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NewsTranscript
00:00 Thank you, thank you for those good questions and for your engagement and support on the
00:05 creation of the Special Envoy.
00:06 Special Envoy, let's talk through what we hope doesn't happen.
00:10 Several members have raised the pending crisis in El Phasar.
00:13 Just talk about what sort of planning is being done in the event there really is a full-scale
00:19 assault by the RSF and a humanitarian crisis that's even worse than now in terms of protecting
00:25 civilians.
00:26 What planning is happening?
00:27 What do you think you would most need from us?
00:29 What could we do?
00:30 Senator, I sadly don't think I have a great answer to that question.
00:35 We have obviously are very focused on preventing it from happening and looking at all deterrence
00:40 power that we have to prevent that from happening.
00:42 I think that the indications are that the various aid groups from WFP, UNICEF, etc.
00:49 are trying to be prepared for what an influx would look like.
00:52 In Chad, of course, there's a presidential election going on there and there's some spillover
00:57 effects not just humanitarian-wise but in terms of some of the ethnic flows.
01:03 But we have not, I think, one of the biggest differences in my experience in Darfur 20
01:09 years ago or so and now is there was much more discussion of civilian protection mechanisms
01:14 at that point of peacekeeping forces whether AU or UN.
01:19 We don't currently have things in a position that I think would be able to stand up rapidly
01:24 in that context.
01:25 I know USUN has been raising these questions actively with the UN.
01:29 I have raised this with the African Union in terms of possibilities and we will, I think,
01:33 be actually doing some conversations on that later today.
01:37 But I think it's a very fair question to ask.
01:39 It's a good reason to make sure it doesn't happen that we have the fall but continuing
01:43 to look at how we can prepare better for that scenario.
01:46 What are we doing to document atrocities to not just try and prevent human rights violations
01:53 but to document the atrocities that are being committed and to begin to deliver accountability?
01:59 There was discussions earlier about imposing sanctions on specific individuals in the absence
02:05 of any effective and real accountability mechanism, the deterrence for military leaders across
02:13 the country from a range of backgrounds to stop blocking humanitarian access and to stop
02:19 carrying out atrocities.
02:22 There's not much of a deterrent effect.
02:23 I'd be interested in what you think we're doing and what other actors can or should
02:28 be doing to strengthen the deterrence of ongoing atrocities.
02:33 So I think the United States deserves a great deal of credit.
02:37 Thanks to the budgets you all have approved for supporting over 100 different civil society
02:41 organizations, that's probably under-guessing the number, that have been doing everything
02:45 from emergency relief to deterrence and accountability including documentation.
02:52 As you can imagine, we were required to have quite a bit of evidence to move forward with
02:57 OFAC sanctions in the way that we've done.
03:00 We've also seen groups like Raoul Wallenberg and others document abuses and draw from both
03:05 international NGO and Sudanese efforts, often produced with great courage.
03:11 I think there is an effort to ensure, as in past cases, that we can document as much as
03:17 we can.
03:18 We also know that because of the telecom blackouts and because of just rampant harassment, abuse
03:25 and detention of civil society actors, that we have not always gotten a complete record.
03:32 One of the things that to me captures just how invisible and horrific this war is, is
03:37 that we don't have a credible death count.
03:39 We literally don't know how many people have died, possibly to a factor of 10 or 15.
03:44 The number was mentioned earlier, 15 to 30,000.
03:47 Some think it's at 150,000.
03:49 We are now supporting a couple of efforts to use methodologies to document and get to
03:54 that, so we at least know what kind of consequences we're looking at here.
03:59 Some of that has been, again, people operating under extremely difficult situations.
04:07 That's why I think it's important that the United States, probably more than any other
04:10 country, has been supporting civil society efforts in a variety of ways.
04:16 That includes aid delivery, but it also includes issues of local reconciliation efforts that
04:23 are ongoing.
04:24 One of the things that we know is likely, if we are to get a breakthrough on peace,
04:28 is people returning to homes that are destroyed and possibly knowing the person that destroyed
04:34 it living in the same community.
04:36 I think these civil society groups have shown tremendous creativity in Sudan over the past
04:41 few years, and how we think about those kinds of reconciliation efforts in addition to accountability.
04:47 We will continue to support efforts to collect that documentation.
04:52 Senator Van Hollen referenced the trip that he and I took to the UAE, to Kenya, and to
04:58 Sudan to Khartoum back in 2021.
04:59 It was a very hopeful time.
05:02 There was steady progress.
05:04 I've done my best to support Sudan's peaceful revolution, and most importantly, the grassroots
05:10 pro-democracy organizations, the resistance committees, the women's organizations that
05:15 you've referenced.
05:17 Some actors have criticized the negotiation process as really just focusing on two military
05:23 leaders and two militaries, and not emphasizing the importance of returning to the pathway
05:29 towards democracy and the civilian-led pathway towards democracy that was so hard fought
05:36 and hard won.
05:37 You seem clear on this.
05:39 What more could we be doing?
05:42 You can tell there's an interested and engaged Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
05:45 We've had active participation here on a bipartisan basis from a majority of the committee members.
05:51 What more could we be doing to support and strengthen your ability and the ability of
05:56 the United States to engage with actors beyond just these two military leaders to try and
06:01 ensure that we get back to that path towards civilian-led democracy in Sudan?
06:07 Thank you, Senator.
06:08 I think that any effort to show that this committee is hearing from and centering the
06:15 voice of the Sudanese people in the way that you've done in your statements and in your
06:18 speeches, showing that unity of the Sudanese people, not allowing bad actors to claim disingenuous
06:26 lead divisions, again, not that there aren't political divisions, but that those are not
06:29 divisions about the core questions about the future of Sudan, is important.
06:34 I think we would like to see more countries join us in the sanctions effort and other
06:39 punitive measures for bad actors, and that includes our multilateral partners as well.
06:45 I think that interest is growing.
06:48 One of my reasons for hope is that in addition to the advocacy you all have done to elevate
06:54 this in the administration, we've seen the appointment of a UN envoy, we've seen the
06:58 high panel on Sudan become more active, and I again met with the three of them yesterday-ish,
07:08 and it's an incredibly serious and powerful group of people who have a lot of experience,
07:13 I think, that can be brought to bear here, and so we'll continue to try to build that.
07:18 But I think this just goes back to something I want to emphasize in terms of what the strategy
07:23 is, which is we really do have two generals who could end the war tomorrow, if they have
07:28 the courage, they don't, and so the issue is pretty simple.
07:31 How do we create enough political and diplomatic pressure to compel a deal?
07:36 And I think that is where we can continue to work together on what raises the cost of
07:41 pursuing that war on the one hand, and how do we ensure what that peace looks like?
07:46 And again, because of the reasons you've said, I think the goal is sequencing this in a way
07:51 that says we don't need to solve every part of Sudan's problems and challenges, that's
07:57 up to the Sudanese people to do, and rushing those things into these negotiations doesn't
08:02 do a service to them or to those questions.
08:05 We need to reach the limited number of questions that are necessary to end the war and begin
08:10 a restart that civilian transition, again, that wasn't perfect the first time, but learning
08:14 lessons from the last time.
08:15 But if I may, weapons and ammunition continue to flow into Sudan.
08:21 This is a country of 50 million people.
08:23 Somehow from a variety of ways, by air, over land, the means of fighting and continuing
08:29 fighting keep flowing in.
08:31 They're not being manufactured in Sudan, they're being supplied by outside actors.
08:36 Humanitarian relief needs to flow into Sudan at a much higher level.
08:41 By my count, we spent $920 million in fiscal year '23 in supporting Sudanese refugees outside
08:48 of Sudan and in trying to provide humanitarian relief inside Sudan.
08:53 We're going to need to provide much more than that this year.
08:55 I am so relieved and grateful that the $9 billion in humanitarian aid was a part of
09:00 the package that ultimately passed the House and the Senate.
09:04 But if we can't deliver accountability to outside actors and to inside actors that are
09:11 both flowing weapons in and not delivering humanitarian aid, we're not going to be able
09:15 to bring an end to this.
09:17 What's the most important targeted thing we could be doing to raise the costs of blocking
09:22 humanitarian aid delivery and of continuing to provide arms in violation of the UN arms
09:27 embargo?
09:28 Let me actually say a quick word on the aid side and then I'll go to the arms embargo
09:32 question, which is, as you know, that money was not earmarked because of the nature of
09:37 how it went through or not for Sudan.
09:40 I think it is very helpful for the implementing partners to understand how much Sudan is a
09:45 priority and that speed is of the essence.
09:49 We have had good pledges from our partners in Paris.
09:52 We've really been carrying the bulk of the burden ourselves.
09:55 And even within our own system, it's one thing to pledge that money.
09:57 It's another to be seeing food and medicine arrive in addition to the access and blockage
10:02 issues.
10:03 So I think reinforcing both that we expect that to translate into real results on the
10:08 ground and to do so quickly is very important.
10:12 The arms embargo, I want to go back to something Senator Risch said, which is, I think he was
10:16 quoting the UN expert panel or SG, that it's illegal, it's immoral, and it must stop.
10:22 That is existing law and mandate under the existing arms embargo.
10:27 It is certainly something where we are communicating the consequences of violating that.
10:33 This is something we've talked to the African Union and the high-level panel on.
10:37 This is, again, something that affects many of their member states in this conversation.
10:43 And we've seen some very strong statements from a number of the African leaders about
10:47 the importance of enforcing this embargo and ensuring consequences for that.
10:52 So we do think that that is something that is very important.
10:56 And as I said in my earlier statement, there is no one who can claim ignorance here about
11:00 what the RSF's modus operandi is, what it's been historically and what it is right now.
11:06 That is well documented in the public realm in terms of what you are doing if you are
11:13 sending arms to that particular group.
11:17 And with SAF, I think the key message right now is about humanitarian access and need
11:21 to respect international humanitarian law.
11:24 I introduced the Sudan Democracy Act in 2021 just to highlight the urgency of holding military
11:31 leaders accountable for impeding the transition to democracy.
11:35 I'm working to reintroduce a similar piece of legislation in this Congress, and I'm hopeful
11:41 that it's complementary to your efforts.
11:44 What would you most need or expect in legislation that strengthens the urgency of imposing accountability?
11:53 So I think that the Congress across both parties and both houses has been extremely clear about
11:59 their desire for consequences for those that are committing atrocities and those that are
12:04 enabling it.
12:05 And I think that message has been heard in the region and will continue to be heard.
12:09 I think the Sudanese people have felt in many times in this war rendered invisible.
12:16 So even ensuring the funding for civil society, the funding for humanitarian aid, having a
12:21 hearing like this, perhaps a subsequent one with Sudanese diaspora and civil society members,
12:27 all can do that.
12:28 But the key here is to show, I think, the most important thing, and I understand why
12:33 some people doubt this, which is we don't have the luxury of not having hope, of not
12:40 believing this problem can be solved.
12:42 When we say that it can't be solved, it's enabling those that are continuing it.
12:46 This thing could be solved tomorrow if the political will were there of the key actors
12:49 inside and outside.
12:51 And we must be clear that we do not accept the idea of this war continuing, and we are
12:56 going to build the political will across the region to compel it to be over, and that the
13:01 Senate stands in partnership with ensuring that through both raising the costs and being
13:07 prepared to commit to a peaceful and democratic Sudan that will take years of partnership
13:12 to build.
13:13 Thank you.
13:14 That's very well put.
13:15 A nation of 50 million, where there are millions and millions of internally displaced people
13:21 and refugees, 5 million on the very door of famine, and where it resembles the worst conflicts
13:28 I've seen in my time in public service, the DRC, Libya, Yemen, the pernicious impact of
13:34 outside actors, the failure of attention by the international community, the absolutely
13:40 critical role the United States is playing, and the need for regional actors to engage
13:46 and engage forcefully.
13:47 I look forward to working with you on this, Special Envoy.
13:50 I appreciate your leadership.
13:52 I'm going to invite Senator Booker to now join this hearing, and out of the experience
13:58 he recently had with you in traveling to the camps in Chad.
14:02 Senator Booker.