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00:00In this condition of emergency,
00:02increasing the salaries of government employees by 22% to 25%,
00:06now the provinces will also follow the centre,
00:09so on one hand you will have surpluses of the provinces,
00:13but only one step that you are going to take,
00:16this is going to be an additional burden of 1 trillion rupees,
00:19minimum on us, on public spending.
00:22So does any institution increase the salaries of its employees during financial distress?
00:28This is also a pertinent question,
00:32I see it from two perspectives,
00:35one is the short-term fix,
00:39the short-term fix was that,
00:41Alhamdulillah inflation has come to 12% in May,
00:45but the average inflation has been in the 23% to 24% range,
00:49so we had to make the government employees whole,
00:54for just the inflationary impact on their purchasing power,
01:00so that's one part of it,
01:02but your question is absolutely correct,
01:05because we have to find a structural solution to this,
01:08like I will give you another example,
01:11on a lighter note,
01:13we said that we will not take our salaries,
01:18so this is a good thing that we have said this,
01:23but is it going to make a dent into the government expenditures,
01:26the answer is no, symbolically this is a very good thing,
01:29similarly this salary thing,
01:31this is to just compensate them for the inflationary trend,
01:35the real thing that we are going to do and are doing,
01:39Meher this is a very important thing,
01:41that we have to get the government out of every business,
01:46we are going to get more and more things in the hands of the private sector,
01:52and I will tell you that the Prime Minister has just taken a step,
02:00in announcing the closure of PWD,
02:03we can all argue about this,
02:07because you started with the salary,
02:09that they have such a big salary bill,
02:12that even if the department gets shut down,
02:16how much will it make a difference,
02:19and you will also be right,
02:21that how much will it make a difference in terms of salary and whatever else they get,
02:24the answer is the larger thing that they were involved in,
02:30that it is not that the government can bear the expenses of 2-2.5 billion or 3 billion,
02:35or the expenses of increasing their salary,
02:37look at the number of projects and the size of the projects that they are delivering,
02:43or rather not delivering,
02:45so client service, zero zilch,
02:48apart from that corruption,
02:50and how much was given to them,
02:53and how much was spent,
02:55that is the real cost to the exchequer,
02:57while we are focusing on whether the salary was increased or not,
03:01that is the real cost to the exchequer,
03:03so that is why I would request you to give us a few months,
03:07because now the committee has been made,
03:10and the ministers who will be involved in it,
03:14they have given 2.5 months,
03:16that all the ministries of the government,
03:20and especially where there are devolved subjects,
03:24why should we not shut them down,
03:29and if we shut them down,
03:31then we should not only look at their direct cost,
03:34but the indirect element of that,
03:36due to which there is inefficiency,
03:38due to which there is corruption,
03:40keeping that in mind,
03:43we should shut down these departments,
03:46the real delta will come from there.
03:49You mentioned the inflationary impact on the government employees,
03:52this inflationary impact will be borne by the whole country,
03:55now the government has 700 to 800 billion,
03:57how to reduce their expenses and expenses annually,
04:00you mentioned the duplicate departments,
04:02for instance education,
04:04I will give you an example,
04:06there are 18 such regulatory bodies in our country,
04:09in which the bureaucracy is drawing double salaries,
04:12for instance the Intellectual Property Organization of Pakistan,
04:154 to 5 government employees are sitting as board members,
04:20they all draw double salaries,
04:22there are costs to be optimised right here,
04:24OGDCL is another example,
04:25largest most profitable company,
04:27it also has federal secretaries,
04:29same with the Bank of Khyber etc,
04:31there are many examples,
04:32there are 18 such,
04:33they are drawing double salaries as federal secretaries,
04:35as board members,
04:36and there is no real capability in the field,
04:38no accountability in terms of results,
04:40yet they are being paid twice as board members,
04:42so there is only one pocket,
04:44from which this money is coming out.
04:46Look Meher,
04:48you know many things better than me,
04:51because you have been covering this much longer,
04:54I have just come from the private sector,
04:56this is my 4th month in the role,
04:58so what you are saying I can only agree with you,
05:01and if you have heard the budget speech,
05:05then on the guidance of Wazir Azam,
05:08the first thing is,
05:10the number of government nominees on various boards,
05:15on that I think,
05:16what I have come to know,
05:18that under rules,
05:20there is already a cap,
05:22but he has also said,
05:24that the government nominees who go on these various boards,
05:28their remuneration,
05:30a threshold will be set on that,
05:32and if these boards give remuneration above that threshold,
05:40those will go straight into the exchequer,
05:43these are small things,
05:45but these are very very important steps,
05:49in terms of getting the governance right,
05:51I have said this to you,
05:53that when you talk to Awais Lagari,
05:56it has taken him a little while,
06:00that all the boards of the disco board are changing,
06:06in that you will see that the private sector professionals,
06:09are going to dominate these boards,
06:11and in most of the cases,
06:13the chairpersons are going to be from the private sector,
06:16I say that there will be a big revolution,
06:20but this is how we are going to start chipping away,
06:24absolutely sir,
06:25because this is a low hanging fruit,
06:27which cannot be achieved in 2.5 months,
06:29this is a very big question,
06:31can you imagine that the tax to GDP of the government,
06:34will increase so much in the next 10 years,
06:37that without revisiting the NFC award,
06:39we will be able to end our deficit and loss,
06:42because the government has not made the NFC for the next award,
06:45and even after so many months,
06:47this discussion did not take place?
06:50So, today I have given a summary,
06:54in the budget speech,
06:56where we have started the discussion,
06:59from the very early stages,
07:02around a national fiscal pact,
07:05and in that,
07:06what the federation has to do,
07:08the federation has to do,
07:09we have to do it as the federal government,
07:11and in that,
07:12the first thing I am saying is,
07:13why have we kept these ministries as the default subjects,
07:16and similarly,
07:17our request to them,
07:19that where there should be an incentivization,
07:22to increase the revenues,
07:24because there are some matters,
07:26which are provincial subjects,
07:27in that we cannot take unilateral decisions,
07:30so this initial discussion has started,
07:33with the chief minister,
07:35also in terms of expenditures,
07:37what can be discussed,
07:39and what things can be discussed,
07:41see Meher,
07:42I talk very simply,
07:44because I have come from the private sector,
07:46and I have said this before in a program,
07:48and I have said this again and again in the budget speech,
07:53although I had to increase my pitch a little,
07:57because of our friends on the opposition benches,
08:02but the point is,
08:04that we have to take all the stakeholders together,
08:08because it has to be through enterprise thinking,
08:11this is not just about English,
08:13the point is,
08:14that if we say,
08:16that we are on a boat,
08:18and you tell me,
08:20not to talk to me,
08:22just see,
08:24because the whole is on your side of the boat,
08:27when unfortunately,
08:29or God forbid,
08:30the entire boat is going to sink,
08:32so this is such a thing,
08:36that we are stuck,
08:38and this is not like that,
08:39Pakistan is not such a country,
08:41in the advanced countries as well,
08:43Meher you know this better than me,
08:45Australia also struggles with this,
08:47between federal government and the provinces,
08:50so this is not something where there is dialogue,
08:53Yes, tell me.