• 7 months ago
The Senate Appropriations Committee holds a hearing on Department of Defense acquisition programs.

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Transcript
00:00:00 Bill LaPlante, and the service acquisition executives,
00:00:03 Doug Bush, Nick Gertin, and Andrew Hunter.
00:00:07 Welcome, gentlemen.
00:00:07 Your leadership is vital to getting capability
00:00:11 into the hands of our war fighters
00:00:13 and to modernize our force,
00:00:15 and I wanna thank you all for being here.
00:00:17 I wanna point out that the Space Force brethren
00:00:19 are absent today, and it's because we will have
00:00:21 a classified hearing to discuss space-related matters
00:00:25 in a few weeks.
00:00:27 The FY 2025 budget request for the development
00:00:30 and procurement of weapons systems is $310.7 billion.
00:00:34 While the Fiscal Responsibility Act required you
00:00:38 to make some tough decisions on certain programs,
00:00:40 this is not an insignificant number.
00:00:43 So we're having this hearing to better understand
00:00:45 how the department leverages those resources
00:00:47 to field the programs that we need,
00:00:49 preferably on time and on budget.
00:00:52 After multiple continuing resolutions,
00:00:55 Congress finally enacted the FY '24 Appropriations Bill
00:00:58 just last March.
00:01:00 However, in many instances, the funds necessary
00:01:02 to execute acquisition programs are still not
00:01:06 in the hands of the program managers.
00:01:07 Many factors affecting getting acquisition right,
00:01:11 but it cannot be denied that repeating
00:01:13 continuing resolutions affect the ability
00:01:15 of program managers to effectively get the most bang
00:01:17 for the taxpayer's buck and field the programs
00:01:20 on cost and on schedule.
00:01:23 That said, over the past five years,
00:01:24 Congress has provided the Department of Defense
00:01:26 several new acquisition authorities
00:01:28 and funding flexibilities,
00:01:30 such as rapid prototyping authority
00:01:32 and the establishment of software pilot projects.
00:01:35 Recent appropriations bills have also supported
00:01:37 numerous DOD initiatives to facilitate rapid innovation
00:01:41 outside of a traditional budget cycle.
00:01:43 Yet, the reviews are mixed.
00:01:45 A recent Navy study showed that most shipbuilding programs
00:01:48 are over budget and behind schedule.
00:01:50 The Air Force's Sentinel Program
00:01:52 incurred a non-McCurdy breach and is under review,
00:01:56 and the Army recently terminated its fourth attempt
00:02:00 in 20 years to modernize its scout helicopter.
00:02:02 We will continue to work with the Department
00:02:05 on ways to improve the acquisition process,
00:02:07 but I must say we all share responsibility
00:02:10 for the state of our acquisition enterprise,
00:02:12 and I would tell you that it isn't good
00:02:14 and for a number of reasons.
00:02:15 Number one, Congress needs to enact
00:02:17 appropriation bills on time.
00:02:18 The Department needs to stabilize
00:02:20 program requirements, utilize realistic
00:02:22 acquisition strategies, and request
00:02:24 the right amount of funding and sign good contracts.
00:02:27 And industry needs to flat out deliver on time.
00:02:31 DOD acquisition is not an academic exercise.
00:02:35 It is responsibility for getting the warfighter
00:02:37 what it needs, when they need it,
00:02:39 so that they can do their job
00:02:41 in an increasingly dangerous world.
00:02:43 I look forward to hearing from each of you
00:02:45 on how we can do better.
00:02:48 Senator Murkowski will be joining us shortly.
00:02:51 She will have a few statements.
00:02:52 Susan is not here at this moment in time,
00:02:56 but she will put her opening,
00:02:57 I ask unanimous consent that her opening statement
00:03:00 be put into the record.
00:03:01 With that, we will start with you, Dr. LaPlante,
00:03:05 for your opening statement, I believe.
00:03:07 Hang on for a second, yeah.
00:03:10 Each one of you have three minutes.
00:03:12 I know that your full written testimony
00:03:13 will be a part of the record.
00:03:14 Go ahead, Dr. LaPlante, you have the floor.
00:03:16 - Thanks, Chairman Tester and Ranking Member Collins,
00:03:19 who I know will be here,
00:03:20 and distinguished members of the subcommittee.
00:03:22 Thanks to all of you.
00:03:23 It's a pleasure to be here today
00:03:24 with our service acquisition executives
00:03:26 representing departments acquisition and sustainment.
00:03:29 As the chairman just said, in recent years,
00:03:32 thanks to you all, you've given us more authorities,
00:03:34 more ways to do acquisition, increasing flexibility
00:03:37 and getting to get things at speed and capability,
00:03:40 and we really appreciate it.
00:03:42 We will give you in this hearing,
00:03:43 and to the extent that you have questions and talk about it,
00:03:46 examples of what seems to be working there
00:03:48 where still the challenges,
00:03:49 but an example of what you've given us
00:03:52 and how it's being used
00:03:53 are the middle tier acquisition authorities,
00:03:55 rapid fielding, rapid prototyping.
00:03:57 That is being used right now
00:03:58 by my three colleagues down the table,
00:04:00 as well as the Space Force
00:04:02 and putting together a proliferated LEO constellation,
00:04:04 so a lot of goodness happening there.
00:04:06 The Army, of course, has also done things
00:04:08 with the software pathway as well as others,
00:04:11 and Mr. Bush can talk to the integrated air missile defense,
00:04:14 which uses software acquisition pathway in a hybrid form.
00:04:18 And overall, there's 60 programs that are using software pathway,
00:04:22 and that's only been with us a few years,
00:04:24 so it shows you what we've been able to do with your help.
00:04:27 I think we need to do a lot more,
00:04:28 but anyway, it's a positive sign.
00:04:31 The other piece is flexible contracting.
00:04:34 As the chairman said, contracting is a key part of this.
00:04:37 What we've relearned or learned or relearned in Ukraine
00:04:41 is the department can do contracting extraordinarily fast
00:04:44 when it puts its mind to it.
00:04:45 We have methods like the Undefinitized Contracting Actions,
00:04:49 or UCA, that can be put in place within days or weeks,
00:04:52 and I would say in Ukraine, we've seen that.
00:04:54 There's no reason we can't extend that
00:04:56 and continue that across other contracts
00:04:59 in the Department of Defense.
00:05:00 Another very important tool that you've given us,
00:05:04 and industry has paid attention,
00:05:05 is multiyear procurements for munitions.
00:05:08 Thank you for giving us this, and it shows a degree of trust.
00:05:11 Industry has been saying for years
00:05:13 we don't see a demand signal.
00:05:15 We need to understand a demand signal.
00:05:16 A lot of us have been frustrated by that,
00:05:18 saying, "What else do you need?
00:05:20 We've got all these supplementals coming."
00:05:22 Well, I think what the multiyear shows
00:05:24 is that we're committed in these cases for those contracts,
00:05:28 that it won't be a one and done in one year.
00:05:30 It's going to be in multiple years,
00:05:32 and we'll get the savings appropriate with it,
00:05:35 and your help in getting those multiyears
00:05:37 are a big part of it.
00:05:38 We've also done things with the service
00:05:41 and service-specific acquisitions.
00:05:44 I would say when you're talking about acquisition,
00:05:47 there's really three legs of the stool.
00:05:49 One leg is acquisition, which is the contract.
00:05:52 The second is the requirement.
00:05:53 This is what the chairman was talking about,
00:05:55 about getting what the department needs right
00:05:57 for the warfighter, and the third is having the money
00:06:00 in the right year.
00:06:01 Those three legs of that stool,
00:06:03 moving across all three in an agile fashion
00:06:06 is the secret of really effective acquisition.
00:06:09 And so we remind the service acquisition executives that,
00:06:14 and we work with folks like this committee
00:06:16 to make sure we can move across that.
00:06:18 Again, I think there's a lot that we can talk about.
00:06:21 There's a lot of good that has happened in acquisition,
00:06:24 continues to happen.
00:06:25 We also have a lot more work to do.
00:06:27 So subject to the later questions,
00:06:29 that's my opening statement.
00:06:30 -Thank you, Dr. LaPlante. Secretary Bush.
00:06:32 -Chairman Tester, distinguished members
00:06:35 of the Senate Appropriations Committee,
00:06:37 Subcommittee on Defense, good morning.
00:06:38 Thank you for the invitation to appear before you
00:06:40 to share our views on the successes and challenges
00:06:43 we face in developing, procuring,
00:06:45 and fielding major acquisition programs.
00:06:47 The Army's fiscal year 2025 budget
00:06:49 represents a sustained commitment
00:06:51 to our key modernization portfolios.
00:06:53 It also continues modernization and procurement
00:06:56 of enduring platforms that will remain with us
00:06:58 for some years to come.
00:07:00 However, as members of the subcommittee have,
00:07:02 I'm sure, noted in reviewing our FY25 budget,
00:07:05 the Army's base budget for procurement research accounts
00:07:07 are under pressure in an overall flat budget environment.
00:07:11 In that context, the Army is committed
00:07:12 to getting every bit of modernization
00:07:14 we can get out of the funds we receive.
00:07:17 The Army cannot do that without your support,
00:07:19 and I thank you for your strong support of Army programs
00:07:22 in the FY24 appropriations bills and the FY24 supplemental.
00:07:26 Passage of those bills were critical in ensuring
00:07:29 we stay on track with modernization
00:07:31 and replenish our stocks as rapidly as possible.
00:07:33 In terms of how programs are doing,
00:07:35 I am overall very pleased with where things stand
00:07:38 in most Army programs right now.
00:07:40 With a few exceptions, Army acquisition programs
00:07:43 are delivering on time, on cost,
00:07:45 and providing a level of combat effectiveness
00:07:47 that is world class,
00:07:49 something one can observe in Ukraine and elsewhere,
00:07:51 where our systems are in high demand
00:07:53 and performing exceedingly well in high-intensity combat
00:07:56 against a very capable enemy.
00:07:58 Patriot, Atacams, Javelin, HIMARS, Gimlers,
00:08:00 Bradleys, Abrams tanks, and 155 artillery,
00:08:04 just to name a few, are showing what U.S. weapons
00:08:06 can do on the battlefield.
00:08:09 That combat performance is, in my view,
00:08:10 the only standard that truly matters,
00:08:13 in the end, because whether it's our soldiers
00:08:14 using this equipment or an ally,
00:08:16 it makes the difference between life and death
00:08:18 for the people on the front line.
00:08:20 There are, of course, programs
00:08:21 where everything is not going perfectly,
00:08:23 and I'm happy to dive into the reasons for that with members,
00:08:25 but I am pleased to support that,
00:08:26 with this committee's support,
00:08:28 Army acquisition officials are feeling empowered
00:08:30 to take informed, thoughtful risk,
00:08:32 and when appropriate, where appropriate,
00:08:35 to increase our overall pace of development,
00:08:37 production, and fielding.
00:08:39 From an acquisition policy perspective,
00:08:41 as Dr. Plante said, the Army continues
00:08:43 to aggressively implement and employ
00:08:44 the many reform initiatives provided by Congress.
00:08:47 Middle-tier acquisition is one.
00:08:49 We have 35 programs using it.
00:08:51 We've had many success stories.
00:08:53 The M10 Booker combat vehicle went from program start
00:08:56 to production in four years.
00:08:58 Our new 6.8-millimeter rifle went from an idea
00:09:01 to production in just three years.
00:09:03 And the other very exciting thing
00:09:05 is the software pathway Dr. Plante mentioned.
00:09:08 This pathway is critical to allow us to go
00:09:10 at the same speed industry goes
00:09:12 when they're doing their programs.
00:09:14 And finally, I should mention that the Army
00:09:15 is pursuing multi-year programs.
00:09:17 We did four in FY23 for artillery.
00:09:19 We're, with this committee's support,
00:09:21 we are pursuing two more for PAC-3 and gimmlers in FY24.
00:09:25 And a last thing to mention is this committee's
00:09:29 strong support for rapid acquisition authority
00:09:32 to allow us to respond to urgent threats.
00:09:34 We used that authority doing a contract
00:09:36 in less than 30 days to meet a critical
00:09:38 counter-UAS need in Central Command,
00:09:41 which was under attack last fall.
00:09:43 That kind of flexibility, when used responsibly
00:09:46 with correct oversight, is absolutely essential
00:09:48 to meeting critical warfighter needs quickly.
00:09:51 In closing, I want to say thank you on behalf of the Army
00:09:53 for both the funding and authorities we need
00:09:54 to support our modernization efforts.
00:09:56 With continued support from Congress,
00:09:58 we are building a force capable of competing
00:09:59 across the spectrum of competition and conflict
00:10:02 to deter conflict and failing that prevailing conflict.
00:10:05 Thank you for your time today.
00:10:06 I look forward to your questions.
00:10:07 - Thank you for your statement.
00:10:08 Secretary Gertin, you have the floor.
00:10:10 - Chairman Tester and--
00:10:13 (microphone feedback)
00:10:15 - It's good, yeah.
00:10:16 Chairman Tester and distinguished members of the committee,
00:10:20 thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today
00:10:22 to address our acquisition programs
00:10:25 and the defense industrial base.
00:10:27 We'd like to thank the subcommittee
00:10:28 for your leadership and support to the shipbuilding,
00:10:30 naval aviation, and ground programs
00:10:32 that maintain maritime superiority
00:10:35 in defense of our nation.
00:10:37 Maintaining the health of our acquisition programs
00:10:39 while strengthening the industrial base is a top priority.
00:10:42 Through strategic partnerships
00:10:44 between the Department of Defense, Congress,
00:10:46 our sister services and industry,
00:10:47 we are more efficiently and affordably procuring ships,
00:10:50 aircraft, and munitions by leveraging the advantages
00:10:53 of opportunities such as block buy
00:10:55 and multi-year procurement authorities.
00:10:57 The FY25 budget requests, fully funds,
00:11:00 the Department of Navy's top defense acquisition priority,
00:11:03 the Columbia-class nuclear ballistic missile submarine.
00:11:06 Prioritizes resources in the Navy shipbuilding account
00:11:09 to fund investments in the submarine industrial base
00:11:11 and includes a San Antonio-class landing platform dock
00:11:14 in support of the Department of Navy's requirement
00:11:16 for 31 amphibious ships.
00:11:19 We're also making targeted investments
00:11:22 in critical munitions to address today's threats
00:11:24 and posture ourselves for tomorrow's challenges.
00:11:28 The Department of Navy continues to invest funds
00:11:31 in the weapon industrial base to ensure we can surge
00:11:34 and ramp to production in the immediate future.
00:11:37 The passage of multiple security supplementals
00:11:40 enables us to replenish stocks of US weapons
00:11:43 and provide equipment to key allies and partner nations.
00:11:47 Supplemental legislation also facilitated
00:11:49 and funded our partnerships with industry
00:11:51 to expand capacity, modernize existing production lines,
00:11:54 and improve resiliency by qualified additional suppliers
00:11:58 and streamlining certification capabilities.
00:12:01 These investments positively impact our primes,
00:12:05 their subcontractors, and critical suppliers
00:12:07 across the US while supporting our allies and partners.
00:12:10 With deliberate approach, the Department of Navy
00:12:12 has increased ship and aviation maintenance
00:12:14 and readiness accounts to improve availability
00:12:17 while modernizing existing platforms.
00:12:19 The Department of Navy continues to make robust
00:12:22 strategic investment in our four public shipyards
00:12:25 and ensure they're able to execute ship maintenance
00:12:27 effectively and efficiently.
00:12:29 In aligning with my secretary's priorities,
00:12:31 the Department of Navy continues to identify
00:12:33 and overcome obstacles that threaten the success
00:12:36 of our acquisition programs and the industrial base.
00:12:40 The launch of the Maine Defense Industrial Alliance
00:12:43 in cooperation with federal and local government
00:12:45 as well as industry demonstrates our commitment
00:12:48 to developing and maintaining a well-trained,
00:12:50 skilled, and motivated workforce in support
00:12:53 of growing and fostering the shipbuilding industrial base.
00:12:56 The Department of Navy appreciates the continued support
00:13:00 and investments from Congress.
00:13:01 Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you
00:13:04 and your subcommittee today.
00:13:06 We look forward to answering your questions.
00:13:07 - Thank you for your statement.
00:13:09 Secretary Hunter, you have the floor.
00:13:11 - Thank you, Chairman Chester,
00:13:12 and thank you to the other members
00:13:14 for having me here today to provide testimony
00:13:16 on the U.S. Air Force acquisition programs
00:13:18 and also for the support you provide to us
00:13:21 in terms of resources and flexible authorities.
00:13:24 They are critical to our success
00:13:25 in the acquisition enterprise.
00:13:27 We need that flexibility and those resources
00:13:29 'cause the way in which we have to do acquisition
00:13:31 in the current security environment is changing
00:13:34 and must change, be less platform-centric
00:13:37 and more focused on the integration
00:13:40 and the tight integration between systems
00:13:43 in order to be effective in the future fight.
00:13:45 It requires tight partnerships also
00:13:47 between the operational and acquisition communities
00:13:50 in the Department of the Air Force
00:13:51 in developing the necessary capabilities
00:13:53 to deter and win future conflicts.
00:13:55 The Secretary of the Air Force has also made clear
00:13:57 to the Congress and also to us
00:13:59 within the Department of the Air Force
00:14:01 that we're out of time,
00:14:02 and so we have to reoptimize our organization
00:14:04 to move faster and also to prepare
00:14:06 for a very challenging future fight.
00:14:10 And therefore, we're shifting our focus
00:14:11 from platforms operating individually to mission threads
00:14:14 and capabilities that are required
00:14:16 to close those threads reliably and consistently over time
00:14:19 in a resilient fashion.
00:14:21 This requires us to work across our stovepipes
00:14:24 and integrate in ways that are often stymied
00:14:26 when in our existing organizational structure
00:14:28 and that require flexibility
00:14:29 within our acquisition approaches
00:14:31 in order to execute successfully.
00:14:34 So we're adapting our acquisition approaches
00:14:35 and our capability development organizational structure
00:14:38 to meet the challenges of great power competition.
00:14:41 Recognizing the challenges laid out in the defense strategy
00:14:44 and our operational imperatives
00:14:46 and our reorganization, reoptimization initiative,
00:14:49 we've gone to implement
00:14:50 a next-generation acquisition approach
00:14:53 that builds upon a foundation of government expertise,
00:14:56 technical architectures that enable open systems approaches,
00:15:00 and the constant injection of new technologies.
00:15:03 It ensures there's continuous competition
00:15:06 throughout the lifecycle of a program
00:15:08 to allow the Air Force to take advantage
00:15:09 of new advances in technology
00:15:11 through incremental development
00:15:12 while lowering the barriers to entry
00:15:13 for companies, including nontraditional companies.
00:15:16 I want to particularly highlight
00:15:17 the collaborative combat aircraft program
00:15:19 as the exemplar of our efforts to develop
00:15:21 and field new capabilities,
00:15:23 rapidly affordability, and at scale.
00:15:25 In fiscal year '25, we'll begin the concept refinement
00:15:29 for the next CCA increment
00:15:31 as we continue to explore
00:15:32 international partnership participation
00:15:34 and expand our approach to continuous competition.
00:15:38 Since time is of the essence and capability development,
00:15:40 we're very thankful to the Congress
00:15:41 for providing quick start authority
00:15:43 and the NDAA, and I know this committee
00:15:45 was very helpful in getting
00:15:47 to a successful resolution of that issue.
00:15:49 I also want to highlight that we just
00:15:51 put through that authority and through that process
00:15:56 a program to provide C3 battle management
00:15:58 for moving target indication at scale,
00:16:01 which I think is a very effective use of that authority.
00:16:04 We look forward to working with Congress
00:16:05 as we organize into a more agile
00:16:07 and integrated acquisition system
00:16:09 that delivers capabilities quickly and at scale.
00:16:11 We welcome the opportunity to provide you
00:16:13 more details on our key Department of the Air Force efforts
00:16:16 where we can use help,
00:16:17 including the establishment of our new software directorate,
00:16:21 our implementation of the Defense Acquisition
00:16:23 Workforce Development Account
00:16:25 to build that government expertise that I referred to,
00:16:27 and our approach to digital material management.
00:16:29 Thank you again for the opportunity to testify.
00:16:32 - Yeah, I want to thank all four of you for your testimony.
00:16:34 We'll get into the questions right now.
00:16:35 We have heard a lot in recent years
00:16:37 about the challenge that the defense industry
00:16:39 has to attract and retain a manufacturing workforce
00:16:43 to build weapon systems on time.
00:16:45 This is concerning, and we will be discussing that more today
00:16:47 but my primary question is about
00:16:49 the Department of Defense's own workforce.
00:16:51 This is for all of you.
00:16:53 What is the DOD's acquisition workforce?
00:16:56 Our acquisition budgets have grown significantly,
00:16:59 but do we have enough qualified
00:17:01 and experienced contracting officers?
00:17:03 Do we have enough auditors?
00:17:05 Do we have enough cost estimators to manage this workload?
00:17:08 We'll start with you, Dr. LaPlante.
00:17:11 - Yeah, thank you, and with the authorities
00:17:13 that this committee and others have given us,
00:17:15 they're of course only as good
00:17:16 as the workforce to implement them.
00:17:18 I would say broadly, like a lot of our economy
00:17:21 and our society, there's been a generational change
00:17:23 in our workforce.
00:17:25 I would say that we have put in place
00:17:27 many of the tools that you have given us,
00:17:29 including the one that just was mentioned
00:17:30 by Honorable Hunter on the acquisition demonstration
00:17:34 and the funds to train next generation.
00:17:37 I would say the area that I'm most focused on
00:17:40 really beefing up are contracting officers.
00:17:42 A couple of comments on that.
00:17:44 Number one, I'm biased, but I actually think
00:17:46 that the contracting officers in the Department of Defense
00:17:48 are some of the best in the United States government.
00:17:51 As a result, they're also highly desirable,
00:17:53 both in other parts of the US government,
00:17:55 which is not a bad thing necessarily,
00:17:57 but out in the private sector.
00:17:59 We also, and this is something perhaps
00:18:00 that's not fully appreciated,
00:18:02 during the years in Iraq and Afghanistan,
00:18:04 many contracting officers did service downrange in country,
00:18:09 four or five times in some cases.
00:18:11 Many of those got burned out.
00:18:13 So we're rebuilding many parts
00:18:14 of the contracting workforce.
00:18:17 I would say in pockets, we still have work to do.
00:18:19 Net overall, I'm pretty pleased with where we are,
00:18:22 but I would also defer to my other colleagues here.
00:18:24 - And we'll go to Secretary Bush next
00:18:26 from an Army perspective.
00:18:28 Where are we on those three?
00:18:30 - Senator, I would agree with Dr. LaPlante.
00:18:32 If I worry about one workforce,
00:18:34 it's the contracting workforce.
00:18:35 There's only about 9,000 people.
00:18:37 They've doubled their workload, frankly.
00:18:41 They did COVID, then they rolled straight into Ukraine.
00:18:43 - So is 9,000 optimal, or do you need more?
00:18:46 - Sir, some more would be helpful.
00:18:49 However, we are, in the meantime,
00:18:50 focused on giving them better technology
00:18:52 and tools to be more efficient.
00:18:53 So I think a little help in both realms,
00:18:56 efficiency investment,
00:18:57 and perhaps some more people would be warranted.
00:18:59 - If you could get back to us,
00:19:01 you don't have to do it now
00:19:02 'cause I wanna go to Secretary Gerton,
00:19:03 get back to us on how many more people you would need.
00:19:05 Secretary Gerton.
00:19:06 - Thank you, Senator.
00:19:09 Echo of my colleagues that contract officers
00:19:12 are a key component of our future.
00:19:14 One of the things I've advocated for for years
00:19:16 is a better application of modularity
00:19:19 and open architectures
00:19:20 in order to invoke competition more broadly.
00:19:23 And all of those require contracts.
00:19:25 So we need contract officers to grow.
00:19:29 And honestly, the Navy grows great contract officers
00:19:32 'cause people keep hiring them.
00:19:33 So that's something we continually have to refresh.
00:19:37 Also, a particular note is waterfront workforce.
00:19:42 We need more people out on the deck plates
00:19:44 building and maintaining ships.
00:19:46 It's a big problem for us.
00:19:47 I'll talk more about that later.
00:19:49 Lastly, I'd like to note that we also need to up our game
00:19:54 in understanding how to build ships.
00:19:56 Naval architects and marine engineers
00:19:58 is something that we have a deficit of.
00:20:00 It happened over the course of many years,
00:20:03 something I'm particularly focused on
00:20:04 so we do a better job of understanding our business
00:20:07 of building ships.
00:20:09 - Okay, and from an auditor's
00:20:11 and cost estimator's standpoint, we're okay?
00:20:14 - Well, in one of the key areas of auditing
00:20:18 includes keeping an eye on waterfront ship production.
00:20:23 But in the area of supervisor of shipbuilding,
00:20:25 that's an area we particularly need more help with.
00:20:28 - Secretary Hunter.
00:20:29 - Yeah, thank you, Senator.
00:20:31 We really value the resources that we received in '24
00:20:34 for the DOTA account, that workforce development account,
00:20:37 42 million.
00:20:38 Areas of need for us include,
00:20:41 I would say software expertise.
00:20:43 So while we still rely on industry
00:20:44 to produce the vast majority of our software,
00:20:47 we need enough government expertise
00:20:48 to really be a good customer for that.
00:20:50 And we are also increasingly doing organic development
00:20:53 of software in our sustainment center,
00:20:56 not just for systems that are in sustainment,
00:20:58 but also for new development programs like B21
00:21:01 in partnership with our prime.
00:21:02 So that software workforce expertise is a key area of need.
00:21:06 And I did wanna also mention
00:21:08 our acquisition workforce development pilot,
00:21:11 which has been a pilot since the mid-1990s.
00:21:13 I personally believe it should be permanent.
00:21:16 But at a minimum, we need to extend it
00:21:18 because that is a key way if we keep our talent.
00:21:21 - Last follow-up really quick,
00:21:22 and you gotta answer this very quickly.
00:21:24 I got 20 seconds left.
00:21:25 Do you guys have a plan to fix the shortages
00:21:29 that you perceive within the contracting?
00:21:32 Yes or no?
00:21:32 - Yes, we are executing that plan.
00:21:34 - Dr. or Secretary Gertin.
00:21:35 - Yes, but we could definitely need some help.
00:21:38 - Okay, Secretary Bush.
00:21:40 - Not with the funding I have right now, Senator.
00:21:42 - Okay, thank you very much.
00:21:44 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:21:47 Thank you all for being here
00:21:48 and your focus on what we need to be doing better
00:21:55 when it comes to accelerating in the acquisition space.
00:21:59 I think we recognize that sluggish is one of those words
00:22:04 that perhaps best describes what happens
00:22:08 in a bureaucracy like we are faced.
00:22:10 I appreciate your response to the chairman about workforce
00:22:15 because that is key to most everything.
00:22:18 But I wanna start, Dr. LaPlante.
00:22:20 If you were to give the department a letter grade here
00:22:24 on its current efforts to reform
00:22:27 and to improve the acquisition process,
00:22:30 and I noted, Mr. Hunter,
00:22:32 that you said that you've got an acquisition pilot
00:22:35 that has been in place since the '90s.
00:22:38 Maybe sluggish is even too kind of a word.
00:22:43 But if you have to really critically assess
00:22:46 where we are in how we're improving the acquisition process,
00:22:50 utilizing the new authorities
00:22:51 that can help you move faster,
00:22:53 what is that, and really what we need to know
00:22:56 is what more can Congress do to help move you through
00:23:01 to some better reforms here?
00:23:04 - Yeah, I would give it a grade of a B.
00:23:06 And the reason I give it a grade of a B on the positive side
00:23:09 is the American equipment is the best in the world.
00:23:11 The demand for foreign military sales
00:23:13 from US equipment is at record highs.
00:23:17 Everybody wants the equipment.
00:23:18 Everybody sees it work in Ukraine and other places.
00:23:21 They know it can also be trained for and sustained.
00:23:24 The demand for our stuff is through the roof.
00:23:26 We are seeing that every day.
00:23:29 Why is it not higher than a B?
00:23:31 'Cause number one, we still are too slow in certain areas,
00:23:34 particularly when it involves with adapting modern software.
00:23:37 Number two, we still do not have enough parts
00:23:40 and pieces that are interchangeable that we can use,
00:23:43 and they're not proprietary to one company.
00:23:46 The third area, which is still frustrating sometimes,
00:23:48 is we still over, don't get the requirements
00:23:51 and the acquisition right and aligned up.
00:23:53 So we have a lot more work to do
00:23:55 to get faster and to align those.
00:23:58 But I would say there's still,
00:24:00 when you look at cost schedule performance,
00:24:01 as my colleague in the Army said,
00:24:03 largely, net, cost increases are coming down,
00:24:07 performance is good, and schedule is the one area
00:24:10 we still need to make improvement on.
00:24:12 - Let me ask you, Secretary Grutin,
00:24:15 you mentioned that within the Navy,
00:24:20 you need to focus also on how you're building ships,
00:24:25 I think is how you framed it.
00:24:28 It's my understanding that some of what we're dealing with
00:24:33 when we're looking at where the Navy is
00:24:36 and the shipbuilding demands is,
00:24:40 whether it's approving construction
00:24:42 when design is not yet complete,
00:24:45 or perhaps altering existing requirements
00:24:47 during the build itself.
00:24:49 In other words, you don't have a flow here
00:24:53 that is consistent.
00:24:55 Can you expand on some of the internal lessons learned
00:25:00 that the Navy is working to rectify
00:25:03 as it faces some of these concerns with shipbuilding?
00:25:06 I think many of us in this committee,
00:25:10 in this Congress, are very concerned
00:25:12 about where we are with our naval fleet.
00:25:16 - Senator, I share your concern.
00:25:18 I was given a charge by the Secretary of the Navy
00:25:22 to look at shipbuilding when I was fairly new
00:25:25 into the position, and one of the things
00:25:27 that came out of it was to understand our risk balance,
00:25:30 and one of the things we haven't always done well
00:25:33 is have a robust, stable design
00:25:36 prior to launching into ship construction.
00:25:40 One of the things that I intend on doing going forward
00:25:42 is to make sure we're taking better advantage
00:25:44 of modern development tools that we have
00:25:47 for doing upfront modeling and naval acquisition,
00:25:51 naval architecture, prior to going forward with construction.
00:25:55 That's actually a fairly robust set of practices
00:25:58 in the commercial industry,
00:25:59 but we need to take better advantage of them
00:26:01 in how we build our naval ships.
00:26:04 We need the right kind of people
00:26:05 and the right kind of tools in order to be able to do that.
00:26:08 - Let me ask, back to you, Dr. LaPlante,
00:26:12 and this relates to our ground-based missile interceptors.
00:26:16 As you know, in Alaska, we have a pretty important
00:26:21 project up there.
00:26:25 Can you give me an update
00:26:26 on the Next Generation Interceptor program?
00:26:29 Are we on track?
00:26:30 Is it delayed?
00:26:31 Is it possible that it could even be ahead of time?
00:26:33 Where are we?
00:26:34 - Yeah, the program is on track,
00:26:35 the Next Generation Interceptor.
00:26:37 As you know, we were keeping,
00:26:39 and Missile Defense is keeping two contractor teams
00:26:43 much later in the process than we typically do,
00:26:45 almost up to CDR.
00:26:46 They're going through a down-select,
00:26:48 as we know, in the last couple of months.
00:26:50 And I expect that to be on track and on time.
00:26:54 Thank you. - Thank you.
00:26:54 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:26:55 (man speaking off mic)
00:26:57 - Senator Shaheen.
00:26:59 - Thanks.
00:27:02 (people speaking off mic)
00:27:05 - Support families here.
00:27:08 Don't destroy families here.
00:27:10 - Leave one to you.
00:27:11 Blood is on your hands.
00:27:13 We need money for healthcare and education,
00:27:15 not for the horrors of war.
00:27:17 - Thank you all for being here.
00:27:22 I'm gonna begin a little parochially.
00:27:28 Assistant Secretary Hunter,
00:27:29 we're very proud that in New Hampshire,
00:27:31 the 157th Air Guard flies the KC-46.
00:27:35 They were the first unit in the country
00:27:37 to get those KC-46s.
00:27:39 So I have watched very closely the delays
00:27:42 in the rollout of the new remote vision system.
00:27:44 I understand it's delayed yet again.
00:27:47 So what do we need to do to address that,
00:27:51 and how do we make sure that doesn't happen again?
00:27:53 (man speaking off mic)
00:27:58 - I was gonna say, right now,
00:28:00 it's been sort of a deal-up by the 157th,
00:28:02 and using the license to access the right micro-electronics
00:28:07 for that system, and also getting FAA certification
00:28:11 for the (mumbles)
00:28:13 Engineering work requires it.
00:28:15 FAA certification, so having that correct
00:28:18 and engineering (mumbles)
00:28:21 to achieve that necessary thing.
00:28:24 But those are the main things that we need there.
00:28:27 (man speaking off mic)
00:28:30 - So what's the current timeline?
00:28:42 (man speaking off mic)
00:28:47 Thank you, I will hold you to that.
00:28:49 Secretary LaPlante, actually, this is all of you,
00:28:55 mentioned the importance of the flexibility reforms,
00:28:58 the acquisition reforms that have been done
00:29:00 in the last couple of years.
00:29:01 And one of the concerns that I think we all have
00:29:06 is how do those procurement authorities
00:29:13 address the situation in Ukraine,
00:29:16 and allow us to prepare for future conflicts?
00:29:19 So, Secretary LaPlante, do you wanna start with that?
00:29:22 - Yeah, the authorities that have been provided,
00:29:24 and we talked already about the software authorities
00:29:26 and mid-tier acquisition, have really allowed us
00:29:28 to get started very, very fast,
00:29:30 and to move basically in an agile fashion,
00:29:33 if you wanna use the agile term, and go through sprints.
00:29:36 So those were already up and being used
00:29:38 across the services when Ukraine happened.
00:29:41 What we've added to that with Ukraine
00:29:43 was what we learned from COVID
00:29:45 and how to do rapid contracting.
00:29:47 A lot of the PPE and a lot of the stuff
00:29:49 that was done with the vaccines during COVID
00:29:51 was done by the Department of Defense.
00:29:53 That same rapid contracting was put for Ukraine.
00:29:56 So we learned that.
00:29:57 I think the other piece that we've learned from Ukraine
00:29:59 with these authorities is even if you have
00:30:01 these rapid capabilities, you have to do
00:30:04 what sometimes one of my colleagues here calls
00:30:06 the adult stuff.
00:30:08 You have to worry about it being sustained.
00:30:10 You have to worry about being trained to it.
00:30:12 And so you can go fast, but you have to go fast
00:30:15 with putting these other pieces in line,
00:30:17 and that's what we're learning with Ukraine.
00:30:19 But I'll turn over to my other colleagues.
00:30:22 - Senator, I would echo Dr. Plant's comments.
00:30:24 I think the reforms are much appreciated.
00:30:26 They do let us start programs faster,
00:30:28 which is a good thing.
00:30:30 However, the basics still apply.
00:30:31 You need good cost estimates.
00:30:33 You need realistic requirements.
00:30:35 And you need at some point to do the whole package,
00:30:38 which is something we do better than any other country,
00:30:40 which is the logistics, the military construction
00:30:43 that goes with a device, like a new range for a new rifle.
00:30:46 So ma'am, I think as long as, you know,
00:30:49 getting started fast is good,
00:30:51 but it's not the whole story.
00:30:53 However, it is a big deal and lets us respond more quickly
00:30:57 to new technology and new threats.
00:30:59 - Before, I'm gonna follow up on that.
00:31:01 So I don't need to have the other responses.
00:31:06 I was just in the Indo-Pacific.
00:31:09 One of our stops was in Japan,
00:31:10 where as you know, they doubled their defense operations.
00:31:15 And one of the things we heard there was concern
00:31:19 about how fast their industrial base
00:31:21 could respond to that directive.
00:31:24 Have also heard that from our European friends
00:31:27 about responding.
00:31:29 How are we working with our allies to help them respond?
00:31:33 And why has Russia been able to rebuild its systems
00:31:37 in a way that has allowed them to put out
00:31:41 what appears to be so many more munitions
00:31:43 than we've been able to get to Ukraine?
00:31:46 - I'll try to get to this very quickly
00:31:48 and turn it over to my colleagues.
00:31:49 First, the Russia, we're all monitoring
00:31:52 both in open source and other places.
00:31:53 What is Russia doing in its industrial base?
00:31:55 We saw that Putin just replaced his minister of defense
00:31:58 with an economist with an emphasis.
00:32:00 I think a lot of us have taken away that this is not,
00:32:03 they're not in it for the short term,
00:32:04 they're in the long term.
00:32:05 The second is the estimates that they're at 7%
00:32:08 of their GDP for military.
00:32:10 Oh, those are, and they're staying there.
00:32:12 And they're on a wartime footing.
00:32:14 Whatever you wanna say about the United States,
00:32:16 we are not, and I'm not suggesting we should or shouldn't,
00:32:18 it's just we're not.
00:32:19 The second thing, on your point about allies and partners,
00:32:23 across the board, allies and partners are recognizing
00:32:25 both in Europe and in Indo-Pacific
00:32:27 that they need an industrial base basically restart.
00:32:31 For all of the criticism we give ourselves,
00:32:33 rightfully so, they're envious
00:32:35 of what the United States has been able to do.
00:32:37 What we're talking to each of these countries,
00:32:39 and I'll talk about Japan,
00:32:40 and then I'll turn it over as a specific example,
00:32:42 is doing co-development, co-production with them
00:32:44 to help their industrial base and ours at the same time.
00:32:47 The next generation of missile defense interceptors
00:32:50 is gonna be called glide phase intercept.
00:32:52 It's beyond NGI.
00:32:53 That's a collaboration with the Japanese
00:32:56 and Japanese companies and American companies.
00:32:58 So that's where this is all headed.
00:33:00 You're gonna see much more co-production,
00:33:03 co-development, and co-sustain with allies and partners.
00:33:05 - Thank you.
00:33:06 - Senator Moran.
00:33:07 - Chairman, thank you.
00:33:08 One of the things that's taking place
00:33:12 that I think has a consequence to the industrial base,
00:33:15 the defense industrial base,
00:33:17 Spirit Aerosystems is a company
00:33:20 that employs 12, 13,000 people in Kansas,
00:33:24 does a lot of sub work for nearly every prime
00:33:28 defense contractor in the country.
00:33:30 The indications are that it may be purchased by Boeing.
00:33:34 Boeing, I assume, is interested in its,
00:33:39 and Spirit does significant work for Boeing today
00:33:43 on the commercial side,
00:33:45 but there's a significant component of Spirit Aerosystems
00:33:48 that is defense-related.
00:33:49 And I'm interested whether any of you
00:33:53 are paying attention to this issue
00:33:56 in part to understand what it might mean
00:33:59 to our defense industrial base and to supplies
00:34:03 should this merger occur.
00:34:07 I'd be interested in knowing
00:34:09 how this may expand or contract our defense base.
00:34:18 - Say a few words and then I'll ask my air--
00:34:20 - I should have asked Mr. Hunter.
00:34:23 - Oh, maybe Andrew.
00:34:23 - No, I'd be happy to hear from you, Mr. Secretary.
00:34:26 - So I'll give the standard caveat right at the beginning.
00:34:28 We don't comment on any pending M&A, obviously,
00:34:30 because it's a process that go through.
00:34:32 I would also say a couple things.
00:34:33 Number one is each one has to be--
00:34:34 - Do you have input in--
00:34:36 - We do.
00:34:37 On any of these M&As,
00:34:40 what happened whether it's done by the FTC
00:34:42 or Department of Justice,
00:34:44 the Department of Defense provides input
00:34:46 on any collateral good or collateral bad
00:34:50 that would come out of this,
00:34:51 and we take each on a case-by-case basis.
00:34:54 I would just say that.
00:34:55 But obviously, the health of the U.S. industrial base,
00:34:57 particularly companies that do commercial
00:34:59 as well as defense in their portfolio,
00:35:02 is something of keen interest to us.
00:35:04 I'll turn it over to Andrew.
00:35:05 - I only indicated to Mr. Hunter
00:35:07 because he just recently returned from visiting.
00:35:09 - Yeah, Senator, it was a great opportunity
00:35:12 to visit Spirit and developed a deep appreciation
00:35:15 for all the ways in which Spirit is contributing
00:35:17 to a variety of U.S. Air Force programs,
00:35:19 and as you noted, across a number of our key suppliers,
00:35:23 our key prime vendors,
00:35:24 and in particular, the manufacturing expertise
00:35:28 that is resident there and the ability to leverage
00:35:31 new production techniques that are very significant
00:35:34 and important to our more cutting-edge,
00:35:36 newer weapons systems,
00:35:38 leveraged out of the commercial development,
00:35:40 particularly 787.
00:35:42 That is, I think, a key asset for the nation,
00:35:45 and so we'll work closely with Doctoral Plan
00:35:48 in terms of the Department's feedback
00:35:49 to ensure that those capabilities
00:35:52 are still able to be utilized in the best way possible.
00:35:55 - Any other, Secretary?
00:36:00 - So, just camping a little bit on what Doctoral Plan said
00:36:04 about how the Defense Department looks at this,
00:36:06 but we're also looking through the lens of,
00:36:09 is it helping or hurting competition?
00:36:11 We want competition in as many places as we can
00:36:14 that helps us get a better deal from industry,
00:36:16 so that's one of the lenses that we'll look at that through.
00:36:19 - Let me highlight that Spirit Aerosystems,
00:36:24 this Tier 1 supplier, supports programs like the B-21,
00:36:28 the V-280, the CH-53K.
00:36:32 It's wide array across all of the Department,
00:36:35 and in my view, the Defense Department ought to be
00:36:40 at least encouraging me and others,
00:36:43 if not in addition to the administration,
00:36:46 to make sure that if there is a merger,
00:36:48 that the defense capabilities of Spirit
00:36:51 is not somehow lost in the process.
00:36:54 My assumption is that Boeing is almost exclusively
00:36:57 interested in this for commercial manufacturing,
00:37:00 and yet, if the absence of Spirit Aerosystems,
00:37:03 we lose a lot of defense capabilities.
00:37:06 I have visited with nearly, well, four or five of the CEOs
00:37:09 whose companies do work in defense with Spirit,
00:37:13 and there's a general feeling is,
00:37:16 I don't know where else we would go
00:37:19 in the absence of Spirit doing what it does today.
00:37:22 - And rest assured, as the process, as with others,
00:37:26 we will weigh in on the defense implications,
00:37:28 both good and necessarily not good on that case.
00:37:32 We will absolutely weigh in.
00:37:33 - Thank you.
00:37:34 - Senator Reid.
00:37:37 - Thank you very much, gentlemen.
00:37:39 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:37:40 I wanna reemphasize two points the chairman made.
00:37:42 First of all, the responsibility for this predicament,
00:37:45 and it is a very serious one,
00:37:46 is shared by both Congress and the executives,
00:37:48 so we have to work together.
00:37:50 Also, the attrition of our government workforce
00:37:55 is a key factor, and I don't think we're doing enough
00:37:57 to remedy that.
00:37:59 My impression on the decks, as you will,
00:38:03 there's a 27-year-old foreman
00:38:05 talking to a 27-year-old representative of Supt Ships,
00:38:08 where before the pandemic,
00:38:10 there were 50-year-olds talking to each other,
00:38:12 which makes a bit of a difference.
00:38:14 But I wanna go right to the Submarine Industrial Base.
00:38:16 As you know, Congress initiated funding directly
00:38:19 to rehabilitate and strengthen the Submarine Industrial Base.
00:38:22 Four years later, the Navy took up the cause.
00:38:27 But right now, the Columbia is behind,
00:38:29 and it's slipping further.
00:38:31 We cannot produce two attack submarines a year.
00:38:34 We're about 1.2.
00:38:36 And I think everyone can see this platform
00:38:39 is probably the most critical and decisive,
00:38:41 both of them, in our inventory.
00:38:43 So, Secretary Blank, you sent up a budget this year,
00:38:47 the president did, which is only buying
00:38:50 one Virginia-class boat,
00:38:53 but also putting significant amount of money
00:38:55 into the Submarine Industrial Base
00:38:57 for parts for additional boats.
00:38:59 Can you give us the rationale and logic?
00:39:02 - Yeah, thank you, Senator.
00:39:03 And as you well know, and appreciate the help
00:39:05 of this committee on the Submarine Industrial Base,
00:39:07 the department had the difficult choice
00:39:09 of either adding to the backlog that was there,
00:39:12 or take that money and invest it in increased capacity,
00:39:15 knowing that that's gonna be delayed
00:39:18 before we see the increase.
00:39:19 And it's the increased capacity
00:39:21 was what the department chose to do.
00:39:23 - And do you have metrics to measure
00:39:25 whether you're doing this efficiently or effectively?
00:39:28 - Yeah, the closest metrics that we look at,
00:39:31 when I know my Navy counterparts,
00:39:32 I know probably you do as well, and others,
00:39:35 is we look at the work, take Columbia, for example.
00:39:37 We look at the plan of where they are
00:39:39 in the work progress compared to the plan.
00:39:42 Are they maintaining the plan?
00:39:43 Are they falling behind?
00:39:44 Are they ahead?
00:39:45 And we're tracking it, I mean, I know the Navy's tracking it
00:39:48 almost every week.
00:39:50 We watch it at my level every month.
00:39:52 And for example, in Columbia,
00:39:54 we lost some ground in the fall.
00:39:56 It looks like we're gaining some of it back right now.
00:39:59 The question is, can we gain enough back
00:40:01 to get the one year, which is the nominal,
00:40:03 behind on Columbia to get that shortened?
00:40:05 We're watching it very, very carefully.
00:40:07 A lot of it has to do, as you know,
00:40:09 with the technical data packages,
00:40:11 the work instructions, getting to the workforce
00:40:13 in a way that they can implement,
00:40:15 and with proper learning and efficiency.
00:40:18 And we're also tracking how Columbia compares,
00:40:20 which is 826, to the 827, which is the next submarine,
00:40:24 and where that is.
00:40:25 And we're seeing the learning and the growth there,
00:40:28 but we track it all the time.
00:40:29 And I'd ask Nick if you wanna add anything.
00:40:31 - Please.
00:40:32 - So Senator, as you know, we are going to be
00:40:37 to the point where we need to be able to build
00:40:38 two and a third Virginias a year
00:40:40 plus serial production on Columbia.
00:40:42 We need to position ourselves for success in that regard,
00:40:46 and the investments we're getting from Congress
00:40:49 to be able to improve the throughput
00:40:52 of the submarine industrial base is critical
00:40:54 to be able to get to that point.
00:40:56 And it'll be historic.
00:40:57 Even when we were building Ohio's,
00:40:59 we're only building two Los Angeles's a year,
00:41:02 and both of those types of submarines are much simpler
00:41:05 than these Virginias and Columbias will be.
00:41:08 So we absolutely support that investment
00:41:12 so we can get to the point where we can build
00:41:14 two and a third Virginias a year
00:41:16 and serial production of Columbia
00:41:19 and get to that historic high level of throughput.
00:41:23 - Do you think you have the capacity to do that?
00:41:26 - No, sir, we don't.
00:41:28 But with the investments that we're going to be executing
00:41:30 over the course of the next few years,
00:41:32 we will get to that point.
00:41:33 - That would mean investments in additional shipyards
00:41:36 or additional capacity shipyards?
00:41:38 - So the capacity we're looking at right now is
00:41:44 to improve the shipyards we have.
00:41:46 In the near term, that's where we need to put our money.
00:41:50 I would like to, we actually are thinking about
00:41:54 and looking at where else we might have shipyard capacity.
00:41:57 But right now we're driving more of the work
00:42:00 out of the shipyards where they are right at the waterfront
00:42:03 and trying to push more of that work
00:42:05 into other facilities that can support
00:42:08 bringing those submarines together
00:42:10 in the couple of places that are unique to that capacity.
00:42:13 - Thank you very much.
00:42:13 And Secretary Hunter, in 2023 in the NDAA,
00:42:18 we created a site activation task force,
00:42:22 resident at the Air Force Global Strike,
00:42:24 to bring operational views into the process
00:42:27 of the Sentinel program.
00:42:31 How is that task force working and how are they helping,
00:42:35 I hope, with the McCurdy Nunn breach?
00:42:38 - Senator, they are helping.
00:42:41 I work very closely with General Conner
00:42:43 who leads that task force.
00:42:44 Meet with him on a very regular basis
00:42:46 as we go through the Sentinel Nunn-McCurdy process.
00:42:48 But of course we continue to execute that program
00:42:51 while we're going through the Nunn-McCurdy process.
00:42:53 So that's a key partnership.
00:42:55 We view B-21 as the best model
00:42:57 for integrating our operators and our acquirers,
00:42:59 as I referenced in my opening statement.
00:43:01 And that is the model we are looking
00:43:03 to execute with Sentinel.
00:43:05 We haven't reached quite that B-21 level of integration yet,
00:43:08 but we are well on our way.
00:43:09 We have staffed up in the program office
00:43:11 with operators from Global Strike,
00:43:13 both operators and maintainers.
00:43:16 And we are starting to see benefits of that,
00:43:19 especially as we go through some of the design choices
00:43:22 that we have to make to get to where we want to be
00:43:25 with the Nunn-McCurdy process.
00:43:27 - Thank you very much.
00:43:28 - Senator Bozeman.
00:43:28 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:43:33 Dr. Plant, we are faced with urgent need
00:43:37 to prioritize critical munitions
00:43:39 and replenish our stockpile commodities
00:43:42 against the backdrop of budget hindered by constraints.
00:43:46 This fiscal year, missiles and munitions
00:43:48 comprise of 10% of the department's investment funding
00:43:52 at $29.8 billion.
00:43:53 Dr. Plant, how will current budgetary restrictions
00:43:57 coupled with inflation affect
00:43:59 your long-term acquisition strategy for munitions?
00:44:02 - Thank you for the question.
00:44:05 I think what we've all seen in the last couple of years,
00:44:08 and actually this is probably the fourth time
00:44:09 it's happened since 2000,
00:44:11 where when a crisis happens within a year or two,
00:44:14 we realize that precision munitions,
00:44:16 that we run low on inventory.
00:44:18 And part of this is because we've bought munitions
00:44:20 historically one year at a time.
00:44:23 As I mentioned in my opening,
00:44:24 the fact that this committee helped us get multi-years
00:44:27 has takes that, it really gives that demand signal
00:44:30 back to industry to say,
00:44:31 we're not just gonna buy these key munitions
00:44:33 one year at a time, we're gonna buy them in multi-years.
00:44:36 And you can commit your own capital,
00:44:37 your own workforce to this.
00:44:39 So what we have for multi-years,
00:44:41 thanks to this committee and others,
00:44:43 we have multi-year contracts we're putting in place,
00:44:45 the Army already for 155,
00:44:48 we're gonna put them in for LORASM,
00:44:49 Long Range Anti-Ship Missile,
00:44:51 for JASM, for Patriot MS-3E,
00:44:54 which is the Advanced Patriot,
00:44:56 and Naval Strike Missile.
00:44:58 That's what we're doing to begin to build this back,
00:45:01 to show the commitment to industry
00:45:03 that not just for this year, but you perform,
00:45:06 you're gonna have this work three, four years from now.
00:45:09 So that's what we're doing.
00:45:10 But I would say overall,
00:45:12 the budget obviously constrains it.
00:45:15 As I've said, we've always dialed down
00:45:16 on manufacturing and production, because you can.
00:45:19 And so it is one of the bill payers,
00:45:21 it's historically been one of the bill payers.
00:45:23 - So again, we've given you this authority,
00:45:26 will you be able to in the next year or two
00:45:28 then be able to give us good data,
00:45:32 working with your partners
00:45:35 as to the positive effect that this is gonna have?
00:45:38 - Absolutely, and I would say we're already seeing
00:45:40 some of the positive effect, but we'll do.
00:45:42 - Good, thank you very much.
00:45:43 Also, I wanna highlight the domestic availability
00:45:46 of ingredients necessary to manufacture
00:45:49 smokeless gunpowder, including nitrocellulose,
00:45:53 nitroglycerin, and acid production.
00:45:56 A supply chain shortage in these areas
00:45:58 could not only impact the ability
00:45:59 to manufacture ammunition, but also increase it cost.
00:46:04 - Dr. Plant, has the department studied
00:46:06 the domestic availability of these ammunition components,
00:46:11 and is the department concerned with the current
00:46:14 limited availability of nitrocellulose?
00:46:17 What are the limitations for current
00:46:19 and future production of nitrocellulose?
00:46:22 - Thank you, and it has been said many times,
00:46:24 that energetics, which some of these
00:46:25 are in the category of energetics,
00:46:26 actually is the limiting factor for some of these munitions
00:46:29 in terms of global, actually.
00:46:31 So in the cases of almost all the items you mentioned,
00:46:34 we are, and I could actually ask the Army
00:46:37 to jump in here, finding alternative sources,
00:46:40 domestic sources, to really replace
00:46:42 these very rare things that many of them
00:46:44 are from overseas, but I'd ask Doug
00:46:46 if you wanna add anything.
00:46:48 - Senator, on the nitrocellulose front specifically,
00:46:53 we have this year coming online
00:46:55 at Radford Army Ammunition Plant
00:46:57 a $700 million previous investment made years ago
00:47:01 by Congress to go to a fully modern,
00:47:04 very high capacity production capacity
00:47:06 that's on our ammo plant.
00:47:07 So sir, I think that one we are gonna end up
00:47:09 ahead of the problem, not behind,
00:47:11 which is great to see.
00:47:12 However, we do have other sources.
00:47:15 We have focused on making sure
00:47:16 those are friendly countries.
00:47:17 Of course, we want allies providing these things,
00:47:20 not our potential enemies.
00:47:22 We have other tasks, sir, directed by Congress
00:47:24 to by 2028 not have any, I would say,
00:47:28 unfriendly sources in our ammunition
00:47:30 chemical supply chain, I would call it,
00:47:32 and we're committed to achieving that, sir,
00:47:34 and it's gonna require some investments here,
00:47:37 but also working with members on
00:47:39 working through how we can do that
00:47:40 with allies as well.
00:47:41 - Good, so that's the one we're hearing
00:47:43 the most about, the nitrocellulose.
00:47:45 Anything we can do to support your efforts,
00:47:48 you know, just let us know.
00:47:51 The National Defense Industrial Strategy
00:47:53 prioritizes the need for skilled
00:47:55 and staffed workforce.
00:47:56 Camden, Arkansas has become a leader
00:47:58 in the defense industry at a time
00:48:00 when our country needs it the most.
00:48:02 We recognize there's more work to be done
00:48:04 to recruit, retain, and provide skilled workers
00:48:06 with the best opportunities as we ramp up
00:48:09 production and capacity.
00:48:11 Dr. Plant, to what extent is the department
00:48:16 working with industry partners to invest
00:48:18 and renew interest in industrial jobs
00:48:20 to optimize workforce readiness?
00:48:22 - Thank you, Senator.
00:48:24 Almost every meeting that we have
00:48:26 with industry that I have or my colleagues have,
00:48:28 most of the meeting is talking about workforce.
00:48:30 And each company is in sort of a different place,
00:48:33 which we'd expect, but writ large,
00:48:35 for example, welders across the country
00:48:37 in any industry are, they're very, very prized right now.
00:48:42 The other piece that we're seeing is
00:48:44 the price differential between what
00:48:46 the defense industrial base will pay
00:48:48 for let's say some type of workman,
00:48:50 HVAC or whatever, the delta between that
00:48:52 and the services industry has decreased.
00:48:55 So we have to work with the companies
00:48:57 without, with doing it cost effective
00:48:59 and how we can get some of the wages higher.
00:49:02 The other piece of this that we're finding
00:49:03 is really important is supervisors.
00:49:06 We had a whole generation of supervisors
00:49:08 basically retire during COVID.
00:49:10 What really matters to most workers
00:49:12 is your direct supervisor.
00:49:13 So a lot of emphasis there, but this is a huge,
00:49:16 it is the number one issue
00:49:18 of our industrial basis workforce.
00:49:19 - Right, very good.
00:49:20 Thank you all so much for all you do.
00:49:23 We really do appreciate you.
00:49:25 Senator Baldwin.
00:49:27 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:49:29 Secretary Gertin, during a recent
00:49:33 Senate Armed Services Committee hearing,
00:49:35 Senator Peters asked you about the frigate program.
00:49:39 I was, I take issue with your answer
00:49:45 and I want to, you seem to minimize
00:49:49 the Navy's shared responsibility
00:49:51 for challenges facing that program.
00:49:54 In my view, it's not merely that the Navy
00:49:57 failed to perform sufficient oversight
00:49:59 as you mentioned in your response,
00:50:01 but that the Navy has directly contributed
00:50:04 to the delay by requesting substantial design changes
00:50:08 as well as a slow, slowly approving design deliverables.
00:50:13 By some reports, the frigate was intended
00:50:16 to maintain 85% of a prior design,
00:50:20 but now in part due to the Navy's request
00:50:23 for changes, retains only 15% of that previous design.
00:50:28 And while some changes related to enhanced survivability
00:50:32 are to be expected, these drastic numbers
00:50:35 tell me that the Navy is contributing to program delays.
00:50:38 So Mr. Secretary, yes or no, do you agree
00:50:41 that the Navy shares responsibility
00:50:44 for the ship design issues that have caused delays
00:50:47 for the frigate?
00:50:48 - Senator, yes I do.
00:50:49 I'm sorry that I left that impression.
00:50:53 This was absolutely a government industry partnership
00:50:57 and the extent that, I mean we didn't change
00:51:01 the requirements for survivability
00:51:03 after the contract was left, but I don't think
00:51:05 we understood the full impact of what that was gonna be
00:51:09 when the ship designers and naval architects
00:51:12 got to work and figured out, well,
00:51:13 what did that requirement mean in terms
00:51:15 of the impact to the base design?
00:51:18 - Thank you for that response.
00:51:20 The Navy has identified growing and maintaining
00:51:22 a skilled workforce as a primary challenge
00:51:26 for the frigate program.
00:51:28 For the last two years, I secured increases
00:51:31 to the Navy's budget specifically to expand
00:51:34 the frigate workforce and industrial base.
00:51:36 And I'm working again this year to increase
00:51:38 workforce funding because the need certainly remains.
00:51:42 Mr. Secretary, how will this workforce investment
00:51:46 address factors contributing to the frigate delay?
00:51:49 - Thank you, Senator, for helping us
00:51:54 with getting a workforce, especially in places
00:51:57 where we're necessary for building this frigate.
00:52:00 It's been especially helpful to make sure
00:52:05 that we have the right people out in those buildings.
00:52:08 I had a chance to visit up there in Marinette
00:52:10 a couple of times and it is a fantastic facility.
00:52:13 We just don't have enough people out there
00:52:15 building those ships and that will be a big help
00:52:17 to attract people into that environment.
00:52:19 But we also need to work with Fincantieri specifically
00:52:23 to make it an attractive place to work
00:52:27 in terms of the equities for working in that environment.
00:52:31 Childcare and other kinds of aspects
00:52:33 of the community nearby.
00:52:35 And we can do that in partnership
00:52:37 with the industry and with your support.
00:52:40 - Thank you, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:52:41 - Senator Hoeven.
00:52:44 - Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
00:52:46 Secretary LaPlante, one of the most important things
00:52:50 we're doing is updating the nuclear triad.
00:52:54 Incredibly important and we're now doing
00:52:56 a non-mercury review on the Sentinel portion.
00:53:01 Are you committed to making sure that we work through that,
00:53:03 that we stay on track, and that we do
00:53:05 the full Sentinel modernization on schedule?
00:53:08 - Thank you for the question.
00:53:10 Just to state the important thing right at the very beginning
00:53:13 as you said, Senator, number one,
00:53:15 the modernization of our triad is the top priority
00:53:18 of the Defense Department.
00:53:20 The triad, of course, is the next generation bomber, B-21,
00:53:23 the next generation SSBN Columbia, we just spoke to,
00:53:26 and of course, Sentinel, which replaces Minuteman III.
00:53:29 In 2022, the Nuclear Possible Review by this administration
00:53:34 reaffirmed the need for a triad.
00:53:35 So non-mercury or not, we have a policy of our country
00:53:39 of having and sustaining a triad.
00:53:41 In the case of the non-mercury,
00:53:42 I'm committed to working with the Air Force
00:53:45 and with the cross-DOD team to go through
00:53:47 the letter of the law and make sure that we,
00:53:50 if we do recertify, and it's not a guarantee,
00:53:53 that we recertify a program that is executable
00:53:56 and will meet replacing that leg of the triad.
00:53:59 We're about a month and a half from the end of that process.
00:54:02 We have a lot of work going on,
00:54:04 and I will just continue to keep this committee informed.
00:54:07 But separate from the non-mercury, we need a triad.
00:54:11 - Okay, thank you, Secretary.
00:54:13 And then I know the chairman of this committee
00:54:16 shares my sentiments on this,
00:54:18 but is there anything that we can do
00:54:20 that is helpful to you in this process?
00:54:23 - I think already there's been a tremendous help,
00:54:25 particularly, of course, by the chairman here.
00:54:28 I think a lot of the focus, assuming if we go forward,
00:54:32 is gonna be really on the localities,
00:54:35 on getting for the states impacted,
00:54:37 of course, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Nebraska,
00:54:41 North Dakota, that we are reaching out as soon as possible
00:54:45 to make sure the communities are ready for what's coming,
00:54:48 to make sure we're listening to the communities,
00:54:50 and as I've spoken with the chairman here,
00:54:52 to make sure that things like the vocations needed,
00:54:56 that we're as early as possible,
00:54:58 get that in the communities.
00:54:59 And of course, you all know your communities
00:55:01 better than anybody, and so any of your help
00:55:04 will be appreciated, including letting us know
00:55:06 when we're not making the mark.
00:55:08 - Okay, thank you, Secretary.
00:55:10 Next question relates to countering drones.
00:55:13 We're seeing, obviously, in Ukraine, Israel,
00:55:16 across the world, the threat that is proposed by drones,
00:55:19 and in some case, we're using million-dollar missiles
00:55:22 to shoot down a very inexpensive drone,
00:55:25 and then you've got swarms.
00:55:26 What are we doing on countering drones
00:55:29 to get ahead of the curve here?
00:55:31 - That is the problem of our time, so we're doing a lot.
00:55:34 Number one is that I chair, it started just in March,
00:55:38 a senior integration group that moves equipment,
00:55:42 counter drone equipment, into theater ASAP.
00:55:44 At the same time, the Army is the lead service
00:55:47 on building out towards an integrated capabilities.
00:55:49 We now have between 40 and 50
00:55:51 different counter drone technologies.
00:55:54 We're finding out which ones work,
00:55:56 and which ones need to get fielded.
00:55:58 To your point, we also have to make the exchange ratio
00:56:01 be cost-effective.
00:56:02 If we're shooting down a $50,000 one-way drone
00:56:07 with a $3 million missile, that's not a good cost equation.
00:56:10 We're working through it.
00:56:11 Many of the solutions we're looking towards
00:56:13 with industry and with non-traditionals
00:56:15 are very cost-effective.
00:56:17 That is our high priority, but I will say,
00:56:19 the technology's changing every couple of weeks,
00:56:21 and the tactics are changing,
00:56:23 and it's gonna be just a constant fight,
00:56:26 but we're all over it.
00:56:28 - At Grand Forks, we do an incredible amount of work
00:56:30 with drones, not only in terms of the base's mission there,
00:56:34 but we have a test site for UAS there.
00:56:37 We're also, we've got Customs and Border Protection
00:56:41 co-located on the base.
00:56:42 We have responsibility for 900 miles of border,
00:56:44 actually, all the way out to Contiguous with the chairman.
00:56:48 That would be a very good location for you
00:56:51 to do some of this work.
00:56:53 Are you aware of what's going on there,
00:56:54 and what about looking at it for some of this work?
00:56:58 - The details that you just went through, I'm not aware of,
00:57:01 but I'd love to follow up on it.
00:57:02 And to the point, the talent and the expertise
00:57:06 in building drones, oftentimes,
00:57:09 is exactly the same expertise in countering them,
00:57:12 because you understand, actually, what the technology is,
00:57:14 what they're dependent upon.
00:57:15 So yes, I'd be happy to follow up.
00:57:16 - Yeah, I'd like to get you out there,
00:57:18 and also, Secretary Hunter, same for you,
00:57:21 and I would like to add the ISR component.
00:57:24 We need more ISR.
00:57:25 What are we doing to make sure we lead the world
00:57:28 in that ISR capability?
00:57:30 - Well, thank you, Senator.
00:57:32 We are working hard on that.
00:57:34 Obviously, there's elements of that we can't talk about
00:57:36 in this forum, but that is a huge priority for the Air Force,
00:57:41 and so we will continue to dialogue with you
00:57:43 on the investments that we're making there
00:57:45 to advance those capabilities.
00:57:46 I agree with you, they are essential,
00:57:48 particularly to our kill chains.
00:57:50 - And I'd like to get you out to North Dakota,
00:57:53 to the Grand Forks area, along with Secretary LaPlante.
00:57:56 I think it would be helpful for both of you.
00:57:58 Thank you.
00:57:59 Thanks to all of you for being here today.
00:58:00 Appreciate it.
00:58:01 - Thank you, Mr. Chair.
00:58:02 - Senator Coons.
00:58:03 - Thank you very much, Chairman Tester,
00:58:04 and thank you to all of you.
00:58:06 I agree with you that we have widespread,
00:58:09 I think bipartisan, grave concern
00:58:10 about whether our defense system overall
00:58:13 is appropriately aligned with the requirements
00:58:16 of the warfighter, that we are taking advantage
00:58:18 of innovation in the American system
00:58:21 as we are producing and delivering weapons
00:58:24 and weapon systems and platforms
00:58:26 that are more and more dependent on software,
00:58:28 on IT, on interoperability, and communications.
00:58:32 I'm concerned we're not learning the lessons
00:58:34 of the war in Ukraine, the MacGyvering of solutions
00:58:37 in the midst of an otherwise very difficult
00:58:39 and complex battle space.
00:58:40 So let me just briefly ask a few questions,
00:58:43 if I might, as the newest member of the committee.
00:58:45 You recognize, if I might,
00:58:48 that there's a huge acquisition workforce,
00:58:51 I think 187,000 acquisitions professionals,
00:58:55 and that just having the workforce
00:58:57 to do the acquisition is important.
00:58:59 What work is being done, if I might,
00:59:02 Undersecretary LaPlante, to make sure
00:59:04 that the acquisition workforce is familiar with,
00:59:07 comfortable with, and able to use authorities
00:59:10 like other transactions authority, CSO,
00:59:13 to take advantage of the MTA pathway?
00:59:16 What's being done to make sure that more broadly
00:59:18 the acquisitions community that may have never seen
00:59:21 or done one of these transactions is able to?
00:59:23 - Yeah, we have a whole education and training effort
00:59:26 led out of Defense Acquisition University.
00:59:27 I was just there, actually, two days ago,
00:59:29 speaking to one of their graduating classes
00:59:31 that is all about having experts come in with case studies
00:59:34 and say, "This is how you use
00:59:36 "a software acquisition pathway.
00:59:37 "This is what you need to know about modern software."
00:59:40 And teaching, teaching, teaching.
00:59:42 The best thing that can be done is experts
00:59:44 that have done it in one part of the DOD
00:59:45 teaching experts in another part,
00:59:48 and that's what we're doing.
00:59:49 We're spreading the word.
00:59:50 It's a lot more of it is online,
00:59:52 and a lot more of it is also,
00:59:54 we're bringing in industry.
00:59:56 In fact, a class that I spoke to the other day
00:59:58 had a quarter of it were from industry.
01:00:01 So I think all of the above is what we're doing,
01:00:03 knowing that you can be an expert
01:00:05 in software acquisition today.
01:00:07 Two years from now, you may not be an expert anymore.
01:00:09 You have to keep up with it.
01:00:11 - I was struck in your testimony,
01:00:13 and maybe I just misread these numbers quickly,
01:00:16 of 236 programs that use the MTA pathway,
01:00:23 three have transitioned to full operational capability,
01:00:26 and 107 to other pathways.
01:00:28 Help me understand that ratio.
01:00:30 Did I misunderstand what the other pathways meant?
01:00:33 - Yeah, let me tell you what I believe
01:00:35 without having the numbers right in front of me.
01:00:37 So the mid-tier acquisition was put in place,
01:00:39 I believe, in 2018, and there was a restriction on it
01:00:42 that basically said with waivers,
01:00:44 it's gotta be out of it by five years.
01:00:46 So by definition, five years later,
01:00:49 you're not gonna be an MTA anymore
01:00:50 for most of these that were started then.
01:00:52 So the question is, when you're nearing the end of that MTA,
01:00:55 which is rapid fielding or rapid prototyping,
01:00:57 what do you do?
01:00:58 Do you transition it into major capability,
01:01:01 which means, for example,
01:01:02 now go into higher rates of production,
01:01:04 or do you do some other version of it?
01:01:05 And I think that's what you're seeing.
01:01:07 We do have examples of where they've reached the warfighter.
01:01:09 - Last question, if I might.
01:01:11 A big piece of the NDIS, partnering and our allies.
01:01:16 AUKUS Pillar 2 is particularly intriguing to me.
01:01:18 What do you see as priorities for co-development
01:01:22 with close allies,
01:01:23 and this may also be particularly relevant to the Navy,
01:01:25 of capabilities that maybe both in terms of workforce
01:01:28 and in platforms, we can't do on our own?
01:01:31 - So Senator, you mentioned earlier the lessons of Ukraine.
01:01:33 One of the lessons of Ukraine
01:01:35 is co-production of munitions.
01:01:38 So right now, we're working a lot across Europe
01:01:41 around co-production of 155,
01:01:43 co-production of Patriot in Australia,
01:01:45 separate from AUKUS,
01:01:46 we're gonna be doing co-production,
01:01:48 the Army is, of gimblers and eventually prism.
01:01:50 And I mentioned earlier about Japan with the glide.
01:01:53 I think you're gonna see much more co-production
01:01:56 and co-sustainment with our allies and partners.
01:01:59 - Thank you for your testimony.
01:02:00 I look forward to staying in touch,
01:02:01 and I will echo what you heard from several other senators
01:02:04 about the urgency of deploying the counter UAS platforms
01:02:08 at speed that are effective and affordable.
01:02:10 - Thank you, Senator Coons.
01:02:13 We're gonna do another round,
01:02:15 and I've got a short question that I'm gonna ask.
01:02:19 It goes to the previous question that I started out with,
01:02:22 and it goes actually to your answer, Secretary Bush.
01:02:25 You said you didn't have the money at this time,
01:02:27 so I wanna kinda flesh that out a little bit.
01:02:29 Congress established a distinct appropriations account
01:02:32 to ensure sufficient funding to recruit
01:02:34 and retain acquisition personnel.
01:02:36 Have you used that account?
01:02:40 Do you have access to that account?
01:02:42 Is it effective?
01:02:43 - So Senator, the DOTF account, yes,
01:02:47 we of course use it to train folks,
01:02:49 and if it was bigger, that would actually be very helpful,
01:02:52 and it wouldn't have to be dramatically bigger.
01:02:54 A little bit could go a long way across the services.
01:02:57 - Okay, as far as the Navy and the Air Force goes,
01:03:00 do you guys use that account,
01:03:01 and do you feel the same way
01:03:02 as Secretary Bush feels?
01:03:05 - Yes, Senator, we do, and it's been very effective,
01:03:09 much like what the Army has experienced.
01:03:11 - Is it adequate?
01:03:12 - I'll have to get back to you on that.
01:03:15 I don't have a number in front of me right now,
01:03:17 but I'd say we probably use more.
01:03:19 - But, okay, keep going.
01:03:20 Secretary Hunter.
01:03:21 - Senator, we do use it.
01:03:23 As I mentioned, 42 million in the '24 budget.
01:03:26 Our request for 25 is 52 million within that account,
01:03:29 so it is an increase, and it reflects the fact
01:03:31 that we are ramping up both development and production
01:03:34 across a number of acquisition programs,
01:03:36 so we do need more resources and have requested them.
01:03:38 - Senator Murkowski.
01:03:43 - Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:03:47 Mr. Hunter, in the FY25 budget,
01:03:52 Air Force is acquiring less fighters
01:03:55 than originally projected, six less F-35s,
01:03:59 six less F-15EXs than originally planned.
01:04:03 We all get that it's right to get the right technology,
01:04:08 but at some point, it doesn't really matter
01:04:11 how capable the fighter is.
01:04:13 You've got to have sufficient numbers.
01:04:16 In Alaska right now, the 18th Fighter Intercept Squadron,
01:04:21 we think, is accepting some increased risk
01:04:25 because of the low inventory of the F-16s in the unit.
01:04:30 So, question to you is, as our threats and missions increase,
01:04:35 our aircraft inventory continues to decrease,
01:04:39 does Air Force have a plan to increase
01:04:41 the size of its fighter fleet in the out years?
01:04:44 - So, we are continuing with purchase
01:04:48 of our fifth gen fighter aircraft, F-35 and F-15EX
01:04:53 in the 25 request.
01:04:55 We also intend to, in effect, force multiply
01:05:01 that fighter force with the collaborative combat aircraft.
01:05:04 And that's trying to, again, change that cost equation.
01:05:07 The doctoral parent referenced that in terms of munitions.
01:05:10 It's also very true in the tactical aircraft space
01:05:13 that at some point, we need a mix of affordable aircraft
01:05:17 along with our higher end fighter aircraft.
01:05:19 And so, we see the collaborative combat aircraft
01:05:21 as being that affordable element
01:05:24 that allows us to force multiply our fighter fleet,
01:05:27 which the crewed fighter fleet, which remains essential,
01:05:30 but is always something where it's gonna be challenging
01:05:32 to get up to the hundreds of aircraft production numbers
01:05:35 that would be necessary to stay completely even
01:05:38 on the size of our fighter force.
01:05:40 - So, let me ask a question about the expansion
01:05:45 of research and the modernization funding in OSD
01:05:51 rather than in the military services.
01:05:54 In this fiscal year, that includes one billion in DIU
01:05:58 and more than 500 million for the replicator initiatives
01:06:01 to field thousands of autonomous attributable systems
01:06:04 in the next 18 months.
01:06:06 One of the things that has been underscored
01:06:10 in this committee is that OSD-led efforts
01:06:13 have a clear path to be fielded at scale,
01:06:17 which is really the responsibility of the military services.
01:06:20 Drones or other innovative capabilities
01:06:22 just can't be bought.
01:06:23 They need to be incorporated into the tactics
01:06:25 and the procedures for how the military services
01:06:27 prepare and fight war as well as being maintained
01:06:31 and modernized.
01:06:32 So, for each of you here, there is,
01:06:34 do we have sufficient rigor to ensure these sorts of efforts
01:06:39 at the OSD level, that there's robust, clear transition plans
01:06:44 that include how the services are going to employ,
01:06:48 field, and maintain these systems at scale?
01:06:51 - Just start by, I'll start by saying,
01:06:54 first, by asking the question, Senator,
01:06:56 you're actually making a really, really important point.
01:06:59 The services lead on fielding at scale
01:07:02 and organized training and equipment, not OSD.
01:07:06 Not OSD.
01:07:06 And so, what's really, really important
01:07:09 is much beyond the technology and the widget
01:07:12 is what we call dot mil PF,
01:07:14 the doctrine, the training, the operations.
01:07:16 So, if otherwise, it just doesn't really matter,
01:07:18 and we're seeing that with Ukraine.
01:07:20 So, what's really important, these prototypes and efforts,
01:07:23 whether they're done by OSD, DARPA, or done by IRAD,
01:07:28 is that there be, if it's successful,
01:07:30 a credible way to get this at scale
01:07:32 and that the services can use it,
01:07:34 can train to it, and can sustain it.
01:07:36 So, it's a key point for us to watch,
01:07:39 rather than just get excited about the prototype by itself.
01:07:42 I'll turn it over. - So, you think
01:07:43 it's a good idea, but we're not quite there yet
01:07:45 in terms of making sure that we are implementing to scale?
01:07:48 - I would say it's a good idea,
01:07:49 but it's like saying if you're three innings
01:07:53 into a baseball game and the pitching's going really well,
01:07:56 don't celebrate, because you have to finish the job,
01:07:58 and finish the job is,
01:07:59 the stuff has to get to the services.
01:08:01 - Secretary Bush.
01:08:03 - Senator, I would suggest members think of it in two ways.
01:08:05 One is, OSD does have a times useful independent role
01:08:10 in experimentation and prototyping with technologies
01:08:12 that we haven't been able to focus on.
01:08:14 And there needs to be a space for that,
01:08:15 and there needs to be funding for that,
01:08:16 because sometimes they do discover things
01:08:18 that we won't on our own.
01:08:20 However, when it comes to scale, ma'am,
01:08:23 the most productive efforts are ones
01:08:26 that are paired with the services,
01:08:27 meaning they are collaborative and cooperative
01:08:30 with a clear path to us from their work.
01:08:32 We have had some successes.
01:08:34 The Army's new mid-range capability,
01:08:36 which is our land-based anti-ship batteries,
01:08:39 started with the SCO project.
01:08:41 And we took it, created and made it an Army program,
01:08:44 we took their work, built on it,
01:08:45 and are now, we have fielded that.
01:08:48 So there can be successes, ma'am.
01:08:49 We're doing that with Replicator,
01:08:50 with the Army's effort that's been announced.
01:08:53 I think that tight coupling is where,
01:08:55 when the dollars get big,
01:08:56 there needs to be a service partner identified
01:08:58 in advance before the money gets too big,
01:09:01 would be my way to think about oversight.
01:09:03 - Appreciate that.
01:09:04 Secretary Gertin, anything final to add?
01:09:08 - So the Navy's been very supportive of Replicator.
01:09:11 We actually brought two Navy and one Marine Corps projects
01:09:15 to the first tranche of Replicator
01:09:16 in partnership with OSD,
01:09:18 and I echo Mr. Bush's comments
01:09:22 that that partnership is critical to fielding at scale.
01:09:26 One other aspect to that is,
01:09:28 when we're looking at these kinds of initiatives,
01:09:32 we wanna make sure we carry forward
01:09:34 the sustainability and support work
01:09:36 to make sure that our soldiers, sailors, airmen,
01:09:39 Marines, guardians, can actually use this stuff
01:09:42 in a reliable way when they need to in a fight.
01:09:45 - Anna.
01:09:48 - Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
01:09:51 Good to see you all.
01:09:52 Thank you all for your service.
01:09:54 I wanted to turn to a very expensive program
01:09:59 with a set of serious safety concerns attached to it.
01:10:05 That's the Tiltrotor V-22 Osprey program.
01:10:10 At the end of November 2023,
01:10:13 we saw yet another fatal Osprey crash
01:10:16 that came the lives of eight airmen
01:10:18 due to a parts failure.
01:10:20 From March 2022 to November 2023,
01:10:23 we had 20 service members die in four fatal crashes.
01:10:28 In February of 2023, DOD indicated
01:10:32 that it had solved the hard clutch engagement problem
01:10:37 thought to be behind these accidents with 99% certainty.
01:10:42 Department made that assurance
01:10:43 only for two more Ospreys to go down in Australia in August
01:10:47 and then in Japan in November of 2023,
01:10:50 the accident I referenced.
01:10:53 This is an important program.
01:10:56 It's an expensive program,
01:10:57 but it's a program that seems to be plagued
01:11:00 by significant and deadly safety concerns.
01:11:03 So Assistant Secretary Hunter
01:11:05 and Assistant Secretary Gerden, let me ask you this.
01:11:08 I know you take these losses tremendously seriously.
01:11:12 Can you update the committee
01:11:13 on how your services are working to address
01:11:15 these unanswered and ongoing safety problems
01:11:18 with the V-22 Osprey?
01:11:20 - Senator, you're right.
01:11:21 This is a particularly grave concern.
01:11:23 Navy and Air Force took it very seriously.
01:11:29 We did a grounding of those aircraft
01:11:32 after the November crash,
01:11:35 and we rigorously investigated.
01:11:38 We looked at what the,
01:11:39 we actually brought that craft back up out of the water.
01:11:42 We investigated what was going on, did detailed analysis,
01:11:45 and we better understand what happened
01:11:48 in that particular failure mode.
01:11:50 We have established a crawl, walk, run approach
01:11:53 to get back to the point where we can get back
01:11:55 to the flight envelope.
01:11:57 Well, not there yet.
01:11:58 We have--
01:11:59 (audience members shouting)
01:12:03 So the, getting back to the crawl, walk, run.
01:12:13 We've, we're now in a limited envelope,
01:12:17 but we're characterizing and collecting data
01:12:20 so that we can better understand where we are
01:12:22 and be able to safely get back
01:12:24 to the full flight envelope of that aircraft.
01:12:26 The Marines have been flying that thing for years.
01:12:28 They have a lot of 'em.
01:12:29 They love that aircraft,
01:12:31 but we have to make sure that it's safe for them to fly.
01:12:34 - And Senator, I appreciate the question.
01:12:37 We obviously very deeply regret the loss of life.
01:12:40 It was a terrible tragedy.
01:12:42 We have been working very closely with the Navy on this,
01:12:44 sharing our engineering expertise.
01:12:46 The Navy is the lead, has the lead engineering role
01:12:49 and function for this platform,
01:12:50 but it's an important platform for the Air Force as well.
01:12:53 And as Secretary Gertin indicated
01:12:55 with the crawl, walk, run approach,
01:12:57 we have definitely taken great care,
01:13:01 and I know AFSOC has taken great care
01:13:03 to ensure that as we return,
01:13:05 as we get on the path to return to flight operations,
01:13:09 every step of an echelon of the operating units
01:13:14 and the support functions that support them
01:13:16 are ready to go to the next stage
01:13:17 to resume flight operations.
01:13:19 - 20 service members lost in the last two years,
01:13:22 60 service members lost overall to the Osprey.
01:13:26 Look forward to continuing this dialogue.
01:13:30 To Secretary LaPlante and Secretary Bush,
01:13:33 I will note that the Army decided in 2022
01:13:35 to move forward with a tilt rotor aircraft
01:13:38 for the future long range assault aircraft,
01:13:42 despite these safety concerns,
01:13:44 and despite the tilt rotor bid
01:13:47 being close to twice the cost of the competing bid.
01:13:52 And so this committee is left with a contract award
01:13:57 for a major program for the Army
01:13:59 that has potential major cost implications
01:14:03 and has serious safety concerns.
01:14:05 So let me ask you,
01:14:07 can you talk about the steps that are being taken
01:14:09 by the department and the Army
01:14:12 with respect to the FLARA contract that is underway
01:14:16 to ensure that this new tilt rotor, the Valor,
01:14:20 does not expose soldiers to the same risks
01:14:22 that are apparent with the tilt rotor Osprey?
01:14:24 - I'll just say a few words
01:14:25 and then turn it over to my colleague, Doug.
01:14:27 Obviously, the safety considerations
01:14:29 and the hard facts of what you've been saying
01:14:32 about these terrible losses in the last year,
01:14:34 year and a half, weigh heavily on us.
01:14:36 And I know the Army is,
01:14:38 it's all part of how they're considering
01:14:40 going forward with these programs.
01:14:41 I'll let Doug continue.
01:14:42 - Senator, thank you for the question.
01:14:44 I believe the Army,
01:14:46 we believe we will benefit from the 20 years
01:14:48 of engineering experience and knowledge
01:14:51 that the Osprey will provide to our design,
01:14:56 which we believe will be fundamentally different
01:14:59 in certain respects to make it as a reliable
01:15:03 and safe an aircraft as possible.
01:15:05 Sir, I would, military aircraft do tragically crash
01:15:09 sometimes, it is, military service is inherently dangerous,
01:15:12 but we are committed to, of course,
01:15:14 the safest aircraft we could possibly get.
01:15:16 And we were having to, we will work with members
01:15:18 on that as we move forward.
01:15:20 - Well, I appreciate your answers,
01:15:22 but I think anybody who has followed the history
01:15:25 of military aviation would submit
01:15:28 there have been particularly difficult problems
01:15:31 with the tilt rotor, in part because of the complexity
01:15:34 of its design.
01:15:35 And I certainly worry that we have not,
01:15:40 to any degree of satisfaction of these families,
01:15:43 settled the safety concerns on the Osprey.
01:15:45 And to your point, Secretary Bush,
01:15:48 we are developing a new version of the tilt rotor.
01:15:50 And so some of the lessons learned will be applicable,
01:15:53 but there's also just as good a chance
01:15:55 that there are going to be a whole new set
01:15:57 of safety concerns with the Valor
01:16:00 that are going to add to the expense of this program
01:16:02 that are ultimately going to be significant
01:16:05 safety liabilities for our servicemen
01:16:07 and cost liabilities for this committee.
01:16:10 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:16:11 - Senator Moran.
01:16:13 - Mr. Chairman, thank you.
01:16:15 Just a couple of questions in what time I have.
01:16:20 Talk a bit about ammunition.
01:16:21 Secretary Bush, you and I had a conversation,
01:16:25 I think in a classified setting, about ammunition.
01:16:30 We have an old Army ammunition plant in Kansas
01:16:34 that the Army has invested significant dollars
01:16:37 to bring it back into production.
01:16:40 And I think as a result of the passage of the supplemental,
01:16:43 that plant is now prepared to manufacture
01:16:48 12,000 155 millimeter ammunition as requested.
01:16:53 So thank you for that investment.
01:16:59 My question is, are we going to avoid the ups and downs
01:17:04 based upon the demand of the moment for ammunition?
01:17:10 Is there any demand signal to this plant
01:17:14 or any other in the country?
01:17:15 What happens when Ukraine is behind us?
01:17:18 Is there a plan that precludes going through
01:17:23 what we just went through with this significant investment
01:17:27 that doesn't require that again in the future?
01:17:29 - Senator, yes, if I could first say thank you
01:17:34 for the support and for the great folks in Kansas
01:17:36 who are helping us build that load-assemble-pack facility.
01:17:39 It comes online this summer as part of our overall ramp-up
01:17:42 to our desired level.
01:17:44 To your main question,
01:17:46 we are thinking very carefully about that.
01:17:48 What we don't want to happen is a cliff
01:17:50 where we have a rapid loss of workforce
01:17:53 and an unwise ramp-down that puts at risk
01:17:58 these investments we're making in brand new facilities.
01:18:01 So Senator, my ideal situation would be,
01:18:03 over time when we are required to ramp down
01:18:07 to lower production levels, we do two things.
01:18:09 One, we maintain these facilities either ideally with work,
01:18:13 foreign military sales for example,
01:18:15 if we can keep that going,
01:18:16 that lets us keep the high production rates
01:18:18 going even longer.
01:18:20 But even if that winds down,
01:18:21 that we work share among the different facilities
01:18:25 to maintain them in at least a warm status
01:18:27 with enough people to be able to ramp up quickly.
01:18:30 One thing I will admit was not in place before
01:18:34 was a really kind of a war plan to ramp up production.
01:18:39 Just like we have war plans for going in fighting wars,
01:18:41 I believe we need one for mobilization
01:18:43 and one that we should rehearse and think about
01:18:45 and try out every now and then even if it's simulated.
01:18:48 So that sort of needs to be a key lesson learned
01:18:52 from this whole thing for the department,
01:18:54 not just the Army, so that our potential enemies
01:18:58 know that we can ramp up quickly
01:19:00 and that should deter them from taking us on.
01:19:02 But we have to do it, sir, and not just talk about it.
01:19:05 - Just to add to what Doug said,
01:19:07 what we're putting in place with the methodology
01:19:09 that Honorable Chris Lohman, who works for me,
01:19:12 is doing with the services,
01:19:14 is not just have the requirement
01:19:15 for the level of the munition,
01:19:17 but to say what is the requirement
01:19:19 after the conflict is over
01:19:21 to replenish or reconstitute the munition?
01:19:23 How fast and to what extent?
01:19:26 And put that in the requirements
01:19:28 and then we all have to budget to it.
01:19:30 So we have to stick with it, I think,
01:19:32 because both the multi-years that we mentioned
01:19:34 that you gave us and this concept that Doug's describing,
01:19:37 we have to do it because we always get surprised.
01:19:40 - Thank you both for your answers.
01:19:43 My final question, Mr. Chairman,
01:19:46 technology coordination between defense
01:19:48 and commercial sectors seems important to me,
01:19:52 and a bit for what I talked about earlier in my questioning,
01:19:56 to facilitate the speed and development of JADC2,
01:20:01 in this case, capabilities.
01:20:03 Dr. LaPlante, would you speak to the need for clarity
01:20:08 and assigned responsibilities for JADC2 within the DoD?
01:20:12 - Yeah, thank you.
01:20:14 The DoD is building out what's the JADC2,
01:20:17 which in layman's terms is a way of doing the kill chain,
01:20:21 if you will, command and control of the kill chain
01:20:23 across multiple weapons, multiple sensors,
01:20:26 and multiple platforms.
01:20:27 Doing that together with kinetic and non-kinetic
01:20:30 is what JADC2 is all about,
01:20:32 and it's what the department is building out.
01:20:33 The services are working diligently on their piece.
01:20:36 What OSD is doing is making sure that the standards
01:20:39 are correct between the difference
01:20:41 that we have interoperability,
01:20:42 that we don't have vendor lock,
01:20:44 and then to your point about commercial,
01:20:45 that we take advantage of the best of commercial technology
01:20:49 and make sure it's in there,
01:20:50 whether it's rapid networking reconstitution,
01:20:53 whether it's artificial intelligence.
01:20:55 That is what's being built with JADC2.
01:20:57 The services are doing their piece.
01:20:59 OSD is making sure that they can talk to each other
01:21:02 as we build it together.
01:21:03 - Would non-DoD experts in the development
01:21:06 of this capability, this capacity, be beneficial?
01:21:10 - Absolutely, because if you think about
01:21:11 what 5G has had to do, which is build a terrestrial network
01:21:16 that has high data rate, low latency,
01:21:17 that is essentially what we need in JADC2,
01:21:20 with the caveat that we're fighting these things
01:21:23 in very contested areas.
01:21:25 - Thank you.
01:21:26 - I wanna thank you for your testimony.
01:21:27 I wanna thank each and every one of you
01:21:29 for the work that you do.
01:21:30 We've got challenges out there in this acquisition sphere,
01:21:34 whether it's competition, whether it's workforce,
01:21:36 whether it's timeliness, whether it's meeting costs,
01:21:39 whether it's the continuing CR baloney,
01:21:42 and I'm being generous when I say baloney,
01:21:44 that comes out of Congress,
01:21:44 whether it's government shutdowns,
01:21:46 whether it's budget adequacy.
01:21:48 We gotta work together.
01:21:49 We gotta be honest with one another.
01:21:51 This is important stuff, especially at this moment in time.
01:21:55 Senators will have,
01:21:57 maybe they may submit additional written questions.
01:22:00 We would ask that you would respond to those questions
01:22:02 if they come in at a reasonable amount of time.
01:22:04 This defense subcommittee will reconvene
01:22:06 on Tuesday, May 21 at 10 a.m.
01:22:09 for a hearing with the Department of Army.
01:22:13 We stand at recess.
01:22:14 (gavel bangs)
01:22:16 (silence)
01:22:18 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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