Microsoft is in its AI PC era | The Vergecast - video Dailymotion

The Verge

The Verge’s Tom Warren and David Pierce discuss the announcements from Microsoft’s Surface event, including the new Arm-powered Surface Laptop, and Copilot Plus PCs. Verge senior AI reporter Kyle Robison joins the show to chat about OpenAI’s GPT-4o demo and where we’re headed in the next few years of AI. Nilay Patel answers a question about iPads for this week’s Vergecast Hotline.

Transcript

00:00:00 Welcome to the Verge cast, the flagship podcast of Arm-Based Chipsets.

00:00:03 I'm your friend David Pierce, and I am currently in the woods,

00:00:06 in the middle of nowhere in Virginia, at an Airbnb.

00:00:10 So, the last seven days have been my wife's birthday,

00:00:13 Mother's Day, and our wedding anniversary. All in the course of a week.

00:00:17 If you get to choose in your life to do all those things at once,

00:00:20 or spread them out through the year, I highly recommend spreading them out

00:00:24 through the year. But this is what we have. So, every year,

00:00:27 we try to combine all these celebrations and just go find a place

00:00:31 in the woods with bad internet and no cell connectivity,

00:00:35 and just relax for a couple of days. I cannot recommend enough,

00:00:39 every once in a while, just finding somewhere where you can't be online,

00:00:42 whether you want to or not, and just lean into it for a couple days.

00:00:46 It's the best. But, I'm in the woods, but the Verge cast goes on.

00:00:50 We have an awesome show for you today. We actually have a lot to get to.

00:00:54 It is like the newsiest time in recent memory,

00:00:58 and there's a lot of fun stuff to talk about. Today on the show, we're going to

00:01:01 talk about two things. We're going to talk about the Surface

00:01:03 event that just happened, where Microsoft kind of unveiled both its new

00:01:08 devices, but also what seems to be an entirely new generation

00:01:12 of laptops and Windows PCs. There's a lot going on. There's some big,

00:01:16 huge promises. We're going to talk about all of it. We're also going to talk about

00:01:19 OpenAI. I know we've been talking about the OpenAI

00:01:22 event from last week, and Google Gemini, and

00:01:24 this whole AI space that we're in right now a lot over the last couple of weeks,

00:01:29 but I can't stop thinking about it, especially what OpenAI believes

00:01:32 is the future, and how we're going to talk to computers going forward.

00:01:36 Lots to get to on that front. We're going to talk to Kylie Robison, our new AI

00:01:40 reporter, about all of it. We also have a question

00:01:42 about iPads on the Verge cast hotline, because we also can't stop talking about

00:01:45 iPads. Lots to do in this episode. All that is

00:01:48 coming up in just a second, but I just heard the hot tub motor go

00:01:52 off, which means it's hot enough, which means it's hot tub time.

00:01:55 This is the Verge cast. We'll see in a sec.

00:01:59 Welcome back. We've been hearing for the last couple of months that a whole new

00:02:03 generation of PCs was about to come out. Qualcomm had

00:02:07 this new lineup of chips called the Snapdragon X

00:02:10 that were supposedly drastically more powerful

00:02:14 and more efficient, and would actually bring the Windows PC world

00:02:17 up to par with the recent Macs that run on Apple's own silicon.

00:02:21 That's a big win on its own, obviously, but also the combination of power and

00:02:26 efficiency changes more than you might think. Not

00:02:29 only do things get better and longer lasting, which is a huge win,

00:02:33 but you can also do different kinds of device design

00:02:36 when you can count on all-day battery life. You can build them with 5G and

00:02:40 other connectivity because people will actually take them away from the charger.

00:02:44 Windows tablets would suddenly make a lot more sense for a lot of people.

00:02:47 So would more portable Windows gaming devices. It all sounds

00:02:51 awesome. It also, I should say, is a thing we have been promised

00:02:55 many, many times. Qualcomm has been claiming that the next one was the one

00:03:00 for years. Everything was going to be the year of Windows on ARM.

00:03:04 I'm skeptical of all of it. Well, yesterday, that new generation of PCs

00:03:08 showed up. Microsoft had a big event to launch new services. Lots of other

00:03:12 companies announced Snapdragon devices of their own.

00:03:15 Our own Tom Warren is at the event in Seattle to catch us up on all of it.

00:03:19 Hi, Tom. Hello there. How's life in Seattle? Yeah, it's good. It's sunny. It's not

00:03:23 raining, so I can't complain. I did appreciate that the weather came

00:03:27 up like three times at the beginning of the event this morning. They were very

00:03:30 happy that it was a sunny day in Seattle. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they put us

00:03:34 all in the tent today, so the last time they did that, it was like mudslides all

00:03:37 around the tent. So I'm glad that's not happened. Oh, boy. Yeah, so tell me a

00:03:42 little bit about this event. This was an event we've known was coming for a

00:03:45 while. It's the day before Microsoft Build, but it's not Microsoft Build.

00:03:49 Give me the vibes of the event a little bit. Yeah, so obviously, we kind of knew

00:03:54 that they'd been working on these sort of ARM-powered PCs. And kind of like the

00:03:58 event sort of talked us through this sort of reinvention of Windows, which

00:04:02 is Microsoft's promised a bunch on sort of Windows on ARM previously. But it

00:04:07 does feel like it's slightly different this time, mainly because these devices

00:04:10 have got more performance and battery life, all that sort of stuff. But also

00:04:14 because all the OEMs are actually doing their own variants of what they're

00:04:17 calling these CoPilot Plus PCs. And they're actually like the top tier

00:04:22 variants of their Windows laptops. So it's not like they're just shoving these

00:04:25 chips into some mid-range laptops and just calling it that. They're like, I

00:04:29 quote, "all in" on these CoPilot Plus PCs. So the event kind of ran that down.

00:04:34 Why that matters, the performance versus the MacBook Air, because Microsoft

00:04:38 thinks that this is kind of like their moment to sort of beat the MacBook Air,

00:04:41 which is kind of interesting. And then some of the AI sort of features that

00:04:44 these new laptops enable. Yeah, there's a lot of confidence coming out of

00:04:48 Microsoft in this event. I feel like normally, I'm used to sort of the

00:04:52 Panos Pane era, where he would come out and sort of tell you how lovely a

00:04:55 device is and try to convince you of how wonderful it is and how much the team

00:04:59 cared about it. And this felt like a very different Microsoft. They just came

00:05:03 out and were like, "We did it, folks. Here's the stuff. Check it out. Let's go."

00:05:06 Was that what it felt like in the room? Yeah, it definitely felt a little bit

00:05:10 different than some of it, because the previous Surface event that they had

00:05:12 last year, it was literally days after we knew Panos was leaving, and that

00:05:16 felt like... Oh, that's right. It was kind of like a funeral to Surface. It felt

00:05:19 like Surface was dying or something. It was a really odd event. This one, it

00:05:24 just feels like the Surface is like the platform, essentially the showpiece

00:05:28 for this platform, for these new advances on Windows and ARM. And that's kind

00:05:33 of... They didn't make Surface the most important thing, but it wasn't the

00:05:37 least important thing. It was kind of just there to sort of back up that they

00:05:41 are serious about this transition to ARM. Yeah, so talk to me about the

00:05:45 Copilot+ PCs thing, because you and I have been on this show for the last

00:05:49 couple of months, I would say, relatively consistently making fun of the idea

00:05:54 of an AI PC, which just generally means nothing. But this time, Microsoft came

00:06:01 out and much more clearly tried to define what a Copilot+ PC is, and what

00:06:06 makes it different, and what makes it special, and why this kind of deserves

00:06:09 its own category of PCs. What makes a Copilot+ PC a Copilot+ PC?

00:06:16 Yeah, exactly. They previously had these AI PCs that were kind of like...

00:06:22 They were trying to sell it on this AI vision of Windows, but they didn't

00:06:25 quite have the performance, essentially, inside for them to actually enable

00:06:28 these AI features that are part of these Copilot+ PCs. So essentially,

00:06:32 what they are is... I think the way Microsoft's defined them is that the

00:06:35 MPU, the Neural Processing Unit, is a new chip. I wouldn't say it's necessarily

00:06:39 new, but it's new to Windows. A new chip that will basically accelerate these

00:06:44 AI tasks. So they've got this new recall feature, which essentially... Say

00:06:48 you're working on your laptop, and you saw an elephant two weeks ago, and

00:06:52 you're like, "Where did I see that damn elephant? Was it in a tab? Was it

00:06:56 in an email? Sure, I saw it." And then you can just type in "elephant", and

00:07:00 it will be like, "Okay, I saw this in your email." And it doesn't need to

00:07:03 see the words that you've typed, like "elephant". It will literally

00:07:07 understand that that is an elephant. So it's quite good for recalling those

00:07:11 memories from your everyday use of Windows. Very similar to a Mac OS app

00:07:16 called Rewind, which does a similar thing. But obviously, this is built-in.

00:07:19 It's leveraging the actual MPUs. It's not hitting the CPU or GPU to do this.

00:07:23 You can just do these whilst you're watching videos or processing, I don't

00:07:27 know, like Premiere Pro or something like that, and it's not going to hit

00:07:30 that performance. There's also live captions, and they showed translation

00:07:34 there, which was pretty cool. But you can't save that stuff. So say you

00:07:38 wanted to watch, listen, or watch a podcast that was in Japanese, you could

00:07:42 literally just load it up, and it would just do that live translation for

00:07:45 you. So that was pretty cool. I have to say, I thought recall was really

00:07:50 cool. And I actually thought, in general, Microsoft did a really good job

00:07:53 of not only explaining why you want lots of power on your computer, but

00:07:59 also showing the kinds of features that you can do on your device when you

00:08:04 have this stuff. The translation was a good example, where you were able to

00:08:06 have multiple languages being translated to each other in real-time on a

00:08:11 video call, which is the kind of thing you genuinely only can do on device

00:08:15 because you're sending all that to the cloud. It just falls apart. And with

00:08:19 the live captions and some of the image editing stuff, they did a really good

00:08:22 job of saying, "This is actually what you need all of that power locally in

00:08:26 order to do." And I feel like, for me, recall, which is, I think if I

00:08:29 remember correctly, all private, all on device, not uploaded anywhere, not

00:08:33 even leaving your computer, really, really smart way to show, "This is what

00:08:38 you can do when you have this thing on your computer." I found that very

00:08:41 compelling.

00:08:41 Yeah, I think recall is their flagship feature for this AI stuff. But they did

00:08:47 also show, which was kind of more forward-looking, and it wasn't a

00:08:51 complete demo experience, but they showed some of the stuff where you could

00:08:55 have this co-pilot experience in a game, like an Xbox game on Windows. So

00:09:00 there was a really cool demo. And I don't know if this came through very

00:09:03 well on the live blog, so definitely check out their demo of it. But it was

00:09:06 essentially, someone was playing Minecraft, and then the co-pilot was

00:09:10 teaching the person how to craft in the game, because it could actually see,

00:09:14 obviously, what you were seeing. So it knew. And that was pretty cool. And it

00:09:19 was like a zombie in Minecraft appeared, and they were like, "Oh no, there's a

00:09:22 zombie. You better run away." It was literally guiding them around the game

00:09:25 as if it was their friend sitting beside them. So that was a really good hint

00:09:30 at where this could go, when you've got all this on-device AI models running

00:09:33 in the background, and it can actually see everything you're doing. And I

00:09:36 thought that one was particularly cool.

00:09:38 That is really cool. On the recall one, we talked when you were reporting on

00:09:43 this, I think it was called AI Explorer was the codename that you had found out

00:09:46 about, is that right?

00:09:47 Yes, that's right.

00:09:48 We were debating whether it was going to seem very cool or very creepy.

00:09:53 Having seen the thing in action, where do you land? Cool or creepy?

00:09:56 I think it's in the middle, right?

00:09:57 Okay.

00:09:58 Definitely, because it is kind of creepy that they are taking basically a

00:10:02 snapshot of everything you do on your PC. They say there's obviously a way to

00:10:05 manage that. You can disable it per app or on particular websites and stuff. But

00:10:10 there is still the fact that it's running at all times in the background

00:10:13 and capturing everything you do. But then again, so is your web browsing

00:10:17 history. That's always captured in your browser, not quite to the degree of

00:10:22 seeing it per se. So I think there is definitely a creepiness to it, but I

00:10:27 wonder if people will see past that for the actual functionality that it

00:10:32 enables. And it's all local. I am speaking to one of their security VPs

00:10:36 shortly to find out how they're going to protect against malicious activity.

00:10:40 Because you can imagine someone getting in through some sort of floor and then

00:10:45 using these AI models to cause chaos on your PC and search for stuff. There's

00:10:50 potential there. So I am curious how they've actually secured it beyond the

00:10:54 sort of vague promises that they had on stage. But yeah, I think it's

00:10:57 definitely in between. I think there's going to be a bunch of people that

00:10:59 will disable this on the hardware that they buy. But then I think the things

00:11:03 that it enables, particularly around that sort of Minecraft demo in the

00:11:06 future, I think it's going to be worth the trade-off, right? As long as they

00:11:10 can keep it secure.

00:11:12 Yeah. I mean, the demos like that where it can collaborate with you as you're

00:11:16 using your computer is like, that's the stuff that both Microsoft and others

00:11:20 show these bits and pieces of that I'm always like, "Oh, I get it now." Like

00:11:23 that's the kind of stuff I actually want AI for, not to write me business

00:11:29 emails, but like help me do the things I'm trying to do better. And in a sort

00:11:33 of automated, proactive way, like that's pretty cool.

00:11:36 Yeah. Being assistive and sort of like helping you along your way is

00:11:40 definitely the way that I prefer to see AI go than try and sort of replace

00:11:45 you, essentially.

00:11:46 Right. Totally. So let's talk about the devices. So the two big new ones from

00:11:51 Microsoft, the Surface Laptop and the Surface Pro, no numbers, which really

00:11:56 throws me off. It's just this, no. Are there numbers?

00:11:59 They're sneaky numbers. So the Surface Pro is called the Surface Pro 11th

00:12:03 Edition, which is very Microsoft, as you can imagine.

00:12:06 It is very Microsoft.

00:12:07 They're kind of just referring to it as the Surface Pro, right? Or the

00:12:10 Copilot Plus Surface Pro, if you want to get even more Microsoft. But yeah,

00:12:15 essentially there are no numbers.

00:12:16 Okay. You've seen them both. I would say my takeaway just from reading the

00:12:21 live blog and seeing the specs and stuff is basically similar-ish

00:12:26 footprints. I think the Surface Pro in particular is exactly the same size as

00:12:30 before. And the whole pitch is like gigantic, massive internal upgrade that

00:12:34 kind of changes everything. Is that reasonable?

00:12:37 Yeah. I mean, on the Surface Pro, they've got a new OLED display model,

00:12:42 which is nice. It's good to have OLED on there. It's not tandem like the iPad

00:12:46 Pro. I think that Dell's XPS actually is. So you've got a new display option

00:12:51 there. But yeah, overall, the actual device looks very similar, but they have

00:12:56 done one really cool thing that I like is the type cover. Now, you know from

00:13:00 reviewing these for years, the whole lappability argument with the Surface

00:13:04 Pro has raged for like a decade now. And what they've done is they've

00:13:08 reinforced it. So I couldn't really get it to bounce, honestly, when I was

00:13:13 using it on a desk.

00:13:14 Really?

00:13:15 Yeah. You know how it usually flexes and you get that weird bounce? It's

00:13:19 really annoying when you're trying to write a long document.

00:13:22 Yeah. As soon as you start typing fast, the whole thing sort of feels like

00:13:24 it's wiggling underneath you.

00:13:26 Yeah. It doesn't do that anymore. It's still a very slight flex, but it's not

00:13:32 really as bad. And I tried it on my lap as well. It was the same. And it's

00:13:36 because they basically reinforced the base of the Surface keyboard. They put

00:13:40 a battery in it now, so the actual trackpad is a little bit larger and it

00:13:44 has haptic feedback and it has a Bluetooth chip inside there. So you pull

00:13:48 it away from the display and you can actually use it wirelessly. So it's not

00:13:50 like just this dumb keyboard when you pull it off anymore. So some pretty

00:13:54 cool keyboard upgrades. And you can also use the old keyboards if you want

00:13:57 to. Yeah. And that and the OLED display, I'd say, are the biggest things that

00:14:01 you would notice on the outside. It's obviously the inside is they're

00:14:04 actually Qualcomm powered now, so it's Windows on ARM. The Snapdragon X Elite

00:14:08 and the Plus in the Surface Pro, depending on which model you go for. And

00:14:12 playing around with it for a good 10, 20 minutes, it just doesn't feel like a

00:14:18 regular Windows laptop, right? Especially when everything is running native on

00:14:22 there. We really need to review these to check out these big claims that

00:14:26 Microsoft's making. But yeah, it feels super slick and fast and speedy, as you

00:14:31 would kind of expect. I don't think you'd necessarily think that this was

00:14:34 an ARM laptop, put it that way. That's really exciting. I mean, and I think

00:14:37 that sounds, as you say it, almost like faint praise, but I just want to make

00:14:41 sure it's really not faint praise. Given what we've seen from Windows on ARM in

00:14:47 the past, you could tell on the last generation Surface Pro, whether you were

00:14:52 using the Intel model or the Qualcomm model, like immediately. Like

00:14:56 immediately, you could tell the difference. And so just the fact that you

00:14:59 pick it up and it just feels like a Windows laptop is already an enormous

00:15:03 win.

00:15:04 Yeah, exactly. Like it does. I couldn't get it to like really lag, you know?

00:15:09 And all right, I wasn't really pushing it. We will like, I say faint praise

00:15:12 because we have to check this out when we review it. But from everything I can

00:15:16 see, it does look like they might have done it this time. But it really is

00:15:19 going to come down to the app compatibility. And they've made some big

00:15:22 promises about new emulator. And I think just the pure fact that these chips are

00:15:26 a lot better. They're sort of brute forcing their way through this in many

00:15:30 ways, but they're not doing it in a way that's going to kill the battery life

00:15:32 either. Which is interesting because they're making big claims about that as

00:15:35 well. It's like 16 hours browsing the web, like 20 plus hours if you're

00:15:39 watching local video. So if that actually holds up or anywhere close to it, then

00:15:44 yeah, that's going to be very competitive compared to sort of the MacBook Air.

00:15:48 Whereas usually when Microsoft says they have like a 10 hour battery life PC,

00:15:52 it's usually five hours, you know?

00:15:55 Well, and you got to see, if I remember correctly, like you actually got to see

00:15:59 them run these demos next to a MacBook Air, right? I find Microsoft's whole

00:16:04 fascination right now with the MacBook Air and the M3 chip in particular,

00:16:07 really fascinating. But just the fact that they put you in a room and tested

00:16:12 the MacBook Air next to the new surfaces is just wild to me.

00:16:17 Yeah, I spent an hour watching a ton of demos. That's ranging from like

00:16:22 Cinebench and Geekbench, you know, like the sort of the basic PC benchmarks,

00:16:26 all the way up to like, they made scripts for like doing Photoshop filters,

00:16:30 which they showed some of those on stage. And then some AI tasks. And yeah,

00:16:34 I'd say out of that hour, probably at least every five minutes, the MacBook Air

00:16:37 was mentioned. I'm not joking, I'm not over exaggerating. It was literally

00:16:40 relentless.

00:16:41 Why is Microsoft so obsessed with the MacBook Air?

00:16:44 I think because they know that they've fallen behind that like premium set of

00:16:49 devices over the past few years since Apple transitioned to the M1. They've

00:16:54 really been behind it. And Intel hasn't like got them there on battery life or

00:16:58 performance to sort of match that kind of great offering from Apple. So I think

00:17:03 their confidence is like, yeah, we're finally here. You know, we can be

00:17:06 competitive or if not better, and we can do it with all these AI sort of

00:17:10 features on top. There you go, Apple. You know, we're here. Yeah, so it's

00:17:14 definitely a new level of confidence.

00:17:16 Yeah, that makes sense. And speaking of that, actually, I was very confused by

00:17:19 the fact that Microsoft at the beginning of the event said a bunch about how all

00:17:24 the OEMs, all the chip makers, everybody's in that this co-pilot plus PCs

00:17:28 thing is, is like an industry wide move, and then spent the whole rest of the

00:17:34 hour talking about Qualcomm powered devices. What is what do you make of

00:17:38 that?

00:17:39 Yeah, they kind of did this thing that was like, oh, AMD and Intel are going to

00:17:43 have these co-pilot plus PCs, you know, soon, but not right now. So we've been

00:17:48 partnering with Qualcomm to do this. I think they're kind of, I think they're

00:17:51 downplaying a little bit their ARM transition there, because obviously they

00:17:55 want this to be all partner focused. That's the whole idea of Windows. But

00:17:58 they've made such a big effort, even in all those demos, like there was no

00:18:02 mention of Intel and AMD, you know, it was all about these Qualcomm devices,

00:18:06 all about the transition to ARM, like all about how they've recompiled the

00:18:10 kernel and done all this work in the background, so that they're confident

00:18:14 that ARM is finally going to be, you know, competitive with the Intel based

00:18:18 models that we have of surface devices right now. So I think they, they kind of

00:18:23 had to throw a bone to Intel and AMD and had to have them included, obviously,

00:18:27 in this event. And I'm not, that's not terribly surprising, but their stage

00:18:31 presence was, was very little compared to all the ARM talk that they had on

00:18:34 stage, right? It was all, all of those AI experiences were lit up by a

00:18:39 combination of these new chips. So it's going to be interesting to see when

00:18:42 Intel and AMD can actually have an answer with the MPUs that are as

00:18:46 performant. Because they're already, like they're talking, these chips are

00:18:51 45 tops, whereas the Intel ones are like less than 10 right now. So by the

00:18:56 time Intel matches, will Qualcomm then jump ahead? Like, it's going to be

00:19:00 interesting to see where the roadmap sort of pans out here.

00:19:04 I did enjoy, this wasn't the spec heaviest event ever, which I thought was

00:19:08 really interesting. They spent a lot of time doing like app demos and a lot

00:19:11 less time talking about the details of how these chips work and all that

00:19:17 stuff. But they did keep talking about 45 trillion operations per second over

00:19:22 and over and over. That was like the one spec they said like 10 times. It was

00:19:27 like, they are, they're like, our chip is so fast. And we're, we're going to

00:19:30 remind you 11 times during this event, how fast our chips are, because they're

00:19:35 so proud of their fast chips.

00:19:36 Exactly. And depending on how they calculate it, and we'll have to see, I

00:19:40 think it will be faster for AI operations than the M4 perhaps. So it's

00:19:45 going to be interesting when that roadmap shakes out. Because obviously

00:19:48 Qualcomm have had ARM chips for years and they've never been quite this

00:19:51 performant and they acquired Nuvia. And I think that is the key to why these

00:19:55 chips are different. And I mean, that's, that's the key because those Nuvia

00:19:59 chips were built by ex-Apple engineers. So it's almost like, you know, they're

00:20:05 building the Windows Silicon. So I think, I think that is the key to why

00:20:08 this all feels a little bit different. It's that the chips are actually

00:20:12 performing like you would expect them to.

00:20:13 So does all that add up to this being the moment Microsoft seems to want it to

00:20:20 be like the, the sense I got reading your reporting and from talking to you

00:20:23 about this for the last couple of months is that this is kind of a day

00:20:26 Microsoft has had circled on the calendar for two years. It's like, this is

00:20:31 the beginning of the new era of Windows. We have the power, we have the AI

00:20:35 stuff. Copilot is starting to get there. Like the, there, along with this,

00:20:39 there were, I think every OEM on planet earth announced a bunch of Copilot

00:20:44 plus PCs. Like this, this was clearly designed to be sort of the beginning

00:20:49 of an era of Windows PCs. Do you think it got what it was trying to do?

00:20:53 Yeah, I think so. I think I was surprised by some of the AI features that

00:20:57 they showed on stage. I think those, those look really promising. So I

00:21:00 wasn't expecting as much of the AI features as they showed. And just

00:21:04 coming to campus this morning, it's like, they literally have like signage

00:21:08 everywhere. It was like the new AI of the era has is here sort of thing. So

00:21:13 that they're obviously like very confident in it. And what they showed

00:21:16 and just, just playing around with the devices, it does feel like something

00:21:20 is different here. Like this is definitely different from like the 2018

00:21:24 push and definitely different from the surface RT push. So yeah, I mean, I

00:21:28 want to try them out. I want to review them next month and give them a good

00:21:31 sort of spin just to see if this is actually, you know, this can replace my

00:21:35 own laptop and see if they can really nail that battery life then. Yeah. I

00:21:40 don't know. I don't know what Intel and AMD are going to do because I know

00:21:44 Qualcomm might've delivered it.

00:21:46 Yeah. I feel like you and I are in exactly the same headspace, which is

00:21:48 like, I desperately want this to be everything that they said it would be

00:21:52 because it would be so much fun if the whole windows ecosystem just kind of

00:21:56 leveled up. But also we've been burned on this specific promise several times

00:21:59 in the past.

00:22:00 It's like, if I sound cautious, it's because of those two burn moments in

00:22:04 the past.

00:22:04 Exactly. But it does. I think if it's, if it's ever going to happen, it feels

00:22:08 like it might happen right now.

00:22:09 Yeah. I think if it, if it doesn't happen right now, then I mean, they've

00:22:13 blown it, right? Everything that they've showed and all the, all these big

00:22:16 promises, it'll be pretty crazy if, if they, it doesn't live up to that. You

00:22:21 know, if the performance isn't there, these AI features don't work properly

00:22:24 or like the battery life just sucks, then Microsoft's blown it. Right. So

00:22:28 they kind of have to have done it this time. Otherwise there's a lot on the

00:22:32 line, given the way that they've been talking and the confidence that they're,

00:22:35 that they're putting into this.

00:22:36 Totally. Yeah. I realized going in that there were a bunch of people who bought

00:22:42 iPad pros last week who were looking at the surface pro this week being like,

00:22:45 Oh, maybe I want a surface pro. And it's like, Oh, Microsoft's doing that.

00:22:49 They've done it. They're back.

00:22:50 That's true. Yeah. It's not, it's not as thin and light as sexy hardware as

00:22:55 the iPad pro I'd say. But yeah, I mean,

00:22:58 But it runs all my apps, Tom.

00:22:59 It runs all your apps that you can actually use it. Yeah. So when you're

00:23:02 processing video and you tap a notification, it's not going to kill that

00:23:06 video in the background. Like it's an actual OS. So yeah.

00:23:10 A hundred percent. All right, Tom, you got meetings to get to you. Thank you

00:23:13 for, for jumping on and doing this. I appreciate it.

00:23:15 Yeah. No worries.

00:23:16 Good luck with the rest of your stuff in Redmond.

00:23:18 All right. Thank you. I'll speak to you soon.

00:23:20 All right. We got to take a break, but actually real quick before we do,

00:23:23 you can subscribe now to Tom's new newsletter called notepad about all

00:23:27 things, Microsoft. I'll put a link in the shout outs. It's brand new and it's

00:23:30 already fantastic. All right. Quick break. Then we're going to talk open AI.

00:23:34 We'll be right back.

00:23:34 All right. We're back. We talked a bit on last week's show about the open AI

00:23:44 event from last Monday in which the company announced GPT 4.0 and a super

00:23:49 personable, maybe even flirty voice assistant.

00:23:52 Hey, I'm Mark. How are you?

00:23:55 Oh, Mark. I'm doing great. Thanks for asking. How about you?

00:24:00 So I'm on stage right now.

00:24:01 If you hear that clip and you're like, Oh, weird. That sounds like Scarlett

00:24:05 Johansson in her. Well, so did everybody else. I mean, listen to this from her.

00:24:11 Okay. Let's start with your emails. You have several thousand emails

00:24:14 regarding LA weekly, but it looks like you haven't worked there in many years.

00:24:17 And now this clip from the open AI event.

00:24:19 I see it now. You wrote down three X plus one equals four.

00:24:26 Yep. I could do this forever because the similarities are deeply uncanny,

00:24:32 but here's just one more. This is from the GPT 4.0 demo. When one of the

00:24:36 researchers wrote, I heart chat GPT on a piece of paper and then held up his

00:24:40 phone camera so it could see it.

00:24:42 Of course. I'd love to see what you wrote. Show it to me whenever you're ready.

00:24:46 Okay. So this is what I wrote down. What do you see?

00:24:48 Oh, I see. I love chat GPT. That's so sweet of you.

00:24:55 And now here's a moment from her.

00:24:57 Thank you, Theodore. I'm kissing your hand.

00:25:05 Side note, by the way, her is such a good movie. If you haven't seen it or

00:25:11 just haven't seen it in a while, do it. It's even better than I remembered.

00:25:14 And with all the context of the last few years of AI, I watched it really

00:25:18 differently this time. Anyway, other than the fact that the actual product

00:25:22 doesn't work quite as well and sounds a little robotic. I mean, the vibes are

00:25:26 very similar, both in the product in general and how you're supposed to use

00:25:29 it and the voice specifically to the point where actually over the weekend,

00:25:34 open AI pulled the voice that you're hearing here, which was named sky from

00:25:38 the product altogether. Open AI says it wasn't trying to mimic Scarlett

00:25:41 Johansson in her, which I find hard to believe for reasons we'll get into.

00:25:46 There are lots of questions here about what we've learned from that GPT 4.0

00:25:50 demo, about what open AI is up to in general and about where we're headed in

00:25:54 the next few years of AI. And to talk through all of it, I grabbed Kylie

00:25:57 Robison, the Verge's new senior AI reporter. Kylie Robison, welcome to the

00:26:01 Verge cast. Thank you for having me.

00:26:03 This is what day nine for you at the Verge as we're recording this?

00:26:07 Precisely, yes.

00:26:08 And you've already been in like 465 news cycles.

00:26:12 That is 100% correct. Maybe one more today, but yes, exactly.

00:26:17 How's it been so far? How are your first nine days at the Verge?

00:26:21 It is so fantastic. It's pure chaos. And I think a lot of people looking are

00:26:25 like, "Why are you doing all this? Are they killing you?" No, it's because it's

00:26:28 so fun and I can't stop agreeing to write stuff. So it's been great.

00:26:32 Yeah, you fit in very well in that respect. Mostly I want to talk about

00:26:35 OpenAI. There's a lot going on, but I think to me, what's been interesting

00:26:39 is there's been a ton of news the last two weeks. And the only thing I

00:26:43 can think about is that OpenAI demo. Oh my god.

00:26:46 27 minutes of just super awkward OpenAI interactions. And I can't stop

00:26:52 thinking about it. I don't know. So I'm mostly just curious. You've been

00:26:55 covering OpenAI for a long time. You've been thinking about this company,

00:26:58 you've been thinking about AI for a while. You're our senior AI reporter.

00:27:01 What did you make of that event? There were all these rumors leading up to

00:27:04 this about what OpenAI was going to do. They did it ahead of Google I/O, I have

00:27:09 to assume deliberately. There were lots of rumors. None of those rumors turned

00:27:13 out to be true. This was like this other thing. Where was your head during

00:27:16 that event? What were you thinking about? Well, I was really excited for it to be

00:27:20 this huge, huge thing. They built it up so much. So the rumors were, "It's going

00:27:25 to be a search engine that rivals Perplexity and Google. It's going to be

00:27:29 GPT-5." So when we got GPT-4, oh, it's cool. It is. How natural this is, it's

00:27:35 very sci-fi. But I did my first TikTok for The Verge. And my takeaway was,

00:27:41 "This is so flirty. Do we need flirty AI? I don't think so." Just like, you

00:27:46 know, not to throw OpenAI completely under the bus. I said the same about

00:27:50 XAI's Grok. Like, do we need a sarcastic, snarky AI? I'm not sure. Let's get

00:27:57 some other advancements first before it starts being mean and flirty. Some

00:28:02 people in the TikTok comments did not agree. These Gen Z-ers were like, "Do

00:28:04 not take away my AI girlfriend, please." The announcement, it was interesting.

00:28:10 It's not a huge leap forward. I think they definitely wanted to get in front

00:28:13 of I/O. I did talk to the CTO, Meera Marathi, in a very short briefing after

00:28:18 the launch. And I asked, like, "Hey, why today?" And she's like, "You're

00:28:22 asking because of I/O?" And I'm like, "Well, of course." And she said, "You

00:28:26 know, we didn't even know I/O was happening." I'm like, "Okay."

00:28:28 - Yeah, cool. I mean, that's just a lie. That's, like, not even a good

00:28:31 answer.

00:28:32 - Yeah. I'm like, "Okay, we're not taking the bait. All right, moving on." But

00:28:36 yeah, so it was interesting. Obviously, I went to I/O, and I thought, you know,

00:28:42 this stuff is really cool. It was a two-hour-long keynote. I was there in

00:28:46 person. Pretty brutal. But yeah, GPT-4.0, it's cool. It has a long way to go.

00:28:51 It kind of feels like the rumors in the AI reporting world is that they had

00:28:56 something bigger that wasn't ready in time. So they're like, "Here's 4.0.

00:29:00 Microsoft Build is coming up at the end of this month, so I'm kind of expecting

00:29:05 something bigger for that." But yeah, it was an interesting demo. Flirty.

00:29:08 - Talk to me about the flirty thing, because I confess, this is the thing I

00:29:11 can't stop thinking about, right? And like you pointed out in the middle of

00:29:14 it, like, this is just her. And I think Sam Altman even said, like, referenced

00:29:18 her before Meera Marati was like, "No, we're not doing a her thing," which is

00:29:21 like, again, obviously not true. They're obviously doing a her thing. I'm so

00:29:26 torn on this, and I'm curious how you're thinking about it. On the one hand, I

00:29:29 totally understand why it makes sense for these things to, like, be fun to talk

00:29:33 to, right? And I don't know if flirty is the correct version of fun to talk to,

00:29:38 but again, I think this push towards, like, if you're going to spend all your

00:29:41 time interacting with this thing, it should be enjoyable to interact with and

00:29:45 not just some, like, cold metal robot that you talk to. I totally understand

00:29:49 that. I also think that is, like, a mess. - Yeah. - And just, for OpenAI and for

00:29:54 everybody else, will cause as many problems as it solves, maybe more, and is

00:29:59 going to make all of this really weird before the technology is nearly good

00:30:03 enough to actually have any of this work. Like, her is a fun example, because,

00:30:07 like, she doesn't get basic facts wrong all the time in her. Like, importantly,

00:30:11 it's very good technology. - Yes. - It's not just, like, flirty Scarlett

00:30:16 Johansson, but very dumb. Like, that's not what they're doing. And I don't

00:30:20 know, I just cannot wrap my head around whether this, like, 11-year-old movie

00:30:25 about a voice assistant is the correct place for us to be going, even though I

00:30:31 kind of understand why we're going that way. I don't know, and I feel like

00:30:34 everybody's had very visceral reactions to it, so I'm curious what yours has

00:30:37 been. - You know, a lot of tech reporters have said, like, "Please, for the

00:30:42 love of God, can these tech executives finish the movies? Like, see how it

00:30:46 ends?" - Right. - Yeah, no, not convinced we need flirty AI before we have

00:30:51 accurate AI. And something I noticed during Google I/O is that when they were

00:30:56 demoing their similar assistants, it was on video. It was not live. And

00:31:01 versus OpenAI's demo was live, so you got to see all the flubs, and if the

00:31:06 listeners have seen Nilai break the AI product... - We'll put it in the show

00:31:11 notes. It's very good if you haven't seen it. - It's very good. I was sitting

00:31:14 in the press lounge, and they came back. They're like, "Nilai broke it twice,"

00:31:17 which is what I expected. - That's the goal, yeah. - Yes, exactly. So, yeah,

00:31:22 flirty AI. As a tech reporter, it just makes me, like, "Okay, can we do

00:31:26 better than this?" I don't want to completely drag them, because it is cool

00:31:30 that we're finally getting, like, a working Siri. I was just thinking before

00:31:34 we started this episode, when I use Siri almost exclusively as a timer,

00:31:38 because it doesn't work for anything else, I do laundry, and it's 50 minutes

00:31:43 every time, and it always thinks 15 minutes, no matter how hard I try. That's

00:31:46 how mostly useless it is, so I have to say 55. - That sounds right. Yeah. - Yeah,

00:31:50 so flirty AI, not super useful, feels purposeful, obviously. Mira said,

00:31:56 you know, "Not the case." She said, "Someone else in the audience asked me

00:31:59 that. I don't know where they're getting that from. It just sounds so

00:32:02 natural." And I'm like... And then, meanwhile, Altman is like, "Her." - Yeah,

00:32:07 he just tweeted the word "her," didn't he? - Yes, he did. So, and he said,

00:32:11 "I've been at," I think it was a Dreamforce or something, at a conference,

00:32:14 and he said "Her" was his favorite movie, and all his tech reporters were,

00:32:17 like, noted. So, yeah, I think they're trying to inch towards that reality.

00:32:22 I don't know. I feel a bunch of different ways about it. What were you

00:32:25 thinking when you saw it? - I thought it was really impressive, and I just

00:32:30 keep coming back to, like, the immediate reaction everybody had to ChatGPT,

00:32:35 which is, like, "I can't believe it's this good," which is both a compliment

00:32:40 and an insult, right? Like, it's not very good, but it is genuinely impressive

00:32:44 that it is as good as it is. And I feel like I've spent a lot of time

00:32:48 reporting on AI in the last year and a half, and trying to constantly

00:32:52 calibrate that, that it's impressive, that it's as good as it is, and it's

00:32:55 also not very good. Like, both of those things are true, and it is so

00:33:00 hard to hold both of those ideas in your head at the same time. And this,

00:33:04 to me, was like that, too. Like, I actually went back and watched—it's

00:33:07 like a 26-minute video. Everybody should watch it. It's weird and awkward

00:33:11 and delightful, but it's actually, like, it screws up a lot. Like, a lot in

00:33:16 the demo. And again, that's, like, it's fine. This is new, early technology.

00:33:19 They're having fun. This is not—they didn't promise that it was perfect.

00:33:21 They just sort of showed how it worked. But it screwed up a lot, and nobody

00:33:25 talked about it, right? Everybody came to the end of that thing, and all

00:33:28 over the internet, the immediate reaction was basically, like, "OpenAI

00:33:31 just destroyed all of the AI competitors forever. It is leaps and

00:33:36 bounds ahead of everybody else. This is the only thing that there is

00:33:39 forever and ever." And I just don't think that's true. Like, it's cool,

00:33:44 and it's a good demo, and the fact that it feels at all like a person and

00:33:49 does convincing-sounding, like, ums and laughs, and—

00:33:52 - Yes.

00:33:53 - What was it? He showed the, like, "I, I heart GPT-4.0," and it was like,

00:33:58 "Oh, that's so sweet." Like, that is both impressive and nothing simultaneously.

00:34:03 - Exactly. Exactly. I think a really good example of that, too, it's like an

00:34:08 OpenAI effect, is with Sora. People are like, "This has just put all of these

00:34:12 text-to-video AI companies out of business." And people like to say they

00:34:16 launched it, but neither of us can use it. It's still in demo mode, so, you

00:34:20 know, people are like, "Wow, OpenAI destroyed everyone." It's, you know,

00:34:23 this technology is not even out yet, and clearly it has a long way to go when

00:34:29 you see it breaking in demos. So, yes, it's very hard to hold both of those at

00:34:33 the same time, and day nine at The Verge, I'm still figuring out how to balance

00:34:37 that.

00:34:37 - It's tough. I'm curious—I think the Sora thing is actually an interesting

00:34:40 example, because OpenAI was perceived to have this big lead, right? Like, it

00:34:44 kicked off a lot of this stuff with ChatGPT. It has been the company we have

00:34:47 talked about the most as we talk about AI. But now, like you said, we're in

00:34:51 developer conference season. Google just announced, I would say, in a

00:34:54 significantly more polished and less interesting way a lot of the same stuff

00:34:59 that OpenAI and ChatGPT have been doing for a while. Microsoft today, as you're

00:35:04 hearing this, is presumably going to launch some of the same stuff,

00:35:07 potentially with its own technology. Apple is likely to do some of the same

00:35:11 stuff, potentially with OpenAI. Anthropic is out here doing stuff. There's just a

00:35:14 million competitors now. So I feel like one thing I've been thinking about, and

00:35:17 I'm curious how you're thinking about this as you try to sort of map out this

00:35:22 space in your mind. Where is OpenAI in the AI world right now? Is it still

00:35:27 winning the race, does it feel like?

00:35:29 - In the hype, perhaps.

00:35:31 - Fair, yeah.

00:35:32 - They get a lot of hype. Rightfully so. They do deliver a lot of mind-bending

00:35:36 sci-fi kind of stuff. And that's part of why I joined this beat, because, wow,

00:35:40 I loved reading sci-fi books. This is all very weird and fun.

00:35:43 - Totally.

00:35:44 - I was speaking to someone at a major AI company who said that essentially,

00:35:48 this year you're just going to see them leapfrog over each other as they all go

00:35:53 towards the same thing. They're all sort of training models in the same way,

00:35:58 they're all trying to deliver the same products. So it's hard to say, like,

00:36:02 tomorrow things can change. This beat, this technology moves so fast. I felt

00:36:08 this way when Sora came out, because I had just interviewed the CEO of Runway

00:36:12 for a piece.

00:36:13 - What's Runway?

00:36:14 - Runway is a text-to-video startup, AI-generated startup. And they helped

00:36:21 create everything everywhere all at once. So some of the AI tech was used in that.

00:36:25 So they're a very cool company. And I thought when I saw their demo, this is

00:36:29 sci-fi and cool. But then Sora came out and I was like, "Oh my God, this is crazy."

00:36:34 And I sent it to the Runway CEO and he was like, "Welcome to our world." Like,

00:36:37 things change so quickly every day. So how is AI in the race? Like, where are

00:36:44 they in the race? They're still leaps and bounds ahead of maybe someone like

00:36:49 Amazon. But things can change at any point. And I think we're going to see

00:36:53 that a lot this year.

00:36:54 - Yeah, I do. I've come to think that that is why it's so chaotic, is because

00:36:59 there is this sense that this is like a land-grab moment, and it's all happening

00:37:03 so fast that you actually still kind of can catch up. Like, I remember a year

00:37:08 ago hearing stories from people that were like, "Oh, only a few companies are

00:37:12 going to be able to do this. Training the models is so expensive and so hard,

00:37:14 it's not going to work." And I think there's some truth to that, but also

00:37:17 there is so much open space in this market right now, and there's so much

00:37:21 money in it that it feels like we're probably at least a couple of years away

00:37:25 from any of this feeling at all settled. And so if you're a company that is

00:37:29 like, "We want to find a place to make a lot of money very quickly, and we kind

00:37:32 of think we can win because no one really has yet," this is probably the

00:37:36 place to do it, for better and for worse.

00:37:38 - Definitely. I agree.

00:37:39 - So you mentioned all of these companies sort of working towards the same

00:37:43 thing, like that the North Star is coming into view. What do you feel like

00:37:46 that thing is that everybody is pointed towards?

00:37:48 - You know, as an avid VergeCast fan and listener, I've been hearing you talk

00:37:53 about hardware in your ears, and I think it was Meta, a scoop came out from the

00:37:58 information about Meta doing headphones for AI. Yes, I thought... I was at a

00:38:04 South by party, and we were going around asking questions about technology, and

00:38:08 something I said that's way ahead of its time is hardware, like this AI

00:38:11 hardware, which turned out to be true. That was a couple months before we saw

00:38:15 the R1 and the HumanePin. Something that was really shocking to me as I joined

00:38:18 this beat is how much these AI companies are investing in robotics and bringing

00:38:23 this AI into a physical plane, because I thought that that's way off. We're not

00:38:28 going to be there anytime soon, but they are seemingly investing quite hard

00:38:32 into... Like, you have the Ray-Ban Meta, the Meta Ray-Bans. It looks like Sam

00:38:36 Altman is doing something with LoveFrom, which is Johnny Ives' startup. So,

00:38:42 where is this headed? I think we're going to see more of those conversational

00:38:45 AI assistants. We have what we saw at Google I/O. I would kind of love this

00:38:51 world where AI is doing everything for me, because I have too many emails and

00:38:54 too many notifications. But I'm also pretty torn on how they're using my data,

00:38:59 obviously. But yeah, so I think we're going to see more advances in hardware.

00:39:05 I'm so surprised to hear you say you think hardware is the thing. It is music

00:39:09 to my gadget-loving ears. But I've been wondering at this moment, after Humane

00:39:15 failed so badly and Rabbit failed so badly, and those companies aren't dead,

00:39:19 and this stuff moves fast, and my Rabbit R1 updates every other day at this

00:39:23 point, and it's ridiculous. But that one particular version of that kind of

00:39:28 thing is just clearly not going to work, right? And I think it was very telling

00:39:32 to me that that OpenAI demo, they're just sitting there talking into a phone.

00:39:36 - Yes.

00:39:36 - And I saw a bunch of people pointing that out, that this is actually the way

00:39:41 that we do this, is we sit here and I hold my phone in my hand and I talk to

00:39:44 it. And that is the interface for AI that we are doing right now. And I have a

00:39:48 lot of theories about why that's not the case forever, but I did kind of wonder,

00:39:52 like, are we going to put off this dream for five years in order to let some of

00:39:57 that stuff get better, and then we'll worry about the hardware, because phones

00:40:00 are great and they'll get us where we need to go. But I have to say, I find it's

00:40:03 very exciting to me that these companies are still buying into the idea that

00:40:07 hardware is part of the equation, if maybe not the whole thing, at least not

00:40:12 for now.

00:40:12 - See, this is where you know a lot about this, but I was surprised,

00:40:17 obviously, that they're doing anything in hardware that they still think that

00:40:20 this is the case, because the HumanePen and the R1, as nifty as they seem to be,

00:40:25 I kind of think they're just destined to be in drawers collecting dust and not

00:40:30 really the next big thing. But I'm wondering if you have any tinfoil hat

00:40:34 theories about it being an iPhone on stage, because I thought, you know, there

00:40:37 is, for the listener, there's reports that OpenAI and Apple are going to do

00:40:41 this deal where chat GPT is integrated into the iPhone, which everyone's like,

00:40:46 "Oh my God, once again, Siri might work. That could be great." I do see the

00:40:50 future just... I mean, who doesn't want to just carry their iPhone instead of

00:40:54 multiple devices, like you've mentioned? When I say hardware, just as you've said

00:40:58 on the Verge cast, headphones, glasses, I think you said you're not into the

00:41:02 glasses idea. I wear glasses, so it seems perfect to me.

00:41:05 - I think if you wear glasses, it is like a perfect, obvious place to go. For me,

00:41:10 like, I have the Meta Ray-Ban glasses, and my problem is, I don't know how long

00:41:15 it takes. This is just going to be David complains about wearing glasses for a

00:41:17 minute. But my problem is, how long does it take to wear glasses before you stop

00:41:22 noticing that you're wearing glasses? Because I have these, they have clear

00:41:25 lenses, they're transitions, they're actually really useful. I like having them

00:41:28 on all day, but I never stop noticing that I'm wearing glasses, and it drives

00:41:31 me kind of nuts. And part of that is because they're heavy, but part of that,

00:41:34 I think, is also just like, it's going to be hard to convince people who don't

00:41:37 wear glasses to wear glasses. But maybe I just need to wear them longer. Like, do

00:41:41 I just need to put these on for three days, and I'll get used to it?

00:41:44 - Well, it's taken me about 20 years of wearing glasses, to be fair. So I don't

00:41:50 even notice them on my face. But, well, the answer to that is, if Meta makes this

00:41:54 earbud push, I don't know if you read the article, but they're still working out

00:41:57 some of the kinks, reportedly.

00:41:58 - Well, because it was earbuds with cameras in them, right? Which is just the

00:42:02 wildest idea.

00:42:02 - But you feel like, they're like, found out that if you have long hair, the

00:42:06 cameras are going to be covered, because obviously. And one of my favorite parts

00:42:10 is that they're figuring out how to stop it from being too hot, which is, I think,

00:42:14 something that was experienced with the HumanePen, is that people were like,

00:42:17 "This is getting really hot." So, you know, catching fire in your ears doesn't

00:42:21 sound like a great product. I hope they work that out, especially for you, since

00:42:25 you can't wear glasses.

00:42:25 - Yeah. I'm bullish on the idea of headphones being the next thing. But again,

00:42:29 it's partly just as a conduit to your phone, which I think works fine.

00:42:32 - Exactly.

00:42:32 - But I want to go back to your point about the iPhone, because one of the

00:42:35 things that OpenAI, I think this was Sam Altman who said it, that there's a new

00:42:40 chat GPT app for the Mac. And there were a lot of people who I would say

00:42:44 reasonably asked, "Where's the Windows app? Microsoft owns an enormous

00:42:48 percentage of your company. You have been partners with them for forever. Like,

00:42:52 what the hell?" And I think it was Sam, right, who just said sort of offhandedly,

00:42:56 like, "Oh, Mac is just where our users are." And then there's an iPhone on

00:42:59 stage. And it's like, how many conspiracy theories should I read into those two

00:43:04 facts? You tell me.

00:43:04 - You know, okay, my tinfoil hat is that there's beef. I've been told that it's

00:43:09 not necessarily true, not by anyone, like just from coworkers. From Tom. Tom was

00:43:14 like, "I have opinions about this." But I just think that there's beef. I was

00:43:20 covering OpenAI during the ouster, the meltdown. And I'm just imagining Satya

00:43:25 during his Thanksgiving week, like, "Damn it. Why do I have to deal with this?

00:43:29 He's on Pivot. He's on, like, CNBC." So I think what we're seeing with inflection,

00:43:36 them bringing in inflection, it seems like there's sort of this potential Apple

00:43:40 deal. It feels like there's this decoupling because both are realizing that

00:43:44 they've relied so much on the other and that it's like a codependent

00:43:49 relationship. They're like, "Maybe we should take some time apart," is where I

00:43:52 see this going. Especially with the iPhone on stage, the Mac app, it feels

00:43:56 like there's a lot of signs, but that's just my tinfoil hat for now.

00:44:00 I do think it is generally true that companies do that kind of stuff on

00:44:04 purpose. I think it's a thing that I have learned over the years is that you

00:44:07 want to just think, "Oh, they just brought up their phone and did it." And

00:44:10 it's like, no, even the stuff that looks like it's not thought through and

00:44:13 rehearsed is usually pretty thought through and rehearsed and is not an

00:44:17 accident.

00:44:18 Exactly.

00:44:19 There was a conversation about what phone they would use for that demo. I'm

00:44:22 very confident about that fact. To your point, part of the reason I find this

00:44:26 space so fascinating right now is it feels like that uncoupling you're

00:44:29 talking about is literally happening right now in real time at insane speeds.

00:44:34 Yes.

00:44:35 Between Google I/O and WWDC, which is essentially what? Four weeks, we are

00:44:40 going to potentially completely upend the economics of the AI industry. It's

00:44:46 insane. You think about what the Google search deal has done for Apple and all

00:44:51 the regulatory stuff that that has caused and the amount of money that

00:44:53 changes hands. If you put something like that into the iPhone through OpenAI,

00:44:58 it blows up that whole industry in a crazy way. Or if they just randomly pick

00:45:01 Anthropic, which to me is the most chaotic answer, and I would love for that

00:45:05 to happen.

00:45:05 Delicious, yes.

00:45:06 Just go open source. Be like, "We went with meta. We did llama. Apple Siri

00:45:11 powered by llama and just blew up the world." It'd be amazing. But it just

00:45:14 feels like all of this was starting not to settle but to be understandable. You

00:45:20 kind of knew where everybody was and what they were working on. And now it

00:45:23 feels like between all these relationships, and I think especially with

00:45:26 Apple, all of the balls are up in the air again in a really interesting way.

00:45:31 Yes. And something I've been thinking about a lot is sometimes these AI

00:45:35 researchers are like, "We're building GPT-5 and it's hard to predict what it's

00:45:39 going to do." It's hard to predict what any of this is going to do. And that's

00:45:42 strange as a reporter and just a human in this world. We don't know how this is

00:45:47 going to change our lives at any point.

00:45:49 Do you think that's part of why they're leaning in on the flirty personality

00:45:54 side of it? Because if it's delightful, it doesn't matter?

00:45:58 Yes.

00:45:58 That having fun with it becomes the point and not the "Is it any good at

00:46:02 tasks?" which is what they want to get to eventually.

00:46:05 I've heard this point before. And starting as an AI reporter, people told

00:46:09 me not to anthropomorphize the technology because then it takes the blame off

00:46:16 the company and they can blame the AI. So I'm so cognizant of that as I

00:46:20 report. And then they come out with flirty AI and it's like, I'm confused.

00:46:26 Because I think OpenAI also said at some points, "It's tech. It's not

00:46:31 human." And we saw that with the Google guy who was like, "This is real and

00:46:35 it's human." And so to see all of that and then go, "Here's your flirty AI

00:46:43 girlfriend," like her, it feels strange. But yes, I do think it's an

00:46:48 interesting critique to have. Like, "Look over here. This is fun. Don't

00:46:52 pay attention to how it barely works," I think is part of the point.

00:46:56 Yeah, I agree. I will say, by the way, that the New York Times has

00:47:00 cornered the horny AI beat. So we're going to have to find something else

00:47:04 for you to do. I'm really sorry. You were too late to the game for the

00:47:07 horny AI beat. It's just, you can't have it.

00:47:09 I was wondering if I could say this on The Verge cast. This is a huge day

00:47:13 for Kevin Roos. I forgot to message him about it. He's going to have 10

00:47:16 more girlfriends by the time we finish this.

00:47:18 Kevin Roos, vindicated every day. It just gets better and better to be

00:47:21 Kevin Roos. Kevin, we love you. Come on The Verge cast.

00:47:24 One more thing before I let you go. You mentioned the brief Sam

00:47:28 ouster. And the one other bit of OpenAI news last week was that Ilya

00:47:33 Sutskever, who was a big part of that story, is leaving OpenAI for good.

00:47:39 What do you make of that story? What do you know about what's going on

00:47:41 there?

00:47:41 Oh my God. That was about 4pm while I was at Google I/O. And I was like,

00:47:45 "Oh my God, please, no more news, please." Yeah, that seemed to have

00:47:51 caused other people to leave OpenAI as well. The sort of Ilya cult inside

00:47:55 of OpenAI. I don't know. I think I'm really hoping we get some fun

00:48:00 discovery, maybe from the XAI lawsuit against them, to figure out what

00:48:05 went down. Not to be totally off course, but when the government is

00:48:09 deciding to ban TikTok and everyone's like, "Where's the receipts? What

00:48:12 happened?" Similarly here, what is happening at OpenAI that caused all

00:48:17 this drama and now Ilya is leaving? And it all feels very strange. My

00:48:22 thoughts are we need a lot more information. I think that is sort of

00:48:27 owed as this changes people's lives and how they interact with technology.

00:48:32 The meme is, "What does Ilya know? Where's Ilya?" I think we deserve some

00:48:37 answers there. I don't think we're going to get them from OpenAI. We're

00:48:39 going to get them from great AI reporters who dig into it. But it's

00:48:44 strange. It's really strange.

00:48:45 I would think the most simple way to read it is that divide that everyone

00:48:52 sort of ascribed the issues to, but then kind of waved off was the doing

00:48:57 AI for good versus doing AI for profit. The fact that not only did Ilya

00:49:02 leave, but then a bunch of people, like you said, in the Ilya cult also

00:49:06 left, suggests to me that that divide or whatever the divide was still

00:49:11 exists. And there was some reporting that said Ilya basically never came

00:49:14 back to work after all of this. And so it definitely suggests to me that

00:49:18 whatever happened last fall is not done happening. Like Sam won in whatever

00:49:23 that looks like. But whatever is going on inside of that company seems to

00:49:28 still be going on inside of that company.

00:49:30 I agree. I think that rift is still there. The reporting suggests that it

00:49:34 was like what EAC versus the D-cells, people who want this to move fast and

00:49:38 people who want this to be a research lab that's for good. I think that rift

00:49:43 is still there. And I think that's something you're going to continue to

00:49:46 see in this AI race. I think the people who want to make money are going to

00:49:50 continue coming out on top as we see here, though.

00:49:53 Yeah. I mean, as of right now, I think just thinking about Google I/O, it's

00:49:57 like, why did they make any of these choices? And the answer is like, oh,

00:49:59 because there's so much money in it right now, right this minute. There's so

00:50:03 much money in it. And will there be forever? Who knows? But there is a lot

00:50:07 right now and it is making everybody do truly wild stuff.

00:50:10 Yes, exactly that.

00:50:12 Fair enough. All right. Well, we're going to have to have you come back on

00:50:14 when we get more stuff from Apple and build and everything. So welcome to

00:50:19 hell. And by hell, I mean the Vergecast. Kylie, thank you for being here.

00:50:23 Thank you.

00:50:23 All right. We got to take one more break and then we're going to talk

00:50:26 iPads on the Vergecast hotline.

00:50:28 [Music]

00:50:37 All right, we're back. Let's get to the hotline. As always, the number is

00:50:40 866-VERGE-11. The email is vergecast@theverge.com. Send us all of your

00:50:45 questions. We've gotten a lot of iPad questions, and I think at some point

00:50:48 here, we're going to stop answering iPad questions. But we try to do at

00:50:51 least one on the show every week. And at some point, we'll stop talking about

00:50:54 iPads. But this week, we have a question about iPads, and it comes from

00:50:58 Clifton.

00:50:58 Hi, this is Clifton from Tacoma, Washington. I was just listening to the

00:51:04 case for the iPad Pro podcast. And in your comparison to the iPad and the

00:51:09 MacBook, I was wondering, do you think that the majority of that want for

00:51:13 macOS on the iPad would go away if Apple just made a touchscreen MacBook?

00:51:18 Also, on the same token, do you think that if they made a two-in-one, that

00:51:22 the work case for Pros on the iPad would go away, and it would probably

00:51:26 just go back as a media consumption device? I think it's similar to Apple

00:51:31 thinking they know what customers want instead of actually doing what

00:51:35 customers want. Thanks. I appreciate it.

00:51:37 So there's like a big thinky thing at the end there that I kind of want to

00:51:41 ignore for now. Neelai Patel is here. Hi, Neelai.

00:51:44 Hey.

00:51:44 We've talked around this for two weeks and also like 10 years. So let's just

00:51:49 talk about this. What do we want from Apple is I feel like basically the

00:51:53 question being asked here. There's the iPad, there's the MacBook, and

00:51:56 somewhere in the middle, there is this idea of like a perfect device that

00:51:59 would solve all of our problems. What is it?

00:52:02 I think it's an iPad that doesn't have a totally restricted application

00:52:06 model. That's the problem. The problem is not that it doesn't run macOS.

00:52:09 What macOS represents to people is freedom. I can just use this thing like

00:52:14 a computer and developers can show up and fill the gaps that Apple has left

00:52:18 open. You cannot do that on an iPad. So it's just whatever Apple wants you to

00:52:24 do. And if they would just let go, I think these things would evolve on

00:52:29 very different trajectories and they just won't let go, which I guess comes

00:52:33 back to what do we want Apple to do?

00:52:36 Well, I think I largely agree. Like I got a bunch of crap on threads because

00:52:40 I posted something to the effect of like, I agree that I don't want huge

00:52:44 sweeping changes to the iPad, but it would be nice to be able to put

00:52:47 Windows where I want them to. And a bunch of people are like, you can put

00:52:49 Windows wherever you want. And I'm looking at right now, I can see nine

00:52:52 different apps on my Mac right now. I can see them all. And that is not how

00:52:56 it works on the iPad. And there are like a million little things like that to

00:52:59 me. But the evolution thing, I'm curious how you think about it. Because I

00:53:03 think the case a lot of people would make is that if you just let both of

00:53:06 these things kind of be everything, that eventually they would just crash into

00:53:10 each other and the iPad and the Mac would essentially be the same thing.

00:53:13 But you don't think that's the case?

00:53:14 I don't. I think about a lot of iPad use cases that I see that I think are

00:53:18 really interesting. I'm married to a lawyer. Some lawyers show up at

00:53:22 meetings with iPads just to sign contracts and get through them. You don't

00:53:26 need a Mac laptop for that. You don't even need the keyboard case for that.

00:53:30 Right. And also the fact, by the way, that it lies flat on a desk or table

00:53:34 is actually really important. Like I was thinking about this just form

00:53:36 factor wise, right? Like if you just put a touch screen on the Mac, does it

00:53:39 suddenly solve all of your iPad problems? And like, no, because drawing

00:53:42 like that sucks. Signing things like that sucks. Like having a thing that

00:53:46 just lies down like a piece of paper on a table does change things. I think

00:53:50 you're right.

00:53:50 I will note that you have to put a case on some of these iPads to get them

00:53:54 to actually lie flat. But you know, I agree with you. There's just a bunch of

00:53:57 places where you want a computer in a tablet form factor that is where the

00:54:01 interfaces natively touch. Great. Again, we get notes from people who are

00:54:05 like interior designers and architects who are like, this thing is my

00:54:08 computer. I walk around taking pictures with it and showing people things.

00:54:12 And drawing on it all day long. And I killed a battery in my head every day,

00:54:16 which is admittedly not so hard to do, but there's just a world of use cases

00:54:21 that way. And then there's a world of use cases for the laptop form factor.

00:54:24 And I think the problem is Apple thinks the form factor is important and not

00:54:30 the use cases. So they're like, we'll just make it a laptop. And now it's a

00:54:34 laptop replacement. And I think most people are like, well, I use my laptop

00:54:37 for all these things and it can't do those things. Right. And then I, I,

00:54:41 this is just me imposing a belief on Apple. I think Apple wants computers to

00:54:47 be easier than the market wants them to be. You know, like people, you give a

00:54:51 kid a laptop, like crazy stuff starts happening. Yeah. Right. Like they, they

00:54:56 start to expand on the boundary of what you can even do with some of these

00:54:59 applications. That's really cool. I've seen entire graphic design businesses

00:55:05 that have existed by teenagers using the Instagram create mode in ways that no

00:55:10 Instagram product manager ever thought that thing would be used. That's the

00:55:14 beauty of computers. And to whatever extent that has not happened on the

00:55:18 iPad, I think that's the tragedy. And I think it's because of the restrictions

00:55:22 in the operating system. Yeah, I, I tend to agree, but I think something you

00:55:25 said at the, at the very beginning of this, I think is, is very striking,

00:55:28 which is the assumption that the best version of this thing is closer to an

00:55:32 iPad that does more stuff than it is to a Mac with a touchscreen. Right.

00:55:37 Cause I think like, if you just to boil this question all the way down, it's

00:55:39 like, does a Mac with a touchscreen solve all of our problems? And I think

00:55:43 the answer is clearly no. And I'm not even sure it solves many of our

00:55:47 problems. Like I actually, I look at my Mac and I'm like, I don't know how

00:55:50 often I want a touchscreen on this thing. And I think to me, when I look at

00:55:53 the iPad, the best version of that is so much more interesting than kind of

00:55:58 the next version of a Mac. If that makes sense. Well, I'm confident the

00:56:03 criticism we will get, because you said that is for a bunch of windows people

00:56:06 who use touchscreens on their windows PCs all day long. And they're like,

00:56:09 this is great. Sure. Actually being able to, I think Tom Warren has

00:56:12 published a version of this piece. We've had this conversation for so long.

00:56:15 I can't tell you if it was a decade ago or yesterday, Tom Warren published,

00:56:19 like touching the screen on a PC is pretty good. Cause we've been talking

00:56:23 about it for a long time and it is pretty good. The people who use computers

00:56:26 that way, they get used to it. They like it. To me, it's, it's really just

00:56:30 about the application model. And in particular on the Mac, because the web

00:56:34 browsers are so good and you can run different web browsing engines and

00:56:39 Chrome and Safari and whatever else, there's a richness to the experience

00:56:42 that you just get. You can just have a lot of the latest things on a Mac

00:56:46 because all of the latest things tend to run in the web browser. All of the

00:56:50 AI in the world is happening in web browsers, right? You cannot do that on

00:56:54 iPad. Like the web browser is still pretty much mobile Safari. They fake it

00:56:57 in different ways. And it's just that it's that right. It's Apple has just

00:57:01 restricted a bunch of stuff, maybe to protect Apple's business model, maybe

00:57:05 because they have an idealistic vision of what an iPad user should do or how

00:57:09 they should work or how easy it should be or to keep you safe or secure,

00:57:13 whatever you want to believe about why this has happened, it has happened. And

00:57:16 I think those are the limits that people keep bopping up against and saying,

00:57:20 Oh, just let this be a Mac. Cause the Mac represents those limits going away.

00:57:24 And I really do think you can see it, you know, on other kinds of tablets

00:57:29 that if you let that form factor evolve, it will head towards a different place.

00:57:34 Like, I think it'd be really interesting if the solution to the input problem,

00:57:38 especially with all the AI we have now, isn't just put a keyboard on it.

00:57:41 Like we, we, we just haven't like tried because we are like, maybe the, maybe

00:57:47 everything will just, you know how like everything evolves into be a crab. It's

00:57:51 like everything is evolving to be a laptop again. And like, I don't know,

00:57:53 maybe there's some other ways to do it. Well, yeah. And that's the thing. I

00:57:55 think like when people have asked me over the last few weeks, like, why are

00:57:59 you so hung up on the idea that Apple should or could or ought to make this

00:58:03 thing more like a laptop? I just find myself wanting to hold the thing up

00:58:06 with the magic keyboard and be like, because Apple made it a laptop. Like

00:58:10 the two accessories this company has invested in are a pencil, which makes

00:58:15 perfect sense and is extremely iPad-y. And I actually think it's like iPad

00:58:18 plus pencil is by far the most compelling case for an iPad in every way you can

00:58:24 imagine. Or it's a laptop. Yeah. Like they just, it just looks like a laptop.

00:58:28 It acts like a laptop, but the Gmail app is worse. Like that's just, that's the

00:58:32 difference. And I'm sort of with you in that sense, but like to the Windows

00:58:37 point, right? The Surface rhymes with an iPad. I would say almost more than it

00:58:42 rhymes with a Mac, right? Like it runs Windows and it can do all the stuff, but

00:58:45 in terms of like the spirit of that device, it's so much an iPad. Yeah. And I

00:58:50 think actually like Microsoft got that really right and just has not really

00:58:53 solved a lot of the software stuff around Windows. Like the Surface isn't

00:58:57 everything it could be because of Windows in the same way that iPad is like

00:59:01 hamstrung by iPadOS, but in completely radically separate ways. Well, it's two

00:59:05 companies reacting to the web in totally different ways. Microsoft just lost to

00:59:09 the web. No one's developing hot shit, Win32 applications for the Surface.

00:59:14 Outside of games. Right. I just have to like set those aside, but like the

00:59:18 hottest new applications in the world happen on the web. Like that is a thing

00:59:23 that's just true. The web has become the dominant place to deploy desktop

00:59:27 applications. Great. Microsoft reacted to it by just letting go by being like,

00:59:31 you know what? We built Azure. Put your web applications on our cloud service

00:59:35 and run open AI on our cloud service and we'll make the money there and whatever.

00:59:39 We'll just try to get you to use Edge. Yeah. And that is one reaction. A big

00:59:43 company, especially because they lost to mobile. They basically had no choice.

00:59:46 Apple's response to it is like, no, no, that won't happen at all, sir. Right. And

00:59:50 on our tablet, you will deploy applications for the iPad. You will use the app store.

00:59:56 And indeed, there are some cool iPad apps because of it. That's great. Like Procreate

01:00:01 is an entire company that exists to develop iPad apps and use the iPad in the way that

01:00:06 Apple wants people to use. That is great. That's a success story. But there's not a

01:00:09 lot of great iPad apps. Like they squeezed the balloon and it didn't get a lot bigger.

01:00:13 Like mostly the air went out. There's some balance in there, but you can see those are

01:00:18 two reactions to the same problem. All I keep thinking as you say that is like,

01:00:22 boy, it's ridiculous that Google never figured out how to make decent hardware out of this.

01:00:27 That like this circling Google did around Chromebooks and Android tablets and all this

01:00:32 stuff. Like nobody should be more incentivized to figure out how to do this well than Google.

01:00:36 And it just didn't. And that makes me angry. And I just look at my pixel book and I'm like,

01:00:39 God, you could have been something. It could have been great. I mean,

01:00:42 I famously bought my mother a Chromebook pixel, the thousand dollar Chromebook

01:00:46 several years ago. She still uses it because it was easier to use than a Windows PC or a Mac.

01:00:51 But you open a Mac today, it has 50 different interface paradigms all happening at you at once.

01:00:56 There's a launchpad and Mac apps and a web browser, and it's trying to get you to use Safari

01:01:00 and all this other stuff. And you can run iPad apps and it has an app store, but you can also,

01:01:04 and that's like, that's too much. Like actually just go to a bunch of web pages and use whatever

01:01:10 you need to use there. And here's a really nice piece of hardware to do it. It's pretty good.

01:01:14 And I think you look at kind of all the like the Steam decks of the world that are running games

01:01:18 and Linux now, and you're like, oh, you could build a kick ass Chromebook right now. And is

01:01:23 anyone going to do it? It's like, I don't know. We've come a long way from the iPad where I'm

01:01:27 like, you could build a kick ass Chromebook. But that feels like one version of computing where the

01:01:32 restraints are lifted and it does everything everyone wants. And the simplicity that Apple's

01:01:37 chasing with the iPad is still there. - Yeah. I really do agree with,

01:01:41 and you said this on last Friday show that a desktop web browser, like a true great desktop

01:01:46 web browsing environment would immediately solve a lot of people's iPad problems. I think that's

01:01:51 really real. - Yeah. Let us just run Chrome. Like

01:01:54 honestly, maybe it'll destroy the battery, it'll light on fire. Chrome has a lot of problems. But

01:01:59 if you just let me use an iPad, like a Chromebook, eh, you know, like I would still buy the hardware.

01:02:04 I would still pay for Apple's various services. I would still need iCloud storage. Like you'll

01:02:08 make your money, Tim, but like, let me use the computer the way I want to.

01:02:12 - So maybe part of the reason people want a touchscreen MacBook is that that seems like

01:02:18 the more likely way to get closer to that perfect middle. Cause I think the iPad thing you're

01:02:22 describing is like, what if we just blew up the whole way Apple thinks about itself? And that'd

01:02:26 be cool, but seems less likely than there might be a touchscreen on a MacBook. And Mark Gurman

01:02:33 has reported that Apple's considering that again. Like it has seemed anathema to Apple for a long

01:02:38 time, but I would track that as probably a more likely sort of nudge towards the perfect all

01:02:44 things for all people computer than let's upend the app model entirely.

01:02:47 - Well, I think there's two ways of thinking about it. One, at some point, you're just like,

01:02:51 it's an M4 and it's a keyboard and a screen. They should be the same.

01:02:56 - I mean, I would assume by the way that they will be, like, I suspect we are going to get a Mac

01:02:59 with basically these exact same specs before very long.

01:03:02 - Yeah. The only difference between a Mac and iPad is that Mac doesn't have a random

01:03:05 LiDAR sensor and a camera on the back. But I think the other thing that is happening is,

01:03:11 in Europe, there's a bunch of regulations that say you have to let other web browsers on these

01:03:16 devices with their own engines. And maybe someone just makes a great desktop web browser with the

01:03:22 desktop Chrome engine, maybe. And I think as we've already seen with emulators, it really

01:03:27 recontextualizes what you can do when you get out of Apple's restrictions or those restrictions fade

01:03:32 away and other people are allowed to use the hardware to their advantage. So I think that's,

01:03:36 the iPad is in all the regulations now. There's some back and forth on it, but the Europeans are

01:03:42 Europeans and they're like, no, we're taking that too. Great. So I just think there's something

01:03:45 else that might happen there that could really change how we feel about iPads.

01:03:48 - That's fair. I guess I just mean, I don't see a world in which Apple does that of its own

01:03:53 volition. Like, especially with the iPad, Apple seems so precious about the way that that thing

01:03:58 works that every teeny tiny thing it has done to open it up has felt extremely kicking and

01:04:04 screaming against its will. - Yeah, because it's the one that they

01:04:07 control and it's the one that isn't a monopoly, I guess. Like it's hard to make the case. I guess

01:04:12 the Europeans are regulating it for various reasons because they think it's a gatekeeper,

01:04:15 but it's Apple's. Apple has long said, this is our vision for the future of computing.

01:04:20 It has not won in the market. It just hasn't. Like they sell a lot of iPads. They sell more

01:04:25 tablets than anybody else, but people still use their laptops. Like I can look at our own usage

01:04:30 in Google analytics on our webpage and tell you no one's browsing our website on a tablet.

01:04:35 Like it's just not happening. And so I think they feel protective of it because it's not

01:04:40 under pressure. Like they are the market, but the market's really small.

01:04:43 - Yeah. And I think they have this sense of what it could be and it is like beautiful and perfect

01:04:49 and extremely Apple. - Yeah. If only everyone would do

01:04:51 what they want. - Then we wouldn't need

01:04:54 touchscreen Mac books. It would all be fine. All right. We should go. Neil, I thank you as always.

01:04:58 - See ya. - All right. That is it for the

01:05:02 Verge cast today. Thanks to everybody who came on the show and thank you especially as always

01:05:06 for listening. There's lots more on everything we talked about at theverge.com. Tons from the

01:05:11 Surface event and all the new Microsoft things, all of our open AI coverage, everything about iPads,

01:05:16 all of it. We'll put it in the show notes, but also read theverge.com. It is just a crazy newsy

01:05:21 week. Microsoft build is today. Developer conferences are everywhere. AI stuff is

01:05:25 everywhere. There's just a ton going on. As always, if you have thoughts, questions,

01:05:29 feelings, or PC recommendations for me, you can always email us at vergecast@theverge.com

01:05:34 or keep calling the hotline 866-VERGE11. Like I said, I love hearing from you. We have a Slack

01:05:40 room that just pumps in every voicemail and we get to listen to it. It's so much fun. It is my

01:05:44 absolute favorite thing, both about maybe my job and definitely about being in Slack. If you've got

01:05:49 ideas, thoughts, questions, keep it all coming. This show is produced by Andrew Marino, Liam

01:05:53 James, and Will Poore. The Verge Cast is a Verge production and part of the Vox Media Podcast

01:05:57 Network. Neal, I, Alex, and I will be back on Friday to talk more about build, more about AI,

01:06:02 and everything else going on in tech this week. We'll see you then. Rock and roll.

Microsoft is in its AI PC era | The Vergecast

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