Today much is made about wrestling wars, but how much do wrestling fans know about the “war for Atlanta?” It was very real and saw the biggest stars in wrestling being utilized by the NWA to protect what was seen as an assault on one of its major territories. Standing opposite the Alliance and Jim Barnett was Ann Gunkel, widow of promoter and wrestling star Ray Gunkel.
Join host Jim Cornette and Bill Eadie, The Masked Superstar, one of the Georgia territory’s huge stars and bookers, for a trip down Atlanta way. Go inside the Georgia wrestling operation before TBS, Black Saturday, and the Crocketts. Hear the stories surrounding the area’s colorful stars like Tommy Rich, T Bolt Patterson, Freebirds, Mr. Wrestling I and II, Ole Anderson, and so many more. Jump in, we’re heading to Hot-lanta!
Join host Jim Cornette and Bill Eadie, The Masked Superstar, one of the Georgia territory’s huge stars and bookers, for a trip down Atlanta way. Go inside the Georgia wrestling operation before TBS, Black Saturday, and the Crocketts. Hear the stories surrounding the area’s colorful stars like Tommy Rich, T Bolt Patterson, Freebirds, Mr. Wrestling I and II, Ole Anderson, and so many more. Jump in, we’re heading to Hot-lanta!
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00:00:00Professional wrestling was a staple of the
00:00:29Georgia sports fans diet from the early years of the 20th century, but it gained in popularity
00:00:34after pioneer pro wrestler Paul Jones established the ABC booking office in Atlanta in 1944.
00:00:41The advent of television in the Peach State in the early 1950s accelerated the sports
00:00:45growth, and national stars began headlining events alongside southern legends like Herb
00:00:50Welch, Buddy Fuller, and others.
00:00:52Fred Blassie had a long and successful run as the man in Georgia, the star you loved
00:00:57to hate.
00:00:58By the 1960s, Live Atlanta Wrestling, hosted by Ed Caprol, was a ratings hit broadcast
00:01:03from the studios of WAII-11 in Atlanta, and the program was syndicated to other markets
00:01:08in the state like Savannah and Augusta.
00:01:11Weekly live events at the historic Atlanta City Auditorium became an institution and
00:01:16sellouts were frequent.
00:01:18Additionally, Columbus, Georgia-based promoter Fred Ward, a minority shareholder in the ABC
00:01:24produced his own TV program for Columbus and Macon, and ran weekly events there and
00:01:28throughout south Georgia.
00:01:30Top wrestlers seeing action in Georgia in the 1960s included Haystacks Calhoun, Gorgeous
00:01:35George, Dick the Bruiser, Dr. Jerry Graham, Argentina Rocca, Eddie Graham, Sputnik Monroe,
00:01:42Mario Galento, Bob Warden Sr., Doug the Professional Gilbert, Buddy Colt, Bobby Shane, and a young
00:01:48babyface named Nick Bockwinkle.
00:01:51Tag team wrestling was incredibly popular in Georgia as well with teams like Grizzly
00:01:55Smith and Luke Brown the Kentuckians, or the Torres Brothers, Alberto, Enrique, and Raymond.
00:02:00Waging long wars with heel duos like the Von Brauners with manager Saul Weingroff, the
00:02:05Mast Infernos with J.C. Dykes, the original Anderson Brothers, Gene and Lars, and Georgia's
00:02:10all-time top heel team, Jody Hamilton and Tom Renesto, the Mast Assassins.
00:02:16The NWA World Heavyweight Championship was defended often in the state by every champion
00:02:20of the decade, including Luthez, Gene Kuniski, and Dory Funk Jr., but in a talent-filled
00:02:26territory one man stood head and shoulders above the rest, Ray Gunkel.
00:02:30Gunkel, a former amateur wrestling great, had debuted in Georgia as the 1950s closed
00:02:36and for the majority of the next dozen years he reigned as not only the most popular local
00:02:40babyface but eventually the booker and part-owner of the ABC booking office.
00:02:45Until tragedy struck on August 1st, 1972, Gunkel died of a heart attack in the locker
00:02:50room of the Savannah Civic Center following a match with Ox Baker.
00:02:54He was 48.
00:02:56A meeting was held of the ABC owners including Jones, Ward, southern wrestling legend Lester
00:03:01Welch and Gunkel's widow Anne, a former fashion model.
00:03:05The others offered Anne Gunkel what they wanted to pay her to buy out Ray's shares and she
00:03:09refused it.
00:03:10So they folded the existing company and opened a new one without her.
00:03:14But Anne Gunkel wasn't done.
00:03:16She appealed to the owner of WTCG 17, the small Atlanta independent station now carrying
00:03:21the wrestling program, an Atlanta entrepreneur named Ted Turner.
00:03:26He gave her fledgling promotion, All South Wrestling, an hour of time adjacent to the
00:03:31new Georgia championship wrestling program, creating a two-hour block.
00:03:35Then, in one fell swoop, she convinced every wrestler on the Georgia roster save two, Bob
00:03:41Armstrong and Darryl Cochran, to join her new company.
00:03:44The National Wrestling Alliance was horrified at this unprecedented raid on one of their
00:03:48member territories.
00:03:50Beginning the following Friday night, November 24th, 1972, NWA promoters began sending their
00:03:55top talent to Atlanta every weekend to fight the war.
00:03:59From Florida came Jack Briscoe, Hiro Matsuda, the NWA champion Dory Funk Jr. and Eddie Graham
00:04:05himself.
00:04:06From Tennessee came Lester Welch's family members, Buddy, Ron and Robert Fuller and
00:04:10Roy Lee Welch.
00:04:11From Detroit came Bobo Brazil and later The Sheik himself.
00:04:15Florida announcer Gordon Soley became the new host of the TV show.
00:04:20Graham installed his protege Bill Watts as booker and arranged for the return of Georgia
00:04:24favorite Mr. Wrestling, Tim Woods.
00:04:26Johnny Rubberman Walker returned as the masked Mr. Wrestling II.
00:04:30But even in the face of all that star power, All South Wrestling, with all the local favorites,
00:04:35persevered finally.
00:04:37The NWA convinced Jim Barnett, one of the most powerful behind the scenes forces in
00:04:41the sports history, to return to the states from Australia, where he had spent the previous
00:04:46decade running the biggest promotion in the world, a company he called WCW, World Championship
00:04:51Wrestling.
00:04:52Barnett used his political connections, powers of persuasion and ruthless business practices
00:04:57to finally end the war in the NWA's favor.
00:05:00Georgia Championship Wrestling was once again the only game in town, with weekly events
00:05:05at the City Auditorium and regular major cards held at the new Atlanta Omni, the largest,
00:05:10most modern arena in the South.
00:05:12The two hour Saturday evening block on WTCG remained as the station was just a few years
00:05:17away from being beamed by satellite to every cable system in the country and being renamed
00:05:22WTBS, the Turner Broadcasting System.
00:05:26And caused the Atlanta fans to grow accustomed to the biggest stars in the sport appearing
00:05:30on their weekly events live and in person.
00:05:33Wrestling in the peach state of Georgia was at an all time high.
00:05:37Hello again everybody and welcome to another exciting episode of Back to the Territories
00:05:52from kayfabe commentaries.
00:05:53I'm Jim Cornette and once again we're hopping in the DeLorean and we're taking a trip back
00:05:58in time.
00:05:59And the trip we're taking today is to a place that I know well and so does our guest, Georgia
00:06:03Championship Wrestling.
00:06:04And with me, he's been a Mongolian, he's been a demolition expert, but for the purposes
00:06:09of this exercise, the Mass Superstar Bill Eadie.
00:06:11Bill thank you very much for being here.
00:06:12Good to see you my friend.
00:06:14And we were talking before we just went on the air, you actually had two runs in Georgia
00:06:19for the two different promotions that we have talked about in the history piece.
00:06:23You were one of the Mongols for All South and then later the Mass Superstar in Georgia
00:06:27Championship Wrestling.
00:06:29What was it like actually being there as part of the most famous wrestling war in modern
00:06:35wrestling history?
00:06:36Well you know, I was in the middle of it and I didn't know I was in a war.
00:06:41It was funny because I was just a green guy beating up people, hurting people I'm sure.
00:06:47And I was tagged with a crafty old veteran, Gedo Mongol.
00:06:51And we were going down to Georgia, that sounds like a song doesn't it?
00:06:55Yeah, you devil.
00:06:56We were going down to Georgia weekly and I thought it was great.
00:07:01We'd fly down, we'd catch a flight from Pittsburgh.
00:07:03I was living in Ohio at the time and Gedo was a former promoter of Pittsburgh.
00:07:08So we'd go down every week and they ran, the group that we ran with was Goncol's group
00:07:13and we'd do Tuesday nights.
00:07:16Then we'd fly back on Wednesday morning.
00:07:18And I was making those trips for about two years not knowing eventually I'd end up living
00:07:25and working and making my living right out of Georgia.
00:07:28And you're home for 30 years right?
00:07:30I'm home, I still live in Atlanta.
00:07:32But it was exciting because it was new to me and going all over those names just brought
00:07:40back so many memories and events that took place and how exciting it was because at that
00:07:48time you had two promotions running a major city, Atlanta, every Tuesday and every Friday
00:07:57and selling out.
00:07:58And everybody around the country that was in wrestling, all the top guys and all the
00:08:04underneath guys all wanted to go there.
00:08:08Explain the TV situation because this is what was really interesting to me when we were
00:08:12talking earlier in that Channel 17 was broadcasting both shows.
00:08:17It became the modern two hour Saturday night six o'clock wrestling block but at the time
00:08:21it was two separate programs and they were taped at the same, one right after another
00:08:26on the same day in the same location.
00:08:28Same studio, Saturday mornings, our group would tape first so Ann Goncol's crew members
00:08:34would set up the ring and then Barnett's would do the hour and the ring would still stay
00:08:40up.
00:08:41Turner was producing both shows and Barnett's group would have their hour and they'd tear
00:08:46the ring down.
00:08:47And we're going through the studio and going through the dressing room saying, hey how
00:08:52you doing?
00:08:53I'm meeting new faces there, saying old stories to old guys.
00:08:58It was goofy but fun.
00:09:00Was there heat?
00:09:01Because I know, for example, when Jerry Jarrett's group in Memphis was in a war with the Pafos
00:09:07ICW, there was heat.
00:09:09There was outside the ring confrontations, people were pulling guns, carrying weapons.
00:09:13Was there heat amongst the crews or was it all confined to the offices?
00:09:17I think there was a little bit of heat between certain individuals who thought that they
00:09:22were supposed to be the top stars of the whole world but they were the top stars of one company
00:09:30and then we had top stars at our company who thought they were top stars of the whole world
00:09:36but the boys were the boys.
00:09:38I guess there was heat between the promoters but I only heard of Barnett and I hadn't met
00:09:46Watts at that time.
00:09:47I knew Gunkel, I knew she was giving me my money and my pay and she was very nice to
00:09:53me so I guess I was an outlaw but I didn't know I was an outlaw.
00:10:01And it was such an odd situation because normally any outlaw promotion in a war is going to
00:10:07bring in outside talent that had not been there but so many of the guys that were household
00:10:15names in Georgia went with her because of the respect they had for Ray Gunkel and conversely
00:10:20possibly the heat the rest of the office had with a lot of the guys.
00:10:25So you had come in from outside but she had a lot of Georgia based wrestlers there and
00:10:30the established promotion was the one that was bringing guys in from all over the country
00:10:33to try to fight it so it was almost like a mirror image of a regular wrestling war.
00:10:38At that point we heard all this information and all these guys and of course like I said
00:10:44I was young and I was just listening to Guido but Guido knew all these guys but you're right
00:10:50they were bringing in so many new faces that they looked like the outlaw group trying to
00:10:54invade Georgia and I think that Gunkel and his wife had established good relationships
00:11:02with people in the past and you know that's hard to do in wrestling business and I guess
00:11:10they returned the favor because they respected her husband.
00:11:15What if you were privy to it or if you knew at the time what was it Barnett was the difference
00:11:21maker what led because they were both selling out for so long and business was strong but
00:11:27then finally the NWA office got the upper hand was it Barnett and his manipulations
00:11:33was it just they couldn't keep a steady stream of talent going against this onslaught of
00:11:38stars from all over the country what was the tipping point?
00:11:41Well I really can't tell you the tipping point I knew that the crowd started declining somewhat
00:11:48and I think like in all tipping points the tipping point was money.
00:11:56Barnett had a lot more money or had access to a lot more money and could make better
00:12:02payoffs and like Ted DiBiase said everybody has their price and I know a lot of people
00:12:09were transitioning and we were making a move at that time to go with IWA Eddie Einhorn.
00:12:16You were just an outlaw all over the place.
00:12:20I didn't know it I mean Guido I guess was the one of the ringleaders of the outlaw conspiracy
00:12:25group and I was just following him but I got a good experience out of it.
00:12:29He was a friend by the way of my old friend Brian Hildebrand Mark Curtis the referee and
00:12:33he always spoke so highly of Guido and trained with him in Pittsburgh there for a while and
00:12:37when you say you were going to the IWA the IWA at one point in the mid 70's was running
00:12:43a variety of locations was that the IWA Carolinas, the IWA the Northeast, was that that big Roosevelt
00:12:50stadium?
00:12:52We were the original national IWA and then of course TBS did the same thing took off
00:13:00and then Vince later on did the same thing took off.
00:13:03At the time Eddie Einhorn was bankrolling the IWA.
00:13:07Yes it was the old it became ESPN but I forget what they had called it at the time.
00:13:16But he had been revolutionary also in college sports in syndicating college sports before
00:13:20that was a big thing and there was no network coverage of college ball.
00:13:24And he had some good ideas I mean he wasn't just for making money himself he was going
00:13:30to designate certain guys to work certain territories and your area would be Louisville
00:13:38and that area you'd run and he'd give you three or four shows a year out of there and
00:13:42mine would have been maybe the Columbus Ohio area and Guido's was Pittsburgh.
00:13:47Anybody that took the step with him took that gamble he was going to reward you and
00:13:53he was going to set up a retirement program unheard of right?
00:13:57That sounds way too logical way too logical and of course history has shown Vince and
00:14:03the Northeast shut him out of a lot of the buildings.
00:14:07The promoters had that power back in those days and they tried to go down to the Carolinas
00:14:11which was a wrestling hotbed but Crockett was so entrenched there.
00:14:16We did well in certain areas Winston-Salem was the headquarters but you know you can't
00:14:21fight City Hall some places.
00:14:24Especially in North Carolina it's not done.
00:14:27So what happened when you transitioned from being one of the Mongols to the mass superstar?
00:14:33It happened I know in the Carolinas but how did it come about?
00:14:36How did you get the shot to go in?
00:14:39How did George Scott present the booker there at the time present the superstar gimmick
00:14:43to you?
00:14:45Guido and I had left the IWA and George had invited us to come in and work for the Carolinas
00:14:54Mid-Atlantic and we did a series of programs with some different guys and ended up with
00:15:01the culmination being Mongols against the Andersons and we did that for about six months.
00:15:08In the interim period Guido was actually wanting to go home and George Scott at Approachmen
00:15:16he says I got an idea and I need to get an answer from you and I think he was having
00:15:22some trouble with Jardim.
00:15:25I don't know what it was about.
00:15:26The spoiler?
00:15:27The spoiler.
00:15:28Who was there and one of their top players at the time.
00:15:35I never delved into it.
00:15:36It wasn't any of my business but I assume it was over money.
00:15:40It always is.
00:15:42So Jardim left and George Scott approached me with the idea of going under a mask.
00:15:48Well I owed loyalty to Guido and I said Guido George has asked me to do this.
00:15:53He said go ahead and do it.
00:15:54I'm going to go home anyway.
00:15:55He said I've been trying to figure out a way to tell you.
00:15:59He says we're going to have a series of matches with the Andersons.
00:16:03Right after that you can become a masked superstar.
00:16:06So I talked to my wife about it, my wife's grandmother, made all my masks, made my capes,
00:16:15my outfits.
00:16:16I ordered boots and Boris Malenko, he was in the territory at the time and he wasn't
00:16:23my manager at the time but he was going to be.
00:16:26So he and I went to Park Center in Charlotte every Monday.
00:16:31They had matches in the evening, we'd go down there in the morning and we'd just practice
00:16:35holds and counters.
00:16:38I taught school before so I wasn't worried about my interviews and Guido had given me
00:16:44a good foundation.
00:16:45When I first broke into the business he taught me all the baby face moves.
00:16:49When I became one of the Mongols I became a specialist, eyes, ears, nose and throat.
00:16:53So I didn't have to do anything.
00:16:56So all I had to do was go over these moves.
00:16:58In about six weeks he said, I think we're ready.
00:17:03We had a lose or leave town match, Bolo Mongol against Wahoo McDaniel in the Greensboro Coliseum.
00:17:10He beat me and the stipulation was I would take his feathers, he would leave town or
00:17:16he would cut my ponytail and I would leave town.
00:17:19I lost, got my ponytail cut.
00:17:21On Sunday, Monday I've got a new vehicle that I bought four or five weeks before that.
00:17:26Because the fans couldn't see you driving the same car.
00:17:28Never drove it.
00:17:29I had a Ford before and I bought a new Dodge van.
00:17:36So I drove the Ford to Greensboro and the next day my wife driving the Ford around and
00:17:41I drove a Dodge van with a mask to Greenville, South Carolina.
00:17:47Monday night.
00:17:48Monday night.
00:17:49And I wrestled as the masked superstar.
00:17:52I was looking at the records of the Georgia territory and the Carolinas are adjacent.
00:17:57They butt up against each other.
00:17:59But during the war from 72 to 74, all the NWA talent was coming in but not that much
00:18:05from the Carolinas and possibly it was because they were gearing up to fight their own opposition
00:18:12with the IWA up there.
00:18:13But then towards 75 and 76, once that Barnett had taken control, Ann Gunkel was out, he
00:18:21was the only game in town, then guys started coming down from Charlotte.
00:18:26It took you, it took the superstar a little while, but I want to get just the names.
00:18:32This is an example of an Omni card.
00:18:34May 23rd, 1975, NWA Championship, Jack Briscoe vs. Dory Funk Jr., Andre the Giant and Mr.
00:18:40Wrestling 2 against Abdulla the Butcher and The Sheik, Mr. Wrestling, Tim Woods against
00:18:45Harley Race, Jerry Lawler against Jerry Briscoe and three more matches.
00:18:49That was the cream of the crop at the time.
00:18:51And those three more matches would have been the main event guys.
00:18:55You know, that was the cream of the crop of the NWA at that time and 1975 was the year
00:19:00that Dusty Rhodes made his debut.
00:19:03Eddie Graham always took an interest in Georgia business, had sent Gordon Soley up, had really
00:19:08been a help.
00:19:10Was it still due to the influence, I know it's money also and the Omni was a huge building,
00:19:15but the influence that Jim Barnett had not only with talent, but more importantly with
00:19:19promoters across the country.
00:19:22He had been in the business at that time for 25 years.
00:19:24He knew everybody.
00:19:25Yeah, I think he had developed a good relationship with all those guys and they respected Jim.
00:19:31I respected Jim.
00:19:32I mean, we had conversations a number of times and there was a guy that if you pinned him
00:19:41down and he gave you his word, his word was gold.
00:19:44There are very few people that have done that.
00:19:46You had to get it, right?
00:19:47You had to get the word.
00:19:48Yes, exactly.
00:19:49I mean, there's very few people that would, things were done on a verbal agreement or
00:19:57a handshake and he was one of them.
00:19:59Enoki was another.
00:20:01Vince McMahon Sr. was another one.
00:20:05You know, and you learn that, well these guys have some scruples, a lot of people say this
00:20:11or that or this or that, but you only have to deal with how they handle with you because
00:20:16everybody's got a story.
00:20:18Barnett was such a character.
00:20:20Tell some locker room stories about, he loved to have meetings with the guys.
00:20:24Oh my goodness.
00:20:25My boys, any news, any scoops, any dirt?
00:20:28Well, he was upset with me one time because I think we got along real well and he would
00:20:37call my wife when I was overseas and have a conversation with her, just chit chat.
00:20:44And I had made an arrangement to go back, you know, George Scott had been asking.
00:20:47I was only supposed to go to Georgia for about a six week period and ended up there for about
00:20:52a year and a half and loved it and George would keep calling me, Bill, you got to, well,
00:20:59you know, we're in the middle of this, we're in the middle of that.
00:21:02So it stretched it out to about two years, but then I finally, because George gave me
00:21:05my break.
00:21:07So I told him, I said, okay, I'll, I'll start and I'll talk to Jim.
00:21:10So it was one of the meetings and I told him that he was talking about this and that and
00:21:15this and that.
00:21:16We're going, I said, Jim, he says, anybody have any questions or any answer?
00:21:18I said, Jim, I hate to do this, but I just wanted to make sure that you knew I wasn't
00:21:24going to be here about during when we're talking about what we're going to do.
00:21:29One, my boy, I don't, you don't give me your notice.
00:21:35I give you your, I give notices and he got over it, but I mean, it was just, he was just
00:21:40taken aback that he wasn't used to it and he did treat me good and I, I felt bad about
00:21:46it.
00:21:47And I told him, I said, it's only going to be for a short period of time.
00:21:50He says, well, you were only here, supposed to be here for a short period of time.
00:21:54Jerry Jarrett told me a story one time, he, when he was booking down there, he did a pretty
00:21:58good impersonation.
00:21:59A lot of people do.
00:22:00That's how I got my middle initial, by the way, James E. Cornett, because Jim Cornett
00:22:06and Jim Barnett were so similar.
00:22:08When I was first on the booking sheet in Georgia, they said, oh, Jimsy's on the card, you know,
00:22:12and that's it.
00:22:13But Jerry Jarrett's, Jim's not there one night.
00:22:16And so Jerry Jarrett goes in and he's doing Jim and he sits down on the, he says that
00:22:20distinctive walk and he sits down on the edge of the table.
00:22:23And now boys, Robert Fuller is going to give us our arena rap report.
00:22:29And Robert said, well, Sally's here tonight and that's going to make the boys awful happy.
00:22:34And so and so, and, and then, and somebody else would do it and whatever.
00:22:37And all of a sudden Jerry noticed the guy starting to walk away from him and he's still
00:22:41doing his bit and he thinks he's flopping, right?
00:22:43And he turns and there's Barnett standing by him.
00:22:46Very good, Jerry.
00:22:48I think he had a good sense of humor.
00:22:50I think that he, he was very instrumental in this business, you know, for the people
00:22:55to remember him and the boys remember him this long after his passing.
00:23:00It's a positive note.
00:23:02Well among the other things, he invented studio wrestling in Indianapolis when he owned one
00:23:08of the majority and manipulated at least one of the largest territories in the country
00:23:14in the fifties, the big Midwest, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, Kentucky.
00:23:19He's the one who set Roy Shire up with the TV in San Francisco and allowed Roy, his
00:23:26booker from Indianapolis to take his top star Ray Stevens and go out to San Francisco and
00:23:30made it the biggest drawn city in the country.
00:23:33He had, he had such political connections.
00:23:36He was on the National Council of the Arts.
00:23:38He could get President Carter on the phone in Georgia when he wanted to.
00:23:43So you know, he had just that ability to make connections and had political pull that he
00:23:48could get things done.
00:23:49He could get people TVs or he could get sponsors.
00:23:52That's how he ended up with the airline in Australia was sponsoring World Championship
00:23:56Wrestling and they paid better than any promotion in the world at that time.
00:24:00And had a lot of top guys in and out of there for years and years.
00:24:04One of the big drawbacks is when he tried to do the same thing in Japan and he ran up
00:24:08against the wrong guys.
00:24:09Yeah, well, Japan was a little more closed society, but you mentioned the Anderson brothers.
00:24:14You worked with the Andersons in the Carolinas.
00:24:16The new Anderson brothers, not Lars and Gene, but Oli and Gene were working the Carolinas
00:24:21and started in Georgia by about 76.
00:24:25And so the guys had to be come back to the Carolinas saying, hey, this, the Omni is beautiful
00:24:30and this short trip territory was, was your interest peaked?
00:24:35Well you know, like I said, George Scott gave me my chance.
00:24:40I was, I can often tell the story.
00:24:44I was young, green, didn't know much about the business, knew I was hurting some people,
00:24:51but I was told to just be as aggressive as possible.
00:24:55But I was smart enough to realize that George Scott, who was the booker, gave me the character,
00:25:01liked the character.
00:25:03He was going to push the character and I was going to make some money.
00:25:07So I could have stayed in the Carolinas forever.
00:25:13I loved it until I got to Georgia and you know, in the Carolinas, it was almost as bad
00:25:19as Oklahoma.
00:25:21Not quite as bad, but you know, you're going 300 miles, 300 miles, 250, 280, this.
00:25:27The double Charleston rib, when you had to go from Charleston, South Carolina to Charleston,
00:25:30West Virginia.
00:25:31I thought we had something bad because we had Charleston, Richmond, Savannah, Norfolk
00:25:39for about three or four weeks, Paul Jones and I.
00:25:41I'm thinking, Paul, do you know something that we did that we wasn't supposed to do?
00:25:46Who do we apologize to, right?
00:25:48But then I went to Atlanta and Monday night was Augusta, 140 miles.
00:25:55Tuesday, I believe, was Macon, 70 miles.
00:26:00Wednesday, Columbus, 100 miles.
00:26:03Thursday was Rome, 60 miles.
00:26:06Friday was downtown.
00:26:08Saturday was a rough day.
00:26:09It was TV in the morning, rush to get in the car, speed to get to Columbus to do TV, and
00:26:15then a spot show that night, but it was always home.
00:26:18And Sunday was Marietta, 12 miles.
00:26:22And after a while, like I was telling somebody at an interview a couple weeks ago, I was
00:26:28home five to six nights a week watching the 11 o'clock news.
00:26:36That never happened.
00:26:37Well, Georgia, living in Atlanta, you were centrally located and the towns weren't that
00:26:43far away.
00:26:44And Chattanooga, maybe it was two hours.
00:26:46100 miles.
00:26:47You know, at that point, when Nick Goulas had folded up and Jerry Jarrett didn't take
00:26:51it over, so they folded that into the Georgia territory, but everything was two hours or
00:26:56less each way and you could literally, you didn't have to be in a hotel unless you wanted
00:27:00to be.
00:27:01Yeah.
00:27:02Well, the furthest town when I first moved there was Savannah.
00:27:06That was 250 miles.
00:27:08Well, fortunately or unfortunately, it didn't do very well.
00:27:12And the Carolinas took it over.
00:27:14Yeah, Crockett picked it up and then we had to go all the way down there, you know, if
00:27:17it wasn't bad enough, yeah.
00:27:19But you finally, you were in the Carolinas for that big run and finally made your Atlanta
00:27:24debut in 1978 and the roster, just once again, the names that year that were being pushed
00:27:30in Georgia, Baby Faces, Dusty Rhodes, Tommy Wildfire Rich, Tony Atlas, Mr. Wrestling
00:27:38II, Thunderbolt Patterson.
00:27:40On the heel side was Ole and Gene the Andersons, Stan Hansen, Abdullah the Butcher, Ivan Koloff,
00:27:47Ric Flair had just started.
00:27:49Both WWWF champion, Superstar Billy Graham and AWA champion, Nick Bockwinkle and Andre
00:27:55the Giant were coming in and out.
00:27:58It was a gathering point for all the top stars in the country and once again, the political
00:28:05manifestations and manipulations of getting Graham to defend his title or Nick to defend
00:28:09his title in an NWA city, Barnett had to be the only guy who could pull that off.
00:28:14Yeah, and you know, they had a show place.
00:28:16The Omni was the place to be.
00:28:21It was probably the gardens of the South.
00:28:26You know, of course, Charlotte had some big buildings and Greensboro and Charlotte and
00:28:32stuff like that, but Atlanta was the place to be in the South.
00:28:37Of course, you had New Orleans and some other places, but you know, anybody that was anybody
00:28:44at that time, and that was the beginning of guys coming from New York into Atlanta.
00:28:51It didn't last very long because it was a different style of wrestling and you know
00:28:56that being in the Southern business all your career.
00:29:01It's a different style.
00:29:02It's a harder, faster pace.
00:29:07Some territories you can slow down and do less and be accepted.
00:29:11Not down South, man.
00:29:12You had to move.
00:29:13Well, a guy like Ivan Koloff, who was a beast anyway and always in shape, he could go.
00:29:19He could change his style.
00:29:20Billy Graham, maybe not so much because he relied so much on the promo and the show and
00:29:25the body and I remember when he came to Tennessee after his run up there had been over with
00:29:31and we had seen the magazines, this was before videotapes, we'd seen the magazines and the
00:29:34pictures and all the publicity and we loved Billy as a person, but it just didn't translate.
00:29:42Well, you know, one of the things that I think is a big factor, if you're in the South, you're
00:29:47in one town Monday, next Monday you're there.
00:29:51Yeah.
00:29:52The next Monday you're there.
00:29:53They're going to see you all the time.
00:29:54You're there 52 times a year.
00:29:56Well, in New York or some of the other territories, you might only be in New York five, six times
00:30:01a year.
00:30:02Three of those shows you might not be on it.
00:30:05You might be in Philly or you might be in Washington.
00:30:08So boy, in the South you had to be up every night because next week you're going to be
00:30:15there again.
00:30:16And there had to be something going on in the match because you were probably going
00:30:18to wrestle the same guy the next week.
00:30:22Programs in those days in the Southern Weekly Territories would go on 10, 12, 15 weeks,
00:30:27whatever the case, and you might get away from it, but you'd come back to it.
00:30:30So there always had to be something fresh, some new twist, some new stipulation.
00:30:34It wasn't that way in the Northeast because a monthly town at best and you weren't there
00:30:39every time as you said.
00:30:40Well, up North, you would, especially for the champion, maybe it was Bruno, heel, heel,
00:30:48loss.
00:30:49Boom, boom, boom.
00:30:52Maybe if you're really good, you got a fourth match.
00:30:55Pat Patterson got four.
00:30:56I think he's maybe the only one ever.
00:30:58But in the South, you might be going for five or six months, and you know this, and you
00:31:04have that last match, but it's really not settled because there's something that you're
00:31:07going to come back to.
00:31:09Maybe it's six months from now.
00:31:11You know, we haven't finished a business yet, and in the people's eyes, you really didn't
00:31:17because you didn't see the guy get one, two, three.
00:31:21Up there, it was different.
00:31:22Whether they brought in George Steele or whoever it was, he had his first match with his disqualification,
00:31:28whatever, double count out, and then boom, he lost.
00:31:31Same thing with everybody.
00:31:32Well, that's also the same reason that to me, the Northeast was all about the babyface
00:31:39champion turning back the heel, whereas in the South, it was mostly the heel champion
00:31:45with heat turning back, foiling the babyface because the people would pay to see the match
00:31:51however long it took until the babyface got even.
00:31:53Then he'd win the belt, and he'd keep it long enough so that you didn't lose faith in him,
00:31:58and then somebody else would screw it.
00:32:00And off you go to the races again.
00:32:02You mentioned the schedule earlier of Georgia.
00:32:05For example, a Friday night, you were either at the Omni or the City Auditorium.
00:32:09You get up the next morning, go over to Channel 17, tape the TV show.
00:32:12Early in the morning.
00:32:16What was it like?
00:32:17Explain to the people going into a TV, literally an operating TV station, where they did the
00:32:23news and whatever else, at like 9 o'clock, 10 o'clock on Saturday morning with this giant
00:32:27crew of wrestlers, setting up a ring, and here we go, and we have these matches.
00:32:31The looks you would get sometimes from some of the crew.
00:32:34They would try to set up a halfway dressing area, but you're in cubicles of somebody's
00:32:41working next to you.
00:32:43And then maybe there's five or six empty cubicles, and there's a 300-pound wrestler here, and
00:32:50there's a guy over here, and these poor people are trying to do their work, and there's no
00:32:55room for anybody.
00:32:56There's boots all over the place.
00:32:58Some guys don't wash their gear.
00:33:01You've seen those guys.
00:33:02It's been in the bag for a week in the back of the truck.
00:33:05That opens up, and everything flies out of it.
00:33:09And then, of course, the Bookers, they have a little conference room.
00:33:14And then you only have a small studio.
00:33:15I mean, it's not like you have a giant-sized studio.
00:33:18It was like 80 people, 100 people, cops.
00:33:21And it's the same studio that you see during the news and the sports and the weather, and
00:33:26they're all over in the corner, and they're shooting on this side.
00:33:30But it was accepted.
00:33:34It was accepted.
00:33:35When the Rock and Roll Express was on Atlanta TV, I noticed a lot of the female employees
00:33:38would have to be walking through that area because of something they forgot.
00:33:41Of course.
00:33:42Trying to find Robert Gibson in flagrante delecto.
00:33:45Yes, yeah.
00:33:46Then you immediately, you jump in a car and you bad-ass down to Columbus, because Fred
00:33:49Ward, I never got a chance to do, they were not doing that TV by the time I got there.
00:33:54What was doing the Columbus TV like?
00:33:55That was live TV.
00:33:56Yeah.
00:33:57That was live TV.
00:33:58And usually in the morning it was two hours of tape TV that showed, I think it was six
00:34:03to eight or something in the evening.
00:34:05But then you had to really scoot a hundred miles and all the police got used to the wrestlers
00:34:11coming down and they'd wait and they'd be like they're fishing on a corner, they'd hook
00:34:16you once in a while, and then they were paying tickets by cash.
00:34:22It's not like today.
00:34:23But then you'd scoot in there and you'd do an hour of live TV in a small studio again,
00:34:30not air conditioned.
00:34:31As soon as you finished that, you'd try to find a burger or something to eat to get back
00:34:36up north to make one of the two or three house shows.
00:34:40Because Fred Ward and his son-in-law, Ralph Reed Rooster, their towns were on Tuesday
00:34:46and Wednesday.
00:34:47Yes.
00:34:48Occasionally they'd have a spot show on a weekend, but more often you were going down
00:34:50there to do the TV and then going back up to the north part of the state.
00:34:53Sometimes you'd be going back down Sunday because if they had a real hot angle, their
00:34:58live show was Tuesday, or excuse me, Wednesday in Columbus.
00:35:04Then you'd go down and do the TV and then make the spot show back up.
00:35:07But Sunday afternoon was a big blow off show, so you're back down in Columbus again.
00:35:13But I'm telling you, the trips weren't long, but it was frequent.
00:35:17You're passing yourself on the highway.
00:35:19So then the next day, you said Marietta on Sundays, the Cobb Civic Center, which was
00:35:25right there in town.
00:35:27That was an office town.
00:35:28Was there a local promoter for Marietta in those days, or was it really just an office
00:35:32town?
00:35:33I think the promoter was one of the ... It was an office town.
00:35:37The guy that took charge was either Ole at the time, or Bobby Simmons, or one of the
00:35:45trustees.
00:35:46Maybe Charlie McGowan.
00:35:47Yeah, Charlie McGowan.
00:35:48One of the referees also.
00:35:49Charlie Smith.
00:35:50Charlie Smith.
00:35:51And everybody used to look forward to Sunday, because you knew you were going to be in Marietta,
00:35:57and it's like the ... It's a slow down period.
00:36:01Although it isn't, but it's only 12 miles back.
00:36:03Well, you'd be back home at 10.30, and then you'd leave for Augusta.
00:36:07Back in those days, Atlanta traffic was not anything like it is now.
00:36:11So Augusta was 140 miles, and it would take you two and a half hours.
00:36:15So you go Augusta on Monday, the Bell Auditorium.
00:36:18That was another town that ran the traditional Atlanta tape, but they syndicated it to the
00:36:24local station there.
00:36:25Fred and Ralph didn't have anything to do with that.
00:36:28Was there a local promoter in Augusta in those days?
00:36:32I'm sure there was, but I don't remember the name.
00:36:36Then Tuesday and Wednesday, as we mentioned, back over to Macon and Columbus.
00:36:41Talk a little bit about Frank Morrell, the angel.
00:36:45One of the things he used to say when he'd get in the locker room, he'd get down there
00:36:47and Fred would come in, like he went to survey all of his troops, and as soon as Ward would
00:36:53walk out of the locker room, Frank would say, Fat Freddy, we're ready.
00:36:58I guess Fred was a former wrestler in like, what, the 40s himself.
00:37:01He had that demeanor and that appearance.
00:37:04I think so, yeah.
00:37:06The only thing I can remember about Fred, I was around Ralph a lot more, and Ralph was
00:37:14sort of the front man and protector of Fred, but there was a standing joke that when Fred
00:37:21would shake your hand, the better the house was, the more his hand would tilt.
00:37:28You knew that it was going to be a so-so house, a pretty good house, or it was really going
00:37:33to be a good house.
00:37:36And Ralph was one son-in-law, and then Fred's daughter Rose married Leon Ogle.
00:37:40Yeah, I didn't know him very much.
00:37:42He had wrestled years before that in Georgia, so they had a piece of the ABC booking office,
00:37:48and Rooster, Ralph, was not sometimes the most popular guy with all the guys.
00:37:54He tended to rub some people the wrong way.
00:37:55From what I remember being told, I was just happy to be there at the point I met all these
00:37:59people.
00:38:00Me too.
00:38:01I never had a problem with Ralph.
00:38:04You know, and there again, you don't know what transpires between guys, and I try to,
00:38:12if I'm treated okay, and I witness him treating most people okay, then that's fine.
00:38:18If he's shitting on a lot of people, then he's shitting on me eventually too.
00:38:25Were you there when Austin Idol cashed the battle royals?
00:38:28Oh, yeah.
00:38:29Please tell it firsthand.
00:38:30Oh my God.
00:38:31We used to do battle royals, too many battle royals, and they used to give you a legitimate
00:38:40check.
00:38:41That was the gimmick.
00:38:45If you won a $1,500 battle royal, or a $5,000 battle royal, or a $10,000 battle royal, it
00:38:52was a real check.
00:38:54You could cash it.
00:38:56I used to get upset with Bobby Heenan, who was my manager at the time, and I used to
00:38:59get upset because, you know, they're not going to give everybody an opportunity.
00:39:04They're trying to push guys that need a little bit of push.
00:39:07They thought the loophole was if they made it out to battle royal winner.
00:39:10Okay.
00:39:11Well, yeah.
00:39:12It's okay.
00:39:13So I used to kid Bobby.
00:39:14I said, Bobby, don't enter me into any more battle royals.
00:39:17The damn entrance fee is $150, and I'm doing 10 of them, and you can only win $1,000.
00:39:23It's bad economics here.
00:39:26But Austin won the battle royal.
00:39:28He wasn't the only one that cashed a check.
00:39:31A different idea.
00:39:32And I believe he went to the bank, and did he get a fence put in or something?
00:39:37Yeah.
00:39:38Well, that was the way he gave his notice to the territory, from what I heard, for what
00:39:40thing was cashing that check.
00:39:41But apparently because everybody in town went to the matches, the way I heard it was since
00:39:45it was made out to battle royal winner, he found somebody in the bank that had been at
00:39:49the matches.
00:39:50Oh, yeah.
00:39:51Oh, yeah.
00:39:52He won the battle royal.
00:39:53Okay.
00:39:54And they gave him the $5,000, whatever it was.
00:39:55Thunderbolt Patterson one time won a Cadillac tournament.
00:39:59They brought the Cadillac down in, put it in the Omni, put it on that revolving thing.
00:40:03It was a nice, shiny copper Cadillac.
00:40:06The winner of tonight's tournament is going to win the Cadillac.
00:40:11Thunderbolt Patterson won the Cadillac.
00:40:13He didn't make a couple of payments.
00:40:15They called the office.
00:40:16They said, he doesn't make any payments on this Cadillac.
00:40:20Thunderbolt went to the office and says, hey, I won the Cadillac.
00:40:24The office had to end up paying for it to lose face.
00:40:27Yeah.
00:40:29Columbus was the town also that Tim Woods got his finger bitten off.
00:40:33Yeah.
00:40:34I wasn't there, but I know that happened in that town and he continued to wrestle, right?
00:40:39Yeah.
00:40:40Well, he was doing it.
00:40:41They didn't do the challenge, the fan challenge anymore because Tim was a shooter, amateur
00:40:46wrestler and they would do the deal where to make the business more legitimate.
00:40:52Here's a Mr. Wrestling has this open challenge.
00:40:54If you can go five minutes or 10 minutes, whatever, you know, we'll give you X amount
00:40:57of dollars.
00:40:58And one night, because Columbus is, what's the, the army base over at Fort Benning?
00:41:03Fort Bragg, I think.
00:41:04Fort Benning.
00:41:05That's North Carolina.
00:41:06Fort Benning.
00:41:07Yeah.
00:41:08It's where they got the Rangers.
00:41:09Yeah.
00:41:10Yeah.
00:41:11You're one of those guys and a bunch of his buddies were there and I'm sure alcohol was
00:41:14involved.
00:41:15And the guy couldn't do anything with Woods as a wrestler.
00:41:20So when Tim tried to cross face him, he had his finger there and the guy just bit this
00:41:24finger off the second knuckle and needless to say, made Tim a little pissed.
00:41:28I think I even heard that he whipped the mask off so that he would, because it was going
00:41:32south and beat the shit out of the guy, but he still didn't have no fingers.
00:41:37So I could never understand Tim's dealings with the mask because sometimes in one town
00:41:47he would wear the mask and he would be wrestling number one.
00:41:51And then the next night it would be Tim Woods.
00:41:55Yeah.
00:41:56And then the next night he'd be back as wrestling number one under a mask.
00:41:59So I don't know if Tim really knew who he was.
00:42:02Well, and they did the deal one time when he, much earlier, I guess late sixties, maybe
00:42:06early seventies, where he got the NWA world championship match.
00:42:11But before the match, you know, since they, if he won, they needed to know who the champion
00:42:16was, the NWA.
00:42:17So they made him take the mask off and that's when he revealed himself.
00:42:20So then I think they were going to take it off of him and maybe keep it off.
00:42:24But the people were so enamored of Mr. Wrestling in the white mask, like American version of
00:42:29El Santo.
00:42:30They said, okay, we know who he is, but we don't care.
00:42:33So he did Mr. Wrestling, Tim Woods.
00:42:34Yeah.
00:42:35That baffled me because that was happening when I was first going down there.
00:42:39It was a little strange.
00:42:42When you first went into Georgia, we talked, well, and let's finish up the week.
00:42:46Thursday, as you said, was Rome, which is the hometown of Marty Lundy, a.k.a.
00:42:50Arn Anderson, Pee Wee Anderson, the referee, Tony Zane, a lot of guys came from Rome.
00:42:56And then Friday night, you were back in Atlanta.
00:43:00Who was booking at that point that you started?
00:43:02Was it Ole by then?
00:43:04When I first went down to stay, yes, Ole was a booker.
00:43:07Ole had asked me, he was coming back and forth into the Carolinas and been dabbling
00:43:15with promoting and booking there, as well as booking in Georgia.
00:43:20And he asked me to come down and he said, it's only going to be a short time.
00:43:23Of course, I didn't know, but when I got down there, I really liked it.
00:43:28Explain to people now who, everybody reads the internet, knows, okay, well, there's a
00:43:34writer for the promos and there's an agent to lay out the matches and there's a creative
00:43:38team to write the direction and everything.
00:43:41Explain the relationship between the booker and the talent at that point and how everybody
00:43:47worked together to manipulate the outcome.
00:43:49But you worked with your opponent and the booker got your suggestions.
00:43:53What have you done in other territories?
00:43:55Who do you like to work with?
00:43:56What worked for you and how it was put together?
00:44:01I recently had a conversation with a friend of mine that we were talking about, what you
00:44:07just mentioned, writers and this and that.
00:44:10And it took me back to when I first went into Japan as a mass superstar.
00:44:18Vince McMahon Sr. was there and, of course, Andre and I were good friends and back and
00:44:23forth and opponents and tag partners and opponents and all these tours.
00:44:31And we used to go on a tour, a tag tournament, Madison Square Garden, and then a Madison
00:44:36Square Garden singles.
00:44:37Well, every one of these events, Sr. would come.
00:44:42And he took a lichen to me and he says, boy, I want you to come into New York.
00:44:49I said, well, I'd love to.
00:44:50He says, Andre talks highly about it and I've heard about it.
00:44:53And he says, but I want you to come in as a cowboy.
00:44:58I said, a cowboy?
00:45:00I said, why would you want me to come in as a cowboy?
00:45:02He says, I've got an idea.
00:45:04I said, sir, what did you like about seeing me wrestle?
00:45:11He says, well, the way you carry yourself and your movement and this and that.
00:45:15I said, I wouldn't have any of that as a cowboy because I'm not a cowboy.
00:45:19I am, and I've become a mask man.
00:45:22I know my character.
00:45:24But if I went in as a cowboy and I stepped out in the gardens, first thing I think, I
00:45:29look around, how many cowboys they got out here?
00:45:32I can't ride a horse.
00:45:34I can't put a saddle on.
00:45:36Somebody's going to see right through it.
00:45:37I'm going to be a phony.
00:45:39I am the masked superstar.
00:45:42I'm not a cowboy.
00:45:44If you wanted me to come in, and that's when they had that silly rule, you could wrestle
00:45:47all through the New York area, but you couldn't wrestle in the garden with a mask on.
00:45:52So you had to cut the face out.
00:45:56So I said, I appreciate it, and I'm honored, and I'm humbled, but I'm not coming in as
00:46:01a cowboy.
00:46:02I want to be a cowboy.
00:46:04But getting back to what you were saying, you have to know you can't be Jimmy Hart because
00:46:13you'd feel self-conscious.
00:46:14You probably do Jimmy Hart, and Jimmy might be able to do some of yours, or you can't
00:46:19be another manager because you're established.
00:46:22You feel comfortable with you.
00:46:25Everybody has to be their person.
00:46:28You have to live that person.
00:46:30You have to walk that person.
00:46:31You have to think like that person.
00:46:34Therefore you are that person.
00:46:36And it just flows.
00:46:39A writer who watches 25 different guys can't be 25 different people.
00:46:45He's going to screw up.
00:46:47The biggest drawback I saw is when they had Bobby Heenan.
00:46:53Bobby would fly off.
00:46:54You'd give him a subject, tell him where the town is, who the opponent is, boom, boom,
00:46:58boom.
00:46:59He'd take it and go, and he'd make a score a bullseye every time.
00:47:03Well then somebody told him, well, no, you've got to say this, you've got to say that.
00:47:07So he's too worried, and what's the product now?
00:47:10They're so worried about what they have to say, and worried about leaving a couple things
00:47:13out that they do.
00:47:16Or they don't have any conviction, because you can see them reciting the words, but looking
00:47:21inside themselves rather than boring a hole in the camera, looking at the opponent, etc.
00:47:25And when you sit down, you and wrestling too, which we'll get to in a minute, there was
00:47:29a huge program.
00:47:30You would sit down with Oli, and Oli would say, hey, what did you guys do in that match
00:47:34last week?
00:47:35You know, that popped the people, and had some way, we need to slip you over Bill some
00:47:40way, screw him a little bit so we can bring it back, and next week's stipulation is such
00:47:44and such.
00:47:45Well, first of all, you have to have confidence that you're not going to get screwed.
00:47:50And I had confidence in Oli.
00:47:51Oli had faith in me.
00:47:54I had confidence and faith in wrestling too.
00:47:57I think if anybody talks to him, he trusted me as well.
00:48:02I wasn't there to bury him.
00:48:04Just like when Barry and I went into matches, we weren't there to bury our opponents.
00:48:09We were there to make sure that we had the best match on the card.
00:48:13Hopefully we do.
00:48:14And you have to have that confidence in your ability.
00:48:19I also knew that if for some reason I think I'm getting shafted, I'll give them a two-week
00:48:26notice, and there's a hundred places I can go.
00:48:30I had a standing contract.
00:48:32All I had to do was pick up the phone, literally, and I could be in Japan tomorrow.
00:48:36So I felt confident in my ability, but I didn't use that as a weapon.
00:48:40I'd say, well, if you don't do this, I'm going to leave.
00:48:43That was in my back pocket.
00:48:44You got to have something.
00:48:45If it came to it, you'd say, okay, I'll do that.
00:48:48And a lot of times, Bill Watts, one of the first things I learned, he had a meeting with
00:48:53talent at TV one night, and he said, if you are a baby face or a heel, and you come to
00:48:58the matches without a way to win and still keep your opponent over, or without a way
00:49:03to lose and still not kill yourself, then you're like a carpenter that came without
00:49:07his toolbox.
00:49:08Why'd you show up?
00:49:10You had the opportunity when the booker would say, hey, you know, once again, we're going
00:49:14to do this and a little of that tonight, and we need to slip so-and-so over.
00:49:17What do you got?
00:49:18And you'd pitch things, and he'd tweak it a little bit.
00:49:21Okay, let's do that.
00:49:22That was the extent of the, there was no agent sitting down telling you how to have the match
00:49:25because you didn't know what the people were buying.
00:49:28And so you got out there.
00:49:29Yeah, the agent, exactly.
00:49:32You get guys in the back room, and they're going over 14 or 15 or sometimes 20 spots
00:49:39when you only need two or three, especially when you're back in Atlanta.
00:49:44The rest of it's going to happen in the ring.
00:49:46You don't need to.
00:49:47And it might not even come up.
00:49:50But they do it anyway, because they were told to do it.
00:49:53And they were told if they don't do it, I've got to write a report.
00:49:58The report.
00:49:59See?
00:50:00And the thing is, unfortunately now, you and I are in a different era.
00:50:09Generation.
00:50:10They've surrounded themselves with people who are afraid.
00:50:19No one would come in, I would never come in as a booker and say, Jimmy, this is what I
00:50:25want you to say.
00:50:26I might say, okay.
00:50:28Or how to say it.
00:50:29I'd say, Jimmy, the town is Chattanooga, your team's opponents are so-and-so, and let's
00:50:36go with it.
00:50:37And you're coming back in two weeks.
00:50:39Well, I'd say, what's the rules of the match, or what are we coming back with?
00:50:41And otherwise, that's all you need to know.
00:50:43Yeah, but for me to tell you, and then you're going out there, I'm going to be in Chattanooga
00:50:48next week, and you're not putting your heart in it, because you're trying to remember what
00:50:53they told you.
00:50:54But you're not afraid, because you said, if the worst thing can happen to you, you should
00:50:58get fired.
00:51:00That's all.
00:51:01Well, now the reason why everybody's scared is because they don't have anything in their
00:51:03back pocket, because the pants have been stripped off the business.
00:51:06But one of the things you did when you first came to Georgia was the Cobra Hole Challenge.
00:51:11A thousand dollars to anybody that could break the Cobra Hole.
00:51:14Well, one of the first things when I came to Georgia, I looked around, and there was
00:51:1615 masked guys there.
00:51:21And Oli had approached me, and he says, we've got too many damn masked guys in here.
00:51:24He says, your objective is going to come down, and you're going to eliminate, one by one,
00:51:30all the masked men in the territory, and expose them, and run them out of the territory, and
00:51:35it's going to come down to you and Wrestling No. 2, because he's a big baby face, and you
00:51:39guys are going to make money.
00:51:40I said, okay.
00:51:41There you go.
00:51:43That's what you work toward.
00:51:44Yeah.
00:51:45That's what you need to know.
00:51:46And he would do his promos.
00:51:48I see what you're doing, and eventually, it's going to come down to you and I, and my promos
00:51:52would be, one's gone, this guy's gone, your friend's gone, this guy's gone, and eventually,
00:51:57you're going to be gone.
00:51:58And I'm going to be standing here, and there's nothing you can do about it.
00:52:02And let me just read your mind, and every time that you started wrestling after those
00:52:07promos played, regardless of who you were in the ring with, the people would be chanting
00:52:112, 2, 2, 2, because you had the, you made the people call for the match, a la the way
00:52:17that Bill Watts did with, and Bill Dundee did with Midnight in Rock and Roll, you made
00:52:21the people call for the match before you gave them the match, and that way, they felt it
00:52:25was their idea, and they really wanted to see it.
00:52:27Yeah.
00:52:28And sometimes, I would be standing off stage, just behind the curtains, peeping out when
00:52:33he was in the ring.
00:52:34And then, of course, he'd be alerted by somebody, and then the cannon would pan over.
00:52:41And then eventually, he started doing the same thing.
00:52:44So it was projected, way down the road, there was still a lot of masked men in there.
00:52:48And we even brought in a couple of fake wrestling, too.
00:52:50Yeah, just to...
00:52:51You know, just to add salt to the wound.
00:52:53And eventually, it got to the point where, you know, we had the matches, and a lot of
00:52:59people made statements that they didn't like wrestling with 2, but I enjoyed it.
00:53:06I think he trusted me, I trusted him, I knew he was a professional, he was just there to
00:53:11make money and do the best he could do, and I was the same thing.
00:53:16He'd been in the business 30 years, and he was a pro, and he knew what to do, and I think
00:53:21the thing that held him back as Johnny Rubberman Walker was just, facially, 2 always looked
00:53:27old when he was young.
00:53:28Yeah.
00:53:29And he didn't have...
00:53:30He was kind of nondescript, but athletic, and he knew how to work.
00:53:34And when he put that mask on, then that gave him an aura of mystery, and it accentuated
00:53:40his strengths and eliminated his weaknesses.
00:53:42And he did a very serious, hardcore, babyface interview.
00:53:49I got some advice from not only Boris Malenko, but early in my career, Wahoo McDaniel, who
00:53:56was a big babyface at the time, said, be careful what you say, because the people are listening.
00:54:03If you're a babyface, you can't make outlandish statements and not back them up, you'll lose
00:54:08face.
00:54:09My heel can go a little bit overboard, but I often did in my interviews, I was deliberate,
00:54:16and I would try to put myself in a fan's position, and there again, I talked about this recently.
00:54:26It's silly for me to go out there and say, I'm going to go tonight in New Jersey, and
00:54:33Jim Cornette, I'm going to break every bone in your leg.
00:54:37Well, if I don't do it, I lose face.
00:54:40It's probably not logical I'm going to do that.
00:54:43But Jim, you and I are going to get in that ring, and at the end of the night, I guarantee
00:54:49you, you're going to be hurt.
00:54:52I'm still going to get the point across.
00:54:53But it's open-ended.
00:54:54Yeah.
00:54:55You could be hurt in some kind of way.
00:54:56And what hurt is to you might not be to him or her, oh my goodness, he's going to break
00:55:01my fingers, he's going to break my wrist, he's going to break my knee, he's going to
00:55:05twist my neck.
00:55:06So, it's open.
00:55:07Ed, too, had that fire under that mask, and he'd look at the camera, and when we did a
00:55:11program with him in Louisiana, there was a belt whipping involved, where the loser, you
00:55:17know, we'd whipped him with the belts, and then came back where the loser got five lashes
00:55:20each or whatever, and he looked at the camera, and he said, and Cornette, I'm going to get
00:55:23you too, and by the time I finish with you, you won't know whether to walk, talk, or crawl.
00:55:29And people got with it, so every time we'd be wrestling another team or on television
00:55:34with job guys, the people would be chanting, two, two, two, two.
00:55:38I can still see his head twitch.
00:55:42Bobby Eaton at first didn't know, he thought they were, boo, boo, boo, but he said, that's
00:55:45the way they boo down here?
00:55:47Two had the million dollar knee lift.
00:55:48Oh my goodness.
00:55:49And Bobby Eaton took such good bumps for it, right?
00:55:52That even two, the old pro that he was, he got himself caught up in the moment, he loved
00:55:57the bumps that Bobby would take.
00:55:58Because one time, he'd hit Bobby with a knee lift, and Bobby would fly over the top rope
00:56:02without touching anything, and next time he'd take some kind of corkscrew bump and land
00:56:06on his face in the ring, and next time he'd do something else.
00:56:08So two all of a sudden realized, after the first week or two of the program, he's hitting
00:56:13Bobby Eaton with his finish three or four times in a match, and we're still winning.
00:56:16And then you couldn't get him to hit anybody with a knee lift after that, but going back
00:56:20to the Cobra Hold.
00:56:21I got hit with a bunch of sticks.
00:56:24And it was good, it was there, right?
00:56:26They were there, and you had to be alert.
00:56:29That's where I was going with the Cobra Hold, just the idea that you got a hold, he got
00:56:33the knee lift over, because when he hit it, somebody went down, the million dollar knee
00:56:36lift.
00:56:37You got the Cobra Hold over because you paid people if they could even escape it.
00:56:41$10,000 bounty.
00:56:43And that's the way you got a hold over, it had to work consistently, first against an
00:56:48underneath guy, then against a middle card guy.
00:56:50Finally, when you got to the top guys, they would have hope, and you might have to just
00:56:54pull that little heel tactic.
00:56:56Or you would roll them over into the road.
00:56:59They never broke it, the referee would break it periodically.
00:57:02And if Andre the Giant, Andre said, I'm not breaking the hold.
00:57:07So if Andre can't get out of it, who's going to get out of it?
00:57:10Because there's only so many holds and moves you can do that don't just cripple somebody,
00:57:14so if you prostitute all of them.
00:57:16So for example, if you super kick somebody 75 times and don't win the match, and don't
00:57:22beat anybody with it, then it's...
00:57:23Or if you drop kick somebody, fly and drop kick somebody 25 times.
00:57:27Whatever the case may be.
00:57:30We've gone over the schedule, what was the money like at that point, late 70s in Georgia?
00:57:35It was good.
00:57:36Well, I bring it up because Oli...
00:57:37You don't work for the IRS, do you?
00:57:38I do not, and I have never, and I disavow any knowledge of same, and the statute of
00:57:42limitations by the way has run out, but I've mentioned many times, I'm just flabbergasted
00:57:47by this, we've talked about it on other episodes of this program.
00:57:51A guy like Oli, I use him as an example, but I was making, between working Main Event Carolinas
00:57:56and booking and having a piece of the office in Atlanta, I was making a quarter of a million
00:58:00dollars a year.
00:58:01Yeah.
00:58:02Jerry Lawler in Memphis.
00:58:03People wonder, why did Jerry Lawler never go anywhere else?
00:58:05Why would he?
00:58:06He was making a couple hundred grand a year, and home every night in Tennessee, and then
00:58:10became part owner of the promotion.
00:58:13The top guys, Vince McMahon Jr. did not create big money in wrestling, and especially when
00:58:19you adjust, as I think somebody in our peanut gallery has the app, when you adjust it to
00:58:24today's money, those $5,000 and $6,000 payoffs for an NWA world title match in St. Louis
00:58:30in 1982 would be $18,000 for one night's work in 2016.
00:58:38I made good money when I was in New York as Demolition, and I made good money when I was
00:58:43in Japan as Superstar, but the money that I made in Japan was based on the money that
00:58:49I had made in the Carolinas, and I had made in Georgia, because they're correlated.
00:58:56A lot of the boys go to Japan, and they say, well, the Japanese are dumb, they don't know
00:59:00what you're making, so they all ask for this astronomical.
00:59:03They contact Crockett's, they contact Portland, they contact Ole, what's so-and-so making?
00:59:09What's so-and-so making?
00:59:10Well, you go over there and you tell them, well, I'm making $5,000 a week.
00:59:13No you're not, you're making $500.
00:59:16So they give you maybe $750 or $1,000, and you say, okay, I'll give you a deal.
00:59:21But in my case, I literally, my first deal, of course I went with Kido.
00:59:31After that, I went over because I gave my word to Inoki.
00:59:36I lost money.
00:59:37I was losing $2,000 and $3,000 a week going to Japan.
00:59:42From Georgia.
00:59:44But I gave Inoki my word, and I told him, I said, you don't believe this.
00:59:50And I took my paychecks for six or eight weeks, and I said, here's what I'm making here, and
00:59:56here's what I'm making home.
00:59:57But I told you I was coming, and I gave you my word, but I don't think I'm gonna be able
01:00:02to come anymore.
01:00:03He says, oh, okay, appreciate that, thank you.
01:00:06Then all of a sudden, I get another call, and the money in Japan was over the money
01:00:11in Georgia.
01:00:13But it wouldn't have been if I didn't, wasn't honest with him.
01:00:15For example, because I know some of the payoffs we were making as a tag team manager combination
01:00:21in Charlotte a few years after this, but a single main event in the Omni, one of those
01:00:26big houses, was a couple of grand in those days, right?
01:00:29Oh, yeah, probably $3,000, $3,500.
01:00:33And you know, I remember at one point in your life.
01:00:36You know, you're, like you were saying, I don't know if the people understand it, that's
01:00:39like an $8,000 or $10,000 payoff now.
01:00:42Yeah, adjusted for all of the things they ingested.
01:00:45You know, I was getting, you were getting gas at 52 cents a gallon.
01:00:49Well, and that was a beautiful part also, in Atlanta, no hotels.
01:00:52No hotels.
01:00:53You put three or four guys in a car that have fun riding with each other, drinking beer,
01:00:57to go to the town that's 140 miles away, and you stop at McDonald's, and back then, you
01:01:01know, the biggest meal on the card was $2 or whatever.
01:01:04Everything was a dollar.
01:01:05Everything was a dollar.
01:01:06Yeah, and so you spent nothing, and you're, you know, you're getting these two, $3,000
01:01:11a week checks on an average week.
01:01:13As a main event guy.
01:01:14I remember underneath guys in Louisiana at one point, the opening match guys, when business
01:01:19was hot, we're doing $800, $1,000 a week.
01:01:22Yes, and where do you make that at that time?
01:01:25Even now, there's a lot of people that would love to make $500, $600, $700, $800 every
01:01:30week.
01:01:31It, it, it just, you know, once again, the amount of people, the tickets were affordable.
01:01:37Yeah.
01:01:38What do you think top ticket was then in the Omni, $8, $10?
01:01:42Maybe $10.
01:01:43Maybe $10.
01:01:44But now, if you go, and I, I noticed that they're coming back to Atlanta, the other
01:01:48big group that's in there, it's $275 a seat.
01:01:51Oh, geez.
01:01:52Well, first of all, do you go to Disney World for half that, and enjoy yourself all day,
01:02:01or do you not go at $275 and watch four or five matches that might be okay?
01:02:08So how do you equate that, from $10 to $275?
01:02:13This is not WrestleMania.
01:02:15This is a night at the Omni now.
01:02:17Well, speaking of a night at the Omni, New Year's Day 1979, here's another card for you.
01:02:23NWA World Heavyweight Championship Harley Race vs. Andre the Giant, Georgia Tag Team
01:02:28Championship.