Ukrainians warn that Taiwan's current affairs, with hostile military drills at its borders and legislators traveling overseas, are reminiscent of Ukrainian politics right before Russia’s 2022 invasion. Civil defense experts say Taiwanese civilians need to be prepared.
On this episode of Zoom In Zoom Out, TaiwanPlus reporter Leslie Liao sits down with Kateryna Muzlova. Kateryna is the co-founder and CEO of Heart in Action, a civil defense charity in Ukraine. We first zoom in on Kateryna’s personal experiences of the Russo-Ukrainian war, then zoom out to connect her civil defense expertise with present-day Taiwan.
On this episode of Zoom In Zoom Out, TaiwanPlus reporter Leslie Liao sits down with Kateryna Muzlova. Kateryna is the co-founder and CEO of Heart in Action, a civil defense charity in Ukraine. We first zoom in on Kateryna’s personal experiences of the Russo-Ukrainian war, then zoom out to connect her civil defense expertise with present-day Taiwan.
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00:00Welcome to Zoom In Zoom Out, your global look at news from here in Taiwan.
00:16I'm Leslie Liao.
00:18Sixteen Taiwanese lawmakers made a trip to China in late April this year.
00:25And civil defense experts from Ukraine are warning that trips like these could compromise
00:29Taiwan's national security.
00:31We'll dive deeper into this issue with our guest later, but first let's take a look at
00:36a report which shows us what Ukrainian experts think on the matter.
00:40Our reporter Jaime Ocon has the story.
00:43Here at this forum in Taipei, civil defense leaders from Ukraine are teaching people here
00:47about the lessons they've learned in fighting against Russia's invasion of their country.
00:51It's organized by the KUMA Academy, one of Taiwan's largest civil defense groups.
00:56And it's part of an effort to educate as many people as possible on what to do in a
01:00war.
01:01For the civil defense, we usually focus on first aid or evacuation.
01:07But in this new kind, I mean, in this new form of hybrid warfare, it's quite crucial
01:14that we need to focus on first the information space, the cybersecurity part, and also disinformation.
01:21Along with fighting disinformation, there are also calls for Taiwanese civilians to
01:25learn more about first aid and using small arms, skills that will help them form militias
01:30that can work with the military.
01:33Ukrainian analysts who are just on the front lines say that any help goes a long way.
01:38It's really important in case of bombing, what you will do if someone will be injured.
01:45So no panic, just when you know how to use tourniquets and everything.
01:49This is even moral.
01:51It's important when you know what are your steps.
01:54Instead of fear, you have to be prepared.
02:01You can watch the full report on Taiwan Plus's website.
02:04Today in the studio, we're joined by Kateryna Muslova.
02:08She's the co-founder of the charity foundation Heart in Action Ukraine, and she was one of
02:12the experts present at the summit sharing her experiences in defending Ukraine against
02:16Russia.
02:17Kateryna, welcome to the show.
02:18Hi, thank you.
02:21So let's zoom in first and let's talk about what you're doing here in Taiwan.
02:25What is it that brought you here?
02:27It was very not expected for me when KUMA Academy invited me here and it was a big honor
02:33because I can share my experience from the war.
02:39And as a daughter of a defender of Mariupol, like I have some view how civil defense and
02:46how civilian people can protect and be prepared for anything, what can happen with them.
02:53Because before the full scale invasion in Ukraine, I was just civilian.
03:00I didn't care about wars.
03:02And when my father was in Mariupol as a defender, I had to recognize that I need to do something
03:08to help my father.
03:10So under the rockets, you had to learn how to survive, how to help other people, how
03:16to learn human rights and side things.
03:19So let's talk about your father.
03:20And you said he's a defender in Mariupol.
03:22Could you talk a little bit more about him and his work?
03:25He was a military from 2015.
03:28And when this full scale invasion starts, and rockets was in Odessa, in Kharkiv, everywhere
03:34in Ukraine, and Mariupol was almost occupied.
03:39So we had, we almost had a connection.
03:43So like, I had a hope that this will be finished very fast and he will come back.
03:50But I got only one call from him in March 2022.
03:56And after that, I didn't have any information because he was captivated from Russians.
04:02And he actually still in captivity with other military defenders of Mariupol and from other locations.
04:09So actually, it's one part of my work, it's a big part of my work, because in Ukraine
04:16currently thousands families of captivated people.
04:20It's civilian, military, and some kids who was captivated.
04:25So we work like to help military on frontline and we work to help military and civilian
04:33who captivated because it's a very difficult situation with this and people don't talk
04:40about that much.
04:41It must be very difficult hearing that your father's in captivity.
04:46Yeah, that's why we cooperate in Ukraine with the families of like defenders and civilians
04:53to like support each other.
04:55And we go to Europe, Council of Europe, Red Cross and such things like to help our families,
05:04to help our beloved because they don't have connection with us.
05:08And it's actually in human rights, captivated have to possibility at least send a letter
05:17to their families and our families can send a letter.
05:20So we really don't have information about their condition, about how was there, where
05:27was there, because Russian like move from one jail to other jail.
05:32So we sometimes we can't even know where is our beloved.
05:37So it's very tricky way how they do.
05:40Let's talk about back to Taiwan.
05:43Why did you want to come to Taiwan, even knowing it's like I have to travel for three days
05:48nonstop?
05:49Actually, I was like worrying about what's going on in Taiwan here.
05:53So I wanted to share my experience and when we did need support and Taiwan support Ukraine.
06:03So we can't do much now, but we can share our experience and these like these important
06:09things too.
06:10So I was thinking that it deserved to come here to meet people to like share my experience
06:17because before full scale invasion, I didn't care that we have a war there because it's
06:24like Ukraine, a pretty big country and you don't feel that war is somewhere there.
06:30I think that people here in Taiwan, they try to don't think that it's have possibility
06:37to like be invasion from China and China training here all the time, even when we arrived here.
06:46After inauguration, I received this news that they training again and people from Ukraine
06:52started like Russian did training only two or four years, so be careful.
06:58You've seen you've been here for the inauguration.
07:00It's been a very eventful week.
07:02You see what's happening in the legislature.
07:04And we also mentioned at the top of the show that there are some lawmakers that go to China.
07:10It's kind of like how some Ukrainian officials frequented Russia right before the invasion.
07:15What can you say about that?
07:16What do you see when you what do you think when you see that?
07:19Oh, honestly, I remember my childhood because I was young when such thing started in Ukraine.
07:28I finished my school only in 2013.
07:30And I remember that people in parliament had like fights.
07:36And I didn't understand what's going on.
07:37They just crazy because I was very young.
07:41And now I see that it was a way when people who were patriots, who was fighting for our
07:49independence and people who was cooperated business with Russia.
07:55It was just fight with them.
07:58And when I see what's going on here, like when people starting to vote with their hands
08:04without electronic system.
08:07I think like people here need to be more, how to say, more powerful and push on them.
08:16Because if you go to China and you want to work with China and you bring some ideas and
08:22laughs here to Taiwan from China, maybe you don't have to be like political for Taiwan.
08:31Maybe you prefer to work for China.
08:34If you try to put your ideas here to work in Taiwan, because Taiwan is totally different
08:41from China.
08:42I can see that.
08:43And I think the world can see that too, because Taiwan is very democratic and very peaceful
08:51country and China is totally, totally other way.
09:00So let's zoom out really quickly and talk about civil defense, because I can Google
09:04civil defense, but you have firsthand experience as a civil defender.
09:08So with that experience, what is civil defense?
09:12It can be different and it can transformate every time.
09:16When like war started, we had to only care about mostly about humanitarian support, about
09:22information support, about some kind of territory defense.
09:28But when war goes longer, we started to learn human rights and other ways how to protect
09:37people at the captivity and some injured people, how to help military and civilian who lost
09:48their legs, who lost their hands, how to help them to recovery.
09:54It's also mentally support.
09:56So it's very, very big field and mental health have different fields too.
10:02Mental health for military, mental health for families of captivity, mental health for
10:07people from occupied territory.
10:09So every area have like more, more, more.
10:14So it's very big field.
10:17It's a big field and you're here talking about your civil defense experiences in Taiwan.
10:22How is Taiwan doing in terms of civil defense preparation?
10:25I saw you have here a shelter and it was actually after inauguration, I find the shelter
10:33and I was like, let me get in there.
10:37Even I was on heels and dressed very well for inauguration, like I did go to this shelter
10:45and for my opinion, it was totally not prepared because there was some water, there wasn't
10:51anything actually.
10:53You even can't sit there, you can't charge your phone there, nothing.
10:57So for my experience, I think you need to start like prepare it because you have also
11:04here like earthquake and such things.
11:07So it can be useful for different situation because when our war started, civilian had
11:13to prepare most of shelters by themselves.
11:17And the first month people tried to like ignore that they have to do that and because we had
11:22like winter time, it was not so easy to do something.
11:27But when weather started to be more warm, everyone go out and men with women started
11:34to prepare, do renovation because there was rats and such things.
11:39So we had to make it useful because, you know, people, some people in your building can be
11:46old and sick.
11:47Some women can be pregnant.
11:51And if you will need to use it, it have to like be useful, not just, not just area, dirty
12:00area with water, with like too high humidity.
12:04So you need to prepare it.
12:06And if you will not need to use it, super, that's great.
12:10But you are prepared.
12:11Did you see anything else in Taiwan that made you think Taiwan needs to do more in order
12:17to prepare for civil defense?
12:19I think it's kind of talk more, talk more how you can do, how you can survive if no
12:27electricity, if no internet connection, if you like lost water, how to make filter rates
12:36and such things.
12:37So a lot of things what you can prepare for.
12:41So just, I think it will be very good, like Kuma Academy and like watch out another organization
12:50here.
12:51They do like some books, some, some trainings and such things.
12:56And I think will be very nice to make some training camps.
13:01So you can, you can learn how to make fire, how cook outside without anything, because
13:10we saw that in Mariupol people had to melt the snow to have water, at least something.
13:16So you need to learn how to survive if something go wrong, because I hear it as that people
13:23here starting to worrying a lot if they don't have electricity for five, 10 minutes.
13:30And we don't have electricity now in Ukraine for each day for at least a few hours.
13:36And some days we had, we was like for 24 hours or more without electricity at winter.
13:42So it's kind of difficult, but we know how to survive, how to prepare for this.
13:47So I recommend you just try to imagine what can happen and what you can do to protect
13:54yourself in this case.
13:56Well, it was so fascinating talking to you today, Kateryna, and learning about your insights
14:02and your experiences.
14:03It's been very eye opening.
14:05Thank you for joining us.
14:07Thank you.
14:08And thank you to Taiwanese people to support Ukraine.
14:12And we are ready to support Taiwan in all ways that we can for current moment.
14:18This has been Zoom In Zoom Out.
14:20For more stories from Taiwan and around the world, tune into our social media or check
14:25out our website.
14:26Thanks for joining us.
14:27I'm Leslie Leal.
14:35See you next time.
14:36Bye bye.
14:37Bye bye.
14:38Bye bye.