Carroll and Kaplan sat down with Fortune’s Emma Hinchliffe at a Most Powerful Women dinner in New York City.
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00:00 [MUSIC PLAYING]
00:03 Hello, Eugene.
00:14 Robbie, welcome.
00:15 Thank you so much for being with us.
00:17 Thank you, Emma.
00:19 This is so exciting.
00:20 Thank you, Robbie.
00:21 Yes, exactly.
00:23 So it's been almost four months since you
00:25 won $83.3 million after suing Donald Trump.
00:29 [APPLAUSE]
00:32 It's been just a few weeks since the judge denied
00:34 his request for a new trial.
00:36 So how are you feeling?
00:36 [LAUGHTER]
00:39 I feel fabulous.
00:41 [APPLAUSE]
00:47 I feel very, very lucky to be here tonight.
00:54 We're all very lucky to be even on this Earth
00:58 that we're alive.
00:59 We have one life.
01:01 And I'm glad that I met Robbie Kaplan at the end of mine.
01:05 I'm 80.
01:06 It's not the end.
01:07 Not the end.
01:09 But I'm overwhelmed every day, every day,
01:13 with happiness just for being alive and knowing this woman.
01:19 Swear to God.
01:20 [APPLAUSE]
01:23 She asked.
01:25 She asked.
01:26 That's beautiful.
01:28 So of course, Trump has many other civil and criminal cases
01:31 swirling around him.
01:33 So far, you guys are like the only ones
01:35 who have successfully held into account in court twice.
01:38 So what made your cases so strong?
01:41 Well, you just heard from her.
01:42 What made our case so strong was the amazing, incredible,
01:46 unbelievably courageous E. Jean Carroll,
01:49 who had the guts to face him down twice,
01:52 the second time eye to eye in person.
01:56 And tell a story that no one thought
01:59 anyone would believe until we got 18 different jurors who
02:02 believed it unanimously twice.
02:05 [APPLAUSE]
02:07 That's the reason.
02:10 There's a big difference in the world, in my view at least,
02:13 between what's out there in the media
02:16 and what's out there on social media and the internet
02:19 and what happens in a courtroom.
02:21 It takes a long time in court.
02:22 It's really kind of a pain in the tush in a whole bunch of ways.
02:26 But the rules that apply in a courtroom,
02:29 the rules of evidence, and the juries,
02:32 and a judge who was amazing, Judge Kaplan, no relation,
02:37 really, I think, do an incredible job
02:39 of bringing out the truth.
02:40 And if only Donald Trump were on trial a few more times,
02:43 God willing, before he is up for president,
02:46 I think we may see an even different result
02:48 than we're seeing it today.
02:49 But that is, the truth won out.
02:51 And it won out because we were in a courtroom with Eugene.
02:54 - Wow.
02:54 Well, speaking of, obviously, Trump
02:56 has been on trial over the past few weeks.
02:58 What have you made of this case so far?
03:01 - You know, I'm just--
03:02 no different than anyone else.
03:04 I'm looking at it from the outside.
03:06 So far, the prosecution cases seem to me
03:08 to come in extremely well.
03:10 You have a jury very similar to the jury
03:11 we had in our second trial, because it's
03:13 a jury from Manhattan.
03:14 It was a snow day in our second trial,
03:16 so we had a very Manhattan jury, which I was very happy about.
03:20 And I think his fundamental--
03:22 Eugene was pointing this out on the right here.
03:24 In the opening, Trump's lawyer said that he'd never slept,
03:27 never had any relationship whatsoever with Stormy Daniels.
03:30 And that's been completely disproven.
03:32 So it's just lie upon lie upon lie.
03:35 And when this-- it's like kind of the Ginga game.
03:38 My kid used to play.
03:39 My son used to play.
03:40 When you pull out the bottom thing, everything collapses.
03:44 - Eugene, have you--
03:45 - Paw, paw, paw.
03:45 - Yeah.
03:47 - Yes.
03:48 Eugene, have you spoken to Stormy Daniels?
03:50 - This is the first time I've ever told this story.
03:55 I was at a live comedy show of Kathy Griffin.
04:00 And I was backstage saying, oh, Kathy, it's so fabulous.
04:04 At that time, a very large man with muscles
04:08 popping on each side, huge.
04:11 He came back, and Kathy said, oh, that is--
04:16 she named a famous comedian.
04:17 That's his security.
04:19 And then he stepped forward like he
04:21 was talking to an archbishop introducing the Virgin Mary.
04:27 He said to Kathy Griffin, Miss Griffin,
04:30 Miss Daniels would like to come backstage and see you.
04:34 I heard Stormy--
04:35 I ran up that backstage.
04:38 I ran up to that dressing room.
04:40 I shut the door.
04:42 I took Kathy's dog with me.
04:44 And I sat like this.
04:45 Because if the press, if anybody with all the iPhones,
04:49 if anybody in the audience, if anybody backstage
04:51 had seen Kathy Griffin, Stormy Daniels, and Eugene
04:55 standing in a group--
04:57 - Eugene, you do know this is on the record, right?
05:01 - Oh, yeah.
05:02 I forgot.
05:02 Well, there you go.
05:06 - This was after the verdict.
05:07 - OK, so--
05:08 - Well, they didn't get the photo.
05:09 - We did not meet.
05:11 We did not meet.
05:12 But she sounded very nice.
05:16 - Well, Robbie, always Eugene's attorney.
05:18 So thank you.
05:21 You know, we're seeing events like Harvey Weinstein's
05:24 conviction being overturned in New York.
05:26 What message do you hope that your victory sent to survivors
05:29 in this environment for women's rights?
05:31 - Oh, OK, we're upset.
05:33 But this doesn't stop us, right?
05:36 No, it's just a blip in the road.
05:38 Robbie says we're going to--
05:40 - Change the law.
05:41 - Change the law.
05:43 That's it.
05:43 Well, we're not going to let Harvey Weinstein--
05:46 - Which law are we changing?
05:47 - So in our case, in Eugene's case,
05:49 we were allowed to put on-- the federal rules
05:51 are different than the state rules.
05:52 And we were allowed to put on evidence
05:54 from two prior victims of Trump, one years before what
05:57 happened to Eugene and one years after.
05:59 We kind of bookended it.
06:01 And both of those women talked about the exact same MO
06:04 that Trump used as he used for Eugene.
06:06 He has a tendency to kind of flirt,
06:09 chat it up with a woman, kind of get very friendly.
06:11 And then all of a sudden, when he
06:13 thinks he's in an advantageous position, to pounce.
06:16 And that's what he did to Eugene.
06:17 It's what he did to Natasha Stoynoff.
06:19 It's what he did to Jessica Leeds.
06:21 That was the testimony that was admitted in the Harvey Weinstein
06:24 case as well.
06:25 But the New York Court of Appeals
06:26 said that that wasn't OK.
06:28 New York needs to modernize its law
06:29 so it's similar to federal law and that evidence can come in.
06:33 - So it's strange.
06:35 I think we feel badly because if only two women had come
06:40 forward about Weinstein, the case would have gone
06:45 and it would have stood.
06:47 But because 90 or 100 came forward, they threw it out.
06:51 So it makes us very angry.
06:53 It just makes no sense.
06:56 And I trust that when Robbie says
07:00 we're going to change the law, we're going to change the law.
07:03 Because that is ridiculous.
07:05 That more women who come forward, it doesn't stand,
07:08 doesn't make sense.
07:09 - Kind of an oxymoron, exactly.
07:10 - Yeah.
07:11 - If anyone can do it.
07:12 Well, Eugene, you've said you sued for defamation
07:14 to get your reputation back after Trump really
07:17 lobbed every possible insult at you after you
07:19 said that he assaulted you.
07:21 But in your sense, his insults have
07:23 been amplified by an army of online accounts and bots
07:27 just flinging similar insults at you
07:30 and smearing your reputation.
07:32 What has it been like for you to live with that
07:34 and know that there could be no end to it?
07:36 - Well, there is no end.
07:38 It's fine.
07:39 I'm very-- listen, I won.
07:43 [LAUGHTER]
07:44 [APPLAUSE]
07:46 - Robbie, does it concern you?
07:56 - Yeah.
07:56 [LAUGHTER]
07:59 Yes, we won.
08:00 And yes, the verdict was unprecedented.
08:03 And he deserved every penny that he's going to have to pay.
08:06 But as Eugene said, the vitriol and the hate
08:09 and the threats of violence don't end.
08:12 And that's the world we live in today.
08:13 And I can't tell you I don't go to bed most nights thinking
08:16 about it.
08:16 - I'm sure every woman in this room
08:18 has people saying terrible things on--
08:22 as X on Instagram.
08:24 We all get, you're ugly, you're old, you're shriveled,
08:27 you don't deserve this, you're pathetic, you're hideous,
08:31 you don't deserve to go on.
08:32 We all are getting that.
08:33 I am not unusual.
08:35 Every woman in this room knows exactly what I'm
08:37 talking about, every woman.
08:40 - Wow.
08:42 You know, of course, your victory is meaningful to so many,
08:44 including so many in this room.
08:46 On the other hand, Trump is still the Republican nominee.
08:48 So what does it say to you about our public discourse
08:51 that Trump could be found liable in a case like this?
08:54 And for many millions of voters, it's
08:56 either a non-issue or something that they even rally around?
09:00 - You want to go first, Steve?
09:01 - I think he's going to lose the election.
09:04 Oh, I think he's going to lose.
09:06 I'm not worried.
09:08 I don't care if he's the nominee.
09:10 He's not going to win.
09:11 - What makes you so certain?
09:12 - Because he's behaved like an ass for the last year.
09:16 It's not going to fool enough Americans who
09:21 are really pretty smart.
09:24 He's not going to fool-- he's an ass.
09:27 And he's behaved that way.
09:29 He walked out when Robbie was giving her final argument,
09:33 the argument that told the jury the entire story
09:38 and delivered all the evidence.
09:40 He got it right up in the middle.
09:41 And Robbie was so intense, she didn't even
09:44 know he'd gotten up and walked out.
09:46 The judge had to say, I want to say to the court
09:49 that Mr. Trump has stood and walked out.
09:53 So no, I don't think he's going to win.
09:56 - Robbie, what do you think?
09:57 - Well, as per usual, we're going to play our roles now.
09:59 I worry.
09:59 I definitely worry.
10:03 It's astounding to me that someone
10:07 who has now two unanimous juries have held that he sexually
10:11 assaulted E. Jean Carroll, that anyone would seriously
10:15 consider that person to be a candidate for the presidency
10:17 of the United States.
10:20 But we live in a society today where
10:21 I think for certain segments of the population,
10:23 that's actually appealing, as insane as that sounds.
10:29 But I do hope that there are enough sane people
10:32 and hopefully enough sane women who
10:34 when they go into that voting box
10:35 are not going to vote for the crazy.
10:38 It's not just crazy.
10:39 Crazy, childish, bully, sexual abuser.
10:43 - Yeah.
10:44 Robbie, you've seen our judicial system handle some of the most
10:47 serious issues of our time.
10:48 In addition to E. Jean's case, you spearheaded a lawsuit
10:51 over the white supremacist attacks in Charlottesville.
10:53 You famously--
10:54 - Bankrupted them.
10:56 Bankrupted them.
10:58 - Yes.
10:59 You argued for same sex marriage in front of the Supreme Court.
11:01 The list goes on and on and on.
11:03 But when you look at our judicial system--
11:07 - Don't forget, she jackknifed the don't say gay in Florida.
11:12 That was Robbie Capple.
11:13 - I know.
11:13 We could stay here all night just listing the rest
11:16 of the things on Robbie's resume.
11:18 But when you look around at our national institutions,
11:21 do you think they hold up to another case like this one?
11:24 When you look at the polarized political climate
11:26 in our judicial system, is it as strong as it used to be?
11:28 And what happens if there's another Trump presidency?
11:31 - So we were all talking about this on the ride here today.
11:35 And E. Jean said, what will happen?
11:38 She doesn't think it will happen,
11:40 but what will happen if Trump's elected and my appeals
11:42 continue?
11:42 And I said, well, look.
11:44 In a normal system, under our rules, nothing should happen.
11:48 We will win the appeals.
11:49 His arguments are very weak.
11:51 He has a bond on the $83.3 million.
11:55 He has $5 million deposited with the court.
11:58 When we win the appeals, we should get that money,
12:01 and justice will be served.
12:03 I said, but-- and here's a big but--
12:05 there's this thing out there now called the loss of democracy
12:08 risk.
12:10 And it's a real thing, because we
12:12 talked to financiers about the money that we were holding.
12:16 And they said, it's too much of a risk.
12:18 There's too much of a risk that Donald Trump
12:20 will say, Chubb, don't pay the bond,
12:23 or Southern District of New York, don't pay the judgment.
12:26 I still believe in my heart and my bones
12:28 that that won't happen.
12:29 I think our judicial system, for the most part,
12:32 has held up pretty well.
12:34 But there's a lot of smart people in the world
12:36 that are very worried about that.
12:38 And it's not just for this group.
12:40 It's not just the loss of democracy.
12:42 Imagine if for the first time in our history,
12:45 the president of the United States
12:46 tells Chubb not to pay a bond.
12:48 What's that going to do to the rest of the economy?
12:51 It's some scary stuff.
12:52 But E. Jean says he'll win, so we don't have to worry.
12:55 [LAUGHTER]
12:56 Wow.
12:56 What about when you zoom out, not just this case,
12:58 but the judicial system as a whole
13:01 and our democratic institutions through another Trump
13:03 presidency?
13:05 So of the three branches, I think
13:07 that the judicial branch has, on average, done the best.
13:11 But it's not a lot of competition.
13:13 We had a president who tried to take over, basically
13:16 refused to follow an election.
13:18 We have a legislative branch that basically
13:20 can't get anything done.
13:21 And the level of vitriol and just sheer stupidity
13:25 in Congress is unprecedented.
13:28 For the most part, the judicial branch
13:30 has done a pretty good job.
13:31 These people have lifetime tenure.
13:32 They care about their jobs.
13:34 Does it concern me that the Supreme Court
13:36 has taken so long to decide an immunity issue which is really
13:40 baseless and frivolous?
13:42 It does.
13:43 So I'm hoping that they will stand up for the law
13:46 and for the fact that a president isn't
13:48 immune from committing a crime.
13:52 God, I feel like the voice of doom here.
13:54 But time will tell.
13:55 I'm sorry for that, guys.
13:57 Drink more wine.
13:57 I know I'm a huge downer.
14:00 Yeah, when we get off stage, then the fun will come out.
14:03 So E. Jane, you shared your story about five years ago.
14:07 Where do you see the Me Too movement today?
14:09 How has it evolved?
14:10 Where do you think it's going?
14:11 Where do you think it should go?
14:12 Where is what going?
14:14 The Me Too movement.
14:15 Oh, I think women will.
14:21 I think we've made huge strides in the last 200 years.
14:27 We've made even faster strides in the last 100 years.
14:31 We've made enormous strides since the '60s.
14:34 I think we're going to keep going.
14:36 I think this is a blip.
14:38 I think this is a blip.
14:41 I think we move on because I don't
14:43 think there's any stopping.
14:44 Look at this room.
14:47 These women are making a huge difference.
14:50 This room could rule America, as far as I'm concerned.
14:54 So no, I feel very, very positive.
14:57 I think we're going to go on.
15:01 I don't think we're going to be stopped.
15:02 I really don't.
15:03 We just have to really work hard to help our sisters
15:07 in the South, getting rights back over their own bodies.
15:13 I think we can get that accomplished.
15:15 If Mrs. Melinda Gates in the room,
15:18 I believe she can help us do that.
15:20 We're serious women.
15:26 And a serious woman is an extremely powerful entity.
15:33 And when we get together like this, I am really stirred.
15:37 I mean, I didn't even eat my bread.
15:39 I mean, that's--
15:41 it's very stirring to be in a group like this.
15:44 It can be done.
15:45 The thing is never to despair.
15:47 Never despair.
15:50 Always stay positive to be able to pull off.
15:53 But we've got to pull off.
15:55 Yeah.
15:56 That's how we won the case, guys.
15:57 You just heard it.
15:58 Exactly.
15:59 Never despair.
15:59 [APPLAUSE]
16:00 Yeah.
16:01 Thank you, everyone.
16:04 Well, let's talk about your $83 million.
16:07 So you haven't gotten it just yet.
16:09 Is that-- that's right?
16:10 That's correct.
16:11 Not a penny.
16:12 But, Eugene, you've talked a little bit about this before.
16:14 But what are your plans?
16:15 Oh, well, I'm going to give it to everything
16:17 that Donald Trump hates.
16:18 [LAUGHTER]
16:22 He doesn't want-- he stacks the Supreme Court
16:25 with conservative justices who take away women's rights
16:28 over their own bodies.
16:29 I'm going to put as much as I can
16:32 to gaining women's rights back over our own bodies.
16:35 I'm going to give it to making sure women can become lawyers.
16:41 Particularly mothers who would like to have some scholarship
16:46 assistant.
16:48 And those are my two main driving--
16:53 because he doesn't have a dog, I want to give some to the ASPCA.
16:57 [LAUGHTER]
16:59 That's what I'm thinking.
17:01 That's what I'm thinking.
17:02 And I personally, I'm going to buy a toaster.
17:05 [LAUGHTER]
17:08 That's exciting.
17:09 Oh my gosh.
17:10 So--
17:10 I could definitely use a toaster.
17:12 I could use a toaster.
17:13 That'll be an exciting day.
17:16 So as we talked about, Trump is still the nominee.
17:19 What do you think it would take to actually stop him
17:21 or bring him down?
17:22 Can anything?
17:25 I mean, the one thing that can bring him down
17:27 are the votes of the American people in the next election.
17:30 I don't think short of that, anything can or will.
17:34 But we still have our democracy.
17:36 We still have the power to vote.
17:37 And every goddamn-- excuse my language--
17:39 every single one of us needs to get out and get
17:41 to everyone they know and make sure we all vote.
17:44 And talk to all the women who--
17:46 they may not say it publicly to their friends
17:50 or to their husband, but they know in their hearts
17:52 that he's a sick dude.
17:53 And then he shouldn't be president of the United States
17:56 ever again.
17:56 And that's what they need to do.
17:58 Exactly.
17:59 You agree?
18:00 What Robbie said.
18:01 [LAUGHTER]
18:02 Yes.
18:03 Actually, women could actually win this election.
18:06 It's really-- women could do it.
18:09 Yeah.
18:09 I mean, women could do it.
18:11 Black women, particularly, in the 2020 election stepped up.
18:15 And I think--
18:16 [APPLAUSE]
18:18 Now I think the suburban mothers and the suburban women
18:21 should step up in this election.
18:23 Wow.
18:24 Well, this ties into that.
18:25 What can the women in this room do
18:26 to make this country a safer and more equitable place for women?
18:30 Well, we could all wear shoes like you.
18:32 [LAUGHTER]
18:33 Thanks, Eugene.
18:35 Anything else?
18:37 Yeah, hold them up.
18:38 They're great shoes.
18:39 Oh, they're fun.
18:40 They're from a DVF sample sale, so.
18:41 [LAUGHTER]
18:43 Robbie, what do you think?
18:45 I think we have to stick together.
18:46 I think there's so much in our society that's
18:48 so divisive right now.
18:50 Yeah.
18:50 That there's just so-- and there's
18:52 so many people, including foreign countries, who
18:54 are trying to divide us.
18:55 And don't think that it's not-- that's not happening.
18:57 It is happening.
18:58 And we have to kind of keep our eye on the ball
19:01 and our eyes on the prize.
19:02 Keeping our democracy is a really big deal for our country
19:07 and for the world.
19:08 And we all have to just see that and try,
19:10 to the greatest extent we can, to let all the noise out there
19:14 kind of stay noise and make sure that we--
19:18 that Donald Trump does not become president
19:20 of the United States again and that we stay on this path.
19:23 This great experiment in democracy
19:26 continues for our children and our children's children.
19:29 Well, thank you both so much.
19:31 Thank you.
19:33 [BLANK_AUDIO]