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00:00What film or series lit your fuse and made you have to tell stories on screen?
00:17I mean, the truth is there are a lot of answers for that, but I wanted to give you one that
00:23was maybe outside my normal, you know, outside of Lawrence of Arabia and Badlands and everything
00:30else. And I don't talk about Slinglade enough. You know, I grew up in Arkansas. I grew up in
00:37Little Rock. My dad owned a furniture store there. There just really weren't a lot of touch points
00:45to films being made in my home state. And I can't underestimate the influence of being able to go
00:53watch a film in a theater that was shot, you know, nearby where I grew up, that had people
00:58that sounded like relatives of mine, people that sounded like, you know, people that I grew up with.
01:06And then to have that film also achieve the level of success that it did, it really seemed to
01:15to bring down to earth a little bit the idea of being involved in this business, you know.
01:24Then if you step back from that impact, the film's just incredible, you know.
01:32It's a film that's observant. It's a film that's beautifully directed. And it's hilarious and cruel
01:42and real. And also at times feels absurd, but it never feels dishonest. And I think that's something
01:54I search for in my work, you know, something that is entertaining and can live on a giant screen in
02:05a movie theater and can attract people to come see it, but at the same time reaches a level of
02:12honesty with its character and its storytelling. I mean, any scene with Dwight Yoakam is incredible
02:20in that movie and both hilarious and devastating all at the same time. You know, I would go on
02:29later in my life, but in my first film, Shocking Stories, I was very fortunate to have Natalie
02:35Cannaday play the mother of Michael Shannon's side of the family. And she, of course, was the
02:42mother in Sling Blade. In terms of, you know, performance, though, every single person in that
02:51film is doing something interesting. You know, obviously, Billy Bob's performance draws a lot
02:57of attention. But when I look at Dwight Yoakam's character, just his character work, you know,
03:04he's a guy that I think exists. I think they walk around us, you know, maybe not every day,
03:11but certainly where I grew up, this kind of man that is, I don't know, just has a meanness,
03:18a meanness in them. I've seen it in people. I don't know if that really answers your question.
03:24It's not so filmic. It's really, it's almost literary in terms of its approach to character.
03:30Yeah, it does. No, it's a great answer. So now, so as you were on your way up,
03:36figuring it out as a filmmaker, what movie or series came along and you watched it,
03:43and it was so good, you just said to yourself, boy, can I really play in this sandbox?
03:49Right. The first time I really remember having an experience was in film school,
03:56which makes sense because that's when you're really starting to break down movies, you know,
04:02in a very serious way. I'm starting to look at shot construction. I'm starting to just
04:07really pay attention to how these things get made. And I think, you know, my freshman or
04:12sophomore year, Saving Private Ryan came out and I went to go watch that. And I watched only 20
04:16minutes of that. And I, I pretty much said to myself, I'll never have, you know, the skill
04:22level or the technical ability to achieve anything close to that. Like the amount of
04:27things that happen in that opening 20 minutes is, it's on another level of technical proficiency
04:37in storytelling, you know, because it's not just they pulled off this stunt or they pulled off
04:43that stunt. It's the orchestration of all of it together to give you this effect. You know,
04:47my grandfather was, I think, D-Day plus three. And I walked into that film and I just was,
04:55I was blown away. There's also, you know, moments of heat that feel that way to me,
04:59especially the shootout at the end where you're just like, I don't know if I could ever achieve
05:03something this kinetic. You know, my films are very,
05:09some people say classical, maybe stayed, you know, pretty quiet. It's kind of in part how I kind of
05:16wrap my head around the process, but also it's the style that I like. But when I go into a film
05:22that has this real kinetic energy, that is, it's not there just for the sake of being kinetic.
05:28It's there because it's incredible storytelling, visual storytelling. You're putting the puzzle
05:34pieces together in a, in a way that, that I, I certainly get intimidated by. I would say the
05:41first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan in film school, and then heat, the shootout scene and heat.
05:46Boy, those are, those are two singular examples that you have brought up. And even, you know,
05:54a lot of people cite the coffee shop scene, even that one, the way, the way Michael kind of
06:01pushed it, you know, the way he delayed what you were hoping, that meeting between the two guys,
06:11it was just so masterfully done, I thought. It's a brilliant film. It's a brilliant film. And I
06:17remember it, even with heat in film school, I went to my professor, we were talking about working
06:21with actors. And I was like, how do you ever, how do you ever give Al Pacino a note? And he had a
06:28really interesting thought. He was like, no, no, no. The actors want your thoughts. You know, they,
06:34they want to do great work. You can't be intimidated by them, Jeff. Now this was a film professor in,
06:40in college, you know, who never worked with Al Pacino or Robert De Niro, but it was,
06:44but it stuck with me, you know, it's kind of like, no, get, get over yourself. Like,
06:50like you have a job to do. And, and if you have a thought, go up and tell,
06:54tell the actor the thought, you know. So I was thinking a lot about just how I fit into,
07:03you know, the world of directing, looking at these examples.
07:06Yeah. Well, you know what, what I remember about Michael Mann saying to me was, because I asked
07:12him because they were, there were such studying contracts, the contrasts, those two great actors.
07:18And he said that basically Al's kind of hyper performance was he'd met with enough detectives
07:29where you had to keep an informant from feeling comfortable with you, because then they'd feel
07:36like they could play you. And so, you know, and that was the reason why he would all of a sudden
07:43come out with something outlandish and just to, just to keep the guy on his toes. And it was,
07:51there was a more likelihood that he was going to get honest answers. If he did such a thing,
07:55when he was talking with his informants, did he ever speak, did he ever speak about the fact that
08:02that character was supposed to be on speed? I like, I picked something up through reading heat
08:07too, that, that character was supposed to be taking pills, you know, and which is, but they
08:13kind of edited the mention of that out in the first film, but it, it kind of left this, it left
08:20this performance that felt like it was on speed, you know, but, but took the context of the actual
08:26mention of the pills out. I don't know if man's ever mentioned that, but I think it's in heat too.
08:30I think he mentions him taking pills. So now, so maybe it was a great reaction that you got to
08:36something you did or, you know, or, or approval from someone whose opinion really mattered to you.
08:44What first gave you the confidence that you should be doing this and you could belong if you
08:50continued to work harder at your storytelling? I remember calling my brother, the way the North
08:56Carolina School of the Arts film school was set up, your first two years, everybody takes, you know,
09:02classes in multiple disciplines. And then after your second year, you apply for, and the school
09:08kind of committee decides who's going to go into which discipline. And directing was the one
09:13everybody wanted to go into. It was a small school. I think they only accepted about eight directors
09:17the year that I was there. And I remember my freshman year calling my brother, Ben and saying,
09:23Hey, in two years, if you hear that I got in the directing program, I think that means something,
09:27you know, like, I think that means I'm, I might be, I might have a shot at this. And then my,
09:33my junior year, I went to Cannes with an internship from Kodak in the American Pavilion.
09:40I waited tables at the American Pavilion and someone tipped me in a, a Palais ticket
09:47and to an evening screening. My mom had bought me a tuxedo at Dillard's and I went to the Palais
09:54and I sat in the nosebleeds in my tuxedo. And I looked down when the lights came up at the end,
09:59and I saw these filmmakers down there who had just made a film. And I just thought,
10:04Oh my God, like, like, this is it. Like I'm here, you know, like I'm a part, I'm a part of this.
10:10Again, growing up in Arkansas, it felt like I just needed these kind of,
10:14these touch points to, to make it not even attainable, but just in sight,
10:19just so I can even see it from the nosebleeds. But the truth is the real answer and the kind
10:25of penultimate answer is Roger Ebert. Roger Ebert reviewed my first film,
10:32Shotgun Stories, positively. He put it on his top 10 list of that year,
10:36um, which I don't know how the hell he even found it. You know, we, we premiered in Berlin
10:41and I went to every film festival I possibly could, but here's a guy that I grew up with in my home.
10:47Um, a guy who sometimes I agreed with, sometimes I didn't, that was the beauty of Roger Ebert, but,
10:53um, but, but he was passionate about cinema. He was passionate about film and the fact that he
11:00watched my first film and, uh, and wrote a, not only a positive review, but then put it on his
11:06top 10 list. It felt, it definitely felt like that, uh, a legitimate moment in my, in my path.
11:15So what would you say was the biggest obstacle that you had to overcome to allow you to turn
11:22these projects that influenced you into your own language as a filmmaker?
11:28Well, I say this as a, a bit of a joke and I've said it before in interviews, but it's true. You
11:33know, I've been just unsuccessful enough to have the career that I have. Um, my films, I think
11:40early on, had they reached a larger financial success or something else, you know, I might have
11:46been swept up into a studio system that I wasn't prepared for. And what it really allowed me, um,
11:53um, over the course of my first five, now six films, it has allowed me to develop a voice,
11:59um, which I can, I can now say that without, you know, choking on my own hubris, but the, um,
12:08there aren't many filmmakers, but one, there are not many writer directors. Um, they just don't
12:13grow on trees, but also, um, it's just really hard to have a point of view in this business.
12:19One, because it takes so much money and it takes so many people, you know, to, uh,
12:24to get these things made. It's really hard for filmmakers to develop this point of view,
12:28to develop a voice, um, inside their cinema. Cause there's a lot of hands, you know,
12:33coming in to adjust things. And, and I think I really benefited from having just enough success
12:40to keep making bigger movies. Um, but, but really at each step kind of being
12:49left alone, um, to make mistakes and, and find my, you know, um, find my own style, you know,
12:59um, because you don't come out, no one comes into this world fully developed. Um, it's what makes
13:05some first filmmakers, you know, their projects jaw dropping. Um, cause you wonder, you know,
13:12how did this guy or this woman show up and do this? But, um, but I was given enough,
13:18enough rope, you know, um, to really define myself. It's a, it's not a specific
13:24anecdote of a, of an answer, but it is true. Well, did you, was there maybe, cause you mentioned
13:31you were able to make mistakes. Was there a mistake that you made that maybe you discovered
13:36yourself or was picked up by a reviewer like Ebert where you said, okay, I see. I, I learned
13:44there. I mean, I find, I always learn with setbacks, not victories. Yeah, sure. You know,
13:52um, midnight special is a film that I'm extraordinarily proud of it. I think it's
13:58my most personal film. Um, it's the one I get the most emotional about. And I get emotional
14:05about all my films. I mean, I, I really, I love these things, you know? Um, and
14:14I really was reaching for something narratively in terms of the structure of midnight special.
14:19Um, I wanted it to be like a Russian nesting doll in reverse. So you start with this thing
14:25and then, you know, this other story gets added on top of it and then on top of it and on top of
14:30it. And, uh, it kind of keeps growing and, and I wanted to keep the mysteries going. As soon as a
14:37question got answered, I wanted another question posed. Um, so I was thinking a lot about kind of
14:42the narrative structure, structure of it. And thematically I, or at least emotionally, I don't
14:48know, theme doesn't really reach the level of what I'm talking about, but emotionally I knew I was on
14:53solid ground because it was about my son. And it was a, it was an emotional touch point for me
14:59that I could, I could very much check in with at any point in the process. You know, it's really
15:06about a parent coming to terms with the reality that we don't control, um, or have no effect on
15:12the safety of our children ultimately. Um, and so I felt really good about that. And when that film
15:22reached its emotional climax, which is really what I pay more attention to than plot climaxes,
15:28um, I felt very satisfied in the cut of that movie. And then, um, first the script and then the cut of
15:34the film, I realized kind of half the fact, it's not so much about critics, I suppose, but it's
15:40really just kind of listening to people in the audience. Everybody else just wanted to know what
15:45the hell these shiny people were doing and, um, what this other dimension was. And I never really
15:50had much concern for it, to be honest. The point I'm making is that, uh, the, the miscalculation was
16:00the power of the power of the practical things happening in that film, um, not being aligned
16:05with the emotionality of it, um, for, for an audience and, uh, and as a storyteller that,
16:11you know, and that's, that's four films in, um, you know, pretty big learning lesson.
16:18I remember seeing Bike Riders in Telluride and what I enjoyed about it is you captured characters
16:30in an interesting moment in the world, but it was, that was the exploration was the characters,
16:38as opposed to a specific, um, A to, A to Z, uh, narrative arc. Tell me what burned in you
16:49to capture these people from Jodie Comer's character, he did such a great job, to Tom Hardy,
16:56to Austin Butler, to Michael Shannon, um, all of them were just, they were just riveting.
17:04That's how the characters were first introduced to me in Danny Lyon's book, you know, it's a book
17:08of photographs, but the texts in the book are just interviews. They read like monologues
17:12and, and they're great monologues because they're not about anything.
17:17They're, these people are just talking about anecdotal moments of their lives,
17:22um, little pieces of their behavior, little, little bits about how their minds work or how
17:27they've been treated or how they feel about the world, you know, but, but they're not trying to
17:31tell you a story. They're, they're really not, you know, it's not like, Hey, let me tell you
17:37about this bank robbery. It's like, um, they're really just trying to tell you about themselves,
17:43which is a remarkable thing to come across as a storyteller, you know, uh, because that's the
17:48stuff that matters. That's the stuff that really makes, makes character worthwhile.
17:52I remember going through the edit and, you know, inevitably you're trying to make the film tighter
17:57and, and, and play as, as, as well as it can in the studio saying, you know, what if we,
18:02if we just trimmed some of these side characters, some of their side thoughts and it's,
18:06I don't throw them under the bus here. Um, because it, it makes sense. There's a, there's a world
18:10where you make this movie and it's just Jody Austin and Tom's characters, you know, and you
18:15really stay with that kind of a storyline, but it doesn't give you the breadth of the, the community,
18:21you know, the breadth of this outsider group, um, you need all those little stories and all those
18:25anecdotes and some audience members will be up for it and some, some won't, but the hope is by
18:29the time you get to the end of it, you feel, you feel the full breadth of this outsider group.
18:34And this isn't one of those moments to your previous question where I'm, I'm recognizing
18:39a fault in the film. It's really what you're doing is recognizing what the hell it is you've done,
18:44you know, um, what, what you were really attracted to and, and what was important in this one and
18:49bringing out the breadth of these characters and these, these anecdotes about the way they
18:55see the world. That was really important.