Veteran RSS member Ratan Sharda tells Outlook's Shweta Desai that BJP's famed machinery was weakened during the elections and its leaders failed to launch corrective measures in time, suffering heavy loses and conceding substantial ground to the opposition. BJP workers got complacent thinking Modi would make them win, and it didn't work.
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NewsTranscript
00:00So, basically, we come from a position that we belong to the same ideological family.
00:06So we have goodwill for each other, we believe that the party must win, we are the people
00:13who have seen the worst of the days.
00:15We have seen in Bharatiya Jan Sangh, to get 500 votes, we would be celebrating, when deposit
00:20was not lost, we would be celebrating.
00:22From there on, we have seen in 1984 also, we have seen the struggle of BJP leaders who
00:27brought it to this position, Sangh work, which came to a level where it became a humongous
00:34movement in 2014.
00:36Having seen that, we of course want this to continue.
00:39So as a part of the ideological family, we wish that whatever shortcomings have gotten
00:43to BJP organization structure, they should be removed.
00:47So basically, this article comes from the urge to make BJP recover the ground in the
00:53sense at the organization level, see voting, you might get more, you might get less.
00:57But it should not happen because of a lack in the organization.
01:01So as a well-wisher, this article is written.
01:04Is it targeted towards Prime Minister Modi or his leadership or the BJP cadre as a whole?
01:12No, it is targeted towards, not Modi ji at all, because we know we couldn't have a better
01:17Prime Minister, we know that we couldn't have a better campaigner, who would really take
01:22India to the typical civilizational understanding, which was missing.
01:26And what RSS has worked for 90 years, Modi ji has put it on ground in a good way.
01:31It is about the leadership or the middle level leadership, the local leadership, not the
01:35cadre, who have somehow got into a mood that we can always win, because many of them have
01:42seen only success.
01:43There is a whole generation which has seen 2014 onwards, always a success.
01:49They do not know the trial and travels of cadre, the workers, the pracharaks, who have
01:54put entire life's work, their own health, and they work very hard.
01:58So not having seen that, they believe everything is always green, everything is always wonderful,
02:02which is not so.
02:03So they believe that Modi ji is being so powerful, anything we can win and we can just go to
02:08social media, give some pictures, give some jokes or posters, whatever, and we can win.
02:13That is not true, because ultimately, Modi ji can create that atmosphere, he can pull
02:18people into the fold, but they have to go to vote.
02:22So when you come to election, the fame machine of BJP had got people out, had got weakened.
02:28This is a practical example, I don't have to give my example, you may be aware where
02:31many places the tables were not put in place, the lists were never shared, and many other
02:36things.
02:37So we knew somewhere things are not going wrong, because I have been meeting people
02:41all over India because of my travels.
02:44So I would, one of the places, somebody said, problem hai, lekin BJP lagta hai, Sangwale
02:49toh kya, Markhup ki humko jeetayenge hi.
02:51So this attitude, and I am talking of very normal kare karta in one of the cities of
02:56India.
02:58So if that is the feeling, then there is a problem.
03:01Then also everything is hunky-dory.
03:03So if you see the kind of fake videos which made places, you know, SCST, so BJP lost
03:09about 9 to 10% votes, lost about 34 seats, Congress gained 53 seats from that humor and
03:15fake videos.
03:16If that is happening, then what are the KDAL doing on the ground?
03:20So it was very comfortable, ki Modi ji jeetayenge, which is not right.
03:25And the middle level leaders who believe that kuch bhi kiya toh chalega, then the kind of
03:30candidate selection, so you have 25% defectors who got tickets.
03:36So it is not me or RSS or BJP who has to do anything, voters have not supported them.
03:41I raised this issue that kare kartas need to be sensitive to their people on the ground.
03:46So this feedback mechanism that something is going wrong, when these rumor mills are
03:50going on, videos are being moved around UP, where is my kare karta?
03:55If he was there, why didn't put the feedback back to the top leadership, why they let people
03:59feel that everything is fine?
04:01So this is where the problem is, because of this lack of, you know, understanding on
04:05the ground, and believing they are photo darling, a selfie worker, I call them, you put a photograph
04:10someday with one worker as a leader, put it in places in social media, I believe I have
04:15done my job.
04:16No, that's not true.
04:17As I keep saying, social media is not society.
04:21Those people who have millions of followers get thousands of votes.
04:24Yes, so many examples.
04:25So ultimately, people on the road, people on the street will never be replaced by people
04:31on the social media.
04:33This lesson has to go through.
04:35Then, as I noted that when you give tickets to those who called RSS ki saajish, like Pashankar
04:41Singh or RK Singh, who as an IAS officer said that RSS is a terrorist organization, when
04:46they join BJP, do they express regret?
04:49No.
04:50If they said, okay, we made a mistake, then people or the volunteers on the ground would
04:54support them.
04:56So these are things which I try to bring out.
04:59So do you think this also comes from the fact like you mentioned that since 2014, there
05:04is a BJP wave, was there a disconnect into the real wave and what the actual problems
05:11of people were on the ground and BJP's understanding that as well?
05:14I would say that probably, the workers, you know, in the happiness or complacency believe
05:21that all these things are very small.
05:24Probably they did not talk to the people what the real pains were.
05:26And that is again where I come back that, you know, this two-way communication or trying
05:31to understand issues, issues in your own locality have to be understood.
05:37Modiji may be overpowering figure, that's why BJP still survived, but ultimately, what
05:42people feel.
05:43For example, when I said arrogance, I mean, you change a candidate from a particular place
05:48when a person has done a very good job, he is removed and a person brought in for reasons
05:52unknown.
05:53There is no even explanation.
05:55So the leaders need to explain why did you change the candidate.
05:58So the workers can go to the people and say why did they change the candidate.
06:01So believe that kisko bhi khada kya jeetega, that doesn't work.
06:05I talked about the change in concentration, I talked about caste reservation to be removed.
06:10I have said, sir, that, you know, we need 400 se upar ki majority humko chahiye kyunki
06:16See, what happens again, wo 400 paar, 400 paar, I believe from day one, it is for Modiji's
06:23challenge to the Kedar that we have to rise beyond this, what you have done.
06:27I never believed 400 paar will happen.
06:29I'm telling very frankly, I've said it in YouTube before the result came.
06:33And I think on TV also.
06:35And other is that this 400 paar was also a challenge to opposition.
06:39So opposition was half the time, initially in all the stages, fighting for it, saying
06:43400 nahi milega, 400 nahi milega.
06:44So they considered the victory of BJP.
06:48Beyond that, so that is one thing where you claim that you will reach a certain figure,
06:51which is not fake narrative, which is a challenge, which is a, which is a call, but Kedar took
06:56it otherwise.
06:57They said, aani wale hi hai, jeetne wale hi hai, so voters didn't go saying ho to jeetenge.
07:01Typical core base of BJP workers also.
07:02But that itself was saying till the last day that 400 paar to humari ho gaye hai.
07:08So how can somebody change the story half way?
07:11They can't.
07:12But if you see some of the graphs that how the voting changed, how the candidates, you
07:17know, the election went around, that's later stage.
07:20But to believe, the Kedar should believe that what Modi ji has done to ask you to work
07:24hard to reach there.
07:25It will not happen because Modi ji said it.
07:28Atmosphere of such, there are so many factors, but I am not getting into that.
07:32I am just saying the atmosphere is such that people should believe, workers should work
07:38to bring people out.
07:39Aise nahi aayenge.
07:40In fact, in one of the tweets I said, opinion poll bolta hai, lekin opinion pe voting nahi
07:44hai, aapko vote karne jaana padega.
07:46So that effort last, like my effort is where things went wrong.
07:50And I give an example of places also where I have gone out of way to call, you know,
07:54senior leader, junior leader saying baba kya karna hai meri aap, kaun candidate hai, abhi
07:57aage aap kya karna hai.
07:59There was no response.
08:00So unless, so where is this lack of coordination when BJP, local leader or, you know, city
08:08level or state level leader don't feel the need to respond, then how does it work?
08:13So that has happened in many places, not just Mumbai.
08:16So I just illustrated that, though that, if that is called lack of coordination, yes,
08:20that definitely there was.
08:21But as I said, that was the duty of BJP leaders to reach out and say, ba, hum ke bhaari matat
08:26karo, jahaan bola kiya na, Kerala ko coordination was tremendous, in Karnataka was tremendous,
08:31volunteers went out irrespective of which organization was there, what was there, because
08:35they had a different level of work there.
08:38So same thing happened in Tamil Nadu.
08:40Everybody came out.
08:41But where you are already in a good position, party is in a damn good position, number of
08:46people, workers and all that, if they are already working and they don't reach out to
08:49the local people to help them, then how will they help?
08:52Right.
08:53That's what I meant.
08:54That is the statement that, you know, BJP is now capable to take its own decisions and
08:59does not need Sun.
09:00But when statements like this are made, how does it, how does it seem from the Sun side
09:07that?
09:08See, what he said, I have said earlier, as a Sangha person, that and I have written also
09:13in my books, that each organization has to create its own, cater its own members.
09:17And that is why VHP is a huge mass organization, Ekal Vidyalaya has a huge number of people,
09:22Bharatiya Majdoor Sangh, Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad, all of them are huge organizations
09:26with huge subscription, huge membership.
09:30So they are supposed to work like that, BJP is also supposed to work like that.
09:32In fact, in Naleen Mehta's book, he says that BJP is now bigger than RSS.
09:37At that time, I had noted that RSS cater is different.
09:41It comes on ground every day.
09:43It has certain, you know, duty to do something every day.
09:47BJP's worker, BJP, for example, 11 crore workers, members have come to miss call out
09:52of those 11 crore miss call members, maybe one or two crore will be very active, other
09:56will be very good sympathizer, they might come on meetings, etc.
10:00So there is a difference in the two, two memberships.
10:02But still, I would say that BJP needs its own cater, we always used to say that.
10:06You cannot say that BJP, RSS will work, there is no need for catering, it's not because
10:10of larger the number, more to contact.
10:12So I would have said the same thing, it is the timing because the media will definitely
10:16pick up something.
10:17Now today you are picking up my article.
10:18If I had written the article one month back, I would have been called something else, had
10:22written one month later, I would not be even called, you know, discuss this.
10:26So there is a timing.
10:27So Nardaji sir was very fine.
10:29But it was not said at the right moment, it was not explained in a fine way, diplomatic
10:33way.
10:34So normal karyakarta of a Sangh, who reads only newspaper, has not seen his interview,
10:39he would definitely surmise that they don't need us.
10:42So that messaging was wrong, mistakenly not explained properly.
10:47Maybe it needed a little more supporting argument saying that, but we are one family, etc, etc,
10:52we support each other.
10:53Something like that.
10:54He is the president of BJP, I am not a very small worker, but as a very normal worker
10:59on the road who reads newspaper or only social media, he will feel that we don't need you,
11:04why should we work?
11:05So it was not intentional.
11:07I would not blame him at all for what he said, because this is what I also believe that BJP
11:11has to do its own work, I explained earlier also.
11:14But messaging at the wrong time, like, you know, somebody says something which at the
11:19time of election suddenly becomes crucial.
11:21How you pick up one sentence, we know, I mean, I am a media log enough to how one sentence
11:26can be twisted.
11:27I said it needed more finesse, or it need not be spoken at that particular time when
11:32everybody is in the field, nobody else, see, today attention span is very small.
11:36You pick up one sentence that becomes a whole story or mood changes, you don't read even
11:40a para.
11:41So somebody Indian Express picked up one sentence from my report and says, he said this.
11:46So immediately that becomes a talk, Mohanji talks for 35 minutes and you just pick up
11:51that Manipur did not work.
11:53That is not the only message.
11:54He said that BJP has done wonderful work for the social lab for last 10 years.
12:00He also said that negative propaganda and this kind of hate is not correct.
12:03We must temper ourselves.
12:05He picked up one sentence.
12:06So it's normal that what he said, either the timing can be wrong.
12:10Does BJP need RSS at this point of time or not?
12:13What's your own...
12:14As, as nationalist forces, as people who believe in this wonderful geocultural entity of the
12:20nation, which is ancient, which is perennial, vis-a-vis those who believe that this nation
12:24was not there, 14, 15, you know, 16 nations have been brought together by force to create
12:30a union of states or federation.
12:32This is that fight.
12:35So to assert that this is one nation, one geocultural entity, which is there for nearly
12:3910,000 years documented history.
12:42This has to be enforced.
12:43That is the only way India will remain one.
12:45For that, we all need each other.
12:47We need every small or big organization who will, you know, carry on this idea and explain
12:52the idea.
12:53It has taken 90 years for RSS to come to a stage where people start believing in this
12:58cultural nation or where you believe, yes, my nation is ancient, my nation is wonderful,
13:02my nation, different culture, but everybody, actually the same culture expressed differently.
13:07Everybody says, but has anybody explained what it is?
13:11No.
13:12After Modi ji, people have started understanding.
13:13So suddenly you realize, Tamil was very strong in Kashi, you suddenly realize Andhra is very
13:17strong about Ganga and all, you see Bengal is going to Amarnath.
13:21So these things are already there.
13:23They come out when you have the right atmosphere.
13:25So that atmosphere has taken time to build up.
13:28So naturally all the forces who believe that should come together.
13:31So it's not just BJP.
13:32I say, why not any other organization?
13:34So Sangh has created that conducive environment in which BJP was able to encash its...
13:41It also worked.
13:42For example, Advani ji became a force because he fought for Ram Mandir.
13:47He said, talked about Ram Mandir's cultural nationhood, it caught the idea because Advani
13:51ji raised the profile of that particular movement.
13:53But yes, the base remains that you try to raise the basic consciousness of the people
13:57of the country who come to a level, they say what Sangh has said is right.
14:01Sangh and BJP.
14:02There is no rift.
14:03As I said, there is a gap when, you know, at the right time, the organization, one set
14:10of organization doesn't reach out to others.
14:12There are BJP leaders who still come to Shakha regularly.
14:15There are others who don't come.
14:16But when the need comes, they meet each other.
14:19There is no gap.
14:20But of course, there is a political side.
14:23And there is a...
14:24As I said, there are people who have just joined 10 years back.
14:27Everything is looking good.
14:28They feel that we are doing well.
14:30We don't need it.
14:31It's not the first time.
14:32In 2004, if you remember, if you are there for a long time.
14:35Pranbhu Agency felt that we can work without RSS.
14:38But it didn't work out.
14:40And we paid a heavy price.
14:42So if somebody believes that it works without one, then it's a problem.
14:46Right.
14:47Otherwise, it's okay.
14:48We have to work in our own field.
14:50We can also tell what to do to BJP.
14:52And whether they agree or not is their job.
14:54Because they are on the political front.
14:56I can very grandly say.
14:57I want this law today.
14:59But BJP has to calibrate how it happens.
15:01So we know that.
15:02We appreciate that.
15:03But definitely, we will keep on saying.
15:05This is left.
15:06You have to do this.
15:07Because it's the job of the political field.
15:08But we also know that it's up to BJP to implement a certain idea at a certain time.
15:12Because it is their field.
15:14Right.
15:15But do you think there will be a point where personally as well,
15:18it will be conveyed to the BJP leadership?
15:20On whether you win or do not win.
15:22I would have written the same article even if we had won.
15:25Okay.
15:26In fact, I believe that it's very fortunate for BJP that people have given it a shock.
15:31Which is bearable.
15:32They have still won the elections.
15:34And these shortcomings or these, you know, deviations from the standard BJP style of working
15:40will be taken care of.
15:42And BJP has always evolved.
15:44BJP has always taken challenges on its head.
15:46And reworked itself.
15:48Reinvented itself.
15:50And I'm very sure they will also reinvent in this case.
15:53For example, in 1984, when BJP was formed, they talked about Gania Socialism.
16:02It was an experiment.
16:03A new kind of approach.
16:05And Sangh and old BJP people got very upset.
16:08They said, what is happening?
16:10You know, what is this Gania Socialism?
16:12What is this?
16:13In fact, Rajmata Sindhiya, she spoke against on the platform itself.
16:18So, some people approached Balasaheb Devaraj.
16:21Balasaheb Devaraj said, see, they are working in politics.
16:23They are our own people.
16:24And they know what they are saying.
16:26Let them experiment.
16:27Because it's their field.
16:28It's not our field.
16:29And then he said, in 2-3 years, Hindus will come back.
16:33And he never said anything to BJP people.
16:36And they turned around and you know, Advani ji came back to Ram Mandir, etc.
16:40An entire scenario changed.
16:42So, let them work in their field.
16:45Sangh believes that.
16:46And wherever there is a shortage, tell them.
16:48They know that too.
16:49We tell them privately.
16:51Like I said, it's written in the article.
16:54When you would tell somebody that something is not right.
16:57Or you criticize or you raise a certain point.
16:59They would say, Sharda ji, you are very sensitive.
17:01Everything is fine.
17:02Everything is going well.
17:03This is the problem.
17:04At some point, we will have to talk about succession post-Modi era as well.
17:08See, when Advani was there, you thought he was irreplaceable.
17:11When Indira Gandhi was there, you thought, what will happen?
17:14When Nehru was there, who after Nehru?
17:16When RSS, when Guruji was about to, because we knew he was going to,
17:21this cancer would take away his life.
17:23Who next?
17:24Things went on.
17:25See, humanity, the world does not like vacuum.
17:29So, vacuum will be filled.
17:30And at least in RSS, BJP, same kind of people, better kind of people come.
17:34When Advani was fighting election and we wanted a new leadership,
17:39it was Kedar, it was people who brought Modi ji up.
17:42He was not in the picture.
17:43There was Jodhli, there was Jatli, there was Sushma Chauhan.
17:46These are the people who were actually in the race.
17:48But Modi ji rose.
17:50You didn't believe.
17:51They tried to stop him in every possible way.
17:53Congress had hundreds of cases against him.
17:56So, there is enough talent in BJP.
17:59Who thought about Anna Malai?
18:01Who thought of Himanta Biswa Sarma?
18:03Yogi, how they will rise?
18:05So, they have talent, you know, whole pool of talent.
18:08When time comes, that will come on its own.
18:11RSS doesn't have to think about that.
18:13When Modi ji feels, he comes from Pacharak Parampara,
18:16he feels he is not healthy enough, he is not now,
18:18he doesn't have that energy, he will himself will hand over.
18:21I am very sure of that.
18:22I am very sure that when he feels he is not fully fit,
18:24he will be hand over the baton.
18:26In RSS, we have the tradition of Sarasange Chawla giving up his post
18:29when he feels he is not doing well in terms of health or something.
18:33So, he does that.
18:34And of course, Sangh itself has grown a lot since 2014.
18:39And somewhere this persona, the personality of Prime Minister Modi
18:45is pointed out or held responsible for this tremendous growth
18:51of the Sangh party as well as the ideology.
18:55How does RSS also view or rather how do you think
19:00this Samanvay happens with Modi ji at the top?
19:03Is he really involved?
19:05First of all, give credit where it is due.
19:08Give credit to Modi ji where it is due.
19:10The growth of RSS is not dependent on one person.
19:14His arrival definitely made RSS,
19:17I would say to you students, a kind of sexy organization
19:20where people would like to join.
19:22But RSS started growing when Saffron Terror became the real word
19:25because I have been studying.
19:26I started writing my first book when it was released
19:30when Saffron Terror was at the top of the time.
19:33Then internet came.
19:34So, I have seen this search for knowing RSS better,
19:37joining RSS after 2007-08
19:39when people said, what is RSS?
19:41Why is it being abused so much?
19:42What is Hindu Terror?
19:43So, at that time, it had already started rising.
19:46And it rose at the top by the time Modi ji came in
19:48and it was, I would say, the pressure of Kedar
19:51that brought Modi ji to the top
19:53and the historic moment when Modi ji was the right person
19:56in the right place.
19:58So, having said that, RSS has grown
20:00in the worst kind of opposition.
20:02It has grown in Kerala.
20:04It has grown all over India, even out of partition
20:06when it was at the peak of its strength.
20:08It was badgered.
20:10It was persecuted.
20:11It was forcefully tried to be oppressed.
20:13It again rose
20:14because the movement is totally grassroots.
20:17It is totally rooted
20:18to Indian tradition and culture.
20:20Bharatiyata of this entire idea
20:22will keep, you know,
20:24people keep on giving RSS
20:26that very important energy to rise.
20:29Modi ji definitely helped
20:30but it is not due to Modi ji.
20:32As I said, it became a glamorized version.
20:34People said, we also want to see RSS.
20:36Many people came thinking that RSS is the route to BJP.
20:40I know that because I worked on the field.
20:42They came, they thought, there is nothing like that.
20:44Some people managed to get into BJP.
20:46Some people left.
20:47Some people worked in RSS.
20:49A lot of new creators
20:50which has come at adulthood
20:51via this internet to join RSS.
20:54So this is a combined,
20:56you know, the work of life
20:58I would say 90 years before 2014 arose
21:00and also this social media,
21:02internet,
21:03and also lot of spread of RSS viewpoint
21:05and also clear understanding
21:07that we are a country.
21:09We are not something that was made by British.
21:12As internet knowledge spread
21:13as RSS viewpoint spread,
21:15people realized this.
21:16So all these combined
21:17have brought these things to certain stage.
21:20So tomorrow,
21:21suppose Modi ji was there,
21:22Madhavani ji was there,
21:23still RSS would have been there.
21:25As I said,
21:26glamorization happened
21:27because of Modi ji definitely.
21:29But when you come to shakha,
21:30there is no Modi in the shakha, no?
21:33So it's a boring work.
21:34I go there in the morning,
21:3512 people are playing,
21:3615 people are playing
21:37and they go back talking and laughing
21:39and you know,
21:40having gheeth and all that.
21:41There is no Modi ji there.
21:42People know.
21:43So those people who come with an idea
21:44that we will get glamorization
21:45because of Modi ji and shakha,
21:46if we don't get it,
21:47then we leave.
21:49But RSS keeps on growing.
21:51So the real work on the ground
21:52is very boring.
21:53It is very consistent.
21:54You require a lot of consistency,
21:55a lot of continuity,
21:58which will happen
21:59whether Modi ji is there or not.
22:02So if Modi ji is there,
22:03people who believe
22:04that they will get something
22:05because of Modi ji and shakha
22:06will leave it.
22:08They don't make an organization.
22:09Making an organization
22:10is the work of ordinary people.
22:11I quote many times
22:12from good to great,
22:13there is a book
22:14where he says
22:15that organizations built
22:16by normal people
22:17are not very high
22:18flying geniuses.
22:20It is the consistency
22:21of the work
22:22that makes an organization.
22:23That is where RSS wins.