Tom Steyer, Co-Executive Chair of Galvanize Climate Solutions, sits down with Assistant Managing Editor Steven Bertoni to discuss his bold plan to back market-based solutions to fight climate change.
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LifestyleTranscript
00:00 We have an amazing guest today, Tom Steyer, someone who's lived many lives, all of them
00:07 fascinating.
00:08 Billionaire, hedge fund manager, climate activist, author, and now climate investor.
00:13 Tom, thanks for joining us.
00:14 Steve, it's great to see you again.
00:15 Oh, and presidential candidate.
00:16 That's another thing, too.
00:17 Thanks for joining us.
00:18 It's a pleasure.
00:21 So we sat down about five years ago in the same building and did a podcast.
00:27 And I took notes, so I'm going to hold you to everything you said.
00:30 But I'm excited to have this updated interview because you had some big, wild ideas back
00:35 in 2019.
00:37 And obviously, so much has happened.
00:40 A lot has happened.
00:41 I'm going to be interested to hear what they were to see if I was right.
00:44 So first, I'm excited that you're here to join us.
00:48 You have a book coming out that is about your passion, climate change, climate innovation
00:53 and capitalism.
00:54 Tell me a little bit about this.
00:56 Well, the book is called Cheaper, Faster, Better, How We Win the Climate Wars.
01:01 And the basic point of the book is I'm trying to reframe how we think about this energy
01:08 transition because there are a couple widely held beliefs that I think are just wrong.
01:13 One of them is that we can't get off fossil fuels.
01:16 And it is true that we can't get off fossil fuels today.
01:19 But it's not true that we can't get off fossil fuels over time.
01:22 We're going to get off fossil fuels.
01:23 We can do it and we will do it.
01:25 And the other one is that somehow in climate, we have a doom loop, that we're not going
01:30 to be able to successfully combat it, that in fact, we're going to see almost unlimited
01:37 human suffering and therefore there's nothing you can do about it except despair.
01:41 That's not true either.
01:43 The truth is, this is a problem.
01:45 It's a big problem.
01:46 And it is susceptible to the exact same kind of structure of society and value system that
01:52 has made America succeed, has made us the richest, freest country in the history of
01:57 the world.
01:58 We just need to do exactly what we've done in the past using the exact same structures
02:02 and attitudes.
02:03 And we will, in fact, succeed in this transition and do something together that we can really
02:08 be proud of in addition to making a whole bunch of money.
02:10 See, I love your ideas because, A, you come at it with hope because you look at the media,
02:14 it's always saying, oh, you know, the doomsday clock is now one second past midnight.
02:19 And the doom loop.
02:20 You come out with you have an attitude of solutions and also market based solutions.
02:25 We're not waiting for some, you know, big brother, uncle, aunt to come in and solve
02:30 this for us.
02:31 The marketplace.
02:32 So tell me, what are you, how do you see this laying out with the market?
02:36 How is the market going to solve this?
02:37 Because it hasn't for.
02:39 Well, let me be clear.
02:41 We are actually doing a whole lot better than people understand.
02:44 So for instance, in 2023, last year that we have numbers for, of the new electricity generation
02:51 worldwide, 86 percent of it was renewable.
02:56 Eighty six percent was renewable.
02:58 If you look at the cost of renewables versus fossil fuels in terms of producing electricity,
03:03 they're much cheaper.
03:05 People think for some reason that renewables are more expensive.
03:08 Not true.
03:09 The reason that 86 percent of new electricity generation was renewable is because it's a
03:12 better deal.
03:13 I mean, one of the things we have to get away from is the idea that people are going to
03:16 be nice.
03:17 People are not going to be nice.
03:19 People are going to make decisions that make sense for them.
03:22 And we shouldn't be mad about that.
03:24 That's absolutely proper and right.
03:26 So we have to have cheaper, faster, better solutions.
03:29 You know, one of my best friends, who I would describe as a conservative person, bought
03:37 a Tesla like five years ago.
03:38 And he loves cars.
03:39 He's from California.
03:40 He's always had a car since I've known him and loved having it and really cared about
03:44 it.
03:45 And he'd been driving European sports cars.
03:47 And I said, Matthew, what are you doing in a Tesla?
03:50 I mean, thinking, are you trying to save the world?
03:53 He goes, great pickup, Tom.
03:54 I mean, it's got it handles better than any sports car I've ever owned.
03:57 He's saying it's a better product that happens to be green.
04:00 Exactly.
04:01 He made a decision about what was better for him, not about how to save the planet.
04:06 And the fact is, that's how we're going to win.
04:09 People are going to make decisions and say, this is a better product.
04:12 I need to do this.
04:13 This is cheaper.
04:14 So if my competitors do this and I don't do this, I'm going to lose.
04:19 That's the way we change the world.
04:21 Capitalism, profits, scale.
04:23 Niceness, nice intentions, good intentions, don't scale, won't solve the problem.
04:29 It's going to come down to money and experience and better product.
04:33 You said that renewables are growing, they're cheaper.
04:37 If you read the headlines, there's all stories like, I'm from New Jersey, they just scrapped
04:41 this whole billion dollar wind project.
04:45 If you get something in the mail, like, hey, you want to switch over to green energy, great,
04:50 but it's going to cost you more.
04:51 Obviously, EVs went through a huge jump and now they're falling right now.
04:56 Where is that kind of the theme of alternatives are more expensive?
05:02 Where is that coming from versus these realities?
05:05 Let's talk about those two points, which were wind off the shore of New Jersey and EVs.
05:11 So let's first talk about wind.
05:13 Let's face it, it's hard to get permits in the United States of America, even for offshore
05:17 wind where no one owns the land.
05:20 My 86% was worldwide.
05:23 In fact, that is the case in Vietnam.
05:27 They had no renewables in 2018.
05:30 They now have a higher percentage of renewable electricity than we do.
05:33 Are they being nice?
05:34 Heck no, they're getting a good deal.
05:37 The truth is that most of the electricity generation that is going to be built and is
05:42 being built is in China, India, Southeast Asia.
05:46 What can we learn from them?
05:48 Well, I think they're going to make very self-interested decisions, which is fine.
05:54 And what needs to happen is they have to be able to buy things that are in their interest,
06:00 that are cheap, that are a good deal.
06:01 If that happens, then basically electricity generation in the world will move to renewables
06:06 and clean.
06:07 If in fact we don't succeed in that, then we're not going to be able to get off fossil
06:12 fuels nearly fast enough.
06:13 And let me just take one step back.
06:15 This is all taking place in the context of a natural world.
06:19 I think when people talk about business, there's an assumption that the world is static, that
06:23 here we are and whatever the temperature is, whatever the storms are in Florida, whatever
06:28 the heat index is in Arizona, it's kind of where we are.
06:32 Well, that's not true.
06:34 The truth is we're in a natural world that is changing, that is probably changing faster
06:40 than the scientists predicted.
06:42 And where we can look and see this isn't like predicting the market where it's uncertain.
06:46 This is pretty easy to know.
06:48 And so what we can see is it's not like we should do this.
06:51 We have to do this.
06:52 And the question is how we're going to do it, how fast we can do it.
06:56 And that's somewhat a question of technology and costs and somewhat a question of all of
07:01 society response.
07:02 Do we as a society put our shoulders to the wheel and get this done?
07:07 Is there like a-- do you see this happening gradually as a tipping point?
07:10 Do we have to hit the rock bottom of climate?
07:12 Because obviously we've been beating this drum for 30 years everywhere, whether it's
07:18 scientists, activists, or corporations are trying to--
07:20 Well, there are two things going on.
07:22 I mean, it's absolutely typical in new technologies to go through what's called the S-curve.
07:29 So there's a time when you're not selling that much and you're trying to get better
07:33 and your costs are going down and your competence is going up and you're competing with the
07:37 existing technology.
07:39 And when the cost curves cross, it kind of goes vertical and you get to about 80% and
07:45 it flattens out.
07:46 That's the normal technology transfer.
07:48 We're seeing that.
07:49 I mean, 86% is kind of vertical.
07:51 You know, the cost curves have crossed in terms of electricity generation.
07:55 And that's really just the beginning, I think.
07:58 In terms of EVs, and you were saying, look, I think EVs grew by over 30% worldwide last
08:01 year.
08:02 So it wasn't like it was slow down.
08:04 One of the things that we-- and let's remember that the US is not the world.
08:09 In the US, we drive big cars long distances.
08:14 In most of the world, they drive small cars short distances.
08:17 99% of the people use their cars to commute.
08:21 So when we think about it, we think of it in the US context, where in fact, a lot of
08:25 the EVs in the US, I think, grow 24%, 25% last year.
08:30 The reason they didn't grow as much as people are now looking and saying, should I get a
08:34 plug-in hybrid so I never have to worry about range anxiety?
08:38 That's still a car where most of the time you're going to be driving on electricity.
08:43 I think when you look at what's going on in terms of cost for EVs, there's a sense that
08:47 they're very expensive.
08:48 The cost for EVs have been going down $1,000 per month for the last 15, 18 months.
08:56 Really.
08:57 If we keep going on that, there is about-- I think it's a $10,000 electric vehicle in
09:03 China.
09:05 That's a disruptive technology.
09:07 Yeah.
09:08 Tesla popped about 10% yesterday because they're getting back to the cheaper, low-cost one.
09:14 So the truth is, do I believe that the technologies that we have in this energy transition are
09:20 going to continue to improve and win?
09:23 Absolutely.
09:24 It's really a question of how fast.
09:25 What tech are you excited about?
09:27 What tech do you see that's going to get so cheap that it's going to make all these renewables
09:32 replace everyone's gas?
09:34 First of all, there's a cliche in the energy world, which is there's no silver bullet.
09:41 It's silver buckshot.
09:42 But there's so many different technologies in different parts of the economy because
09:45 this is really a change for almost all of the economy.
09:49 But when we think about electricity and energy, to me, the remaining issue in energy-- I mean,
09:56 solar and wind are much cheaper than fossil fuels on a per kilowatt hour basis.
10:01 Much.
10:02 What people now say in the fossil fuel industry is, OK, that's great, but they're not baseload
10:07 power.
10:08 Basically, what do you do when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow?
10:12 Which is true.
10:14 And what's happened is batteries have also declined.
10:18 I think solar and wind are down 90%.
10:20 Batteries are down 80%.
10:21 And they're expected to go down another 80%.
10:24 That's nice.
10:26 But it doesn't deal with that question of intermittency.
10:29 We believe that there will be a couple of revolutions in batteries, not just in cost,
10:34 because it's already cheaper, but in the duration that they can store electricity.
10:40 And when that happens, it's a complete change.
10:43 Because then you really-- I think we'll be going to a couple of two to three days in
10:48 two to three years.
10:49 And then we're talking about weeks and months in the foreseeable future.
10:52 It's now all of it-- Yes, out of it.
10:54 We now have baseload power.
10:56 But there's other things that we're looking at in terms of baseload power that are not
11:01 fossil fuel driven that are happening.
11:03 But my first point about Silver Buckshot is-- I mean, one of the companies that I really
11:08 love, which I talk about in my book, is a German company that's using sensors, machine
11:13 learning, and AI to basically be able to real time monitor how you make cement and concrete.
11:21 And cement and concrete, believe it or not, are 8% of world emissions.
11:25 It's a huge number.
11:26 And actually just being able to real time understand what that soup is and having it
11:32 be the best possible soup is a huge cost saver.
11:39 It pays for itself very, very fast.
11:42 And in addition, you can save up to 50% of your emissions.
11:45 So it's one of those things where if you sit there and look at it, you go, OK, this is
11:50 going to pay for itself very fast.
11:52 The EU is going to start to charge cement and concrete manufacturers for emissions.
11:56 I'm going to be able to cut that in half.
11:59 If I don't do this and my competitors do this, they are going to undercut me.
12:04 And I'm never going to sell any more cement and concrete.
12:06 So it becomes-- I mean, you want businesses where it's have to have, not nice to have,
12:13 have to have.
12:14 And where you're thinking, this is really going to the heart of what I'm trying to do.
12:18 And that's one.
12:19 You made your career in investing, especially analyzing risk, risk reward.
12:25 How do you take that mindset when you invest in climate technologies, companies, startups,
12:32 all that?
12:33 Look, investing in effect is predicting the future.
12:38 And in some cases, you get to affect it more in terms of how the process goes.
12:42 But it's always looking forward and saying, what do I expect will happen?
12:47 How do I avoid the disasters?
12:49 How do I get into the good things and try and make the good things better?
12:52 That's investing.
12:53 So when I think about this, it's exactly the same.
12:56 I mean, some of this stuff-- honestly, Steve, wondering what's going to happen to the natural
13:01 world, there's a range of outcomes.
13:04 But it's a range of outcomes.
13:06 And the idea that the status quo is going to work, it doesn't make any sense.
13:11 It can't.
13:12 There's an old saying from, I think, the 1970s.
13:16 If something can't go on forever, at some point, it's going to stop.
13:20 And what we're seeing is, look, we're in the process of heating up this planet.
13:24 It's physics.
13:25 You can't get rid of the laws of physics.
13:28 You can't fake the laws of physics.
13:30 You can't politic your way around the laws of physics.
13:32 It's just physics.
13:34 OK, well, let's have products that are better that solve that problem.
13:39 In your mind, if everything's better than the status quo out there, how do you make
13:43 your picks to back companies back to everything?
13:47 You said the status quo is not working.
13:50 So everything that's--
13:52 But we have to be-- we can't assume-- well, let me say one thing.
13:55 We don't assume policy changes.
13:56 We think there will be policy changes.
13:57 We think policy changes make sense.
14:00 But basically, what we're saying is, we want a company that is going to make money and
14:03 scale because it's making money and solving a real pain point for people.
14:08 And if that's true, then that's a company we want to back.
14:10 And of course, you want to invest-- leadership's incredibly important.
14:14 So you want to invest in companies with great leaders.
14:16 But basically, you look into the future and say, is this company going to win dominantly
14:23 in the marketplace?
14:24 And if it is, then that's a great opportunity.
14:25 And if you think, OK, if the world proceeds the way we think it will proceed, and this
14:30 is a big fat loser, you should stay away from it.
14:33 Because if the rest of the world hasn't figured out it's a big fat loser yet, then either
14:38 you'd never get into it or you can get out at a price that saves your banking.
14:41 You believe capitalism is going to save climate.
14:44 But you've also been very politically active.
14:48 You're a progressive.
14:49 What do you think about the Biden administration and their big push into climate change?
14:55 Well, let me step back for a second on capitalism.
14:58 And I'm a capitalist.
14:59 I'm an investor for my entire career.
15:03 There is no such thing as a free market.
15:05 I mean, there is a sense-- people talk about it all the time in the press.
15:09 And people in business talk about it, the free market.
15:12 Every market has rules.
15:13 I mean, I like to say, in the United States, it used to be legal to pay a 12-year-old $0.25
15:18 for a 14-hour day.
15:20 Not legal anymore.
15:21 We decided that's not good.
15:24 Do I agree with that?
15:25 Yeah.
15:26 But the truth is, did people then hire 14-year-olds at $0.25 a day?
15:31 Yes.
15:32 So every market has rules.
15:34 Even the most primitive markets have a rule about where it's going to be, who gets to
15:37 set up their stall, where, what the times the market--
15:40 It's a free market, but not a free for all.
15:42 No.
15:43 And so governments set the rules under which you can't poison people.
15:49 That's not allowed.
15:50 Did God say that?
15:51 Or did someone pass a law that says you can't poison people?
15:54 Someone passed a law.
15:56 So what we're seeing is, I think capitalism scales.
15:59 But it scales within the context that government sets.
16:03 And what I'm saying is, look, I can see a big market imperfection here, which is people
16:08 are polluting for free.
16:10 And at some point, I assume that that will change.
16:12 And actually, the Biden administration in the Inflation Recovery Act was trying to indirectly
16:19 attack that and remedy that and make it a level playing field for people.
16:26 My point is, we need to win no matter what.
16:28 I don't want to win.
16:29 I don't want to lose, saying, but if only the level playing field had existed, we would
16:33 have won.
16:34 Not interested.
16:35 Our point is, we need to win.
16:36 We need something that is absolutely better in the marketplace no matter what.
16:40 And if the policy comes in to support it, fantastic.
16:43 And if the policy doesn't come in to support it, we've got to win anyway.
16:45 Well, how would you grade the Inflation Reduction Act?
16:48 I mean, it's by far the strongest attempt by any American government to address our
16:55 climate issue.
16:56 No question.
16:57 It's a huge step forward.
16:59 But the truth is, and it's also supposed to attract multiples of the government money
17:05 into those businesses and into deploying those technologies and developing new technologies.
17:09 So this is not a government thing.
17:11 It's a government plus private sector thing.
17:14 That's the only way that that could possibly work.
17:18 Do I think that will be enough?
17:20 Look, we are-- there is a lot to be done.
17:22 And the time is actually-- you know, we're under-- this is not a limitless time issue.
17:29 This is an issue where we can see the progression of what's happening in the natural world.
17:34 And we need to move.
17:36 And we need to win.
17:37 And we need to win as fast as we possibly can.
17:39 So I feel real urgency about this.
17:42 I know the Biden administration has taken it seriously.
17:45 You know, they've done the best job ever in a second term.
17:49 Is there more to be done?
17:50 Sure.
17:51 There's always going to be more to be done.
17:52 And this is-- you know, as a friend of mine said at another friend of mine's memorial
17:57 service, if you can complete your life's work during your life, think bigger.
18:03 Well, I think the Biden administration, you know, they're not going to complete their
18:06 life's work during their administration.
18:07 I like that line.
18:08 That's a good one.
18:09 Well, it's a nice way to-- what it says is we're all a link in the chain.
18:14 And this chain started in the United States somewhere in the 18th century.
18:17 So anything we try and do to push us forward is really a continuation of what people have
18:22 done for years and decades and centuries.
18:25 In talking about people, I think the individual feels powerless in this quest because the
18:32 average person, like, sure, you can walk as much as you want, not drive, recycle.
18:38 But you're so minuscule, what you're doing, compared to these giant governments, the giant
18:43 corporations, giant industries.
18:46 What do you tell-- like, you have children.
18:48 What do you tell your children, like, how can they make a individual impact?
18:53 Again, like, not devoting their lives to it because they have to live their lives.
18:57 But like, on a normal day, what do you kind of promote?
19:01 Well, let me say this before I answer that question.
19:04 My kids and I, our whole family went up to Alaska and saw it melting.
19:09 And we made a decision as a family in 2006 we were going to address this.
19:13 So actually, for 18 years, sitting around the kitchen table, we decided, oh, my god,
19:19 this is a huge issue.
19:21 Maybe we can do something to help here.
19:22 But you also-- you have the--
19:24 I'm lucky.
19:25 You have the--
19:26 I'm privileged enough to be able to take the time and go to Alaska and see it and then
19:31 be able to devote myself.
19:32 Yeah, you can devote it.
19:33 And also, you have influence.
19:34 You have impact.
19:35 You have--
19:36 I can do-- yes, super.
19:37 But let me say this.
19:39 I see this as an all of society response.
19:43 And I like-- in my book, I basically compare it to World War II.
19:46 It's like, none of us could have won World War II either, for a fact.
19:50 But everybody had to pitch in.
19:51 And everybody did pitch in.
19:53 And they took pride in it.
19:55 It wasn't like people were like, oh, my god, I have to go in the armed services.
19:59 It was like, I have to go in the armed services or I'll be humiliated for the rest of my life.
20:03 I mean, I need to pass the test that gets me into one of those services where I'll never
20:08 be able to hold my head up.
20:10 And that was a question of people said, we have a responsibility to each other.
20:15 And so we're all going to do it together.
20:17 No one person could do that.
20:19 And any one person's-- anyone's attempt to grow a victory garden so that there would
20:25 be more vegetables for the people at home so we could send more food overseas to the
20:30 troops, no one's garden made a specific difference.
20:34 But everybody's participation made a difference.
20:36 So what I say to people is, you can think about how you run your life.
20:40 You can think about what you drive.
20:41 You can think about how you heat your house.
20:44 You can think about what you eat.
20:47 You can participate politically.
20:49 We're not going to win unless elected officials understand you can't get elected unless you're
20:53 willing to work on this.
20:54 You know, if you're not willing to support the war effort in 1942, if you think we should
20:58 like surrender, I'm not going to vote for you.
21:01 There's no chance.
21:04 And I think the third thing is this.
21:07 Not everyone's going to be a climate activist.
21:09 That's ridiculous.
21:11 But if you're a banker, you can think about who you're loaning to.
21:14 If you're an advertising person, you can think about what you're promoting.
21:18 If you're somebody who works as an electrician, a construction worker, you can think about
21:24 where you work.
21:25 I mean, one of my favorite companies is an advanced geothermal company taking fracking
21:29 technology from the oil and gas business, taking rigs from the oil and gas business,
21:36 and taking workers from the oil and gas business to do clean geothermal way down in the earth.
21:43 We're all going to get a chance to figure out what to do with our lives.
21:46 We have more control than we give ourselves credit.
21:48 And there are going to be an awful lot of jobs.
21:50 If this transition happens, that has to happen, we're going to have a shortage of workers.
21:56 So when we think about what we do with our lives, we're going to have a lot more control
22:00 than people generally think, where people feel like it's a desperation situation.
22:04 This is going to be a desperation situation for the people trying to fill up the workers
22:07 to get done the transition that we're going to do.
22:10 You mentioned the importance of politics and vote for people who are for this fight, not
22:16 against this fight.
22:17 You ran for president in 2020 as a Democrat.
22:22 What did you learn from that experience?
22:25 So the number one thing I learned running for president is how much I love the American
22:29 people.
22:30 It was so fun.
22:31 It was fun.
22:32 It wasn't stressful?
22:33 No.
22:34 I always say to people, if you think running for president is so hard, try a real job one
22:40 time.
22:41 No.
22:42 I think if you get a chance to talk seriously to Americans across the board, and regardless
22:48 of whether they agree with you or not, if you're interested in America, then you're
22:52 interested in Americans, and every American is the expert on their life.
22:56 So if you want to know what it's like to be a nurse in Las Vegas, talk to a nurse in Las
23:00 Vegas.
23:01 It's very inspiring.
23:02 If you want to understand any one of the people in this world, in this country, you have to
23:07 listen to them.
23:08 And if they'll tell you, I think you're so much-- that I'm fascinated by.
23:13 And people in this country are great.
23:16 People love this country.
23:17 They're patriotic.
23:18 I always say, we are a loud and vulgar people, and thank God for that.
23:23 We say what's on our mind.
23:25 We argue about it.
23:26 Our tradition is, we solve it and we move on.
23:30 And really, when I look at this country now, we're loud and vulgar people.
23:34 It's great.
23:35 That doesn't bug me in the least.
23:36 It's a democracy.
23:37 You get to disagree.
23:38 What I found was, regardless of which side of the aisle you're on, American people are
23:42 fantastic-- very good-hearted, very warm, very generous, and very patriotic.
23:47 I loved it.
23:48 Now, if you-- obviously, the whole theme is, America is so divided right now.
23:52 It is.
23:53 All your sides aren't listening to each other.
23:54 Did you see a different America on the road?
23:56 Or is that-- those divisions are still there?
23:57 It's just-- it's a communication, almost tribal thing at this point.
24:02 I think we're being-- for a whole bunch of technological and political reasons, people
24:06 are trying to drive people away from each other and to distrust and dislike each other.
24:12 That's the truth.
24:13 One of the reasons that I'm so optimistic and enthusiastic about the energy transition
24:19 is it is all of society.
24:21 It means we have to do it all together.
24:24 When people are engaged in it together, they will recognize how good and how strong and
24:29 how hardworking the other people in society that they had thought were different from
24:34 them actually are.
24:35 And they'll realize, look, I love team sports.
24:38 I always played team sports.
24:39 That's the relationship I like, being in teamwork.
24:42 When your teammate comes through for you, you forget everything else about him or her.
24:48 That's all you can remember.
24:49 And that's why I want to do this transition is all of society, not Wall Street, not Silicon
24:54 Valley, not Washington DC, all of America succeeding together.
24:59 That's what I want.
25:00 And that's the only way to do it.
25:01 And I think that that is a real coming together for us that-- let's remember how great-- look,
25:06 those people who you think are so different from you are 99% like you.
25:12 And they're trying to preserve the country in their way.
25:14 OK, well, why don't we just do it together?
25:16 Are you considering office again?
25:18 No.
25:19 Look, I'm really-- my job is to build a business investing in this transition as big as possible
25:27 to make it happen as fast as possible and to get great returns.
25:30 Because the only thing that, as I said, scales is profits.
25:34 People need to know, this is the way we're going.
25:36 This is what's profitable.
25:38 Get on the train.
25:40 With obviously, you're investing in startups all over the place.
25:44 Technology is going to see our way through.
25:46 You live in San Francisco, obviously the heart of so much tech.
25:51 What are you seeing with AI and climate change?
25:54 And what could it do?
25:55 Because I have to ask about AI in every conversation.
25:58 Well, first of all, AI is going to be everywhere.
26:03 It's really just the most recent revolution in information technology.
26:09 In a long time ago, like 1996, I was talking to a friend of mine.
26:13 And I said, what about the internet companies?
26:15 And he said, Tom, let me ask you a question.
26:17 Are you an electric company?
26:19 And I said, no.
26:20 And he said, do you turn the lights on in the morning?
26:21 I said, yes.
26:22 He said, good.
26:23 So stop talking about internet companies.
26:25 Every company is going to be an internet company.
26:27 Every company is going to be an AI company.
26:29 Like Exxon's an internet company.
26:31 They've got-- I'm sure they've got a huge website, and they do everything online.
26:34 Yes.
26:35 AI is going to be ubiquitous.
26:37 So it's going to be something that really dominates the way we do business, just the
26:41 way the internet did.
26:43 It's also going to be a huge energy user.
26:46 So we can see, in terms of functionality, how huge it's going to be and how much it's
26:51 going to change things.
26:52 But in terms of energy, it's one of the two major inputs to getting it done.
26:57 And we're talking about data centers-- That's huge.
27:01 --going from 2% to 20% of electricity generated in the United States.
27:05 OK, how we do that is really important.
27:07 And that we do it in a renewable way is really important.
27:11 So AI is going to be dominant, and it's going to be-- I'm optimistic about how this is going
27:18 to turn out.
27:19 Like all new technologies, it has dangerous ramifications, like all new technologies.
27:25 And so the question is, can we control those while we enable the good parts of it to really
27:29 [INAUDIBLE]
27:30 Especially the climate change.
27:31 So much of it is-- so much of AI is-- there's so many types of AI.
27:34 There is pattern recognition.
27:37 There's modeling.
27:38 There's predictions.
27:39 So much of that is what we're talking about with climate change, whether it's--
27:43 Can you do that?
27:44 Like, can we get the-- one of the things that's-- as an example, which I just love, we're going
27:51 to have to be able to measure emissions.
27:54 And we're going to have to be able to measure emissions from satellites.
27:56 And we're going to be putting together numbers of data sets together to sort of interpolate
28:04 and extrapolate to what the truth is, otherwise known as artificial intelligence.
28:10 You know, five different data sets to be able to accurately measure and verify emissions,
28:16 including under the soil, where, by the way, satellites can't look.
28:20 So that is all going to be possible.
28:23 Our ability to measure things and to put them all into one big framework couldn't happen
28:29 without it.
28:30 Now, you have to ask a final question, because you were on the campaign trail in 2020.
28:34 Any bold predictions for 2024?
28:38 Look, I'm not in the pundit business, thank god.
28:43 I will say this.
28:46 I always put my faith in the American people.
28:49 I believe they make good decisions over time.
28:53 The Winston Churchill famous quote, "Americans always do the right thing after they try everything
28:58 else."
28:59 Americans always come to the right thing.
29:01 So do I know that it's going to be a very competitive race?
29:05 I think we all know that.
29:06 But I think that I put my faith in the American people doing the right thing.
29:10 Perfect.
29:11 Tom Steyer, thank you so much for joining us today.
29:13 We covered everything, politics, AI, investing, climate.
29:16 Thank you so much for joining us.
29:19 Steve, great to see you again.
29:20 Thank you.
29:21 Thank you.
29:21 Thank you.
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