
08:54concerns to staff and to others about what this could all mean and if he could win. And so I think
09:02the muted response tells you everything. Neither of them are playing sort of a leadership role
09:08in ushering Joe Biden off the stage. And they're not playing a leadership role in defending him,
09:14which also tells you a lot about sort of where the party in general is. There's a real lack of
09:19leadership from the top on down, which is why I think you're seeing all of this flailing and
09:24infighting start to spill into the press. And I'm not comparing the two instances at all,
09:30but the last time we saw this level of chaos in a party, Republicans infighting about Kevin
09:37McCarthy and the House speaker fight. This feels like that type of infighting on steroids. Politico
09:43reported the dam is starting to break with Democrats. There was a Democratic congressman
09:48who asked Biden to step aside publicly yesterday. A few a few Democrats have said that they think
09:54that Trump's going to win ahead of Biden. One even said, and I'm OK with that. What do you
09:58think about the Democratic lawmakers response so far? You know, look, ultimately, everyone is about
10:06themselves, right? This is politics. And so there is the top of the ticket damage, which could be
10:14that we lose the White House, which the effects of that are, you know, it's an unmitigated disaster.
10:18It could be more Supreme Court judge picks. It could be general picks if you're controlling all
10:23three houses of government, all three branches of government. Excuse me. Like, what does that
10:27mean? Practically speaking, there's the trickle down effect. If there's someone who's really weak
10:32at the top of the ticket and you know that they're going to lose, then the member of Congress that
10:37is on that same ticket has a greater likelihood of going down. So I think what you're starting
10:42to see is some members of Congress voice their opposition to this. They are putting their finger
10:47into the wind and seeing where it blows. And they're getting out in front and saying, well,
10:51I said he needed to go because they're concerned about how it's going to impact them. And I think
10:57that that that's just the reality of how politics work. You know, reporters call up. They put the
11:03camera in your face. What do you think? How can you possibly stand by this? They start to feel a
11:07little bit of pressure. And then, as Ernest Hemingway famously said, you know, how do these
11:11things happen gradually and then all at once? And so like when you see the dam break, it will come
11:18fast and furious if it breaks. You know, Biden's doing everything he can today to try to stave it
11:23off. But we'll see how quickly this breaks. So let's talk about President Biden and his response.
11:29Friday, he indicated I'm staying in this race. He had a few speeches today. The New York Times
11:36reported that he told a close ally he's reportedly weighing whether he should stay in the race.
11:40The White House pushed back and said that is not the case. He has a George Stephanopoulos interview
11:45this weekend. Part of it's coming out Friday, the rest on Sunday. What do you think is going on in
11:50his head? Do you think he's planning to stay in? He's fighting for his life. He's fighting for his
11:56political life right now. And I think he's doing what his advisers are telling him he should be
12:01doing in order to assuage, you know, voters concerns and party members concerns and show
12:08everyone he can do this. I think that they're doing it wrong. I think that going out immediately
12:14and putting him up with only teleprompters, you know, gives people something to say, oh, yeah,
12:18he's fine on a teleprompter. But like, what about when he's not on a teleprompter? I think being in
12:23these very scripted settings is problematic and not doing enough to assuage voters concerns.
12:28And sitting down with George Stephanopoulos, who I personally have a tremendous amount of respect for
12:33as a journalist and as a former public servant, I'm not the right choice. Because number one,
12:39it's a pre taped interview, which is going to allow those who want to spin conspiracy theories
12:45about what was left on the cutting room floor to spin those conspiracy theories. And two, he's a
12:50former top aide to President Clinton. And so he's someone that I think the right and the middle
12:56could be convinced is not, you know, the most unbiased person to be doing this particular
13:02important interview. And so I think just to answer your first question,
13:07Joe Biden is fighting for his political life. He's got the governor's a meeting with the
13:11Democratic governors today to try to keep them on the reservation. You know, he's working the
13:16phones with congressional leadership, and he is doing everything he can to stay exactly where he
13:21is. And the question is, will it be enough? And do you think it will be enough?
13:27On this trajectory? No, I don't think it will be enough. If something happens, if they start doing
13:33things a little bit differently, maybe, maybe I'm wrong. You know, maybe he can be very convincing
13:38publicly, maybe he has enough goodwill garnered where he can get people to hold off. But I think
13:43if you see a couple more polls coming out, if the New York Times Sienna drops later today, for
13:47example, or tomorrow, and shows, you know, their last poll, Trump was up three, if it shows that
13:53Trump is up five, Trump is up six, Trump is up seven, I think you're going to see the House of
13:59Cards come falling down. This is going to be a numbers game. So now let's talk about option
14:03number two, Kamala Harris becomes the nominee. Do you think that's the better option? Would that
14:09excite more voters who feel disenfranchised right now who say, hey, this isn't the person I voted
14:14for in the primary, meaning Joe Biden? You know, look, these are two bad options.
14:20This is, you know, picking between two bad options. I'm not I don't know that one is favored over the
14:25other. I think that we're in uncharted territory on both. Kamala Harris is someone who historically
14:30has been very unpopular. At the same time, she would be a history making candidate.
14:35She is incredibly articulate. She is incredibly forceful. I could see a situation where she were
14:40to debate Donald Trump and where she, you know, wipes the floor with him. I think she can be
14:45very strong and good. We've seen that from her in past debate performances. I think she would
14:49have a lot of energy to run around the country. But for whatever reason, historically, she has
14:55pulled incredibly poorly. And so I think you will see a boom lit immediately if she were to take the
15:01reins where there would be a burst of energy. I think you would see a round of press from the
15:05mainstream media that would be positive towards Kamala Harris. And then I think, you know, it's
15:10not going to be about the first week, the second week. It'll be the six, eight, 12 weeks that follow
15:15what comes from there. And it's just unknown. And so it's neither of these two choices are great
15:21options, but we got to pick one, unify and go. I am thinking or a lot of reporting that has come
15:29out has said that the writing has been on the wall for President Biden for a while. A lot of top
15:34aides, advisers shielded him from lower levels of the White House, the press, lawmakers. Wouldn't
15:40it have been a better option last year if these top aides realized that to have President Biden
15:47come out and say, hey, I'm going to pass the torch to the younger generation like Nancy Pelosi did
15:53with Hakeem Jeffries and then a younger day? You wouldn't have to have Kamala Harris because
16:00Democrats aren't thrilled about her, according to polls and be Democrats could have been excited
16:06about someone who's not 2020 rematch. Do you think that that was a missed opportunity by Democrats?
16:12Yes, unquestionably. I think that Joe Biden, being 81 years old, should have last year, a year ago
16:21said, I did what I said I was going to do. I won the country back. We took the country back from
16:27from Donald Trump, who was, you know, a problem of epic proportions for all of these different
16:33reasons. I stabilized things post covid. I came what I I came and did what I said I would do.
16:39And now it's time to pass the torch. It could have been an open primary. You could have had
16:44Gavin Newsom and Gretchen Whitmer and Josh Shapiro and Westmore and all Kamala Harris and all of
16:50these people go in. Then the Democratic electorate would have been able to vet them, air their
16:55potential baggage, see what attacks stick and don't stick. A lot of times people are good on paper,
17:01but then you actually see them on stage or on the national field and they fall apart.
17:05There's a reason you need a robust primary process. And then the cream would have rised
17:10to the top. We would have gotten the person that the party truly wanted to get behind.
17:15And you would have had this burst of energy going into the Donald Trump election. And I think that
17:20we would be sitting here today plus four, plus five, plus six. I don't think we would be anywhere
17:26close to where we are right now. So obviously, that didn't happen. That's not the case. Now
17:32we're presented with these two options. As you're saying, how do Democrats get voters excited and
17:37regain that trust? It's going to have to be that, you know, Joe, if it's Joe Biden, he's going to
17:44have to barnstorm. He's going to have to keep up a rigorous schedule. He is going to need to
17:50be out there doing unscripted things, doing unscripted interviews, sometimes unfriendly
17:54audiences and prove to people that he is up for this job. And the Democratic Party is going to
17:59have to decide if it's him. We're all going to shut up and fall in line, which is something
18:03Democrats are not very good at. If it's Kamala, we've got to hope and pray that the historic
18:09nature of her candidacy excites young voters, excites, you know, the African-American base,
18:15excites females. And then it gets enough people to drive out that we're able to overcome what will be
18:21what already is an enthusiasm gap between us and Republicans. And she's got to be out there
18:25appealing to the middle. So, look, on the one hand, she comes with all the Biden baggage,
18:32right, because they can say Bidenomics caused inflation and that's your inflation, Kamala
18:37Harris. The Middle East is falling apart and you didn't do anything about it. Immigration, that's
18:42you. And so she's still going to have to answer for Joe Biden's record and, you know, get more
18:47nimble and go on office and articulate a vision. But there will be this feel to that campaign that
18:53it's history making, that it's exciting. And hopefully that would be enough to propel forward
18:58and sort of give us the reset we need. But again, neither are great options and both are far from a
19:04sure thing. Well, ask Democrats. This is Lincoln. Well, when Democrats make the decision, which it
19:13feels like or it seems like there's going to be a holiday weekend here, then the George
19:18Stephanopoulos interview. And as the dust settles here, a decision is made. Democrats choose a path.
19:24I hope you come back on and we can break it down further. Melissa DeRosa, thank you so much.
19:29I would love to. Thanks for having me, Brittany.