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00:00Hello everyone, you're welcome on Scoop on Scoop.
00:08This is Esther Mhozi, your host, like usual.
00:11This week's episode comes on an intriguing topic about the female clothing choices and
00:18the labeling that attaches to them.
00:21Guys, I'm here with individuals with beautiful minds, very big, big opinions, and we're going
00:27to discuss on this and express our views and values over it as young adults.
00:34Please allow me to welcome the lady on my left.
00:38Thank you very much.
00:39My name's Fiona Mukawashambo.
00:42I'm very delighted, I'm so glad, I appreciate that.
00:45I was very invited about the podcast.
00:49Thank you very much.
00:50You're welcome.
00:51Hello again, my name is Queen Rita, and I am a marketeer and a young adult, and I am
00:57ready to share my views on this very interesting and somewhat delicate topic.
01:05On my right.
01:06Hi, my name is Nisha Gren, I do communications, and I'm very happy to be here.
01:12Thank you for having me.
01:15And I guess the only man in the den.
01:19So my name is Ruganzundo Ruben.
01:21I'm so happy to have honored your invitation, Council Esther.
01:26So a brief background about myself.
01:29I am a criminologist, comedian, actor, at the same time a researcher on crime and livelihoods.
01:39I like that.
01:40So I really believe such a topic would do well so much to have me here, and then I'm
01:46so happy for you to have invited me.
01:48Pleasure is all mine.
01:50Thank you.
01:51Let's jump to it.
01:52We are going to start with what is wearer?
01:56What's clothing?
01:57Like, what is that?
01:58I might not know.
01:59Queen, what is clothing?
02:02I feel clothing is anything that you put on your body in the sense of accessorizing or
02:09keeping yourself warm or just generally that's something that covers your body.
02:15Okay, so if my body is not covered, then it's not clothing?
02:19Well, if you're covered in glitter and you're naked, you're clothed in glitter.
02:23Yes, many people have different versions of how they can express to this, but we are going
02:28to jump to exactly our topic.
02:31Now the first question is how do clothing choices impact a person's perspective on themselves?
02:38Well, I would say personally, I feel like the piece of clothing that I have on literally
02:47impacts how I feel the whole day.
02:49So if I wake up and I'm in a bad mood, then I'm going to put on very bad clothes.
02:55But if I'm in a good mood, then I'll put on something that I really like, be like, okay,
03:01this fits, this goes with the day, goes with my mood.
03:04So yeah.
03:05So like, since we are actually talking about the clothing choices of women, is it true
03:10that women when they wake up and feeling very confident, they decide on the clothing or
03:16people just choose clothing according to how they like it?
03:20Ruben.
03:21Thank you, Esther.
03:22So to talk about the classifications of society and norms plus cultural values, the African
03:31society has tended to forget the prior ways of their norms in terms of dressing.
03:39For example, here in Rwanda, we all know that the mshanana or the mshanana was a common
03:44dress code.
03:46So due to several factors, name it the colonialism, name it copying styles, and more so it affects
03:55the country so much as Rwanda when it comes to a French nation that colonizes it, and
04:03then they deal with a lot of copying styles that every time they have to rule the country
04:10or the colonial state, they have to do as they were doing.
04:15So in that way, we go ahead and copy those cultural specs for the whites, and then we
04:22have lost it all.
04:24We have the miniskirts right now in our country of which we've never had them before.
04:29Before you jump to that, before you jump to that, the way he's bringing it up, it kind
04:35of comes back to our topic as to whether any woman wearing revealing clothes is a slut
04:41or a bitch.
04:43I would like to hear what Fiona thinks about that.
04:46Okay, thank you very much.
04:48For me, when it comes to saying like any woman just wearing revealing clothes, they are being
04:53regarded as sluts or bitches.
04:55Okay, for me, the first thing I just think about, I just feel like, okay, to what extent?
05:01Because for me, maybe when you're going to a club to dance or something, and then just
05:07wearing revealing clothes, I think that's okay for me, but it has to be a little bit
05:11not that revealing.
05:12Because for me, I think, mostly because here in Rwanda, most of the people who we call
05:19sluts or bitches, mostly they're just wearing revealing clothes.
05:23But that, it's very, very much revealing.
05:27So for me, I think, like any woman just wearing revealing clothes, they don't have to be regarded
05:33as sluts or bitches.
05:35Because there's some professional people wearing revealing clothes, just because they're just
05:39out having fun, maybe they just went out with their friends, just wearing revealing clothes
05:46doesn't mean they're sluts or bitches.
05:48You might find those kind of people being engaged in work, they're professional workers,
05:53so it doesn't mean, for me, I just come back to this, if maybe I'm going to work or to
06:00church, there's certain, in certain occasion, there's some clothes I have to wear.
06:05But if I'm going out, maybe it might be hot, I have to put something light, that doesn't
06:12mean you're a slut or a bitch.
06:15Queen.
06:17I think this, as I said before in the beginning, this happens to be such a delicate topic.
06:24Ruben did bring in something about culture, and that also affects how people dress.
06:29And now to address something that you'd mentioned before, how do we choose clothing when we
06:35wake up?
06:37Especially to women, I myself, and this is an example of myself, if I wake up and I feel
06:43very confident, I might choose to put on a pair of heels that I wouldn't normally pick
06:49up if I wasn't feeling that way.
06:52Or I'd choose to maybe wear a suit, you know?
06:58And then, so I think in terms of how we feel, clothing really affects that very much so.
07:06We can choose clothing based on how we feel or based on how we want to feel.
07:10So you might choose, you might look at things and say, okay, maybe I don't feel so good,
07:15but if I put this on and put this on and I match this dress with that shoe and that handbag
07:20and this makeup, I'm going to feel amazing, you know?
07:24And that's how I think in terms of women choosing what to wear, we can choose based on how we
07:31feel or how we want to feel.
07:33And then coming back to what Fiona had just talked about, there is judgment passed on
07:45to women in every aspect of their lives.
07:49And being that if someone looks at you, the first thing that they're going to notice is
07:55you, your body, and how you're dressed, then that becomes a stepping stone to that judgment
08:02and what people think about you and how you're dressed.
08:06I think on my part, I understand that I can dress, I can put on whatever I want, but in
08:16regards to, and this is a personal opinion, in regards to where I'm going or what I'm
08:22doing, I'm not going to, if I feel like I'm going, you're not going to work out at the
08:28gym in like high heels, you know, that's ridiculous because that's not gym wear.
08:34So I feel like every occasion comes with its own outfit or its own choice of clothing,
08:39and that's okay.
08:41And women shouldn't have to be labeled a slut because you went to the club in a short dress
08:48or a short short, or because that's what you felt comfortable in, you know?
08:52And that's okay.
08:53And you labeling me as a slut, there's so many other things people can label women a
09:01slut for.
09:03So before you continue, are you saying that they can be labeled depending on where they
09:09are?
09:10Because you say that if I'm wearing a short and I'm in a club, you labeling me as a slut
09:15is a problem.
09:16So does that mean if I was wearing a short dress, but I'm in the market and then I'm
09:23allowed to be labeled a slut?
09:25Let's hear what she has to say.
09:28Personally, I feel like everyone should wear what they want to wear, whether they're going
09:32to the club, to the market, to sleep.
09:35I feel like what you wear is your opinion, is your own choice.
09:39So no one should be labeled anything for what they wear because it doesn't make any sense.
09:46And what is revealing, revealing?
09:49Like how much of a revealing is revealing?
09:52I feel like revealing goes on with where you are.
09:56So let's say you're at work.
09:58So if you're at work, basically your work has a dress code.
10:02So if you wear something that's not part of the dress code, then maybe that is revealing.
10:08Say a miniskirt, something that shows your cleavage, that doesn't go on with your work.
10:14But something else is most places have their own dress code.
10:19So what you have at your own work may not be what I have at my own work.
10:24So revealing goes with where you are, what you do, and...
10:28Allow me to break through.
10:32So I heard what Quinn talked about, and then my fellow colleague.
10:37If you talk about your feeling that objects you to dress accordingly to your mood or the
10:46situation you're in, I think some of us are forgetting that we need social regulations.
10:54The laws are meant to regulate us.
10:57For example, we have women who are meant to be future mothers.
11:01You will know about that.
11:03How you feel at the moment, you have a juvenile seeing.
11:07This brings us to juvenile parenting.
11:09If you read the book written by Gerald, this is a former running ambassador in Israel.
11:17He has a book entitled A Holistic Approach to Human Capital, Foundations Matter.
11:23So this book, in his chapter of juvenile parenting, talks about what a woman does, the juveniles
11:30are seeing.
11:32So regardless of whatever, actually even in our ancient tradition of society, we talk
11:36about a mother holding a child on the back.
11:41Whatever they do, the kids learn.
11:43If the mother is a thief, believe you me, the kid has to be a thief in one way or another.
11:50So I, as someone who is objecting some social modern ways of mood and relations, I come
11:59in as a traditionalist as well as a law specialist.
12:06So I come to the aspect of criminal-related offenses.
12:11For example, the attire we have nowadays gives me a recap or a precedence of Jack the Ripper.
12:17Have you guys heard about Jack the Ripper?
12:19Yes.
12:20So in the ancient BC, in the UK, Jack the Ripper used to target women.
12:27And you know what he used to do to women?
12:29No.
12:30You just have to research about it.
12:31But it's so interesting.
12:32This is learning when a woman undress her, but being enticed by the dressing code.
12:38And actually, it's three out of five, most of those women were prostitutes on streets,
12:45London streets, East London, having open thighs, trying to pull up the man's manhood, you know?
12:56So I remember in society, to break it a little bit short, we have in crime and mental disability,
13:02we have what they call mania disease.
13:05It's a mental illness in men mostly.
13:07In that even a mad woman on streets, when they're naked, they can attract me.
13:14Even when I'm an office man, I can be attracted to a mad woman.
13:17That's why you see most of the mad women, cases are there.
13:21Mad women are pregnant, they even have children on streets.
13:24So I believe there should be regulation, Ms. Esther.
13:29Societies have to be regulated.
13:31It is not only how you feel that you'll dress according to your mood, somewhere, somehow,
13:37we need regulation.
13:38That brings me back.
13:39Can I please talk with you, yeah?
13:43You did say, and I'm going to try and coach you as much as I can, you're a traditionalist,
13:48a criminologist, of which I share that passion.
13:52And then you also talked about the social norm, the social structure, and what that
13:58looks like, okay?
14:02Let's bring it to, let's talk with the traditionalist first, right?
14:07There is the aspect that we were colonized as an African nation, and we're colonized
14:11by a French country, of which we had to adapt to some of their culture, and there was culture
14:18infusion and all.
14:21But as a traditionalist, you also have to remember that our tradition did not really
14:25clothe a woman fully.
14:27We were out here, there were two outfits allowed for a woman.
14:32As a young child, a young child being from a baby to a certain age, I want to say around
14:39seven, eight, you were not really entitled to any clothing.
14:43If your parents decided you are allowed clothing, you got clothing, a hide, a very small hide.
14:49And the moment you started to develop breasts and become an adolescent, you were allowed
14:55a tiny hide to just cover the front of your body and somewhat of your back.
15:03But in Shaburi, thank you, that was the name, in Shaburi, that was the clothing of a young
15:07lady.
15:09And then as you got married, they would give them a longer hide, which is the mushanen.
15:15Now the longer hide was mostly dedicated because you were breastfeeding as a mother.
15:20So that was to protect your source of meal for your babies, so that you don't have to
15:28give your babies.
15:29Queen, are you saying we should go back to wearing in Shaburi?
15:32No, I'm saying we cannot fully blame the culture fusion to the things that we have today.
15:44And socially speaking, there is a reason as to why we were limited in clothing at the
15:50time.
15:51The regulation.
15:52Yeah, exactly.
15:53Allow me, allow me, allow me to come back.
15:55There's this incident that happened in Kampala.
15:58I was watching it, actually.
16:00A lady was wearing a very short dress.
16:04So for starters, the wind came, a wind.
16:09Like it was, you know, you know, these dresses that are fluffy, you know, I'm talking about
16:12they're wearing because it's the mood, you know, it's hot and all that.
16:18You got that.
16:19So this lady was wearing a very fluffy, short dress, which was round.
16:23The wind came and it just flew it up.
16:26Yeah.
16:27Guys, motorcycle men, bikers, people in the market, everyone was screaming at her, sluts,
16:34a bitch, put on your clothes.
16:36And then I saw women, mothers, they started come running with cloaks to try to cover her
16:42up.
16:44So when we go back to it's our, you know, like what Anisha said, it's our right to wear
16:51what we want.
16:53It's about the mood or where we are going and et cetera.
16:56That kind of makes me wonder, what are the impacts, you know, because yes, you're choosing
17:05to wear this, but what are the effects of your clothing?
17:09Because this, this woman, I believe she will never wake up from that traumatization.
17:12Okay.
17:13Let me, let me talk about something, you know, like, like all of us right here, you know,
17:17we understand something about accident.
17:19You might be wearing like a long clothes and then you just, you know, you sleep on something
17:23and then, you know, you fall down and then, you know, like maybe your parts may be revealed.
17:27It doesn't mean like, cause maybe that the girl who had like the fluffy, the fluffy dress
17:31doesn't mean like, cause, um, she regrets that cause you might be wearing like a very
17:35long skirt and then you sleep and then you fall down and then you, some of your parts
17:39are revealing.
17:40Does it, does it mean you're a bitch?
17:41Moderator, you need to cut her short.
17:44Okay.
17:45I, I several times wonder why women who defend such kind of a stick never appear to have
17:52a miniskirt.
17:53If I can stand and walk around this table or podium, no one has a miniskirt.
17:57Secondly, secondly, secondly, secondly, I believe any female chauvinist has to stand
18:07for that goal.
18:08One, me, I would appreciate you, I would appreciate you Fiona, I would appreciate you Nisha if
18:12you came straight to this podium with a miniskirt because this is the right topic to defend
18:16it.
18:17Thirdly, we have an issue with women in public.
18:21Why do you dress up shortly and then later we see you pulling, pulling, pulling down.
18:28That is a sign of being uncomfortable.
18:31So when, when I talk about issues to deal with miniskirts, let me give you a brief history
18:35about miniskirts.
18:36Okay.
18:37In 19, in 1955, uh, there is a British designer named Mary Quant.
18:43Mary Quant had to set a fashion buzzer.
18:47So this buzzer was pulling out or enticing the Illuminati society.
18:53Illuminati society, I don't want to have the perspective of several people, what they think.
18:59No, these are the elite, the elite people, people who are wise, those who can invent.
19:05So Quant had to put up that fashion buzzer and then do you know how many people appeared?
19:12There appeared, uh, young girls and women, mothers, politicians, musicians, those in
19:18the fashion design industry, models and stuff.
19:23But you know, his, uh, her measurement for a miniskirt was, that was just 10 centimeters
19:30below the buttocks.
19:32I'm just imagining 10 centimeters below the buttocks with these society norms we have.
19:38Okay.
19:39So the elites invent, but the invent, the inventing something that will lead us astray
19:45also has to be put into consideration.
19:48I remember, uh, when we had our classes about world war, you remember the effect of women
19:53to have, to put on jeans.
19:55It was never allowed before, but after the first world war, that's when we started seeing
19:59women in modern Europe have jeans on.
20:03You know why this came about?
20:05Because women were fighting for their rights.
20:08Talk about the, uh, the women's rights movement, uh, 1848, 1948, sorry.
20:15So, uh, you, you see most of the women were fighting for their rights to have them have
20:20the gender equality as that of men.
20:24But again, you cannot fight for these rights to an extent that you lose your way as women.
20:31We know a woman, actually even in modern Europe as well as Africa, we know a woman to be a
20:36calm future leading lady for the juveniles in society.
20:42No wonder that's why we have crimes increasing in society.
20:46Mr. Ruben, when you're saying crimes, just be specific, like, let me be specific, let
20:51me be specific.
20:52Okay.
20:53Uh, high rates of, uh, rape and defilement.
20:58Where do you find them?
21:00We have hotspots already.
21:02We know them.
21:03Okay.
21:04You know, in sport clubs, feeling free.
21:06You want to be flappy in your, in my short dress.
21:11We have a lot of criminals in bars, intoxicated with marijuana, talk about any type of drugs,
21:18you know, ice and ETC, even alcohol itself.
21:23That is the area you're talking about to be free and do what you want.
21:25But that is a crime.
21:26I'm sorry.
21:27I'm sorry.
21:28I have a question.
21:29So you're saying the amount of rape cases that is there right now is there because people
21:36are wearing a dress code, actually limited, limited dress code has, has hiked the rate
21:44of crimes in society.
21:45I will give you two.
21:46One, we have rape.
21:47Second, we have defilement.
21:48The rest, unmeasured.
21:49Okay.
21:50Thank you very much.
21:51As you said about, about the rape case, cause like women, we are living through this increases
22:01to like some of the crimes such as rape.
22:04And I just, I'd like to talk about, as we see, like as, as they did analysis or research,
22:10you know, we even have some cases for, for the people, for the people who have kids like
22:14little kids, little daughters, would you tell me like those kind of, you know, being a rapist,
22:19I think it's like a little bit being disabled or something or thinking about thinking about
22:23something because you might see some of the girls that are being raped, not because they're
22:26just wearing living clothes, just maybe because someone has a disabled mind or something.
22:31Let me tell you something.
22:32That's some little kids or daughters.
22:33They have like five, five years.
22:34They're just having wearing long clothes.
22:35I think they're being raped.
22:36Honestly, there are some of them.
22:40So just for me being, cause as we know, human beings have control, we can control ourself.
22:45You're a guy, as you said, you're being attracted like so much.
22:48You may look at a girl and then you'll be like, okay, this girl is wearing living clothes.
22:52And then you just, you know, you focus on your things, you mind your business.
22:55But when you see someone as when you're a rapist, you don't care about their clothes.
22:59You don't care about what they're just wearing.
23:01You'll be like, okay, this girl is so cute.
23:03This girl is attractive.
23:04I'm going to rape her.
23:05That's what happens.
23:06Maybe before, before we divert to, to this whole conversation that we are having, which
23:10is about the choices of women dressing and you know, the, the labeling that attaches
23:15to it.
23:16Please, Queen, please kind of bring, bring it out to, let's go back to the scenario that
23:22I gave.
23:23How do you think, what do you think was the cause of, of, of whatever happened to, you
23:29know, to happen to that women that was walking on the street like that?
23:34I think there was a mix of a few different things in there.
23:39There was the fact that she was wearing a short dress, that, that was her choice, right?
23:45The wind being there and fluffing it up, that, well, that was an accident.
23:49That was just a Monroe.
23:51Do you think, do you think, excuse me, do you think if she was wearing a long dress
23:56or a trouser?
23:57Moderator, be clear.
23:58Had it been a Gomez.
23:59Okay.
24:00Let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me,
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28:02Nishat also talked about it like,
28:05Ruben did mention that while we standing
28:09on a stance for miniskirts
28:10and we're not dressed in miniskirts, right?
28:14Occasion comes in in the sense that
28:17this is where the social norms comes in, right?
28:19Social norms, laws and regulations,
28:21they're here not to hinder us, but to protect us.
28:25That's why they're there, right?
28:26And so if you are-
28:28Yes, exactly.
28:32So if you are in an office, right?
28:36As a man, if you wake up in the morning,
28:38you do not, you don't decide on what you wear
28:42because of your thinking like,
28:43oh, if I wear this, then I'm going,
28:44if I wear short shorts, I'm going to affect some woman's,
28:48you know, sexual being or something like that, right?
28:50You choose that based on what you feel comfortable in
28:53and what makes you feel more confident
28:55and ready to do your work.
28:57As for a lady, she cannot wake up and think for Ruben,
29:03you know, she can't go in her wardrobe and pick out,
29:06it's like, okay, if Ruben sees me in red,
29:08he's going to be excited, so I shouldn't put on red.
29:11In that sense-
29:12Repeat that.
29:13I cannot dress with you in mind,
29:16I dress with me in mind, okay?
29:18Period.
29:19And I dress with what I'm going to do in mind, all right?
29:22To what percentage do you give it?
29:24So in the sense of-
29:25There's literally no-
29:26How many women wake up and they're like,
29:28I'm not dressing for a man?
29:30100%.
29:31Which one?
29:32It's 100%.
29:32Give me the percentage.
29:33Literally 99.9999999%.
29:37That's 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0.
30:07You know, as a man, you said you, as a man,
30:09you have excitements and that's all right.
30:11That's, as a healthy man, you should.
30:13But then again, as a healthy man,
30:15you should have the power to control yourself, right?
30:18And I should not, you should not police me
30:20because of how you feel.
30:21Feel, exactly.
30:23Let me be straight, moderator.
30:24If I could answer, if I could answer her so fast.
30:27Go ahead, go ahead.
30:27So, you know, society has been built on stones,
30:31actually the 10 stones.
30:33If I talk about the 10 stones, I mean BC back in the days.
30:37So, we are looking at women having the beauty
30:43and having features that can ignite a man.
30:46Are you saying that women in the back time
30:50did not have the features?
30:51They had, they had.
30:52That's why I'm bringing the law.
30:53That's why I'm bringing the law.
30:54That's why I'm bringing the law.
30:56Do not admire one's what?
30:59Wife.
31:00So, that is, yeah, I'm giving you a stick.
31:03These are regulations that were put in place
31:06to do something on men, right?
31:08For men, not on.
31:10If you're talking about a patriarchal society,
31:13we shall also say, Jesus, you forgot about men.
31:16We have some women who are still admiring men
31:19and there is never a stone that says.
31:22I think that goes for both.
31:24No, it's not for both.
31:26It is straight.
31:27Women are meant to be admired.
31:29Let me tell you, women are meant to be admired.
31:32You will have your features
31:34and some of them are even so sensitive
31:36that you will cover them.
31:37If you talk about our Asian dress code
31:39for the African society,
31:41we covered the nipples.
31:42You know, you're aware?
31:43Not us.
31:44We covered the parts.
31:46So, for the thighs, we had regulations.
31:49Whoever was caught in such an act,
31:51they were crucified or killed.
31:53You were stoned to death.
31:54You are aware of that?
31:55Not here, not here, not in Rwanda.
31:56No, this brings me back to talking to you
31:58as a criminologist.
31:59Yes, please.
32:00You said that clubs were a criminal hub
32:02and now that brings me.
32:03It is a hotspot.
32:04It's a hotspot.
32:05Yes, for criminal offenses.
32:07So, should women be doing the justice system's work?
32:11Yes.
32:12Because as a justice system,
32:13you have failed women to protect them from such places.
32:16Should do it.
32:16The issue is, the issue is.
32:17Because if I can't go to a club
32:18or a restaurant or a church
32:20or if I can't walk at night and feel safe
32:24because a man cannot control his desires,
32:26irregardless of what I wear.
32:29You see, moderator, there are two items.
32:32We have fashion and we have regulatory
32:36and we have measurements in place.
32:38I'll give you an example.
32:40Queen, the Rwandan government has regulated several times
32:44videos or images that appear on TV stations
32:47that display women having naked.
32:50I even remember there is a song of the urban boys
32:52with Jackie Chan Ru, a Ugandan artist, female artist,
32:56whereby this song was released and it was a hit.
32:59But this song was never played on TV station.
33:02You know why?
33:03Because the government is regulating.
33:05Now, we're talking about fashion.
33:07What did this artist, as a female artist,
33:09opt for to appear in a video, music video?
33:14We're asking ourselves, what has the music industry done
33:17to protect the society in terms of dress code,
33:22it's fashion, we're giving you the allowance
33:24to have what you have.
33:25Queen, I would be happy if you were my wife
33:27if I come back from work and you have a miniskirt.
33:30You're trying to put me in the mood to go to bed.
33:33That is very amazing.
33:35So, I will not be happy to see Queen having a miniskirt.
33:38Me, as a man, as a traditionalist,
33:40you, Queen, going to the club,
33:43well knowing it is a hotspot for criminal offenses,
33:47igniting the criminals in the club,
33:49intoxicated with marijuana, drugs, and alcohol.
33:53And they will put you out.
33:54I will lose my cool.
33:55Let's come back.
33:56Okay, this is one thing you've been confused about.
34:00It doesn't mean like if, maybe if Queen is going to,
34:03okay, Ghana is another example.
34:05We don't have to use Queen.
34:06If a girl goes to a club, and then the girl is your wife,
34:10does it mean like, maybe like,
34:11Uganda Law Circus, she went to a club?
34:14No.
34:15Let's come back, let's come back to,
34:18it doesn't matter to where you are,
34:21because we are focusing a lot on the club,
34:23but there's a church, there's a market,
34:25there's school, there's work.
34:26So, let's go back to the question that I had asked you.
34:33What is the decency of ladies,
34:38or, yeah, depending on where they are?
34:41In my opinion, I think you should dress depending,
34:45you should be dressed depending on where you're going.
34:47So, if you're going to the office,
34:49you dress like the office.
34:50Now, those, there's places where they're like,
34:54oh, okay, so you can dress however you want.
34:56That way, they've left the reins in your coat,
34:59so you can wear whatever you want.
35:02And whatever you want being something
35:03that you're comfortable in, right?
35:06And I don't, I would say if you're going,
35:09so there is women who go to church,
35:12and she's like, okay, if I feel like a dress
35:15that's slightly above my knees, that's not short enough.
35:19That's okay, I can take that to church.
35:21But then there is also a woman who feels
35:22I can't go to church if I'm not wearing a dress
35:24that touches my ankles.
35:27That plays into the sense of place,
35:31and the, exactly, how you feel,
35:34and how, what that affects in you.
35:37So, if you feel like, if I'm sitting in church,
35:39and the dress is above my knees,
35:41I'm going to feel uncomfortable,
35:42I'm going to, you can't, you're not going
35:45to choose that dress.
35:46But then you're going to be sitting next to a mother
35:49who is in a bust-down boo-boo,
35:51and she's like, yes, we're here to praise Jesus.
35:54And we're okay with that, right?
35:56I do feel that, and this does not,
35:58I think this doesn't apply to only women.
36:02This should apply same to men.
36:05Except the society and the way it's arranged
36:09and regulated, it favors men.
36:12So is that, is that you, is that me hearing you say
36:15that men are not labeled according to what they wear?
36:17No, they're not, because coming back
36:19to that Kampala incidents, the woman,
36:21it was an accident, true.
36:23But the reactions of the people,
36:25the judgment was passed on so quick
36:27she couldn't even think about it.
36:29That's the trauma.
36:30The trauma does not come from the fact
36:31that she woke up, got into a dress,
36:33and say, yes, I feel good, I'm going to go out in this.
36:35But then an accident happens,
36:37and then people are abusing her,
36:39they're almost throwing stones at her,
36:41because of how she's dressed.
36:43A small interjection.
36:43It's not about what you wear,
36:46it's about keeping up the judgment.
36:46There is something that is itching me.
36:49You see, Queen, Queen, with all your beauty,
36:51with all your beauty, we have failed
36:54to classify two things up to now.
36:57First of all, it is better for us
36:59to hail the founder of a miniskirt, isn't it?
37:04Because this brings out, actually it has caused
37:06a lot of discussions about fashion design for women,
37:09who cause a lot of ignition in terms
37:11of erection towards men, attraction, and DTC.
37:16Mary Quant, in the 1950s, introduced a miniskirt.
37:21A miniskirt, best level, administered or well-known,
37:25was 10 centimeters, 10 centimeters below your buttocks.
37:31So, how do we come to this current modern society
37:34to define what a miniskirt is?
37:36Some of you have actually introduced business
37:38to miniskirts.
37:39Nisha, girls, ladies, my fellow ladies,
37:44they have failed to understand the clothing choices
37:48that are revealing, even when it comes to the weather.
37:52You might meet a lady wearing a very short shirt
37:55and it's raining.
37:56And of course, that depends on the person,
37:58like Queen has said.
37:59So if we go on understanding that, ah, my personality,
38:02I did not feel cold, so I put on a shirt,
38:04or whatsoever that is, please enlighten us
38:07to what do you think is the right out things
38:10depending on the weather?
38:13Well, I feel like I'm not the right person for that
38:16because any day, any time, I'll cover myself up.
38:18But like, what I would say is, I'm not,
38:22we as Rwandans are not in the right headspace
38:26or like environment to classify our weather.
38:28We literally just have sun and rain.
38:31So if you are in the rain, get yourself a raincoat
38:35on top of your miniskirt, if that's what you want.
38:38If it's hot outside, then dress lightly.
38:42But I feel like everyone should actually dress
38:45however they want.
38:47If it's like Fiona said, if it's very hot outside,
38:50it can get very hot around here,
38:53then I have the right to wear a vest without saying,
38:57oh my God, Ruben might look at me like that.
39:00This is a legend.
39:02I am hot.
39:03This is a legend.
39:03I am hot.
39:04I am hotter than hot.
39:06I have to.
39:07Thank you for bringing me to this podcast.
39:09To be labelled, to be labelled,
39:12I'm the greatest contributor.
39:13You are literally the person that said you're local.
39:16This is interesting.
39:17Let's come back, let's come back.
39:20The ones that are following us,
39:21we are discussing on the topic of women clothing choices
39:25and what is labelled, mostly to what is called a slat.
39:29Let me remind you of what happened to a fellow lady
39:33who went to attend, I do not remember what concert
39:37this was exactly, but you all remember,
39:38a lady that was put on social media everywhere
39:41because she was wearing clothes that were showing off.
39:46I would like to give everyone one second
39:50to come with a conclusion of really as to whether
39:54ladies should just wear any howly
39:56because it's how they woke up,
39:57it's their mood, it's their choice.
40:00And to end up with how does this affect the society
40:04and our young siblings that are still up in the upcoming
40:08if we really want them to be like us.
40:10We'll start from my left, Quinn.
40:13All right, this was a very insightful podcast.
40:17Thank you for having us.
40:19I feel like we've actually opened a realm
40:22into other understandings and other topics
40:25that we'll hopefully have to discuss some other time.
40:28Hopefully on Scoop on Scoop or maybe off mic.
40:32But either way, I feel this was very insightful,
40:35very knowledgeable, very different perspectives
40:37from once again, beautiful minds.
40:40I would like to say on this very topic,
40:42my conclusion is that people, women,
40:47women shouldn't be policed by men in society.
40:52And I feel as if we've earned the right
40:56to be our own individuals,
40:59then we also have the right to pick out
41:01what we want to wear depending on the occasion,
41:04depending on the place.
41:06And irregardless of how a woman dresses,
41:13it doesn't give you any right to violate her
41:16in any sense of the way.
41:18Because-
41:19Or call her a slut.
41:20Or call her a slut, which is also verbal violation.
41:22Guys, don't be overly abusive.
41:25So yeah, so in that sense,
41:28a woman can have the right to dress how she wants,
41:31and that is her right.
41:32And you as an onlooker,
41:35you have the right to have the power
41:37to control whatever address you have.
41:40Nice.
41:41And they should be protected within that right.
41:42And well said, Fiona.
41:44Okay, thank you very much.
41:46I'd just like to say a little bit support,
41:50Ruben, about something.
41:53We have rights to just wear what we want.
41:57But I'm just like,
41:58we know in the society there's some extremists.
42:01You know, it can't just be like,
42:03because women are just being given the rights
42:05to just wake up and just wear what they want,
42:07there might be some extremists,
42:09they're just gonna wake up,
42:10then they're gonna put bikini,
42:12they're gonna go in a public place.
42:13That means, as we said earlier,
42:16like, we have to have some of the rules that guide them.
42:23They'll be like, okay, this is allowed,
42:26if you do this, you're gonna be extreme.
42:29As Esther asked me about the question,
42:32she said, maybe me, Fiona,
42:34as I want to be a minister or something,
42:37they kind of have to give to the little girls out there
42:41that are just looking at me,
42:42because by then I'll be like their role model.
42:44I have to wear appropriate,
42:47because as I run this,
42:49I'm a lawyer, they're just selecting about laws.
42:53Sometimes the sources of laws,
42:55they're based on customs.
42:56So we just, we don't have to look forward
42:57and they just be like, okay,
42:58just because I wanna wear this one,
43:01I have to put in mind that,
43:03as we know the customs,
43:05they have to be some restrictions.
43:06I'd be like, I might feel what I want,
43:07but I'd be like, this is prohibited.
43:10This is extreme.
43:11Thank you very much.
43:12Well said.
43:13Please, Nisha.
43:16I feel like everyone has said a lot.
43:18What I would like to say is,
43:20I don't know what Fiona said.
43:24We do want to wear what we want,
43:26what we are comfortable wearing,
43:29but then we also have to think about
43:30where we're going, what we're doing,
43:32who is with us.
43:33That is something we should consider.
43:35But also, on what you said
43:40about little kids and whatnot,
43:43I feel like what I wear
43:47doesn't necessarily mean I am a bad parent.
43:49I'm not out here wearing a miniskirt
43:52and you label me a bad parent
43:54because my kids saw me wearing something revealing.
43:58What I wear doesn't necessarily mean
44:00I'm teaching my child exactly that.
44:03I could have my own morals
44:04and then teach them to be good people
44:07and then wear what I want as well.
44:09So I feel like it's a really huge spectrum,
44:12this whole thing,
44:13and there can't be a pinpoint
44:16on what someone should have to do.
44:18Sure, sure.
44:18Sure, yeah.
44:20Yeah, Ruben.
44:21Thank you, moderator.
44:22I feel like today you put me on the space
44:25of being at the arc of fire for each and every one,
44:29but at the end of it all,
44:31I'm glad that Councilor Fiona
44:33is rhyming onto the line of cultural norms
44:37and social norms, even the law.
44:40But to conclude,
44:42I would really want to discuss three points.
44:46One, the laws are not going to help protect you
44:51in the night wearing a mini because it's your right.
44:53Yes, the women's rights movement
44:58under the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights
45:01really does specify that you should have the gender equality,
45:06but this gender equality has to be measured as well.
45:09The measurement is, as she said,
45:11we have a lot of psychopaths in society.
45:13We have mentally disabled people in society.
45:16I keep on talking about this mental illness in men.
45:19Actually, surprisingly,
45:20in the World Health Organization research 2016,
45:26they discovered that only 1% of the men
45:29are not suffering from this disease of mania.
45:32You know mania I'm talking about?
45:33I would like to clarify.
45:35You see, a man being easily aroused
45:38to have sex with anyone they see,
45:41actually, do not talk about even the men's skirt.
45:43I could see you and imagine how sweet you are,
45:46how sexy it could be in me having you.
45:50I'm literally making imaginations even before having sex.
45:53That is a big disease in our minds as men.
45:56The 1% that is surviving, I don't know who belongs to 1%.
46:02Among us all the men in this world.
46:04Actually, surprisingly, if you captured five people
46:08like we have here,
46:10World Health Organization research again mentions,
46:13actually, this is recent, I think 2020,
46:16they mention that among us the five,
46:18one is mentally ill.
46:21Ask yourselves, who is mentally ill around us right now?
46:24You feel like we know.
46:25Anywhere you go, the sample you go,
46:29the sample you take anywhere in society,
46:31pick randomly, Queen, Fiona, Esther,
46:35pick Nisha and pick me.
46:37There has to be one person.
46:39Research has found it out.
46:41Can I guess?
46:41Let me conclude on that.
46:43Let me conclude with my second point.
46:46We should also think about the intentions of the elites
46:50introducing such fashion in the world of attire.
46:56We should think about our social attire.
46:59Think about who is going to regulate.
47:01Parliament will set laws,
47:03but these laws also need help and support
47:06from we ourselves as individuals in society.
47:09And who comes first?
47:11It is the mothers.
47:12You are the backbone of everything.
47:13We are having wars.
47:14It is you and the children we are setting first.
47:17We don't know what kind of behaviors
47:18you're gonna teach them if we set you aside
47:20and we are busy fighting.
47:22So I really think women have to be conscious
47:26with our young kids.
47:28The juveniles learn very fast,
47:30and it is very sensitive.
47:31You talked about a mother having a shabby dress code.
47:35A shabby dress code, I'm talking about
47:37having a miniskirt when your kid is even a teenager.
47:40At that point, there are higher chances
47:42of your kid learning from you.
47:44Believe you me.
47:45If you get a miniskirt and then you have, yes.
47:48So to conclude, I refer all the podcast members
47:54who have come here today to go and read this book,
47:58A Holistic Approach to Human Capital Foundations Matter.
48:01You really see a huge interesting path
48:03when it comes to juvenile parenting,
48:06dress code, feeding, education.
48:10Those are factors of fundamental foundation of the kid.
48:15So really, I'm so happy to be here, Esther.
48:19Thank you for inviting me.
48:20Next time, please invite me.
48:22We shall be ready to share more.
48:23These people have been interesting as well.
48:25Thank you.
48:25Thank you very much.
48:26This was Scoop on Scoop.
48:27You're welcome on more hotter and hotter topics
48:30for young adults, youth, and everyone at large.
48:33Let's fight these societal norms
48:35and let's fight against all these things
48:38that do not put together the beautiful world
48:42that we want to live in and where our offsprings will live.
48:45It's upon you.
48:46It's upon me.
48:47It's upon everyone.
48:48Thank you.
48:50What the f***?
48:51What the f*** was that?
48:52What was that?