Reaction as Régis Le Bris appointed as Sunderland's new head coach
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast. We are five minutes late because Phil was making
00:25coffee. Phil, what type of coffee have you got this morning?
00:29Just your standard coffee, nothing to shout home about. But if I'm going to have to sit
00:35and talk to you for at least half an hour, then I need some additional help. I think
00:39the good people of Wearside will totally understand that.
00:42Yeah, you'll definitely need stimulating. So, Lund, they've got a new head coach, Phil.
00:47We're going to have a little conversation about that. A long, protracted, drawn-out
00:50process has come to an end after quite some time. Michael Beale was sacked in February.
00:56Greg Dodds took interim charge. It's had a lot of twists and turns, this process, it
01:03seems. How smoothly do you feel that it's gone? Obviously, there was the big Will Still
01:08Elephant in the room at one point as well.
01:11Yeah, I think that's probably it. I think that, like everybody else, probably my first
01:17emotion actually when it was clear that Regis Lebrie was getting the job, that it was happening,
01:23I think it was probably relief more than anything else. And that's probably not a great
01:28place to be in, to be honest, because I think most people are just sort of like, thank God
01:32that's done and we can sort of move on with our lives, which is probably never really
01:36where you want your fan base to be.
01:39How smooth has it been?
01:41Not very. I think there's probably a couple of factors. One is that Sunderland's kind
01:48of deliberately started a lot later than they would have in this process, because I think
01:52they took some time to sort of look at themselves and say, how did we get it so badly wrong
01:58with Michael Bale and what do we need to change? So that was part of the reason. And obviously,
02:02as you say, from Sunderland's view, what they thought was going to happen when Will Still
02:07became available was that they could start that process, hopefully get it done. And let's
02:12be fair, if Will Still had accepted the job, this would have been done a month ago. And
02:18I think at that point, I think fans would have gone, well, actually, they've bided their
02:22time, they've waited for the person they really wanted and he's in with. At that point, it
02:26would have been three, four weeks before pre-season started. I actually think there would have
02:30been a lot of excitement and enthusiasm and people would probably have said that, you
02:34know, the timescale had been about what they expected. So, you know, that clearly was the
02:40main factor why it was taking so long. And once Will Still decided to go elsewhere, that
02:45clearly slowed the process down significantly. And the one thing, you know, that we should
02:50say is that, you know, Sunderland have been pretty clear that the main reason why this
02:53took so long after Will Still turned down the job was because they had to get a work
02:57permit for Rajeesh Libri. From what I hear, obviously, you have this criteria whereby
03:03you can automatically get a work permit. Libri, from what I understand, missed that by margins,
03:12which meant that they had to go through the process of a formal hearing and all that kind
03:15of stuff. And obviously, that negotiated with Lorient because there is a compensation
03:20fee involved. So, it's not been smooth. It's not been great. Off the back of the Michael
03:24Beale disaster, if you like, it's really not been good to have such a long, drawn-out process.
03:30But I suppose there are a few reasons for that. So, I think the big question is, isn't
03:34it, is like that rubbish end to the season where it just completely drifted and it felt
03:39like the club was lacking leadership. The whole idea was, well, this will give the club
03:43time to get a really high-caliber candidate who will be available in the summer. Is Rajeesh
03:48Libri that guy? That's the question. We don't know, don't we? And that's where this will
03:52kind of sink or swim on.
03:54No, absolutely. I don't want to dwell on it too long, Phil, just because we want to talk
03:59about Rajeesh Libri. But the Will Still debacle, obviously, Sunderland were keen on him after
04:08Tony Mowbray went and couldn't get him. They got pretty far down the garden path this
04:12time around. And I actually felt a little bit sorry for them as we've heard details
04:18sort of come out in the wash. You know, they say that Will Still had sort of verbally agreed
04:24contracts and parameters and it was all set to go ahead. And then, you know, a club in
04:29France who were going to be playing European football have come in. That's turned his head
04:32and he's gone there. He's perfectly entitled to do that. He's looking after himself and
04:36trying to get the best possible deal. But that really exacerbated, didn't it, the need
04:43to find Michael Beale's permanent successor, because it had been so long and they had gone
04:48down that garden path. Obviously, they had other names in the frame as well. There were
04:52four others, including Will Still. But that seemed to really knock this sort of process
04:58back as you would expect. And fans really became sort of disgruntled all over again
05:05in the summer, which is a shame from a sort of public relations standpoint.
05:09Yeah, I think one of the interesting things about this manager search was that it struck
05:14me that Sunderland were in a lot of ways being quite ambitious. So, you know, they were going
05:19after names with decent reputations in the game. I know we all rightly look at Sunderland
05:25as a huge club, a huge opportunity, 40,000 fans and what have you. It's also the case
05:30that it's a long time since they've now been in the Premier League. They haven't got the
05:33biggest budget at this level. And so they were being quite ambitious with the names
05:37that they were going after. You know, people like, for example, Danny Rowe has now a pretty
05:42big reputation in the game because of his background and what he's done in one season
05:46at Sheffield Wednesday. So what was interesting to me was this ambition. But we were also
05:51looking at going, as we know, because of Sunderland's structure, the head coach role at Sunderland
05:55is quite a restricted one. So, you know, whether you're for or against it, the facts are you're
06:02not going to have an absolutely central role in recruitment. A lot of that work is going
06:07to be done sort of outside of your control. We know that there were, you know, parameters
06:11around your coaching staff. And so what was interesting to me is how are you going to
06:15bring this to a conclusion when you're going after ambitious, you know, you're making ambitious
06:19moves for people who have offers from top tier clubs, offers from clubs playing European
06:23football, and yet you're offering them a relatively sort of restricted role. What's really interesting
06:29is obviously Regis Lebrie, all the early indications are from what we understand,
06:34is that actually he's going to be bringing in a bit more staff than we thought he was.
06:38So there seems to have been a little bit of flexibility appears to have emerged quite
06:43late in this process. And maybe some of the initial assumptions that we had and that Sunderland
06:47started off with in terms of, you know, the coaching staff and what have you, there seems
06:51to have been a little bit of flexibility shown to get this deal over the line. What's really
06:56interesting is that I think had it been Will Still, had it been Danny Rowe, even if it
07:01had been, for an example, Marty Sifuentes to an extent, I think we would have been hugely
07:06excited because we would have been going and saying, hang on, has Sunderland shown that
07:10little bit of flexibility we've all been crying out for to get one of these really high calibre
07:14candidates? Now, Sunderland really feel that Regis Lebrie is of that stature, he's of that
07:19coaching quality. It's hard for us to make a judgment on that because he's had two seasons
07:24in senior football, one of which went very, very, very well and one of which went very badly.
07:29So it's quite difficult to sit here, isn't it, and be wildly enthusiastic and say, you
07:33know, how exciting is it that Regis Lebrie is coming in, he's bringing some more of his
07:39own staff, exciting new era. We just don't know that. I feel like it's impossible to
07:43make that judgment at the moment because of his track record. But I do think it seems
07:48to me that we may be seeing a little bit of a flexibility emerge late on to get this done.
07:54And that's quite interesting moving forward. We already know that while the model, I think
08:00I've got eight minutes before using the word model, which is a huge bonus, but the indications
08:05are there's going to be, the model's going to stay, but there might be some tweaks. We
08:08are going to see some players coming in with some championship experience. Obviously, the
08:12first time was Simon Moore, which is maybe a little bit revealing in that sense. So it
08:17does feel like there's a little bit more flexibility now, but everything rests and falls on how
08:22good really is Regis Lebrie because, you know, some of them have been clear that he
08:26was, as you alluded to earlier, he was on that five-man shortlist from the start. They
08:31went for Will Steele. When Will Steele became available, that was clear the direction they
08:35wanted to go down. But they feel they've got one of their top candidates. They feel it's
08:40a coup to get him to come to the championship. Very difficult to make a judgment on that
08:45on what is a fairly small sort of body of work. At first team level, obviously, he's
08:50been an academy coach and an academy sort of manager at a good level for a long time.
08:55Yeah, lots of people asking about the backroom staff, Phil, which you mentioned there. Our
09:00friend Graham Falk of the What The Falk podcast and also of the Scotsman, big Sunderland fan.
09:07He's broken the news that there are three coaches linked really with Sunderland Ingo
09:13Goetze. He's also revealed that Sunderland are in talks with Jean-Marie David and Erwin
09:19Lepostek. I think I've got that right. My French isn't very good, as you well know,
09:24Phil. Where does that leave Mike Dodds and Michael Proctor, Phil? Because obviously they've
09:30been part of this first team coaching set up at Sunderland for a considerable amount
09:35of time now under Alex Neyland and Sonny Mowbray and then taking the club on an interim basis,
09:39I think three times it is now, obviously last season from February up until the end
09:43of the season. It's a really interesting question. On the one hand, you would say that in terms
09:49of coaches that know this squad, know what it needs, can be an ally in the dressing room,
09:56can explain the demands of the fans, the demands of the stadium, the way Sunderland is, it's
10:00a real benefit. But on the other hand, it's not hard to envisage a scenario in which maybe
10:05ideas do clash a little bit and camps develop. It's a really interesting side story to the
10:12transfer window this summer.
10:13It's going to be really interesting to see how that plays out. The one thing I would
10:18say is that Mike Dodds is always pretty clear towards the end of last season that he loves
10:23it here, he loves it in the area, he loves working with the players, he feels he's got
10:26a relationship with them and he wanted to continue that. But he also said the relationship
10:31will be dictated by the new head coach and he was fairly comfortable with that. And even
10:35in his short time really at the club, it's been different from head coach to head coach.
10:41So from my understanding, Tony Mowbray gave him a huge amount of latitude to develop,
10:49to do a lot of analysis, to do a lot of preparation. I think that just reflected Mowbray's leadership
10:53style, very, very comfortable in his own skin, knew his qualities, knew his strengths.
11:01And so I think he was happy to delegate really. From what I gather, I think Michael Bale took
11:06a lot more control of a lot of that stuff. And from what I understand, Dodds had probably
11:11not as huge a role. And I think that made the transition for him quite difficult when
11:16he came back in as interim boss for the second time.
11:20So and that probably in the end was a bad thing because I think Bale probably ended
11:24up quite isolated and probably ended up taking on too much really. And that was absolutely
11:28not what was supposed to happen. You know, that was really the opposite of what was supposed
11:32to happen with the club structure. So I think it's fairly clear he's saying we shouldn't
11:38speculate too much before this is all confirmed. But I think it's fairly clear that Lebrie
11:43is going to bring in more of his own staff and that might lead to a reshuffling. Will
11:47it lead to less of a direct match preparation role for Mike Dodds? Possibly. But I do personally
11:56think it's probably a good thing as long as those roles are defined, because I think,
12:01you know, Bale, I thought, to me, looked quite isolated. And I think that always was a factor
12:05in why, you know, maybe some of the external pressures he didn't handle as well as he could
12:10have done, I think, because he did seem like he was very isolated. So you're right. And
12:14I think there's definitely some question marks over that. But I do broadly see it as a positive.
12:19I understand the continuity thing and I understand the stability thing. But you've also got to
12:24give the new head coach or whoever is taking on what is, let's be honest, a hugely pressurised
12:29role with a lot of scrutiny. You need to give them the opportunity to be the best sort of
12:34version of themselves really. And that's ensuring they're comfortable in their day-to-day roles.
12:38So I think hopefully that bringing some staff who he's familiar with and who know how he
12:43works and what he wants on the training pitch, I think will hopefully allow him to settle
12:47a bit more and get his ideas across. But it's going to be really interesting to see how
12:51those roles are defined. And as you say, ensuring, I think, as I think you alluded to, which
12:57is the most important thing, ensuring there aren't too many voices. I think that's also
13:01really important that you have that clarity as well.
13:04I feel like it's a tough spot for Mike Dodds as well, Phil. And this isn't sort of any
13:08fault of his own, but, you know, there's almost a spectre of him at the club in terms
13:14of the new head coach, Reggie Slippery, comes in. Hopefully he gets off to a flying start.
13:17That would be absolutely marvellous. But say, you know, he loses two draws, one, obviously
13:22you'd think Sunderland are in it for the long term. But there's always the spectre of Mike
13:26Dodds at the club, given that fans know that he's taken the role three times, that he's
13:31able to do it. He was handed a hospital pass really from February onwards. Should Sunderland
13:37have done a little bit better than the 16th? Yes, definitely. Should performances have
13:40been better? Yes, but there were still sort of shortcomings in that squad. So it was a
13:44hard job for Mike Dodds, probably lowered his stock a little bit. But I just wonder
13:48having him sort of in and around the club, again, no fault of his own. He's seen as sort
13:53of speak and as a man, isn't he? Whether that sort of harms the narrative. Sunderland internally
13:59might not care or pay any credence to that. But in terms of the fan base, as soon as Reggie
14:04Slibury has a little sticky patch, there's always going to be those calls, isn't there?
14:09I think that's, yeah, I think that's the biggest issue. And I think that's been something that
14:12we've discussed a lot, isn't it? In terms of, and to be honest, and it's probably not
14:16fair on Dodds, but I think we've always asked that question, haven't we? If you're somebody
14:23coming into the role, you're looking at it going, well, yeah, so you're adamant that
14:27I have to work with this person. And yet, you know, I've already seen this guy take
14:31over from three people. And I think that's just a totally understandable human emotion
14:35that you'd be a little bit wary of that. I think if you have this idea that, you know,
14:41Speakman is potentially always looking and hoping to ultimately give this person the
14:45job at some point in the future, then there's going to be an obvious wariness, haven't they?
14:51But I think the noises, the early noises about the restructuring of the staff seem to suggest
14:56that there's a recognition that they needed to show a little bit of flexibility in order
15:01to get LaBrie in. So I'm probably less concerned about that than I would have been a few weeks
15:06ago, I think. And probably the one thing I would say as well is, you know, obviously
15:10it's been a fraught process at times, and rightly so, and I don't think it's gone as
15:13smoothly as it should have done. I definitely think that fans, I think, were taken a little
15:18bit for granted at times. By the way, there was just almost this wall of silence after
15:22the pretty dismal end to the season. I think a lot more could have been done. Having said
15:27that, you know, you have to judge at the end point, and if the end point is that a lot
15:32of that flexibility that we've called for ends up being shown, then I think you have
15:36to recognise that. And maybe we'll put a little bit of a different perspective on how
15:40Wilson couldn't get a head coach because of the staff, because they wouldn't, you know,
15:44give them the latitude. Well, it looks like maybe that's actually going to be the case,
15:47but we'll wait and see when that's confirmed. The thing that I keep coming back to is, like,
15:53all, you know, Sunday, putting a lot of faith in Le Bret and see it as a real coup. And
15:59let's hope that their judgment in his coaching abilities and in his approach is justified,
16:06because I think that ultimately, after they made, you know, everything comes back to that
16:12controversial decision to let Mo Brick go. And I think off the back of Bale and what
16:18happened there, off the way the season ended, after the way the season ended, given the
16:21fact that the last two transfer windows have been so poor, if Le Bret doesn't work, I genuinely
16:26think there'll be people saying we need more deep-rooted change at the club. We need a
16:31change in football leadership. I personally, I think if this doesn't work, I think that's
16:35absolutely inevitable. So this is a huge, this is a huge sort of call to give Le Bret
16:42the job as someone who is ultimately untested at the championship level. What's really going
16:45to be really, there's two things that I'm really kind of interested to see what happens
16:49with Regis Le Bret. So we talked about that extra time that they took to assess what had
16:54gone wrong with Michael Bale, what they needed to change. And the noises were very much that
16:59we tweaked some of our criteria in order to try and address those shortcomings. Really
17:06interested to see what kind of communicator Le Bret is, because that was one of Bale's
17:09biggest issues, and it was one of Mo Brick's biggest strengths. Le Bret, by all accounts,
17:13speaks good English, which was a big tick in his box from what I understand. But I'll
17:18be interested to see if he handles that pressure better, if he communicates better, if he can
17:23build that rapport with the fans. And the other thing is the playing style, because
17:27a huge amount of credibility was lost in the current football leadership by the way that
17:31they talked for a long time about evidence-based approach, evidence-based decisions, being
17:38clear-headed, not sort of reacting to things, not being impulsive. Well, to go from what
17:44Mo Brick was doing in the playing style to get rid of him and then bring in Bale, who
17:47then, in my opinion, implemented a more defensive approach and took the playing style backwards.
17:52I think that lost a lot of credibility and it lost a lot of trust in the decisions that
17:55were being made. Le Bret seemed to play quite a counter-attacking style at Lorient. He played
18:03the three at the back a lot, which to me doesn't really tally with what Sunderland's stated
18:08sort of front-foot aggressive possession-based approach is supposed to be. Now, from what
18:12I gather, that's not how Le Bret played in the academy, and that's not necessarily
18:16his favourite approach. It's how he sort of adjusted to the plays he had at Lorient.
18:22But those two things are going to be really interesting to me, because I want to see signs
18:25that they've addressed those shortcomings from the Bale era and they're getting the
18:29club back on track, if you like. And it's going to be really interesting, because I
18:33think if Le Bret isn't able to do that and the results aren't there, I do think we're
18:37inevitably going to be looking for a bit of a... People are going to be calling, I think,
18:42for broader change on the football side.
18:45No, you're right in what you said, and I would add to that, Phil, by probably pointing out
18:50that it's such an important appointment, this, that it goes well, that they get it right,
18:55because I would argue that maybe this is the lowest ebb in terms of Kiri-Louis Dreyfus'
19:00popularity since his time on Sunderland, and certainly people rightly like to judge
19:07Christian Speakman's role in things as well. I would argue that the two of them, the front-facing
19:13members of Sunderland's hierarchy, I think their popularity is probably at its lowest ebb.
19:19That's not universal by any means, that they still have supporters, they still have people
19:24who will defend decisions, and rightly so, because it's very nuanced. I almost feel like
19:28we fall into a trap of Louis Dreyfus in or out. I think whatever your opinion is, you
19:34have to acknowledge that there does need to be improvement, and hopefully this appointment
19:37is a step towards that. Yeah, I think so, and I think the Kirill aspect of this is incredibly
19:44interesting in the context of the Lipari appointment. So, all of this is about this
19:50like, inverted commas, high-performance stuff. I know everyone will like the model, everyone
19:55will have their own opinions on that, but we know, and it was obvious, and it became
20:00even more obvious afterwards, that there was some friction with Tony Mowbray. I don't think
20:06Kirill took hugely to Mowbray's coaching style, to his approach. It seems to me that Kirill has
20:12an incredibly specific, detailed preference for how he likes things to be done on the
20:20training ground, how he likes the club to operate, and we all, after Mowbray went, felt
20:28we had quite a strong idea of what was going to come in, and that it would be an up-and-coming,
20:34inverted commas, coach, someone with an inverted commas, elite coaching background. Now, I
20:39always thought that was hugely disrespectful to Mowbray, who, you know, just look at his
20:43record and look at the players he's brought through, you can't be a bad coach if you've
20:47got that kind of record. And the football he played. So, I always felt that was incredibly
20:53disrespectful, but it was clear, I think, where the frictions were and what Kirill wanted.
20:58Now, Bale sort of fit the bill, in terms of his academy background, the players he coached,
21:03and what have you, but I think it was pretty clear then that they didn't get the targets
21:07he'd initially set out for. And that was one of the reasons why they've waited so long,
21:11was because they felt those candidates would be available in the summer.
21:15So, I think the appointment of Labrie comes hugely from Kirill's belief in the importance
21:20of the training ground culture, in the importance of the coaching methods, and the importance of
21:25a certain kind of approach, and Labrie is absolutely his man on that front. He obviously
21:32feels that Labrie's coaching background, sort of the standards he'll set, what he'll drive
21:36on the training ground, is going to make a huge difference to Sunderland's playing output.
21:42Now, I said at the time, after Bale went, that I think a lot of that is all well and good,
21:46but you're in danger of underestimating some very important aspects of managing Sunderland,
21:51and that's the external pressures, communicating, the human touch of dealing with players who
21:56are under a huge amount of scrutiny and pressure every week and are managing a lot of expectations.
22:01And I think that human touch is even more acute when those players are obviously so
22:05young in so many cases and so inexperienced. And so, I'm really interested to see how Labrie
22:10manages those kind of things, but I think that there's no doubt to me that this appointment
22:14is driven a huge amount by what Kirill wants to see at the Academy of Light and how he wants
22:19things to structure behind the scenes, and I think he clearly feels that Labrie is the perfect fit for
22:25that, and that's why he's a push for him, and why he's looking to appoint him even off the back of
22:30his relegation. And I think that's going to be a really interesting aspect of this next phase,
22:36and I'm really interested to see if those lessons from the Bale era have been learned, or if to an
22:40extent, they're actually doubling down on what they believe is going to drive success. And so,
22:45all these things are going to be really interesting, but I think your point is really
22:50an interesting one, because I do think this is a huge appointment for how people perceive
22:55Kirill and whether they feel he's leading the club in the right direction.
22:59It's really interesting, isn't it, Phil, that the direction of football, just
23:03more broadly, and I'm spitballing here slightly, but we've moved to the director of football model,
23:07you've got head of recruitments, you've got assistant coaches, the role of the manager
23:12has lessened, it's splintered, but it all, in the end, seems to come down to the head coach and how
23:18good or bad he is, and it's interesting, the sudden sort of succession planning and moving
23:25away from the head coach being the most important figure at a football club, which I do agree with,
23:30because I just think there's so much to do at a football club now, that it all does, though,
23:35seem to come back to the head coach and whether or not he's a success, and it's incredible,
23:39really, isn't it? Well, there's two parts to it. One is that, is that still true? So, the thing
23:45that I think, whatever anybody thinks about, all of the individuals have mentioned and stuff,
23:49I think every single Sunderland fan would say, well, it doesn't matter if it's Will Steele,
23:54Regis Labrie, Daniel Royal, Martin Sifuentes, unless you have better transfer windows than
23:59you've had in the last two, right? So, I actually think that's a massive part of this, is, I think,
24:03everyone would recognise that the recruitment needs to be better if Labrie is to have
24:06any chance whatsoever, but your other side of it is what I absolutely agree with, in terms of
24:12the structures have changed a lot, and that has taken away a lot of the importance or the seeming
24:18importance of the manager as we move to, like, head coach model, but there are still some old
24:22school, when it's a club of Sunderland size, there are still some old school managerial
24:28qualities that are unbelievably important, and communication and leadership are a big part of
24:33that. And, you know, I argued loads that I felt the appointment of Bale had underestimated that
24:38side of it, and it's impossible to make a judgment on Labrie, because we just know so little about
24:44him. I get the impression that he's a very, very, sort of, calm figure, and maybe that'll be,
24:51sort of, good, he'll have that, sort of, emotional balance, and not too high, not too low,
24:55which I think is incredible. That's something that Alex Neil and Tony Mowbray both had,
24:58I think, that allowed them to be a success. You know, they were never up a height when Sunderland
25:03won, and they were never, sort of, particularly flat after Sunderland lost. I think they had that
25:09emotional balance. I do also think sometimes, you do sometimes need, and Roy Keane had it,
25:16Sam Allardyce had it, Alex Neil had it, Tony Mowbray, that, sort of, innate ability to,
25:21maybe, tell the fans what's what, without offending them, which is something I don't
25:25think Michael Bale had at all. No, and that's what I mean. I think all these skills are a huge part
25:30of being a success at Sunderland, and that makes it very different to a lot of championship clubs,
25:35where the focus is different. I would imagine Leeds United is similar. I would imagine you
25:40need to have those skills to be a success at Leeds, probably Sheffield Wednesday to an extent,
25:45but I think it is different to a lot of these, to a lot of other championship clubs, and that's
25:49not being disrespectful. I think it's just the reality of the size of the club you're dealing
25:53with and the fan base, and that, for me, is going to be, you know, a big challenge for Labrie, and
26:00like I say, I feel as if, you know, a lot of Kirill's criteria and Kirill's judgment is made
26:05on internal stuff, and obviously, that is the most important stuff. How good is he on the training
26:10ground? That is obviously the most important stuff, but I do think, you know, that they
26:14underestimated the importance of how good Mowbray was at that stuff, and they probably underestimated
26:21the importance of how important it would be that Bale was good at that stuff, and it's going to be
26:28interesting to see to what extent that factored in their discussions with Labrie, their judgments
26:33on Labrie, because I think that is a massive part of the role, and as you say, even though we're
26:39moving away from the old-school manager title, I still think there are some skills to that job
26:44that are still very applicable to Sunderland, even if you're not, you know, choosing all the players
26:49and setting budgets and all that kind of stuff. And that head coach sort of reach, it does expand
26:56to players and player acquisitions, player departures and contracts as well. You know,
27:01Chris Rigg and Dan Nailfill are two players that we know of, there may even be more, that are
27:07holding off or have held off because they want to see who Sunderland's new manager is, and in that
27:11sense, again, you know, this appointment takes on added importance because, you know, who knows when
27:18Dan Nail and Chris Rigg retire at the end of their careers in 15 years' time, how much accumulatively
27:23they will have sold for in the transfer market down the years. You know, Sunderland don't want
27:27to miss out on that, you know, whether it's transfer fees now or later, and again, it adds
27:34more importance to this appointment of Reggie Labrie, who we all hope will be a success,
27:40but it just, it sort of solidifies how, you know, the magnitude of it really and what he has to do
27:46and what his itinerary is. Yeah, and again, that goes both ways though, so it's definitely up to
27:52Labrie to show on the training ground, to give the players a sense of their importance in his plans
27:58and also to be good enough and to be clear enough to give them the clarity that, yeah, we're back on
28:02track here, we're moving in the right direction, I think we can have a good season, but that's also
28:06massively, massively incumbent on the club in the transfer market to send that signal as well.
28:11You know, I have no doubt that those players in the squad will be looking at Labrie and going,
28:17assessing him, judging him when they come back for pre-season, trying to make a judgment on
28:21what kind of season's going to be, but I think they'll even more so be doing that in the transfer
28:25market. Yeah. They'll all know what the player, they could all, they were on the pitch, so they
28:29know even better than we do what the issues were last season, you know, red flashing light, shock,
28:34horror, the final third, the penalty box, and so I think that stuff will be every bit as important as
28:39how good Labrie is. They'll be looking at going, are we going to get this sorted this summer?
28:43You can, we all know what the problem is, we need it, you know, we need firepower up front. If Jack
28:48Clark goes, what are you going to do about that? Because we saw how important Jack Clark was last
28:53season. Are you going to replace him with someone who can, you know, produce something approaching
28:56similar? So I think there's all these questions. I do think, for all we've talked there about how
29:02you can't underestimate the importance of the head coach role, it is also important that we
29:08accept that Sunderland is a very different football club now, and I don't think that will be the be-all
29:12and end-all for these players. I'm not saying it won't be hugely important, because it absolutely
29:16will be, but I do think, because we've talked so much about, understandably so, about the head
29:21coach search, I think maybe the transfer window has fallen a little bit behind in our discussions,
29:26and actually, off the back of a bad season and two pretty poor transfer windows, I mean, that is
29:30an absolutely massive one, and I do think the players on the squad, they'll absolutely be looking
29:36to Labrie, but I think they'll also be very, very interested in Chris Hutchinson speaking, and what
29:42his transfer plans are this summer. And just on that as well, Phil, to throw it back to the coaches
29:49and Labrie's potential arrivals at Sunderland, Sunderland have adjusted the model there,
29:55they've changed, it looks like they're going to change, it's not necessarily what they had in
29:59mind or wanted to do, there's a recognition maybe that, yes, we need to sort of move our thinking
30:05forward on that. Do you think that's going to translate into the transfer window as well now?
30:09I mean, you know, I think we've all called for experience in this squad at some point over the
30:15past 12 months, we've had a sort of a bleed on experience with Danny Bath, Alex Pritchard,
30:20Lyndon Gooch going, you know, all different situations, but it's left Sunderland maybe a
30:26little bit rudderless at times, just with the amount of youth, obviously there's some talent
30:30that plays there as well. We know the need, you know, central midfield, that's a position that
30:35needs additions in to add depth, experience, tactical variety, and the big one is, of course,
30:41we know that we need a striker that can score goals. Sunderland have tended to prioritise youth,
30:46I'm expecting them to do so again, but will there be a little bit of an acknowledgement that, yes,
30:51maybe we may have to spend a little bit more money to buy more of a ready-made thing compared to a
30:58Hemiya or an Eliza Meander? Yeah, I think so. I think there's definitely a recognition that they
31:05need more championship experience in the squad. Now, what I would say is Sunderland see it very
31:10differently in terms of the age thing, I think they would reject, I think they would say it's
31:15not about age, it's about, you know, both championship experience is important. So, I think
31:20they would now see Dan Neil, for example, as experienced at championship level. Dan Ballard,
31:26I think they would say, well, he's an experienced championship player. Now, I think last season
31:31there was too much put on those lads, even if we accept that they've matured incredibly well and
31:36that they're now quite experienced at championship level. So, I do expect them to add championship
31:41experience. Will that be extensive or will it just be to replace Corey Evans and Bradley Dack?
31:47I'm not 100% sure on that one. I think that's a big thing to remember as well, is that Evans and
31:52Dack were meant to be kind of two of the experienced players last season. Dack more so,
31:56because obviously Evans had an ACL that we knew he was going to miss most of the season. Dack was
32:00added really to cover that experience that was lost in Gooch and Barr and obviously potentially
32:06Alex Pritchard, who could have left in the summer and did leave in January. Now, that was a mistake,
32:10because Dack just wasn't fit enough regularly enough to become a big voice in the dressing
32:15room, really, and to be a big leader on the pitch. So, it's not just about adding championship
32:20experience, it's making sure it's the right deal as well, because clearly, you know, Dack wasn't.
32:26So, I do think there'll be some tweaks. I do think that we'll see more championship
32:30experience come into the squad than we've seen in the last two windows. That's obviously
32:34already started with Simon Moore, albeit he's probably going to be more of a backup player.
32:38I don't necessarily see it getting much easier in the final third. I've got to be honest about that.
32:44I think they will try and add an experienced, proven striker, but I think we'll see the same
32:48thing that happens, or the same challenges that we saw with Keith Lamoore in January, whereby
32:52most of the championship is trying to buy or loan a very, very, very small poodle of experienced,
32:57championship-proven strikers, and some of them won't have the biggest budget. That remains a
33:01faith, and they have got to be completely honest about that. It doesn't mean it won't get done,
33:06doesn't mean that they won't manage it, but that is the one area of pitch where I think
33:12there's a part of me that thinks that we may well pin for another bit of a saga, to be honest.
33:16Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. I'm not trying to be scrupulous.
33:19I do absolutely think we'll see...
33:22Go for a third one, sorry.
33:25No, I was just going to say, I do see more championship experience than we've seen in
33:28the last two windows. I 100% expect that, but I do worry about upfront most nights.
33:35That's what keeps me awake.
33:37That striker position is interesting, and I'm not trying to give Sunderland an out,
33:41because this has been a long-running problem for a long time, but you speak to fans of
33:48championship clubs, with a few exceptions, and most of them actually say, oh yeah, we need a
33:54striker. It is difficult to do that. Phil, have you got anything else you would like to get off
33:59your chest before we draw an end to this podcast? We will probably go into transfer
34:05expectations and predictions in a bit more detail next week, perhaps. We don't want to
34:12overcook the podcast, because we won't have anything to talk about.
34:15Well, we should throw it out there as well. If anybody's got any stuff they want us to talk
34:19about, specifically around Regis Lebrie and Sunderland and stuff, then we'd be very happy
34:26to do a listener Q&A or something, wouldn't we? If anyone's got any questions or big talking
34:30points they'd like to discuss in more depth, perhaps it gives a shout, because we'd be really
34:34keen to do that, wouldn't we? It's interesting, because the final point I would make on the whole
34:40thing is I feel like Sunderland feel they've got to a really good conclusion, because they feel
34:46they've got one of their really high-caliber coaches. I think they feel this has been bumpy,
34:53but ended up being very successful. It's just going to be so interesting to see how good Lebrie
34:57is, because people are going to make judgments, I think, on the hierarchy based on this judgment
35:04call they've made on Lebrie. It's exciting, and it's also absolutely terrifying.
35:10Because you're only as good as your squad as well. You're only as good as your squad.
35:13Yes, exactly. Yes, interesting times, but at least we actually know who it is now,
35:18and we can all get on with our lives.
35:21I don't know what I'm going to write about now, Phil. I was enjoying my daily day count. I don't
35:26know what I'm going to tweet now. Oh, I'm sure you'll find some rubbish to tweet. I've got
35:32absolutely no concerns about that. Fantastic. Well, Phil actually produced an On The Whistle video
35:39answering your questions about Regis Lebrie, so head over to YouTube and find that. This podcast
35:44will be available on all podcast platforms. It has streamed on YouTube, Twitter and Facebook.
35:50There's been a fair few people listening as well, Phil, which has been good. Approaching
35:55the 1,000 mark at times, so thanks for tuning in. Head over to the Southern Echo website for
36:01all of your latest transfer content, and yeah, get in touch if there's any questions you would
36:06like answering. Phil, thanks for joining us. I'm James Copley, and thanks for listening to The Raw.