Forbes Breaking News
  • last year
The Georgia Senate Special Committee on Investigations held a hearing on Friday on Fulton County Da Fani Willis.

Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:

https://account.forbes.com/membership/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=display&utm_campaign=growth_non-sub_paid_subscribe_ytdescript


Stay Connected
Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes
Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes
Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes
More From Forbes: http://forbes.com
Transcript
00:00:00you the chief financial officer of Fulton County so I appreciate your
00:00:05cooperation with me to arrange a good time we could be as less inconvenient to
00:00:11each of you as possible I also want to thank you for your responsiveness to a
00:00:17subpoena that we had issued that asked for maybe more information that even I
00:00:22recognize might be responsive to it and I have a notebook here that you've
00:00:27provided with us and I understand there will be additional documents coming if
00:00:31you want to just supplement those I've spoken with your county attorney as able
00:00:37here in the next few days or weeks I would appreciate that but I I did want
00:00:41to thank you for for making the effort to to be responsive on relatively short
00:00:46notice here and thank you for being here with us today would you just introduce
00:00:53yourself and and have Sharon introduce herself to the committee please sir I'm
00:00:58Rob Pitts I make sure I get you lit up here there we go all right I'm Rob Pitts
00:01:04I chair the Board of Commissioners of Fulton County Georgia and share a good
00:01:11morning Sharon Whitmore the county's chief financial officer you can pull
00:01:15that microphone closer to you if you want to we had a little difficulty last
00:01:18meeting sometimes the volumes kind of fading in and out a little bit that
00:01:23will allow us to hear you clearly and also this is being streamed live and so
00:01:27anybody that may be watching on their computers at home I'll be able to hear
00:01:31the testimony that you give I am gonna start with a couple of formalities here
00:01:38we have in your folders ladies and gentlemen the minutes from our first two
00:01:44meetings the first one was held on February 9th 2024 the Secretary of the
00:01:50Senate has prepared these minutes and maybe a little tedious of a job but easy
00:01:56because we are recorded and so it's very easy to verify the accuracy I did notice
00:02:02Senator Estevez we misspelled your name on one of them I think and we will well
00:02:08two on both of them we will correct that and I told them you being an attorney
00:02:13it's gonna be hard to slip anything by you on these so we will we'll correct
00:02:17those spellings as part of any approval of these meetings have you all had an
00:02:23opportunity we sent these out in advance to review these minutes before today any
00:02:29committee members need additional time to review them before we take action
00:02:33all right then I am open for a motion to approve the minutes of the February 9th
00:02:382024 meeting I've got a motion by Senator Dolezal is there a second second
00:02:46by Senator Kennedy any discussion or any review proposed changes or corrections
00:02:50to the minutes of February 9th all right then all in favor raise your hand any
00:02:57opposed like sign all right those are approved now turning to the March 6th
00:03:022024 meetings everybody had an opportunity to review these thoroughly
00:03:07all right is there a motion with the amendment of the spelling correction got
00:03:16except that motion is there a second second all right any further discussion
00:03:21on that and likewise we will vote all in favor raise your hand of approving those
00:03:27minutes any opposed all right they are unanimously adopted you will also notice
00:03:34put us in your your folder just a copy of our Senate committee rules I put
00:03:39these in here because we did have some questions posed to us from the Fulton
00:03:46County Commission as they were preparing their responses to to make sure what
00:03:51their timeliness was and how to object I would like to state to you chairman pits
00:03:58and and and miss Whitmore y'all should be aware that we have confidentiality
00:04:03rules on this committee if there are any documents responsive to our subpoena
00:04:08that you feel like contain confidential information that should not be disclosed
00:04:15to the public because we are creating a public record here please identify those
00:04:19to me and I will in accordance with our rules deem them confidential and shielded
00:04:25from public view I know that just in conversations with your your county
00:04:33attorney I know Sue has told me there are certain things that she has redacted
00:04:37in these if anything that dealt with the birth date Social Security numbers health
00:04:42information of any of the employees of the county and that is certainly fine
00:04:47that's what we're trying to accomplish to make sure that we are protecting
00:04:53documents that should be confidential but also obtaining the records that we
00:04:58need to complete our investigation and with the understanding that the vast
00:05:02majority of anything we asked for are in the public domain anyway these are
00:05:07public government records that should be accessible to the general public but
00:05:12also to the state Senate to conduct our work here so thank you and just let me
00:05:17know before we post anything on the website any documents if there are any
00:05:22that you feel like a need to be shielded or protected in any way fair
00:05:27enough all righty before we get started I will need to swear each of you in mr.
00:05:34Pitts I'll start with you if you will raise your right hand please sir do you
00:05:38swear the testimony you will give before this committee this morning will be the
00:05:42truth the whole truth and to the best of your knowledge and ability I do and miss
00:05:48Whitmore would you likewise you swear the testimony you'll provide this
00:05:52morning will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help
00:05:55you God yes we have our court report present we'll be making a transcript of
00:06:01all the testimony and we're happy to share that with you it will become part
00:06:05of the public record afterwards if you later want to correct any answers or add
00:06:11information we welcome that and I will state before we begin as we say every
00:06:17meeting that our Senate website is set up that if anybody from the public has
00:06:23information you think might be relevant to our investigation feel free to reach
00:06:28out to us and and provide any information that could be relevant to us
00:06:32and let us know if you would like to testify before this committee as our
00:06:38process unfolds throughout the summer in the fall mr. Pitts let me get you just
00:06:43to give us a little brief background you and I know each other and I think most
00:06:47people in Fulton County know of you from your long history of public service
00:06:51if you would tell us a little bit about the position you hold and how long
00:06:56you've been in the chairman's post and any other political service before that
00:07:00I think it might give some context thank you senator mr. chairman I've been as
00:07:06you've indicated been involved as a elected official for many years I look
00:07:11at Senator Butler and I kind of count sometimes to figure out just who who who
00:07:17is still standing and I'm sorry that you're gonna be leaving us but I began
00:07:21my political career in Atlanta as a member of the Atlanta City Council I
00:07:25served there for 20 years as a member of Atlanta City Council then I was elected
00:07:31as president of the City Council I served four years as president then I
00:07:35moved over to the county where I served for I think 12 years as a member of the
00:07:43commission as a commissioner and for the last seven or eight years I have been
00:07:48privileged to serve as chair of the Board of Commissioners of Fulton County
00:07:53and as in that position how often do you does your commission meet is it twice a
00:08:00month we meet the first and third Wednesdays of every month is it part of
00:08:06the duties and responsibilities of the Fulton County Commission to establish
00:08:12the budget for the district attorney's office and some supervision of that
00:08:16office we establish the budget for the district attorney as well as all other
00:08:23departments for final approval and when you are formulating the budgets does the
00:08:29district attorney submit to you a budget request for public funding the the
00:08:36process and I'll defer to our chief financial officer but there's a process
00:08:40where the department heads appear before the manager and the finance team
00:08:47to explain their requests and then from there comes to us for final approval you
00:08:53might want to clarify so the budgets of all the county departments including the
00:08:59district attorney's office are ultimately approved by the county
00:09:02that's correct okay miss Whitmore if it's okay with you I may bounce back and
00:09:08forth between witnesses because I understand as the chairman just deferred
00:09:13to you there are areas where you have particular expertise okay yes that's
00:09:19fine Brenda I'm not gonna make your life as
00:09:21miserable as you're sitting there thinking right now our court reporter is
00:09:24gonna try to keep a transcript but you will occasionally have to go back and
00:09:28forth between witnesses I will have I'm gonna have miss Whitmore later a direct
00:09:36line of questioning her but I may periodically let her chime in here okay
00:09:40all right tell us a bit a little bit about that how that budgeting process
00:09:45works Thank You mr. chairman chairman Pitts description is the general process
00:09:54actually every Department of County Government including constitutional
00:10:00officers and elected officials submit a annual budget request through our budget
00:10:07development application those requests are reviewed vetted and verified through
00:10:14our budget office the county's budget ordinance is designed in in a way that
00:10:22the budget is developed and presented to the Board of Commissioners as a
00:10:27recommendation from the office of the county manager so we have a review
00:10:34process that we undertake with the county manager and members of his
00:10:38executive team to review the requests that are presented typically we provide
00:10:45each agency with a base budget figure to start with and then they are allowed to
00:10:51submit what we call budget enhancements where they can ask for additional
00:10:57additional resources to just continue an existing program to expand an existing
00:11:04program or to establish a a new program or service there also we also have a
00:11:11separate process that we run simultaneously as the operating budget
00:11:17for a capital capital budget request and there is a capital budget review
00:11:25committee that receives and that's all of those requests and they are then in
00:11:31turn taken into consideration at the same time as operating budget requests
00:11:35because we we only have one pool of resources to use so we consider all of
00:11:41those at the same time so our constitutional officers and elected
00:11:45officials submit their requests through the same channels sometimes they may
00:11:52choose not to come and present to the county manager's office and then choose
00:11:59instead to communicate their budget needs directly with the Board of
00:12:06Commissioners so that in a nutshell is the county budget process and when you
00:12:11talk about capital expenditures is that like new automobiles for police
00:12:17departments new buildings new expenditures on things along those
00:12:22other than personnel yes yes sir rolling stock heavy equipment facility
00:12:29renovation new facilities facility expansion all of that would come through
00:12:36our capital process so we talk about building a new county jail that's a
00:12:42capital project that is one very significant capital project yes sir can
00:12:50you give us a just a feel for what the size of Fulton County's annual budget is
00:12:55all funds including all funds included it's about 1.2 billion dollars and do
00:13:09you have readily available what amount of general funds from the county or
00:13:15allocated to the district attorney's office on an annual basis I guess we'll
00:13:19just talk about this year to start with in 2024 the district attorney's
00:13:25allocation was 36.6 million from the general fund chairman Pitts has tried to
00:13:33explain to me that there are several buckets of funds that are used to fund
00:13:37the district attorney's office would you kind of run that through for me it
00:13:42does what additional funding over and above the 36.6 million of general funds
00:13:49from county tax revenues that are allocated to the district yes sir the
00:13:52district attorney in addition to the county's general fund resources also has
00:13:59resources that are available through the confiscated asset asset forfeiture fund
00:14:05as well as the victims witness assistance fund federal asset forfeiture
00:14:14funds and we keep all of these in separate and in separate funds and then
00:14:19a number of different grants that come through the state and federal grant
00:14:26process and then since really the middle of 2021 when we developed our spending
00:14:35program for the resources that we received through the American Rescue Act
00:14:41she the district attorney has also had resources available for what we call our
00:14:48project Orca which is our court backlog project that that was funded out of our
00:14:53ARPA resources let me slow down on that one just a minute did you say project
00:14:57Orca like an Orca whale yes sir okay is that acronym does that stand for
00:15:02something you could help it's it's it's more I guess visual than that it just
00:15:09was intended to mean that it was a very you know an Orca is a very large ocean
00:15:17mammal and the court backlog that we had as a result of the slowdown in the court
00:15:26system during the pandemic was also very large so the individual who was
00:15:34charged with developing a program to address the court backlog named it
00:15:40project Orca but it is our official court backlog reduction program and this
00:15:45is funded through federal funds through ARPA resources yes sir and the ARPA
00:15:52money was was put in to sort of help all the states recover from the COVID
00:15:57epidemic yes sir do you know the amount of ARPA funds that were allocated to the
00:16:03district attorney's office or the Orca project I don't I don't have that number
00:16:09available with me today but I can share it and as far as the expenditures of
00:16:15that fund is that anything that the County Commission had authority or
00:16:21discretion over where the money went how it was spent specifically is your
00:16:28question specific to the ARPA resources themselves yes yes sir they determined
00:16:32where and how our ARPA resources would be utilized the county executive team
00:16:38made a recommendation and the Board of Commissioners adopted that
00:16:42recommendation and we have modified it over the course of time as we have
00:16:46continued to execute on our spend for the ARPA resources and one of the areas
00:16:56you allocated some of the ARPA funding was to this Orca project yes sir in
00:17:01total about 75 million is what we allocated to project Orca and who else
00:17:08was allocated funds through the Orca project in addition to the district
00:17:13attorney's office most of the partners from our justice system received funding
00:17:17out of the project Orca resources the district attorney's office the state
00:17:24court Superior Court Magistrate Court public defender the Sheriff's Department
00:17:31I believe juvenile court received some so we took a look across the entire
00:17:40justice system to see where we would need to plug in some additional
00:17:45resources in order to develop a work plan to you know bring our backlog that
00:17:53had accumulated to bring those numbers down so if 75 million was applied to the
00:17:59Orca project do you know what amount of the 75 million went to the district
00:18:04attorney's office I don't I don't have the exact dollar amount with me I can
00:18:08tell you that she did receive funding to cover 75 positions which was the
00:18:16highest number of positions that were provided across the justice agencies but
00:18:22I just I'm sorry I didn't I didn't bring that I don't have that number with me I
00:18:26don't know I don't know it off the top of my head I'm not certain if we even
00:18:29requested that I know that you are continuing to compile for me the
00:18:34essentially the the ledger or roster of employees employed by the district
00:18:39attorney's office and I suppose we'll be able to break this out as you compile
00:18:43that data right yes sir okay do you have any idea how many employees in the
00:18:49district attorney's office now I believe she has about 277 employees plus the
00:19:04positions in Orca so a little little over 300 maybe 340 and that would
00:19:14include assistant district attorneys and investigators and secretarial help the
00:19:20entire spectrum of staff yes sir
00:19:26will the Orca funds expire anytime soon or be exhausted I know if they came
00:19:34through ARPA that's sort of winding down at this point right yes sir we are in
00:19:41undertaking an effort currently to ramp down our Orca spend within the 75
00:19:49million that was allotted and within the general time frame that was provided
00:19:55for the spending to occur which is 1231 2024 so we're at the tail end the last
00:20:03year of that huh yes sir the way you described a budget process sounds very
00:20:08similar to the state budget process where it's almost a continuation budget
00:20:13from the year before and then there are requests for additions increases if you
00:20:18need more staff or if circumstances have changed or need to make a capital
00:20:22expenditure yeah yeah yes sir I mean we we tend to start from the the previous
00:20:32year and build on to that if a department received funding in a
00:20:38previous year that was not intended to be part of their recurring budget then
00:20:42we make adjustments for that that's why I said we provide them with a base
00:20:45budget so that base budget each year will reflect the ins and outs from you
00:20:51know whatever transpired in the previous year's budget cycle so if a department
00:20:55received funding for a particular project or purpose that's not intended
00:20:59to happen on an annual basis then we we pull those monies back out and and you
00:21:07know readjust there and realign their base budget okay how much detail does a
00:21:12district attorney's office provide it when they make their annual budget
00:21:16request is it fairly itemized by employee by expenditure type work where
00:21:22it goes in our process we provide them with a line item version of their budget
00:21:37our budget development application we provide them with a position summary so
00:21:45we give them a report of all of their positions and it's as of a point in time
00:21:49and and they are required to make any corrections to that position summary
00:21:56report because that becomes the basis for their salary and fringe benefit
00:22:01budget for the base year and then they are allowed to go in and align the
00:22:10operating portion of their budget in whatever manner suits their operational
00:22:16needs we do have a couple of object codes that we really do not allow them
00:22:24to deviate much from because they are necessary to fund things like our risk
00:22:34management fund so you know we have an object code specifically for that that's
00:22:39that's a rate times the number of positions that you have so you really
00:22:43there's no deviation there but they do have the ability to go in and adjust
00:22:47their budget they are requested to provide details contract you know
00:22:56contract names and amounts for specific contracts so like our Department of Real
00:23:04Estate and Asset Management would would come in and identify their contractors
00:23:10that they have in their contracts that they have for things like janitorial
00:23:14services if they have professional service contractors they would identify
00:23:18them it is an ask some departments do a better job of others than you know
00:23:24providing a lot of detail and support for for their asks so you know we spend
00:23:33a lot of time and a lot of back-and-forth trying to understand
00:23:38especially when they have submitted for an enhancement request or a new
00:23:43program trying to make sure that they put everything in that they should be
00:23:47including in those requests but they do have the opportunity to align how they
00:23:54would like to see it and provide detail explanations for their requests and
00:24:01chairman pits back to you just for a minute that's why I was letting her get
00:24:06into this issue there because I know that's why you hired her right that's
00:24:10correct okay the way you explained it to me is that with certain elected
00:24:19officials that are provided for under the Georgia Constitution like the
00:24:23district attorney's office and the sheriff's department these are elected
00:24:27officials and our state constitution provides the sort of parameters of their
00:24:33authority and responsibilities right that's correct for those particularly
00:24:37those to a sheriff and a district attorney do you micromanage their budget
00:24:43or is it fairly well left within their authority under the state constitution
00:24:49well there are there what we call constitutional officers and we have
00:24:59three or four of those and then the district attorney is in a sort of a
00:25:06different category but also not I'll have to defer to get the correct
00:25:12terminology from from our County Attorney but constitutional officers
00:25:18believe that once their budget has been approved by the Board of Commissioners
00:25:26then they are free to manage that budget budget any way they see fit and that's
00:25:34because of this law I suppose that gives them that authority so you can't
00:25:39micromanage their spending once you've granted them the budget appropriated the
00:25:47money to them from the general funds probably not and that's I guess the
00:25:55answer to that would be no we cannot but essentially you don't have to
00:25:59appropriate money to them unless they can justify for you why they need it and
00:26:05what they intend to spend it for the line item listing that miss Whitmore
00:26:11just referenced right when they when the departmental budget comes to us and say
00:26:16even with the constitutional officers their line items but we fund the line
00:26:21items and that results in a total but once we've approved it they can
00:26:28disregard the the line items that we have approved and Aaron lies I guess up
00:26:32to sorts of conflict from time to time do you have a good grasp on exactly how
00:26:40much money runs through the DA's office budget every year you know thirty six
00:26:46point six million comes from your general funds from the taxpayers of
00:26:51Fulton County and then they have money that they get from these forfeitures and
00:26:56from a portion of fine money and then they may have grants etc both state and
00:27:02federal on top of that correct yes sir and then the state itself funds a
00:27:07certain number of positions including the district attorney's salary and a
00:27:11certain number of assistant district attorneys based on the number of judges
00:27:16in the circuit that's my understanding yes but we do not monitor that so what
00:27:21we what we are aware of is that the thirty was a thirty six point thirty six
00:27:25plus million that comes from the general fund and rarely do we get do we keep up
00:27:31with how much they receive from grants or fines and forfeitures and things of
00:27:35that nature that's something that that's within the control of the district
00:27:41attorney's office correct do they ever report that amount to you I mean it
00:27:46would seem in the course of making a budget request to you they ought they
00:27:51need to show what need for money and that would would necessarily require
00:27:56them to show you what they're getting from other sources to figure out what
00:28:00they need from you as a matter of course that is not provided to us now whether
00:28:05that comes that is made available during the budget process with staff I'm not
00:28:09sure we will we will look at other sources that they have available when
00:28:23they're asking for an enhancement to see if if there is another source that could
00:28:28be used instead of the general funds and I guess I would just like to perhaps add
00:28:35a little clarification to what the chairman just said about the other
00:28:41sources of funds those are maintained on the county's financial system so we do
00:28:48have the federal asset forfeitures the confiscated assets there are buckets of
00:28:55those they are presented to the board in the special appropriate special
00:29:01appropriation grant funds the board there's no net there is no reporting
00:29:09that comes forward to the board on those and you know because the board isn't
00:29:17authorizing those resources they come from from other sources there isn't a
00:29:22lot that comes back to the board on those from a grant perspective like a
00:29:28federal grant perspective we do present the grant applications that are made on
00:29:37our grant activity report to the board and again the grant activities and
00:29:44reporting are captured on the county's financial system and are included in our
00:29:51required single audit report each year so that's the the reporting but there is
00:29:56no there is no other reporting that is completed on those funds by the district
00:30:05attorney to the Board of Commissioners but from your accounting standpoint
00:30:10you're the chief financial officer when this these funds from whatever source
00:30:14get deposited in a bank account somebody's got to make an entry the
00:30:19deposit was made and where it came from yes sir so if if resources are received
00:30:26then they are presented over to the county treasury they're deposited and
00:30:31it within these funds then the spending credit if you will is as is provided to
00:30:39the agency that's receiving the funds we have you know multiple agencies that
00:30:44receive federal asset forfeiture funds and confiscated asset funds so we track
00:30:50it by each department within those funds and when when the resources are received
00:30:55they are given credit for them on the grants many of the grants are of course
00:31:00drawdown grants so we're spending counties resort the county's resources
00:31:07first and seeking reimbursement from the granting agency so they're whatever the
00:31:14required drawdown process is our grants administration office in the finance
00:31:23department would be involved in assisting and facilitating the reporting
00:31:30require the financial reporting requirements programmatic reporting
00:31:34requirements are typically managed directly by the department or agency
00:31:39that has received the grant but our grant administration unit will ensure
00:31:43that the required whatever periodic required financial reporting is complete
00:31:49and that the drawdowns are completed on a timely basis so that the county is not
00:31:55fronting that money for too long of a period of time tell me what you just
00:32:01referenced a single audit that's the audit that any entity that receives a
00:32:11federal grant is required to have completed on an annual basis our
00:32:16external auditors complete the single audit it it is a specific audit of all
00:32:23federal and state grant funds and is that broken out between your various
00:32:29county agencies and departments including the district attorney's office
00:32:33yes the auditors have a requirement to identify major programs and audit on a
00:32:45risk basis and so they determine which programs may get a more thorough and
00:32:55very specific audit process but all of the all of the grants are included and
00:33:01all of the information that they ask for is provided to them as part of that
00:33:05single audit process is that a written document report that you would receive
00:33:12every year the single audit yes yes and is that a requirement of each agency
00:33:17including the district attorney's office to provide the requested data and
00:33:22information to the auditor it is yes by reviewing that are you able to pretty
00:33:27well track all of the spending of grant funds anyway by the district attorney's
00:33:33office at a summary level it's a it's not it's not detailed it just basically
00:33:41gives you you know the total amounts of what was received and expended yes sir
00:33:48give a category of the spending I believe that it's just listed by the
00:33:57individual grants would that explain or reveal to you what personnel was paid
00:34:06for by specific grants it is not the report itself is not at that level of
00:34:13detail all right now is that provided to you in any way in your role as CFO do
00:34:19you get to see you know which employees are funded by county money versus a
00:34:24federal grant versus a state grant versus a combination yes that
00:34:31information is available is would be available to me again when those grants
00:34:38are awarded and received we establish the budget if personnel expenses are
00:34:46included in the grant award then the budget office will work with the
00:34:50recipient agency to ensure that the appropriate positions are established
00:35:00created and established within the grant to ensure that they comply with
00:35:03with whatever the application and the budget document that was presented to
00:35:09the granting agency includes and we've had conversations before this morning as
00:35:17you've tried to explain to me some of these different funding sources it seems
00:35:23to me like on a lot of the staff attorney or assistant DA positions and
00:35:29other investigators and other folks that are working for the DA's office
00:35:33that their salary is paid partly by the state with a local supplement a county
00:35:39supplement explain that to our committee so we figure this portion out yeah
00:35:44there there are a handful of positions
00:35:52assistant district attorneys deputy district attorneys investigator maybe
00:35:57some legal assistants who are paid by the state and supplemented by the county
00:36:08so we we call them state supplemented positions and I'm not a hundred percent
00:36:15on what the total number is right now I think it's somewhere between 15 and 20
00:36:24I'm not sure what which of those are filled so that that's part of the
00:36:30information that we have yet to finalize to be able to provide to you still try
00:36:37to break that out exactly yes sir yes sir so what about a employee of the DA's
00:36:43offices health insurance benefits is that paid by the state of Georgia the
00:36:48state health benefit plan or by Fulton County's health plan positions that are
00:36:55a hundred percent County funded positions are paid by the county I won't
00:37:05I will have to have one of the supplemental positions pulled at one
00:37:09point in time under a previous district attorney some of them were receiving
00:37:14benefits I'm not certain at this point with DA Willis if they are receiving
00:37:24also receiving County benefits or not so I will actually need to go and and pull
00:37:29that information what about retirement funds I know state employees are eligible
00:37:36for state retirement benefits do do you have County retirement benefits for
00:37:42these County employees Fulton County has a closed defined benefit plan that
00:37:49closed in 1999 so if there are employees in the district attorney's office who
00:37:57were employed by the county and participated in that that plan and chose
00:38:02to stay in it then they would be eligible for a defined benefit pension
00:38:07upon their retirement from the county we also have since that point in time had
00:38:12a defined contribution plan in place that is available to full-time county
00:38:20employees we have amended it over time to include or exclude certain groups as
00:38:27we've learned certain groups have been added into and out of other other plans
00:38:33so full-time employees have the benefit of that defined contribution plan and
00:38:39that would be at the cost to Fulton County taxpayers rather than state
00:38:44taxpayers yes sir so there may be two or three of us working as assistant DA's
00:38:50under miss Willis and if I'm one of the state funded positions I would be
00:38:56receiving a different type of health insurance plan possibly in a different
00:39:00type of retirement plan than my colleague that's a supplemental employee
00:39:04that's funded by the county alone possibly yes sir I will come I will
00:39:10confirm that in our response what about folks that are independent contractors
00:39:17of the DA's office like a special counsel special assistant DA how are
00:39:24they paid they are treated as professional services and paid as if
00:39:29they were a county vendor and do you consider them then a county employee or
00:39:36a county vendor or independent contractor a independent contractor with
00:39:42a with a receipt of a vendor payment and as far as benefits from those type of
00:39:50independent contractors would they receive any health insurance benefits or
00:39:54retirement benefits at all no sir and do you in the county level have any
00:40:01control over what they're paid no sir that's at the discretion of the district
00:40:08attorney does the district attorney and I'm gonna shift back to you chairman
00:40:12Pitts have to advise you of what's going on with these independent contractors
00:40:17that are being hired no sir do they have to request funding from you and is
00:40:25that in the budget request that I need X amount for a specific prosecutor or as a
00:40:32category of assistance that I need to get from an independent contractor well
00:40:42let me let me try to answer that question this way first of all we have
00:40:48what's called outside counsel and I'm gonna make a distinction between outside
00:40:53counsel and a special prosecutor all right explain that one to the shrine and
00:41:02outside and outside counsel is or outside counsel is hired when the county
00:41:10attorney determines that there's a need for assistance she then in this case she
00:41:16will make a recommendation to the board and explain why she needs outside
00:41:28counsel she makes that recommendation to us and if we agree and that's typically
00:41:35done in executive session and if we agree that we will take a public vote
00:41:40and authorize the hiring on the recommendation of the county attorney of
00:41:47outside counsel and we have a range an hourly rate I'm not sure what that hourly
00:41:54rate is nor whether that's really relevant but there's a there's a range
00:41:58that we pay outside counsel and that's different from a special special
00:42:10prosecutor the would outside counsel have anything to do with criminal
00:42:17prosecutions or they representing the county's interest in other type of
00:42:21matters.
00:42:22I got the right answer I was going to thought I was right on to make sure we
00:42:34don't hire outside counsel for criminal matters that would be for dealing with
00:42:40other county legal matters that that you needed extra help from somebody other
00:42:46than the county attorney's office.
00:42:51Primarily civil versus criminal so who's the brains back there behind you you're
00:42:56consulting with the county attorney what's her name.
00:43:00Sue Joe Sue Joe yes and that's S. O. O. and then J. O. yes I got that right yes
00:43:06okay.
00:43:07Joe I may ask you to share some information with us you're not under
00:43:10subpoena and won't be sworn testimony but if if it comes a time where you can
00:43:14help sort of enlighten us you just let us know or else you can keep keep
00:43:19letting the chairman of it right so those outside counsel.
00:43:24Have to be approved by the county commission correct it's done on the
00:43:27recommendation of the county attorney correct or the request and that would
00:43:31specify the pay rate that those folks would be paid that's correct and the
00:43:35second category second category would be a special prosecutor.
00:43:42And a special prosecutor is I believe I'm correct on this that the district
00:43:51attorney has sole discretion under very narrow circumstances and I don't know
00:43:58how to find narrow circumstances but that's how it's been described to me to
00:44:03hire independent of the board of commissioners a special prosecutors.
00:44:11Her decision and her choice but that we have nothing to do with that.
00:44:17You wouldn't have anything to do with the selection or approval of that
00:44:20council that's correct.
00:44:23But you would ultimately be paying for that council through the general
00:44:27appropriations bucket.
00:44:30In the budget that you approve for the DA's office.
00:44:34For special prosecutor yeah.
00:44:36I'm told yes all right you're told that by your chief financial officer that's
00:44:40her job to know yes okay on those we wouldn't know you you wouldn't know the
00:44:46name of them or how much they're being paid no but you're gonna see a line item
00:44:51on a on an audit at the end of the year showing how much that person was paid.
00:44:57They're typically captured as professional services expenses.
00:45:04And is that in a group or individual it's a professional services object
00:45:09code within the district attorney's budget within the general fund all right.
00:45:17That's didn't educate me I'm wondering does that mean if if Miss Willis hires
00:45:2615 special prosecuting attorneys and pays them 10 million dollars that that's
00:45:32all you see is that 10 million was spent for that type of personnel or does it
00:45:37give you how much mr. Wade got how much mr. Johnson and mr. our system captures
00:45:42all of that but as far as how our reports roll up at the object code level
00:45:52you would just see the total amount you would have to go actually go into the
00:45:59accounting system to extract the details of the payments for professional
00:46:04services because there may be more than just legal services or outside or
00:46:12special prosecutor services within the object code for professional services
00:46:19professional services it doesn't even delineate how much is attorneys and how
00:46:23much is a janitor yes sir so if I want to find out how much mr. Wade was paid
00:46:36for his services as a special prosecutor who has that data I want to issue a
00:46:44subpoena to find that out do I give it to you as the county and you can discern
00:46:49that or do I have to go to whoever hired this professional service
00:46:55provider the county actually has an open open government platform you could go to
00:47:04our open checkbook and you could search by the name and it would pull up the
00:47:10name of any vendor that matches that description and you could find you know
00:47:16payments that way so you could go in and type in mr. Wade's name or the name
00:47:23of his law firm and you would be able to pull those documents you could also
00:47:28submit open records request to the finance department and the accounts
00:47:34payable team will pull the details and provide that documentation or you could
00:47:41subpoena that in it probably the district attorney or any member of her
00:47:50staff that is involved in their internal accounting and vendor payment process it
00:48:01was included in my subpoena can you find that information yes or do I have to go
00:48:07to the DA who may not provide we have that information you can tell me the
00:48:12recipient by name of these professional services payments what we provided today
00:48:19was specific to mr. Wade we are working on the request also included any other
00:48:25attorney so we are still working on that our process is we are searching now
00:48:32through all of the transactions within that professional services object code
00:48:37pulling out the ones that appear to be legal firms and pulling the underlying
00:48:44supporting documentation to determine if they were in fact legal firms and if
00:48:48those expenses are responsive to the subpoena and if so they will be provided
00:48:54and I know I might sound a little lawyer is here I don't mean to be hounding you
00:48:59but I'm wanting to make sure that I address that subpoena to the right
00:49:03person and I'm told you are the the bomb you are the answer to financial
00:49:10questions in Fulton County or can get them if I'm wrong help direct me where I
00:49:16need to submit additional subpoenas to track down that information no sir
00:49:21submitting a subpoena to to me is should be sufficient and I will say on the
00:49:27record you have been very responsive and I know it's a lot of data and
00:49:32information and I appreciate your efforts to continue providing that to me
00:49:38thank you you have been completely transparent and helpful in trying to
00:49:44find things so you said supporting documentation what kind of supporting
00:49:51documentation would there be for a professional services payment to a law
00:49:57firm typically their billing statement do you have supporting documentation to
00:50:05show you a contract with them with the independent contractor between the legal
00:50:12services provider and the district attorney's office or the county the
00:50:17contracts typically are not provided as part of the supporting documentation it
00:50:22can be requested but from you or from the DA's office if I have it I will
00:50:32provide it if I if I don't have it and it's something that I I can't get then I
00:50:43wouldn't be able to provide it because this is sounding to me kind of like the
00:50:55Wild West very little control from Fulton County over a 36 million dollar
00:51:00budget you don't know how much of that is spent on professional services who is
00:51:06hired how much they're paid per hour what their total compensation is yet
00:51:12you're being asked to provide 36.6 million a year that you know it
00:51:16encompasses a number of those type of independent contractors that you're
00:51:24funding with no oversight or control right yeah the Board of Commissioners
00:51:31has no oversight over the district attorney so your only control is the
00:51:40power of the purse whether you fund continue funding money that can be used
00:51:47for those purposes or whether you restrict that funding is that fair
00:51:51chairman Pitts I guess that's really your question could you repeat that
00:51:56Jim so your only control is the power of the purse is either granting or
00:52:02rejecting requests for additional funding from the DA's office that's
00:52:07correct and that has to be based upon assurances presented to you by the DA
00:52:13as to why she would need particular amounts of funding right the DA can come
00:52:20before the board and make a request at any time and we you know we would
00:52:25consider the request and if we agree then we'll grant it if we disagree then
00:52:30we won't grant it and in that request do you require her to give some specifics
00:52:37you know some who I want to hire why I need to hire somebody how much I want
00:52:41to pay them what's gonna be the cap on their we don't get into that that that
00:52:45that sort of detail I mean she'll make a would make a case as to why the need is
00:52:52there and what it would cost but as far as individual names and and what would
00:52:58be what the compensation for a given individual individual would be we don't
00:53:03get that kind of detail nor do we ask it did DA Willis ever make a request for
00:53:11specific funding for a special assistant DA prosecuting DA for the these for mr.
00:53:19Wade not to my knowledge and is her position that she doesn't have to ask
00:53:27or provide that information to the county in order to make a supplemental
00:53:31funding request well again the with respect to the special prosecutor that's
00:53:41solely the purview of the district attorney unlike the outside counsel but
00:53:49you fund the district attorney based upon her stated needs or her requests
00:53:55for funding right correct okay in her budget request does she have a category
00:54:00for special prosecutors I don't recall saying a special category
00:54:14mr. chairman I I guess I would have to say that she she as have prior district
00:54:21attorneys have asked for resources
00:54:28trial expense resources without it being specific to X amount for a special
00:54:39prosecutor or X amount for expert witnesses or you know things like that I
00:54:46think that it's been more like we know we have these major prosecutorial
00:54:56matters that will be moving forward and will require you know additional
00:55:02resources but I don't recall there being any specific line item details
00:55:07necessarily associated with that all right so we heard testimony at a
00:55:13previous meeting that there was a team of at least ten assistant DA's working
00:55:20on an election interference case and at least three special counsel that are
00:55:26being paid as independent contractors including mr. Wade was that ever
00:55:31described to the County Commission in any of the funding requests I don't
00:55:39recall that coming before the board so she never came to you and said I'm gonna
00:55:44need a lot of money here to conduct this prosecution of now there's 16 different
00:55:48defendants on I'm gonna call it the election interference case was that ever
00:55:54expressed to the County Commission that that's part of why you were asked to get
00:55:57thirty six point six million again not with that level of detail so again trial
00:56:12expenses just generically not even for the type of prosecution I want to say
00:56:20for the 23 budget and I will have to go back and verify this that I did there
00:56:25was some communication where she identified a need for resources because
00:56:34she expected to have a to have to retry a case that had been a high-profile case
00:56:41as well as the gang matters that she has I think there are a couple of those
00:56:55and the elections you know the elections interference matter as well
00:57:01but but again it was a lump sum not specific with with line item details so
00:57:10you think that was in her budget request perhaps in 23 we talk about young thug
00:57:14trial it's been going that it's gone on forever and ever so far or different
00:57:19I believe there is more than one gang related large-scale prosecutorial matter
00:57:28but yes sir that would be one of them and you think she may have also itemized
00:57:33the election interference case would require additional funds or categorize
00:57:37that as a an area of needed funding yes sir again I need I would have to go back
00:57:47and and look well I don't so yes sir that was Sabrina McTeer the county's
00:58:02budget manager so this is from the 23 budget enhancement request and the
00:58:11description says and I'll just read it the general rule the more complicated
00:58:17a case the more likely expert witnesses e.g. professional services are needed
00:58:23that was in parentheses state versus text MacGyver has been remanded to this
00:58:28office this case alone cost six hundred and seventy five thousand in
00:58:33professional services I have this case in several anti-corruption cases that
00:58:39are being litigated in 23 it is sufficient to enhance this budget and
00:58:46the request was 1.1 million dollars so that was for Tex MacGyver and any other
00:58:53public corruption case yes sir so that's the kind of description that I was
00:58:59perhaps not doing a very good job of expressing but you're doing great and
00:59:04and as far as your recollection chairman Pitts is that she never named that that
00:59:11she would need a special prosecutor on any election interference case not that
00:59:17I recall sir certainly never told you the names of who she might be hiring or
00:59:21how much she was gonna have to pay him not that I recall sir did she make other
00:59:26budget enhancement requests back in 2023 21 or 22 I can't remember exactly when
00:59:34she was sworn in madam DA was sworn in and began her term in 2021 so we did
00:59:47receive enhancement request from her for the 22 budget cycle the 23 and the 24
00:59:55what was the five million dollar enhancement request for clearing up
01:00:00homicide backlogs y'all recall that that was testified to your last meeting that
01:00:07was a request that came through in the middle of 2021 she requested additional
01:00:19staff to support a number of items the outstanding homicide situation being one
01:00:29of them ultimately in 2021 through a budget amendment process that we call
01:00:35budget soundings the Board of Commissioners did authorize her to have
01:00:43funding for an additional 55 positions it was a mix of attorneys investigators
01:00:50and administrative support personnel and in 21 the cost that was necessary to
01:00:58begin to to to onboard those positions because she would not be able to do all
01:01:0355 at one time was less than 800,000 I think the budget soundings was 780,000
01:01:10and some change but the full annual cost for that is the five million dollars and
01:01:17so we built that in then to her 2022 budget with the full year funding for
01:01:24all of the positions that the board awarded her mid-year in 2021 and was
01:01:31there any mention in that five million dollar enhancement request that that
01:01:35would be needed for any type of public corruption investigation I will have to
01:01:41go back to the source document to confirm that what do you call that
01:01:47source document because I'm going to want to make sure I have adequately
01:01:50identified what I need to be produced I would call it a budget soundings request
01:01:58and can you provide those to me without me submitting the additional Spain I
01:02:05think they're included in what I've asked for just I may not have been as
01:02:09specific because I didn't know what to call it yes sir we I had intended to
01:02:14include the 2021 soundings information as part of the request for the budget
01:02:20information that was already at your convenience and if you would do that for
01:02:29any of those sounding requests for 21 22 23 and 24 just to keep me up to speed
01:02:36because Chairman Pitts what I am hearing from you is that the Board of
01:02:45Commissioners never got any kind of specific request for additional funding
01:02:51to prosecute any election interference cases no not in that generic 1 million
01:02:58you know in 23 not that I recall sir and and and no specific information
01:03:06about who needed to be hired as an independent contractor or what they
01:03:11would cost I understand governor Barnes was too expensive and I just didn't know
01:03:15if that's that y'all figured that out or she ruled about for that reason not
01:03:21that I recall he's a he's a gun for hire for anybody out there is paying
01:03:30attention and pleasure to have you in the audience with us today governor
01:03:34Barnes and I'm just wanting us to get a feel and for exactly how much oversight
01:03:42there is it sounds like it's very loose as far as employment practices and
01:03:48expenditures for independent contractors you know that information doesn't come
01:03:53before the board not only you have to peel it out in these soundings and in
01:04:00the annual audit and in the budget submissions as she gives you the
01:04:03categories of what she needs that's correct and when budget soundings come
01:04:08before the board there's a little more detail and more specifics probably
01:04:14pretty difficult politically for you and the board of commissioners to reject a
01:04:20request for needed funding to clear up a backlog in homicide cases right well I
01:04:30mean we had such a such a tremendous number of cases that were so called you
01:04:37know they've been there for up in the thousands and we decided that we just
01:04:44the seventy five million from the arbor funds has already been referenced by
01:04:47miss Whitmore right so in order to you know did we through well seventy five
01:04:54million of the I think we received a total federal allocation of about two
01:05:00hundred and six million in ARPA funds and seventy five million of that two
01:05:06hundred and six million went to the justice system and the justice system
01:05:14meaning everything that the CFO has outlined so that was back in the fall of
01:05:202021 it was about the same time mr. Wade was being hired and it wasn't mentioned
01:05:29to you that any of the the enhanced money was going to go towards mr. Wade
01:05:35or any other special prosecutor to prosecute election interference no it
01:05:40was my understanding that that seventy five million was to be used for the
01:05:45justice system and specifically sort of specifically with to reduce the
01:05:51tremendous backlog that we had and there was a five million dollar enhancement
01:05:57that was from county funds not the orca funds or is that the same money is that
01:06:03the five million is general fund counting and in that request that was on
01:06:09top of the orca funds to get rid of the backlog of homicide cases yes sir she
01:06:17actually asked for over a hundred positions when when she made the request
01:06:24and the way in which we addressed it was we already had the backlog program in
01:06:30development and so we identified the a certain number that would be funded
01:06:35through the backlog project out of the ARPA resources and the balance we
01:06:43provided for out of the county's general fund and this is back in the fall of
01:06:492021 yes sir two years before her 1.1 million requests for public corruption
01:06:56and text MacGyver yes sir did she ever report back to you the progress being
01:07:03made what kind of bang you were getting for your buck you're giving her tens of
01:07:07millions of dollars in either orca funds or federal state county general funds to
01:07:14get rid of this backlog did she do it I don't recall any any specific report
01:07:20back to the board from the district attorney however at at each meeting of
01:07:27the board we would receive an update on progress that was being made that's
01:07:33accurate yes sir as part of our global pandemic response we presented the Board
01:07:43of Commissioners with an update for a while at every board meeting and then
01:07:49eventually at just one meeting a month to update them on our progress using our
01:07:55ARPA resources and specifically on the backlog project showing total backlog
01:08:05cases progression of those cases through you know through the system and so we've
01:08:12been reporting on that regularly up until February of this year due to our
01:08:20cyber incident so we are almost ready to begin that reporting process again the
01:08:28last report that we made of the progress of Project Orca was in January at the
01:08:34second meeting of the Board of Commissioners in January and that was
01:08:37for progress through the end of 2023 so would that list the number of homicide
01:08:44cases that are pending and how many are being resolved on a monthly basis it
01:08:49doesn't list case type it lists the total number of projects I mean the
01:08:56total number of cases by each of the players if you will the solicitor the
01:09:04magistrate in the magistrate court the district attorney and then Superior
01:09:10Court and state court so we we kind of track the progress of the cases from the
01:09:14two prosecutors from the solicitor in the district attorney into their
01:09:18respective courts and then we traced we track the progress that the courts
01:09:23themselves are making in fully adjudicating the cases so that
01:09:29information is is all presented to the board in a in a chart and discussion
01:09:34and you know what's happening all the various different things that we had to
01:09:38do in order to you know see that line make the progression that we were
01:09:43looking for so how many backlog cases were they do you have a ballpark figure
01:09:48how bad this got back in 2021 we're a year into the pandemic courts are not
01:09:53trying cases you got a full color report there we started our drop date
01:10:13that we used to define our backlog cases was December 6 2021 and we started with
01:10:19the total of a hundred and forty eight thousand two hundred nine open and
01:10:23active cases in any stage that included solicitors office yes yes across yes
01:10:31across the justice office that prosecutes the felony offenses yes sir
01:10:35does it break them out which how many are state court versus Superior Court
01:10:42the state court beginning to start at the starting point for the state court
01:10:49was 20,000 124 the vast majority of them or at least two-thirds of them what was
01:10:57the Superior Court Superior Court was fifteen thousand eight hundred and
01:11:01eighty eight okay then you got magistrate courts well I guess my
01:11:07district court was thirty nine thousand four hundred and thirty five that can be
01:11:13everything from a speeding ticket to parking ticket very minor variety okay
01:11:17yes yes sir solicitor the solicitor general had fifty six thousand four
01:11:26hundred and sixty two at the starting point and the district attorney had
01:11:33sixteen thousand three hundred where's the 16-3 now or at the end of 2023 has
01:11:42it been used all these millions to any good to catch up from our report in
01:11:50January the district attorney's number was 130 cases that were that were the
01:11:56original orca so this is only tracking the cases that were considered in the
01:12:04orca backlog that started a hundred and forty eight so again that these
01:12:08resources were only supposed to be focused on reducing those cases there
01:12:14are still new cases of course that come into the system since that point in time
01:12:20and this report does not talk about those this is specifically focused on
01:12:25those orca cases those new ones are not funded through the orca funding correct
01:12:30correct that makes sense for for who start for the DA you started at sixteen
01:12:39thousand three hundred and ended up with a hundred and thirty yes sir okay and
01:12:43that was from December 6th of 2021 through 1231 2023 and we we can't discern
01:12:52whether they're dismissed cases whether they're plea bargain cases or trials to
01:12:57a verdict not from this report answer they just got out of the system resolved
01:13:03one way or so for the district attorney they were either moved on to Superior
01:13:11Court which is where her cases would typically go which means she still has
01:13:16to then prosecute them but what we were tracking is you know the cases that she
01:13:21had were you know they were still sitting in per se in her queue if you
01:13:26will and so from sixteen three down to a hundred and thirty they either moved up
01:13:34they either moved on in into the prosecutorial further into the
01:13:38prosecutorial process or yes they were dismissed or whatever the other term is
01:13:44that you would use when a court case doesn't progress when a matter doesn't
01:13:50progress did your reporting requirements for these Orca funds require
01:13:54any detail as to the successful completion of a case whether there was a
01:13:59conviction or a plea or they just dismissed it or did they break it down
01:14:03for you that way or just one lump sum number these cases are resolved they're
01:14:09no longer in our system in our queue we did not require that reporting that
01:14:20level of reporting to the Board of Commissioners we do have I believe that
01:14:27level of reporting from our criminal justice system but it's just not
01:14:31included in what we reported to the board does that criminal justice system
01:14:36Fulton County prepare a report giving those annual updates or dispositions of
01:14:41cases they have not this is something that the executive team worked on for
01:14:47Project Orca there was a steering committee that was established that like
01:14:52the Chief Judge of Superior Court Chief Judge of State Court Magistrate Court
01:14:57Chief Judge the clerk of Superior Magistrate Court they all participated
01:15:03in the steering committee process our former COO Alton Adams guided them
01:15:10through that process so there was no explicit reporting requirement for that
01:15:19detail level of information made by the board to the group but the board did
01:15:26want to see you know the the results of their efforts so you know Mr. Alton
01:15:32worked with the judicial partners in developing the information that was
01:15:37reported back to the Board of Commissioners so you think that criminal
01:15:41coordinating council or whatever they're called kept data that specific as to the
01:15:45outcomes of the cases I think it's it's in it's in our justice it's in our
01:15:52system and can be can be pulled out I don't know I didn't participate in their
01:15:56session so I don't really know what they did with that information me asking to
01:15:59pull that data out who should I submit a request for asked to come testify to
01:16:03us
01:16:10perhaps mr. Adams Alton Alton he is he is semi-retired he is continuing to work
01:16:20with the county as a fee-based employee to help us move further down the road
01:16:31with the potential replacement jail project
01:16:43mr. Adams a fee-based employee does that mean he's still working just on an
01:16:49hourly basis yes kind of a consulting type thing project more more specific to
01:16:56the project the jail replacement jail project okay so that's the project
01:17:01replacement jail project yes sir okay thanks all right this might be a nice
01:17:08time for a little break would you guys appreciate it or need a little little
01:17:12bathroom break little stretch your legs type thing we're gonna recess for about
01:17:1610 maybe 15 minutes here and then I'll try to start wrapping some things up I
01:17:22appreciate I know it's a broad range of questions but you're helping educate our
01:17:25committee thank you so much everybody comfortable and we will try to forge
01:17:30ahead here in short order my intention always is for these meetings to last two
01:17:34to three hours I think you kind of lose your energy if we go much longer that
01:17:40and it's such an imposition on you witnesses that have agreed to come so
01:17:43we'll try to wrap this up in about an hour so and making good progress so far
01:17:48I want to finish up a few of my thoughts sort of the traveling down certain roads
01:17:54and then miss Joe I want to get you to give me a little information from the
01:17:58county attorney's perspective so I'm happy to have you sitting there okay mr.
01:18:05Pitts we were talking about the special outside counsel the approval of it and
01:18:11essentially this Orca project and and what its goals and intents were and how
01:18:16it has successfully eliminated a lot of that backlog of the criminal cases that
01:18:23piled up during kovat so you as a commission dedicated significant
01:18:29resources both from the federal ARPA funds and from the county's coffers to
01:18:34help staff up the DA's office in order to work through that backlog of cases
01:18:40we'll call it fair enough okay and it sounds like there was some accountability
01:18:47at least telling the reduction in the cases right miss Whitmore from what you
01:18:52were telling us they are reporting on a regular basis as the progress that was
01:18:57made on those cases yes sir okay maybe not as specific as I would love to see
01:19:02is what the disposition of the cases was but we might be able to find that out
01:19:07through this other counsel you got to tell me the name of it again the
01:19:13judicial court system what was it called it was the steering committee for project
01:19:21Orca and they would probably be able to give me a more thorough explanation of
01:19:27what happened to those cases yes sir so basically we're was the DA's office good
01:19:34stewards of the funds that you allocated to them to accomplish the purposes that
01:19:39you gave that money for is that fair enough to say we're trying to monitor
01:19:44that somehow through the reporting yes sir okay you could leave that microphone
01:19:49instead of having back and forth it if you want to okay so mr. Pitts I'm
01:20:01summarizing briefly but it sounds like the DA has pretty wide discretion how
01:20:07they spend the money that you appropriate to them and does not have to
01:20:17basically get any type of pre-approval for hiring independent special counsel
01:20:24to assist in the activities of the DA's office that's correct and doesn't have
01:20:30to even report back to you how the money was spent or who was hired as a
01:20:36independent contractor and how much they were paid that's correct okay did the
01:20:42previous DA seek prior approval or use this mechanism of special prosecutors I
01:20:51can't remember Paul I don't recall the previous mr. Howard Paul Howard was a DA
01:21:00for what 20 years or so right a while yeah ever using a special prosecutor he
01:21:05could have I just don't recall no I don't I don't recall I would have to
01:21:12research that would you take a look at that because I haven't uncovered any use
01:21:17of special assistant district attorneys by the prior district attorney who was
01:21:23in office for a couple of decades yeah I believe that request number 12 at least
01:21:32would cover four years of mr. Howard's tenure and it's for outside counsel by
01:21:39the office of the district attorney for from 2016 to 2020 so I think that would
01:21:44cover that that item you would be able to ascertain whether he had ever even
01:21:48utilized this device or this mechanism to sort of bolster his manpower in the
01:21:57DA's office during that period of time yes sir and I don't I didn't want to be
01:22:02overly burdensome and ask you to go beyond four years back because I think
01:22:06that would capture the contrast between the two administrations so mr. chairman
01:22:15are you satisfied with the transparency and the disclosures or the kind of
01:22:21keeping you in the loop by the DA's office on her use of special prosecutors
01:22:27well I mean that's we've never had this situation before I just don't recall
01:22:39under under her the her predecessor mr. Howard using a special prosecutor so
01:22:47this is sort of new territory now with outside counsel that's different because
01:22:52that is recommended by the county attorney on behalf of the county yes in
01:22:59civil matters yes but you don't have recollection in all your years of
01:23:04service of previous DA's ever utilizing a special assistant district attorney
01:23:10not that I recall no sir if they did it was never brought to your attention or
01:23:14disclosed or publicized so that you would know about it that's correct and I
01:23:19think your position is that that as a board it's been communicated to you by
01:23:27the DA's office that she does not need your prior approval of such contracts
01:23:37let me make sure I understand the DA doesn't feel like she needs the prior
01:23:42approval of the County Commission to hire independent contractors well
01:23:48technically and legally she does not with respect to special prosecutors
01:23:53under these very as I understand very narrow circumstances and I'm not sure
01:23:58how that's defined well let me help you with that because this is this process
01:24:04is set forth in the official code of Georgia annotated title 15-18-20 and
01:24:10I'll just read it into the the record here under subparagraph a the district
01:24:16attorney in each judicial circuit may employ such additional assistant
01:24:21district attorneys deputy district attorneys or other attorneys
01:24:26investigators paraprofessionals clerical assistants victim and witness assistance
01:24:32personnel and other employees or independent contractors as may be
01:24:39provided for by local law or as may be authorized by the governing authority of
01:24:46the county or counties comprising the judicial circuit now Fulton County is a
01:24:56single county judicial circuit right yes okay and so you are the governing
01:25:02authority as the Board of Commissioners of that County yes okay and what you're
01:25:08saying is is that you have never authorized her hiring independent
01:25:13contractors to assist in the prosecution of her duties that's correct
01:25:20was it required well this law requires it but you the county did not require it
01:25:34well the distinction again that I make is a distinction between outside counsel
01:25:40and the special prosecutor it was always my understanding that the
01:25:43district attorney had had the authority to hire a special prosecutor as he or
01:25:54she saw the need to do so and that's the position that miss Willis has stated to
01:26:01you as chairman of the Commission that she was not required to get prior
01:26:04approval or authority to hire mr. Wade or anybody else for that matter well we
01:26:10never have never I didn't have a direct conversation with her about that but it
01:26:14said that's just the way way it is and the way our understanding was that
01:26:18because it's a special prosecutor it did not have to come before the before the
01:26:25the board for approval and I was asked that question quite a bit by the members
01:26:30of the media said did right that this have to come before the board and in
01:26:34researching it we concluded that it did not all right I'm gonna ask your county
01:26:39attorney to help me with that research because she and I've had conversations
01:26:43about any court interpretations of this statute as we flesh that out as the
01:26:49committee the Commission chairman mm-hmm would it be your preference that DA or
01:26:55other constitutional officers should seek your approval before hiring
01:26:59independent contractors that you are responsible for paying for yeah that's
01:27:07the difference repeat that let me make sure I understand you so as the County
01:27:10Commission chairman yes would it be your preference that the district attorney
01:27:15did have to seek your approval before going out and hiring special prosecutors
01:27:20or independent contractors if you're paying for it or your general fund is
01:27:30well but under the minute the current law as I understand the current law as
01:27:36it relates to constitutional officers and this in the district attorney does
01:27:44not fall under that like the sheriff and the others do but sorta and she's sort
01:27:50of a state constitutional officer as I understand it so different part of the
01:27:55job of this committee is to determine whether we need to change the law if
01:28:02it's unclear in this case and I'm wondering if you are the lawmaker here
01:28:07would you like to see state law change so that a district attorney would have
01:28:13to ask your prior approval before going out and enter into contracts with
01:28:17special prosecutors well
01:28:26probably my opinion may be a little different because I'm more I focus on on
01:28:31the money and I'm always want to follow the money from fiscal conservative and
01:28:36like to know how the money is being spent but with respect to a district
01:28:42attorney hiring who she or he or she believes that they need to but I don't
01:28:50have any issue with that but but I would like to know how the money is being
01:28:55spent so we're back to the keeping you informed and the transparency of this
01:29:03process if a DA is allowed to unilaterally hire whoever whomever they
01:29:09want to at whatever price they want to pay him do you feel like the county
01:29:14government ought to be able to be kept in the loop on this and reported to as
01:29:20to how your money was spent
01:29:22in the loop yes there's no doubt about that and you don't feel like this
01:29:26process has been transparent so far
01:29:30well to the extent that we have not read we didn't we were not advised of the
01:29:38hiring of not that it was required of a special prosecutor nor the payment
01:29:47hourly rate or whatever the rate was I mean we were just following the law and
01:29:55obviously I'd like to have more information but that was a law at the
01:29:59time and is a law at the time as I understand the law in your opinion has
01:30:04DA Willis been forthcoming or transparent with you and the Commission
01:30:09as to her utilization of special assistant district attorney in this
01:30:15election integrity case well to the extent that this is all new ground for
01:30:23us and for all of us and and that's because it wasn't utilized by the prior
01:30:28district attorney for the last 20 years before her election well this whole
01:30:32issue with the with the election integrity election interference and all
01:30:35of that it's new new territory for us and we're sort of you know feeling our
01:30:40way as we go through this even with the trying to work down the backlog of cases
01:30:46that we had so you were sort of making up rules as we went along to be honest
01:30:52with you sure do you worry that she was utilizing resources for prosecuting a
01:30:59election integrity case rather than getting rid of this backlog of 40,000
01:31:06criminal cases where to repeat that does it worry you that she was spending
01:31:14significant resources without prior approval or even any reporting or
01:31:20accountability pursuing an election integrity case rather than working on
01:31:25this backlog of 40,000 criminal cases that were pending in Fulton County might
01:31:30have been 56,000 I can't remember all my numbers it was a lot total well as I
01:31:35said earlier and as a CFO said earlier we appropriated 75 million of the 206
01:31:44million of the ARPA money that we received to the justice justice system
01:31:49and she had in addition to in addition to the backlogs she is currently involved
01:31:57with the YSL case and the election interference case so those were I mean
01:32:04three really unusual cases that I had never experienced before so we were
01:32:12trying to be as helpful to her as we can and could by providing for the most part
01:32:19the resources that she asked but as far as what happened to the resources the
01:32:24money when I say resources I mean the money that we gave her her her we after
01:32:34it was given to her we tracked the cases the the backlogs and we'll the jury is
01:32:43still out on the YSL and the election interference so we'll get it all come
01:32:47out in the wash I suppose as to how effective it's all been and when we
01:32:51provided what was asked for and we've not asked for not asked for nor have we
01:32:57been provided any interim reports as to what how are we proceeding other than
01:33:03with the backlogs so she hadn't really told you how she spent the money no sir
01:33:10okay so you gave her 75 million plus at least another one just to her that was a
01:33:14whole justice system at 75 million right yeah it wasn't just to her you
01:33:22gave her many millions of dollars to get caught up on a backlog of criminal
01:33:27prosecutions yes okay and when you did that there was no mention of any election
01:33:34integrity case was there that didn't really ever come up specifically just
01:33:40this one sounding for additional money in 2023 I believe that's correct when
01:33:49you say that's right the 1.1 million for Tex McGyver and public corruption is the
01:33:57only thing that could specifically have referenced an election integrity case
01:34:05in her enhancement request yes sir and it wasn't in her budgetary request either
01:34:10wasn't anything about election integrity it would have if it was for additional
01:34:15resources it would have come through as an enhancement request so as a
01:34:19commission you weren't aware that you were funding a election interference
01:34:24case certainly not before 2023 which would have been three years after the
01:34:29election that's I think that's correct okay and you haven't been given any
01:34:35information to tell you where the money that you did give her through orca funds
01:34:40or other things were spent well whatever she whatever whatever part of that 75
01:34:48million that she received and whether what how much was used for the backlog
01:34:54how much was used for the the YSL case and high sports were used for the
01:34:58election interference case and we don't know yeah and we're not being given any
01:35:04information other than with the backlog that's probably easier to quantify I
01:35:09don't know how she would give us or any district attorney for that matter would
01:35:13give us a report on how a the case is going until it's concluded understood
01:35:19but she could have told you how your money was being spent that you had
01:35:23awarded to her whether it was being spent on the backlog of cases versus
01:35:29public corruption cases versus you know Tex McIver whoever she she would have
01:35:34been able to give you that data could have yes but she didn't did not and we
01:35:39didn't ask either okay and that's partly because she's taking this stance that
01:35:44she's a constitutional officer and doesn't have to give you that information
01:35:49that's probably a correct statement okay let me let me turn to you miss Joe you
01:35:56and I have had conversations before today about whether or not the district
01:36:02attorney has to get prior approval and authorization of funding from the County
01:36:09Commission when utilizing this independent contractor special
01:36:14prosecutor device that this legislature gave the ability to title 15-18-20 a you
01:36:23heard me read that relevant portions of the statute and you would agree just at
01:36:28face value that would seem to require a DA to obtain approval from the governing
01:36:33authority before hiring an independent contractor okay but I think
01:36:43I would agree that the plain language of the statute certainly seems to indicate
01:36:49that the governing authority needs to be consulted and approve such an
01:36:55appointment so you're in the tell tell us who you are you're the county attorney
01:37:01give me just a little bit of background on you my name is Sue Joe and I am the
01:37:05county attorney for Fulton County which means that I am the essentially in-house
01:37:11general counsel for the corporation that is Fulton County and my office
01:37:15handles civil matters for the entire county provides defense and legal advice
01:37:21and and counsel to the Board of Commissioners and in your role as county
01:37:26attorney were you ever asked to interpret this statute or do legal
01:37:29research to find out whether or not miss Willis should have gotten prior approval
01:37:34or whether she was required to do that before going out and hiring independent
01:37:38counsel I don't recall if there was a specific request but of course I keep up
01:37:43with current events and when this issue came up I did have the occasion to look
01:37:48into the matter and research it give us your legal opinion as to whether or not
01:37:53prior approval is required we've agreed that the plain language of the statute
01:37:58would indicate that have there been judicial interpretations of this statute
01:38:03that cloud those matters so let me begin by saying that the statute OCJ 15
01:38:11dash 18 dash 20 that you are reading from deals with assistant district
01:38:16attorney so it's not explicitly giving the DA permission to appoint special
01:38:22district assistant district attorneys in case law that statute has been
01:38:29it does which which we that is the the classification for special prosecutors
01:38:35in Fulton County in terms of how how they are employed is there another
01:38:41statute that specifically addresses special independent counsel or
01:38:47prosecutors what I have not found one and what I was going to say is that the
01:38:51case law that I have reviewed that has interpreted this statute says that while
01:38:56it is not explicitly mentioning special assistant district attorneys that that
01:39:03is included in the general authority provided under the statute to district
01:39:08attorneys so in at least three Georgia Court of Appeal cases what I have found
01:39:15is that the court has rejected the proposition that this particular statute
01:39:21requires a district attorney to obtain explicit permission from a county prior
01:39:27to appointing a special assistant district attorney and in fact the
01:39:32original case the court noted that give us that citation so this is kind of
01:39:41instructive of to the legislature do we need to clarify this statute to clarify
01:39:49and so you're you help me with my legal research what's that citation it's I I'm
01:39:56sure the Attorney General's office would be happy to to provide their official
01:40:03advice but what what I will I'll begin by just saying what the citations are of
01:40:08the three cases that I reviewed one of them is greater Georgia amusements at
01:40:13317 Georgia appeals 116 which sites to state versus cook at 172 Georgia appeals
01:40:23433 and is referenced again in amusement sales incorporated versus state of
01:40:35Georgia and if you'll excuse me let me look at my Westlaw okay that's going to
01:40:42be at 316 Georgia appeals 727 and all of them include a construction of OCJ 15
01:40:581820 that indicates that the DA does not have a DA does not have to have explicit
01:41:10permission from the county in order to appoint a special assistant district
01:41:16attorney and that the employment may be pursuant to whatever private arrangements
01:41:21regarding compensation are mutually agreeable to the district attorney and
01:41:26the appointee that is a quote from state versus cook that is contained in greater
01:41:31Georgia amusements judicial interpretation of our statute essentially
01:41:38eviscerate the plain meaning or language of the statute well I will say
01:41:44I was definitely surprised at the construction in that it seems to be at
01:41:47odds with the plain language of the statute but that is the current state of
01:41:51Georgia law as I as far as I can find it and in your role as county attorney do
01:42:02you seek approval from the Board of Commissioners for hiring we'll just call
01:42:08them outside counsel to represent the county's interest in certain civil
01:42:12matters absolutely that is considered that that travels under a separate
01:42:18ordinance regarding the higher the engagement of outside counsel so for
01:42:23example it could be an official of the county has sued request representation
01:42:28if there is some reason why my office doesn't have the capacity to take it on
01:42:34directly I may recommend the engagement of outside counsel and I will bring that
01:42:39to the Board of Commissioners for their approval and that's pursuant to a county
01:42:48ordinance that requires that type of approval of both funneled through your
01:42:52office and submit it to the County Commission yes sir the Fulton County
01:42:58plan of defense governs what types of circumstances in which we can provide
01:43:04defense as a county and also the way in which that provision is made it is
01:43:12either made through my office or through outside counsel even if it is provided
01:43:17through my office I still go to the Board of Commissioners present the case
01:43:21indicate why it's covered under the plan of defense and ask for authority to
01:43:26represent is there a similar county ordinance that the references or applies
01:43:33to prosecutors there is not so you only refer back to the state law for that
01:43:40yes
01:43:47in your role as county attorney do you are you responsible for responding to
01:43:54open records requests yes the custodian of records was established in recent
01:44:02years and centralized as an individual who's designated from among the
01:44:06attorneys in my office so that is an attorney that responds to those
01:44:10complaints it is an attorney who oversees the response operation do you
01:44:19does so that's under the control of your office then the coordinate the intake
01:44:25and coordination of the response is within my office the county attorney's
01:44:30office obviously we are not the custodians of most of the documents that
01:44:35are requested so we have to coordinate that excuse me with designated open
01:44:42records liaison within each custodial department do you in your office respond
01:44:53to open records request submitted to the district attorney's office she has the
01:44:59ability to handle the entire open records process separately from the
01:45:05county as a state official historically the district attorney's office has both
01:45:11utilized my office as the point of origin and liaison and then at times has
01:45:17chosen to opt out of that currently this district attorney for Fulton County does
01:45:25receive her open records act request through the open records custodian in my
01:45:30office and if counsel is needed to respond to those requests or object to
01:45:37them or litigate disputes over open records request is that something
01:45:41provided by you for the district attorney or does she handle that herself
01:45:46so having it routed through my office is a fairly recent circumstance with our
01:45:53district attorney's office but now that it is within my office any questions as
01:46:00to exemptions and what is subject to public disclosure under the open records
01:46:05act would be referred to my attorneys in my office and we would assist with that
01:46:10and provide guidance and is your office actively providing guidance or legal
01:46:16counsel to the DA's office in any open records request or litigation arising
01:46:21from those at this time? At this time, yes.
01:46:27Does she opt out of utilizing your services on occasion? Handle them in house so to speak?
01:46:35I did not mean to imply that it was a case-by-case basis there was a period of
01:46:39time in which the point of contact was not my office my office was not involved
01:46:45in the process but as of I would have to check to confirm when but it would be at
01:46:51least several months ago perhaps a bit longer she has opted to utilize my
01:46:59office as the initial point of contact and to provide that type of guidance again.
01:47:03Was she using your office for point of contacts and guidance and sort of
01:47:11legal services during the open records requests that Ashley Merchant submitted
01:47:18this past fall? I would have to confirm that I don't know exactly when that came in.
01:47:24But here in the last few months District Attorney Willis has begun to
01:47:31utilize your office as the point of contact for receiving open records
01:47:37requests and for responding to them? That's not exactly accurate for receiving
01:47:44and for coordinating and providing advice but in many instances the
01:47:51custodial departments will upload their own responsive documents so when we
01:47:58advise them of what is being requested provide any legal guidance that may be
01:48:03necessary our point of contact for communication to provide status updates
01:48:10to the requesting party but because the custodial department may have more
01:48:16immediate access or if it is in the case of voluminous responsive documents or
01:48:22documents with restricted access within those departments the department itself
01:48:27is often the ones who will upload the documents into our software that is used
01:48:37for open records act requests. So if I submit tomorrow an open records request
01:48:46to the Fulton County District Attorney's office maybe I want to find out what
01:48:51happened to those 16,000 cases that ORCA was supposedly funding. Who will respond to that?
01:48:57Does the DA's office respond to me or do they route it through you and you get me a response?
01:49:03My expectation would be that someone on the open records team in my office would be
01:49:07the initial point of contact and say thank you for your request we understand
01:49:11you requested XYZ documents you know either here are your documents or we
01:49:19we estimate that it will take a certain amount of time to gather the documents
01:49:24that we believe are responsive and within our custody and then that they
01:49:28would keep you updated or be available should you call in or email in with a
01:49:34question as to status. And if the district attorney did not want to
01:49:38provide the documentation I requested would she object to that? Instruct you to
01:49:46object to that or does your office make that determination? So I don't know that
01:49:50we have a long enough history to have representative sampling of all the
01:49:54different potential circumstances but my expectation of the process would be that
01:49:59we would communicate what was requested that her office would identify whether
01:50:05or not they had responsive documents and that they would work with my office to
01:50:09identify the subset of those documents that do not fall under any type of
01:50:14exemption for example pending investigations or any of the statutory
01:50:19exemptions that are provided for in state law. So what happens if she says I
01:50:25ain't given that information up? I am not aware of such a circumstance in some
01:50:31instances the response we we get from the departments may include we do not
01:50:36have any responsive documents and that is how sometimes disputes arise because
01:50:42the requesting party may believe that that they exist and the custodial
01:50:48department asserts that they do not exist. Okay what if they say yep they
01:50:53exist but nope I'm not giving them to you. You know they exist, your custodial people
01:50:59figured it out, it's public records. To my knowledge that response has not
01:51:05occurred but if it did I would expect my open records team to review the
01:51:14statutory obligations under the Open Records Act with the custodial
01:51:19department to emphasize and impress upon them their legal obligation to
01:51:24provide the documents that are subject to the Open Records Act. Thank you. Let me
01:51:31ask you about the county ordinance concerning reporting of gifts from
01:51:40vendors or independent contractors. Does Fulton County have such a policy? I
01:51:45believe and I haven't reviewed that specifically for today but I believe
01:51:50you are referring to the prohibitions that are contained in our ethics code.
01:51:54Yes. Yes. What does your ethics code of Fulton County provide as far as the
01:52:03receipt of gifts from independent contractors or other vendors of the
01:52:08county or its agencies? I mean if I could have a moment I could try to pull
01:52:15that up but just off the top of my head from previous reviews there's a lot of
01:52:22language in our ethics code about appearance of impropriety, appearance of
01:52:26conflicts, avoiding appearance of conflicts. So my advice if I were asked
01:52:32would always be to avoid it altogether. However there are certain customary
01:52:37gifts, chocolates at Christmastime, Christmas gifts, etc. things that are
01:52:41shared among everyone in the office. As long as it's of nominal value and I
01:52:46believe the cutoff is $100, there is a nominal value that is
01:52:53allowed under our ethics code but anything of significance beyond that is
01:52:57considered to be prohibited. And is it prohibited to receive it or are you
01:53:02required to report it? I can't recall if it's a report. I want to say it's a
01:53:09reporting requirement and the reason I can't recall is because I like to stay
01:53:13as far away from the line as possible so my preference would be to not receive it
01:53:19but it may be a reporting requirement. If you would like a certain answer I can
01:53:25check either on a break or at some point. Do you believe that ethics code
01:53:33applies to the district attorney or other constitutional officers of Fulton
01:53:39County? I'm not sure what the intent was when the code was originally enacted but
01:53:46I know that there has been a determination by the Board of Ethics
01:53:50which has purview over adjudicating matters relating to the ethics code
01:53:55that it does not apply to the district attorney and in a related occurrence we
01:54:06have had a recent piece of legislation updating the ethics code in Fulton
01:54:13County to add I believe the amendment is a sentence that specifically indicates
01:54:20that the ethics code applies to all elected officials in Fulton County. Do
01:54:27you know why? Why this clarification? I did not I was not the sponsor of the
01:54:33legislation so I cannot speak for the Commissioner who sponsored it but I do
01:54:38know that it was subsequent in time to the decision of the Ethics Board that
01:54:43the district attorney was not covered by our Code of Ethics. So there was an
01:54:46ethics complaint brought about the receipt of gifts and it was determined
01:54:50that your existing ordinance or code ethics code did not apply? Yes sir the
01:54:57Board of Ethics determined that it did not have jurisdiction under the current
01:55:00ethics code. And the County Commission has subsequently here in recent months
01:55:05amended that ethics code to make it clear that it does apply to
01:55:10constitutional officers such as the DA and the sheriff and the tax commissioner?
01:55:14Yes I believe that was passed on April 17th or thereabouts. Very recently.
01:55:21Mr. Chairman tell us about that. Well I can't add anything to what the
01:55:26county attorney has said. It came about and I supported it when it came up to
01:55:31there's some loopholes so we're trying to close all loopholes. Is it your and so
01:55:36that is now has been enacted a recent ordinance or ethics code for the county?
01:55:42Yes sir. And it now does require the district attorney and other
01:55:47constitutional officers to disclose gifts of more than a nominal amount? I
01:55:51think that's how it's worded. But it covers the district attorney and others
01:55:56all elected officials. Right. What about reporting of gifts that are above $100
01:56:04or a nominal amount? Are you required to report those or simply banned from
01:56:08receiving them? I'd have to check the exact language in the code. Sue will be
01:56:14looking while we talk. So just on a sort of philosophical level. Yes sir. Why do
01:56:22you feel like that was needed or that type of ban is appropriate for elected
01:56:27officials including constitutional officers? Well I wasn't the sponsor of
01:56:32the legislation. But you voted for it? I voted for it yeah to cover it to close
01:56:36any loopholes so to remove any doubt as to you know who's covered who's not
01:56:40covered because the idea is for us to be open and transparent about what we're
01:56:45doing. And is there an appearance of impropriety if you were to receive
01:56:50kickbacks or things of benefit from folks that you that were contractors or
01:56:55vendors of the county? Okay repeat that one. Is there an appearance of
01:57:01impropriety or wrongdoing for elected officials to receive kickbacks or things
01:57:06of benefit from vendors or independent contractors of the county? Well I would
01:57:11say if it's over whatever that amount is then that would be a problem. Okay and
01:57:16is the reason is that your independent judgment and acting on behalf of the
01:57:22people brought into question if you're receiving things of benefit from those
01:57:28that you're doing business with? Well I mean we want to be above reproach. I
01:57:34guess that's used quite a bit by elected officials and I got that's the
01:57:38intent. So that we are above reproach and that we are open and fair in our
01:57:44dealings. And we have blackout periods or we can't even cannot even contact to
01:57:51those who are seeking to do business with the county. Even though it was
01:57:59recently determined that the ethics provisions did not apply to
01:58:03constitutional officers. Did DA Willis fill those type of disclosure forms out
01:58:09those gift forms in the past? I'm not aware I don't know about that. I'm not
01:58:15seeing. What about Paul Howard did he fill those type of forms out in the past?
01:58:20I have no knowledge of that. Yes he wasn't using independent contractors
01:58:24anyway right? I don't recall him using the special prosecutor so I'm not aware
01:58:32as the county. I have not reviewed what other elected officials are you know
01:58:37reporting. Has the County Commission ever come in and ask any agency heads or
01:58:45constitutional officers to terminate or void or alter any contracts with
01:58:52independent contractors or vendors?
01:58:56Okay repeat the question. Has the County Commission ever come in and ask for
01:59:01department heads or constitutional officers to terminate or void or amend
01:59:06or change any contracts that they might have entered into with independent
01:59:10contractors or outside vendors?
01:59:31Void an independent vendor contract? I don't know. All you did was pull the funding. You did not ask them to void the contract.
01:59:43There's a recent contract not involving the not involving the
01:59:49district attorney but we didn't ask the department head to we did not ask the
01:59:57department head to terminate the contract. We simply terminated the
02:00:03funding of the contract and the effect of that was to terminate the contract.
02:00:08And in Miss Willis's case you wouldn't have been able to terminate her contract
02:00:15with Mr. Wade because you can't control the funding of that?
02:00:23All right let me make sure I understand the question. So Miss Wade had a contract
02:00:32with Mr. Wade to be special prosecutor as an independent contractor and you
02:00:40have not asked her to terminate that agreement. The judge ultimately did but
02:00:44the County Commission never. The board did not. No sir. And was that because you
02:00:52approved of that arrangement or because you didn't think you had the authority
02:00:55to require her to terminate that arrangement? Because we did not have the
02:01:00authority where she had the authority to hire the special prosecutor. When did
02:01:07that first come to your attention or the board's attention that she had entered
02:01:11into a contract for a special prosecutor Mr. Wade to handle this election
02:01:16integrity case? Me personally? Yeah. During the media coverage on it. So you
02:01:22didn't even know it until the media erupted back in the fall sometime? That's
02:01:27correct.
02:01:31What was your response or your reaction both personally as in your capacity as
02:01:36chairman of the Commission? Well since we had we believe that we did not have any
02:01:43control over her decisions that it was her decision to hire the special
02:01:49prosecutor that we had no role in it. Could you have cut the funding off for
02:01:54that just like you did this other contract recently? We didn't know
02:01:57anything about it. Is it not even been disclosed to you as a commission? No sir.
02:02:04What are your views on the propriety of elected official hiring somebody under
02:02:16an independent contract arrangement that they had an intimate personal
02:02:21relationship with?
02:02:25Well
02:02:32you're my personal views on yeah I think I believe our new our revised code of
02:02:42ethics covers a situation like that it's been amended that correct? Revised code
02:02:48that you support would prohibit that right? Yes. Okay. It was the definition I
02:02:54think was expanded to include personal relationships. Joe can you elucidate us
02:03:02any on this? You're leaning forward in your seat as if you might have some
02:03:08information for me. I did not intend to lean forward like that. Be careful I'm
02:03:13watching. I don't want to speak for the chairman but I believe the recent
02:03:20enactment that he is referring to is a new anti-nepotism policy that would
02:03:26cover personal relationships of this nature between an official and an
02:03:32independent contractor. Is that a new ordinance as well? It is. Our
02:03:39prior ordinance was located within the Civil Service Act so it was limited in
02:03:45its application to employees and would not have applied to independent
02:03:49contractors. Would it have implied would it have applied to employees of the DA's
02:03:55office? Yes. So if Mr. Wade had been hired as an assistant DA it would have
02:04:03violated the then existing nepotism policy? Assuming that they had that type
02:04:09of relationship yes. I think that's been admitted by both parties at this point
02:04:15right you keep up with the press correct? Yes but in our hypothetical I
02:04:21mean it depends on the timing.
02:04:28So the amendment was to expand on your existing anti-nepotism clause that would
02:04:37prohibit superior from having a relationship intimate relationship with
02:04:42an employee to include independent contractors in that ban. In effect yes
02:04:50it expands it but it it had to do it through a separate policy because the
02:04:54original policy is within our Civil Service Act and therefore limited in
02:04:59application to employees. So there is a separate policy that is a countywide
02:05:03application that prohibits all of the same things that also applies to
02:05:09independent contractors because it is not limited by the scope of the Civil
02:05:13Service Act. And that was enacted when? I believe that would also be April was it
02:05:20April 17th as well. Both of these your ethics policies your anti-nepotism your
02:05:26gift have recently been expanded and they were expanded to capture this type
02:05:31of situation that we're dealing with here with Miss Willis and Mr. Wade. Had
02:05:35they been in place both would have captured this would have applied in this
02:05:39instance. Was there any rationale for not including independent contractors
02:05:47in the past or was that just an oversight? That is that isn't well I will
02:05:54say these are all fairly well established older policies but as to the
02:05:59anti-nepotism policy specifically I think the limitation is simply where
02:06:02where it was located which is the Civil Service Act. And because it was located
02:06:07in that act it was not deemed. It could not apply to anyone but employees.
02:06:16Do you know whether the district attorney's office has a separate sort of
02:06:23ethics guideline or ordinance or rules? I'm not aware I presume there are state
02:06:32guidelines that would apply as being a state officer but I'm not aware of any
02:06:36that are specific to her office.
02:06:45One of the things that was brought forward in one of our previous hearings
02:06:49is that Miss Willis entered into an independent contract for essentially a
02:06:55publicist a PR firm to help guide and monitor publicity. Is that the type of
02:07:03contract that the county would need to approve or fund?
02:07:11I'm not aware of that contract but it would
02:07:20again back to this constitutional officer and her being somewhat of a
02:07:27constitutional officer I mean there's a sheriff the tax commissioner and a
02:07:31couple of others that are a little different from from the district
02:07:34attorney but if she had and your question is about the district attorney
02:07:41yeah if she had the funds in her budget then she could without coming to us
02:07:49coming back to the board seeking approval. Did she ever ask for funding
02:07:57for a PR firm out of New York City and her different budget request is that
02:08:03in anything in the line item Miss Whitmore? She was asking for 36 million
02:08:10she explained part of it would be spent for a New York City PR firm to monitor
02:08:16her publicity? Not that I recall I would have to research that. Mr. Chairman is
02:08:24that something that the Board of Commissioners would ordinarily approve
02:08:27or budget for for various departments?
02:08:32Well again if if that's not something that we would as a matter of course
02:08:38routinely be aware of and I can't recall ever of a request like that coming
02:08:46before the board but if it's in a department's budget particularly a
02:08:52constitutional officer's budget and he or she feels that that's what they need
02:08:56then if they have the funds under this umbrella of constitutional officer they
02:09:04could do it. But you're the one that has to approve those funds because I can
02:09:08assure you that's not in our state budget. Well we don't give PR money to
02:09:12DA's offices. We wouldn't be funding that specific line item and we would be
02:09:19funding whatever she requested then once the money is
02:09:24approved then the constitutional officer
02:09:30once the constitutional officer's budget has been approved they can make changes
02:09:36as they deem appropriate. Does your Board of Commissioners have a contract with
02:09:45any type of media monitoring service or public relations service? Does the Board
02:09:51of Commissioners? Yes sir. As a board? No sir. Okay. Would you approve that type of
02:10:00funding if she had specifically requested it? Would the board have? Yeah.
02:10:06I mean I can't speak for the entire board but knowing the board as I do
02:10:10probably not for that for the purpose that you've outlined probably not. Okay.
02:10:18You learned I guess the same way the rest of us did back in the fall as the
02:10:26essentially that the media reported this relationship between Miss Willis and Mr.
02:10:32Wade. What type of pressure was put on the Board of Commissioners or was it
02:10:38anybody complained to you or was it frustrating that you couldn't do
02:10:42anything about? I just I'm curious what the reaction was from the board when all
02:10:49this scandal erupted. Well there's no pressure on the board per se. I mean
02:10:55individual constituents you know may have commented you know here and there
02:10:59but there's no I didn't feel any pressure. Obviously people would comment
02:11:05on what they had seen or heard or read and I'm sure that's true for the rest
02:11:09of the board as well but no no no pressure. Yeah. You've kind of explained
02:11:14here today that the board really has no supervisory authority or control over
02:11:22how Miss Willis spends the dollars that you budget for her but the public is had
02:11:30the presumption until you're clarifying it here now that the board approved this
02:11:36device of using an independent contractor as a special prosecutor. It
02:11:40helped fund this election integrity case and a number of attorneys both private
02:11:47contractors and you know assistant DA's being engaged in it and endorsed or you
02:11:54know didn't disapprove of the relationship between Mr. Wade and Miss
02:11:59Willis. What is your reaction or response to that? Just kind of like you
02:12:05told us today that that's that's out of your control. You may not approve it but
02:12:08can't stop it or prevent it. Well you just said a lot now and I can't follow all of that.
02:12:19So if you could repeat I mean the last. Maybe I can break it down. Yes sir. Do you feel
02:12:26like the Fulton County Board of Commissioners supported this election
02:12:33integrity case or 16 cases either by financially supporting her to pursue
02:12:43those cases? Well I think they I don't think the board we the board had no
02:12:50position or has no position on it. The district attorney as I understand how
02:12:56district attorneys operate they are free to choose the cases that they get
02:13:04involved in and we as a board have no input into that. You were never educated
02:13:12about that before the fact about about her those prosecutions election
02:13:19integrity cases. I mean did the was the board informed that the district attorney was
02:13:25going to. You've made it clear she didn't specifically ask for funding for that
02:13:31prosecution or for the hiring of special assistant district attorneys to lead
02:13:39that prosecution. Did you even know that was happening and that you were funding
02:13:44that even if it was in the big chunk of money? No we're not we're not advised of
02:13:48her work program if you will. I mean we provide funding for her and she sets
02:13:57her own work program and I think that's probably true for as I understand it for
02:14:01all district attorneys. Okay.
02:14:05There was testimony before us in previous meetings about Miss Willis and
02:14:25and Mr. Wade making trips to Washington DC to meet with the Justice Department
02:14:30and in Miss Willis's part I think meeting with the vice president of the
02:14:34United States. I guess this may not be best for you but I guess Miss Whitmore
02:14:43were you aware of any expenditures for that? I mean that was paid for with
02:14:47taxpayer money. Is that something that's reported or you track that they're
02:14:52spending your general funds to travel and meet with the vice president the
02:14:58Justice Department? We do record their travel expenses. I was not and have not
02:15:11reviewed the district attorney's office travel the details so I I had no
02:15:20knowledge of what her individual you know travel arrangements would have been
02:15:25but their travel requests and transactions are if they're paid for out
02:15:34of county resources there is a reconciliation process that is
02:15:39undertaken by the the traveler. If they're using the county's procurement
02:15:44card or travel card to pay for the travel you know then there is a detailed
02:15:49process that they they have to to go through for that but I'm at my level I'm
02:15:54not necessarily involved in in looking at or reviewing any of those transactions.
02:15:59Those type of travel expenses do they require any prior approval by the county
02:16:05or by your office? Our travel policy allows the elected officials to approve
02:16:09the travel for their staff and to approve the travel for themselves. And
02:16:14you mentioned the procurement card is that what we call a P card? Yes sir we
02:16:20use both a P card for non-travel related credit card purchases and then we have
02:16:28a separate card that we call a T card T for travel so departments have both one
02:16:34for basically goods and services and one that is for for travel. So the county's
02:16:38policy is there is a reimbursement based policy so the traveler can pay for their
02:16:44travel expenses directly and seek reimbursement or the county will prepay
02:16:48using the T card and then the reconciliation process follows the the
02:16:56trip. Explain that reconciliation process let's say somebody uses a T card to
02:17:01take a trip to California or whatever it gets charged directly to the county
02:17:06through that essentially credit card? Yes every department has a single travel
02:17:12card holder and the individual traveler is required to coordinate their travel
02:17:18needs with the travel card holder. Travel card holder makes all of the
02:17:26arrangements and charges for that card and the traveler if they're traveling
02:17:31for official county business is expected to return and supply through Concur. We
02:17:39use the Concur platform for our travel reconciliation process. They're expected
02:17:45to provide the receipts hotel evidence if it was a conference evidence that
02:17:55they attended the conference and any other receipts that they may have where
02:18:03they are seeking reimbursement. So that is when I refer to the reconciliation
02:18:08process that is what I'm referring to from the travelers perspective and then
02:18:13each month the travel card holder is required to pull their bank statement
02:18:20for the card and complete the reconciliation process for that bank
02:18:26statement for that period so that we can process payment to the financial
02:18:32institution that we use for our credit card purposes. So is Miss Willis the T
02:18:38card holder for the district attorney's office? I don't believe she is no sir. So
02:18:43it would be some designated employee of the DA's office would handle that? Yes
02:18:48sir. And at the reconciliation stage each month they would submit the receipts
02:18:53from each member of that agency or department that had utilized the card?
02:18:58For the charges that they would they would need to submit the requested
02:19:02documentation for the charges on the card for that statement. Are there limits
02:19:08is to say you know when you put somebody up in a Ritz-Carlton versus a Holiday Inn?
02:19:13Are there caps on how much you're allowed to spend on lodging or travel?
02:19:18Our policy does outline those type of limitations yes sir. And if
02:19:25somebody exceeds those limitations do you simply cut the reimbursement off at
02:19:30whatever your cap is or your guideline calls for? If they have requested an
02:19:37exception so say they're traveling to an area and there are no hotels available
02:19:44it's a conference there are no hotels available at the host hotel and they
02:19:48have to move to a different location and the rates are higher they can ask for an
02:19:54exception to that and seek approval for that but otherwise they may be
02:20:00charged back for those costs that are outside of the allowances
02:20:08allowed through the travel policy. Does the department head have the power to
02:20:13override those allowances create exceptions? Exceptions are required to
02:20:24be approved in advance and by the county manager or his designee. Do these
02:20:32rules that you've just outlined apply to the district attorney's office? These
02:20:36rules apply to anyone who travels using the county's seeking reimbursement from
02:20:44the county using the county's travel policy or the county's T-card. Who is the
02:20:50custodian of these documents of the reconciliation process and the payments
02:20:56made under the various T-cards and P-cards? The purchasing department is
02:21:03the administrator of the T-card and P-card program. Ultimately the final
02:21:11reconciliation packages are received and retained by the finance department. Are
02:21:19they under your purview? Both of those are yes sir. So you could get me that
02:21:24information if I properly requested it? Yes sir.
02:21:49Mr. Pitts, you are on the audit committee of the commission? Yes sir. Is that by
02:22:00virtue of your position as the commission chairman or is it a subset
02:22:05of the commission? How's that created?
02:22:10Let's see. I get two, it's a five member committee I believe and two
02:22:19commissioners sit on that committee and they're appointed or nominated and
02:22:25appointed by the board. And currently you are on the audit committee? Yes sir. Okay
02:22:32and is Bob Ellis the other commissioner? Commissioner Ellis is chair of the audit
02:22:37committee. And who would the other three members be then if you are the two
02:22:41commissioners? The private citizens. And what's the authority or the power of
02:22:47that audit committee? What's the role of the audit committee? Well we we work with
02:22:53the county auditor Mr. Anthony Nix and to provide audits for various departments
02:23:01areas when we see or feel that need to be looked into from an audit point of
02:23:07view whether it's financial or programmatic or otherwise. I know only
02:23:13what I've read in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution about this but
02:23:16apparently there was a recent audit report that had been requested by the
02:23:20audit committee? Yes sir. Tell me about that. What was that audit for? I believe
02:23:27you're referring to the audit that was done at the request of the audit
02:23:31committee. We utilize an outside firm called Cherry Becker nationally
02:23:41recognized firm to look at and review our and it wasn't really an audit it was
02:23:48a review of our purchasing primarily purchasing requirements processes
02:23:55within the county and looking at all departments but focused in on the
02:24:00Sheriff's Department and District Attorney's Office in particular. And did
02:24:09that Cherry Beckert is that? Beckert yes sir. Did it produce a written audit report of
02:24:15its work? It did. And was that presented to the commission? Yes. Or just to your
02:24:23committee? No no it was it was presented to the commission and we had two
02:24:27representatives from the firm make a presentation to the full board a couple
02:24:33of meetings ago maybe three meetings ago. Did this audit reflect any
02:24:38irregularities or improprieties in spending by the Sheriff's Department?
02:24:45There were I'm going from memory we can make the full report audit well it was
02:24:53really a review and not an audit but it was an audit firm nationally recognized
02:24:57firm and again we focused on the Sheriff's Department and the District
02:25:03Attorney and there were two sets of recommendations and I don't recall a
02:25:09specific recommendations but with with respect to the sheriff I think they use
02:25:16a term of you remember the term was it high?
02:25:31Yeah so the conclusion was the the county sheriff's office risk level they
02:25:38call it was high and it lists certain areas and with respect to the district
02:25:44attorney the risk level was medium. Did it list particular areas that there was
02:25:50a medium risk for impropriety by the district attorney's office? Well I can
02:25:57read from the document here the use of prosecutorial discretion as a
02:26:05justification comes with the risk of it being used with greater frequency with
02:26:12more purchases being made over time outside of county rules and procedures.
02:26:20And that expenditures that we're talking about? Purchases. Okay are those
02:26:27purchases using a P card or a T card or this is it identified? Probably a
02:26:34combination of both.
02:26:40Prosecutorial discretion are typically the items that the district
02:26:45attorney engages in directly. Expert witnesses if there's any special
02:26:58evidence processing that has to take place. Any visual aids maybe that need to
02:27:10be supplied as part of trial any extraordinary trial expenses typically
02:27:16the district attorney engages and secures those goods and services outside
02:27:23of our county procurement process which is the reference to the prosecutorial
02:27:30prosecutorial discretion I think is the word that they use. Would that include
02:27:35travel expenses for witnesses being brought in from out of state? Those
02:27:41should those should be following the county's travel policy it does have a
02:27:46section that deals with extradition and and witnesses again but it applies if
02:27:54you're using the paying for it with county resources seeking reimbursement
02:27:58or using the county's travel card. Would that include special prosecutors
02:28:04independent contractor prosecutors? The DA's use of prosecutorial
02:28:13discretion yes. So that that's captured by this category that yes the audit
02:28:19report is saying yes sir you got some moderate potential for abuse here. Did
02:28:26they specify any particular expenses that seem to be inappropriate in this
02:28:33report or this review?
02:28:37Probably in the larger report there were some instances but I'll have to
02:28:44provide that to you because that's not in this document that I'm looking at now.
02:28:48Okay Ms. Whitmore have you provided that document you've given me a note a book
02:28:53full of things I don't know how much made it to it yet but you're still in
02:28:56progress. I have not the subpoena asked for audit audits. You don't consider this
02:29:05an audit and it's just a review? Yeah it was a review so I did not I did not
02:29:10include it. Could you voluntarily provide me a copy of that report that you have
02:29:14as well as the full report this review? So is that sufficient? Yes yes sir. I
02:29:24appreciate that.
02:29:27There were a number of references to Ms. Willis having significant expenditures
02:29:41for her personal security detail. Is that something that was presented to you in a
02:29:46budget request? So repeat that one sir. There has been testimony for the
02:29:56committee about the district attorney Ms. Willis having significant
02:30:00expenditures for a personal security detail that may even travel with her on
02:30:06these trips that she takes. Is that something that was presented to the
02:30:12Commission as a part of a budget request the cost of that?
02:30:17I don't know the whether or not as a matter of course the district attorney
02:30:29has a security detail. I don't know the answer to that. Did Mr. Howard ever have
02:30:35a security detail? I know that he had we had some security enhancements
02:30:42around his home at one point because of some threats that he received. Okay. Now
02:30:47with respect to district attorney Willis again I don't know whether she routinely
02:30:53had a security detail or whether we paid for one but in this particular instance
02:31:02because of the YSL trial in particular and the YSL stand for young slime life
02:31:14okay so that's the young slime line that's the the gang related prosecution
02:31:20has been going on for a year now yes okay got it because of that trial and
02:31:24the election interference it was came it came to us in executive session that she
02:31:38was receiving as were as worse a number of us me included particularly during
02:31:46the election back in 2020 I had a detail with me but because of the YSL trial and
02:31:53the election interference she was receiving threats bodily harm pretty
02:31:58serious so a report was made to us about that in executive session and a request
02:32:06came to us on her behalf to provide additional security for her and after
02:32:17listening to what was going on we the board listen and then an open session
02:32:25decided and voted to provide additional security for her what's the cost been
02:32:31for that additional security and is it continuing up until today I don't know
02:32:38whether it's continuing but do you have the cost of security as I recall the the
02:32:53full ask that was presented included relocation as well as some hardening of
02:33:00her personal residence and law enforcement support from at least two
02:33:11outside jurisdictions I don't recall what all of the amounts were nor can I
02:33:20tell you that I have seen an invoice from either of those other external
02:33:28jurisdictions the relief the the relocation costs run about four thousand
02:33:37dollars a month was that relocation cost renting her this condominium where she
02:33:43and mr. Wade would meet I don't know the physical address of either of those
02:33:51locations so I really wouldn't be able to answer that question do you know who
02:33:55you're making the payments to for this for the rent we do I do not but I
02:34:03certainly know who we cut a check well I know how to obtain who we cut a check to
02:34:10but I I don't see those expenses every month has that continued the the
02:34:17relocation expense me essentially the county is providing extra security at
02:34:22her personal home but also renting her a separate location she can live in or
02:34:27sleep at now I'm not going to ask you to disclose that location I'm just is that
02:34:32continuing the expenses are continuing and how long have they been going on I
02:34:39believe they began in the later portion of 2022 I don't recall the exact date I
02:34:45would have to to research that miss Joe you had mentioned this I don't know if
02:35:00I'm calling the Civil Rights Office but what what is the county's structure for
02:35:06receiving complaints of employment discrimination against the county or any
02:35:13agency of it so employees who have complaints regarding their employment
02:35:21conditions have a couple of different possible routes one of them is DC RC and
02:35:29I now I am blanking on what the acronym stands for but I think it's the
02:35:33diversity and civil rights compliance okay so it is with diversity and civil
02:35:38rights compliance yes we kind of outsourced our initial point of contact
02:35:42for EEOC type violations internally and that it's an outside of my office and
02:35:49then at some point in the process we may get involved later on down the road but
02:35:55it begins at DC RC and then we also have a whistleblower hotline that is
02:36:01established that routes to our county auditor and whistleblower complaints can
02:36:08be investigated in that manner as well primary route DC RC DC RC is that a
02:36:19confidential process I would say so it is confidential even from me at the
02:36:25outset unless it develops into litigation or an EEOC complaint so it
02:36:30should be confidential from the employees point of view when they present
02:36:34the con the complaint does the employees employer learn of such a
02:36:41complaint type of employment violation I employer meaning their manager or
02:36:48whoever they are the subject of their complaint right I would not expect that
02:36:53person to be made aware unless and until there's a point in the investigation
02:37:00where that becomes necessary in order to obtain necessary information like
02:37:05their explanation or defense yes when they would be made aware of the
02:37:10complaint in order to provide a response and as insofar as the whistleblower
02:37:16hotline that's confidential as well I would presume yes under state
02:37:23whistleblower laws the identity of the whistleblower is kept confidential for
02:37:27as long as possible and does the county have its own whistleblower policy at the
02:37:33county does also have a whistleblower policy is that a written policy I have
02:37:38not looked at it and probably over a decade I believe it's an ordinance that
02:37:44mirrors the state whistleblower statute but I would have to confirm that does it
02:37:49prohibit retaliation against somebody for bringing forth a complaint of
02:37:53impropriety or wrongdoing I would expect that it does include that because
02:38:00if it mirrors the statute then it would include the anti-retaliation provisions
02:38:04so how long have you been with the county attorney's office two and a half
02:38:10years as a county attorney and then ten years prior to coming back as the county
02:38:16attorney I was a line attorney in the office for four years what do you make
02:38:26of this constitutional officer argument so to speak that constitutional officers
02:38:32are not subject to any supervision or control by the county commission so are
02:38:43you asking for my personal opinion or my understanding of the state of the law
02:38:47I'd love to have them both let's start with the law because we may be looking
02:38:53for ways to change laws and I'd be interested in your personal views from
02:38:57your experience so as to the state of the law I will say that the challenge
02:39:04presented for my office for the board and to some extent I would imagine for
02:39:09the officers involved is that there is this inherent conflict created by the
02:39:16state of the law wherein there are certain elected officials who are
02:39:22essentially embedded with the county provided facilities by the county
02:39:27provided either employees or supplemental employees by the county
02:39:31equipment by the county a budget for operations by the county those officials
02:39:38must interact with the county for example in order to process payment
02:39:43vouchers they have to come back to the county even in instances where they may
02:39:49have independence or latitude in contracting for example they still need
02:39:55to come back to the county finance department in order to get a check cut
02:39:59in order to pay on these contracts that they may have control over but they
02:40:05can't cut a check directly to the vendor so there is this kind of built-in tug of
02:40:12war where two parties who are essentially operating independently one
02:40:19is funding another without any necessary input or oversight into the process or
02:40:26you know any of the contracting but essentially is on the hook when it comes
02:40:34to processing the payments when it comes to supplementing budgets after
02:40:39the fact in order to make up for budgetary shortfalls because of those
02:40:44expenditures and ultimately may be left with the legal liability and exposure
02:40:52should there be any issue with the way in which those services were obtained so
02:40:58I do believe there is there are some some practical and legal challenges for
02:41:03all counties and elected officials who are in this kind of in-between state
02:41:11where you have independence but you depend on the county for finances and
02:41:15processing and where the county has an obligation to fund but doesn't have any
02:41:20control over ensuring any kind of standards or protocols in the
02:41:27expenditure of those funds very well stated if you are probably is
02:41:34knowledgeable in this interface of the county governments and state elected
02:41:40officials or county elected officials in case of a DA is any attorney around if
02:41:47you have suggestions to our committee on how we might could clean this up a bit
02:41:54the statutory amendments or modifications please feel free to give
02:41:59those to me and while I have you there at the witness chair as the county
02:42:06attorney I have mentioned to you sort of pre-meeting if there are any documents
02:42:12that you have produced to us so far you've got the whole notebook in front
02:42:17of you or that you may produce in the future as you complete the document
02:42:22production that you feel like you contain confidential personal
02:42:27information or otherwise privileged information please identify that to me
02:42:33you've been so good here to have all these documents bait stamped so we can
02:42:38very clearly identify which pages you're talking about then I will treat them as
02:42:44confidential within this committee we will not be making these documents
02:42:49public other than available for review of committee members until I hear back
02:42:53from you hopefully in the next week or two thank you mr. chairman okay thank
02:42:59you at this time I am going to turn the chair over to you madam leader or any
02:43:05designate for the minority party if there's additional questions anybody
02:43:09might want to make it this time
02:43:15Mike nine that Senator Harold Jones Harold Jones all right question number
02:43:23ten and also you're recognized and there's also in Cinderella's also asked
02:43:30a couple of questions to a little bit like one but I may cover all of them
02:43:34I've been noticing that I was just looking at the the code section 15 18 20
02:43:48that is one of the things that we maybe have some purview so the issue about the
02:43:55district attorney and the spending now that has been really the law in Georgia
02:44:01for forever I mean with even the case that you you cited the amusement sales
02:44:08case that case sites a case that goes all the way back to 1984 which makes
02:44:13clear that this language about may should not be read as a shell at all
02:44:18that it is a may and that basically it's an agreement is it not right between the
02:44:23district attorney's office and the county and the local governor and
02:44:26authority of how they do this and that that's been how we've been operating for
02:44:31years in Georgia is that not correct yes I would agree that the construction
02:44:39that's contained in the three cases that I mentioned has been well established
02:44:44since at least the 1980s and when we talk about trying to change that one of
02:44:51the other offices that will come under that particular change if we change this
02:44:55particular statute would also have to be the sheriff's officers to they would
02:44:58also have to be changed to I guess in degree of fairness we wouldn't just
02:45:02change one office would we so I'm I'm not sure that an amendment to this
02:45:06statute would impact them since it is specifically about a district attorney's
02:45:10authority to hire assistant district attorneys well in reality what isn't it
02:45:16actually what we're really talking about is the constitutional office not
02:45:19necessarily just district attorneys or are y'all only making the position that
02:45:23the district attorney should be subject to a change and no other constitutional
02:45:28officer be subject to a change I'm just I'm asking any any all three of you so
02:45:34repeat the question is the argument that only district attorneys as constitutional
02:45:38officers should be subject to a change but no other constitutional officers
02:45:42should be subject to a change as far as their spending patterns are concerned
02:45:45no it's not it's not specific to the district attorney is the issue that I
02:45:50have and I just be in all openness honesty my position is different from
02:45:57that of my colleagues I have a philosophical difference with this
02:46:03notion of a constitutional officer being able to spend money that the legislative
02:46:10body has appropriated any way that he or she chooses it may be I understand the
02:46:16words it may be legal but being gay was illegal at one point interracial
02:46:22marriage rule it was illegal segregation we're not illegal yeah well
02:46:27that's illegal discrimination was legal so I have a philosophical difference
02:46:34with that I think that we appropriate money and not and I'm not singling out
02:46:38the it's all of them that that's the difference so my colleagues don't see it
02:46:44as I see it I understand but to be consistent we have to also include the
02:46:47sheriff absolutely and the tax commission is for yes and also the
02:46:52clerk's office and the clerk's office would include all of those yes this may
02:46:55be splitting hairs but I do want to clarify that the constitutional
02:46:58officers under the county constitutional officers are just the four the sheriff
02:47:03the probate judge the clerk of the Superior Court and the tax commissioner
02:47:08we would consider the district attorney to be a state constitutional officer
02:47:12which is right some differences they have the same kind of purview over their
02:47:16budget as the others do as far as they have some additional latitude and
02:47:21independence than other other elected officials yes the sheriff when you're
02:47:27saying the sheriff doesn't have latitude in his budget I'm saying that I just
02:47:35want to make sure that we understand that the sheriff and the other county
02:47:39constitutional officers don't have exactly the same independent rights as
02:47:46the state constitutional officers and I'll clarify them all together
02:47:52OCGA 1518 20 applies only to the district attorney yes bites very on the
02:48:00face of it it doesn't apply to clerks and tax commissioners and sheriff's
02:48:03department statute has nothing it's not based on the fact that she is a state
02:48:06officer or state constitutional officer it's just based on the statutory
02:48:10authority of all district attorneys but mr. chair as far as like when you're
02:48:15talking about the budget process you would say that those special sheriffs
02:48:18they do have that opportunity to kind of control their budgets is that not right
02:48:21and they not also use the same argument that you cannot control their budget as
02:48:25a sheriff ever told you that mr. chair me yes okay I'm sorry I thought you're
02:48:33asking the county attorney as a sheriff ever came to you and said that you also
02:48:36do not have purview over his or her budget absolutely absolutely yeah
02:48:40absolutely the four constitutional officers and and the district attorney
02:48:46who is a state constitutional officer yeah the five of them then they all say
02:48:51that absolutely again my philosophical difference with that is I just it
02:48:56doesn't make any sense to me that we don't have can't tell them or have no
02:49:02no control over how they spend their money we appropriate the money based upon
02:49:07specific requests and it's approved based upon specific requests so when
02:49:13they get it then they believe they can spend it anyway they see fit and I just
02:49:17disagree with that and also um just along those same lines the only thing
02:49:22that's one of the things it's a shell in this particular statute is that the
02:49:26district attorney actually shall be able to actually define the title of the
02:49:33person that she hires or he hires they were able to do that and also fix that
02:49:37compensation so that's the only shell really in here as far as this statute
02:49:41is concerned is that not right that they have the opportunity to fix the title as
02:49:45far as the title that they're going to give the other employee that they hire
02:49:49so with mr. Wade is it not right or anyone else any other district attorney
02:49:54they can give them any title that they want to as far as the statute is
02:49:57concerned that was perfectly within the district attorneys purview
02:50:02which subsection are you citing from yeah the district attorney shall define
02:50:10the duties and fix the title line 7 on subsection a
02:50:21oh I see so that's been completely within his or her purview to do that
02:50:26according to the statute to fix the title to determine what they're going to
02:50:33so he or she would not have to come to the County Commission to say that I want
02:50:37to have a special prosecutor for a specific event with a selection
02:50:43integrity or anything of that nature because he or she shall be able to fix
02:50:47that particular title in their job duties is that not correct that's
02:50:50correct okay also kind of looking at this from a
02:50:57liability standpoint I'm just curious from a liability standpoint if you guys
02:51:04were to start having more control over the district attorney's budget is there
02:51:10any concern I'm asking County Attorney is there any concern from a liability
02:51:14standpoint because you know you have a lot of these cases where persons would
02:51:16sue the district attorney sue the sheriff but also sue the county and the
02:51:22case law says well they're separate entities and so therefore you can't
02:51:27sue the county you guys for what the sheriff does or what the DA does
02:51:31because they're separate and what the court would do is go through a litany of
02:51:34things to show the separation and one of those is that you guys don't control the
02:51:39budget of the DA or the sheriff would there be any concern that that
02:51:44separation then would leave and now all of a sudden when somebody sues the
02:51:49district attorney's office they might be to sue you too would you have that kind
02:51:54of concern so one of my least favorite things is running a complete legal
02:52:00analysis on the spot because I don't think it's very thorough but just as an
02:52:05initial matter as a practical matter we are always sued with the official in any
02:52:12in most cases we frequently provide representation under our plan of defense
02:52:18once we undertake representation we also provide payment of the judgment
02:52:26should there be one so we are already on the hook so to speak if we are sued with
02:52:31them I think and to make it clear I don't know that any of us are here to
02:52:36take a position on what should be done I think that is within the purview of your
02:52:41body to make legislative recommendations but an argument in favor of more control
02:52:47might be that if we are on the hook for the liability that it it is we don't
02:52:57have any control over the actions of the officials who are generating the
02:53:01potential liability but remain on the hook for providing defense and also
02:53:07payment of the judgment but in normally in those cases you guys are actually
02:53:11dismissed and there's actually a question about especially for sheriffs
02:53:14whether you're actually technically on the hook or not once we are County the
02:53:18county will pay it once we okay I will say this in the 27 years that I have
02:53:23worked in government defense I have never known any of the governmental
02:53:28entities I have worked with not to pay the judgment should there be one after
02:53:33we have undertaken representation and under the current iteration of our plan
02:53:38of defense in Fulton County once we undertake representation unless there is
02:53:45cause and we discontinue representation we would be providing payment of the
02:53:51judgment should there be one or settlement but from a standpoint being
02:53:56sued mr. chair without give you any concern that when a district attorney
02:54:00now I sue they're also going to bring they can legally bring in Fulton County
02:54:04if you guys started trying to dictate salaries this possibility that that
02:54:09could happen would that give you any concern probably okay and I bring that
02:54:17up because just in two in first many cases but in 2023 you have a federal
02:54:24court case that says Fulton County has to be dismissed because the law in
02:54:31Georgia shows that exclusively that the district attorney is a separate entity
02:54:37from the county and one of the things that they point out is that the district
02:54:42attorney controls the compensation and counties only possess the power to
02:54:46approve the amount and so I guess my point just is you said would concern you
02:54:51if you get into the business now of actually trying to control compensation
02:54:54it might just do it intermingling that's just a question that I had and you and
02:54:59you answered it someone has spoken about the open checkbook can you kind of
02:55:07tell us about that that you were saying you could go online about the open
02:55:10checkbook can you kind of tell us what that is it's an open part of our open
02:55:17government platform if you go to the county's website under inside Fulton
02:55:25on the far right inside Fulton scroll down from that you'll find a button that
02:55:33you can press that will take you to our open government platform we have we have
02:55:40open budget where you can go and look and see what the budget and actual
02:55:44expenditures are open checkbook I believe it goes back five years includes vendor
02:55:50payments it's updated currently I believe it's updated on a weekly basis
02:55:55but that information has been out there for for a while it's it's been we've had
02:56:03a service interruption as a result of our cyber incident so we're just now in
02:56:09the last week or so been able to bring that back online yeah because my
02:56:13colleague over here is totally fascinated by it because you can
02:56:15actually pull up every count not County every law firm or whatever that's
02:56:20getting business in real time and see exactly what their bills are can you not
02:56:24you can see their payment payments right yeah right you can actually see their
02:56:28payments amount up to I believe you said it's updated weekly yes it should be
02:56:35updated weekly so a lot of the questions that we have as far as like payments and
02:56:39openness it seems to me that you guys actually are very open for doing way
02:56:44Richmond County quite frankly that you guys are very open as far as how this
02:56:47process works we we have been working on our transparency for a while now but yes
02:56:55we we try to have as much information available as possible
02:57:05I don't have anything else mr. senator Jones while we get you here as an ex
02:57:13solicitor how was a solicitor's budget handled is it the same as the DA's are
02:57:19different is it it's a similar situation solicitors are elected by the people for
02:57:27their judicial circuit are there are they on a county basis or judicial
02:57:33circuit oh well if you have when you're on a county basis okay because every
02:57:37county is not does not necessarily have to have a solicitor they would only have
02:57:41that if they had a state court right okay yeah so the way our budget solicitor
02:57:46and the county's yes totally totally okay and so the way it works is you just
02:57:50apply put your budget request in they approve it or don't approve it which
02:57:54normally they're going to approve it and they give you a lot of discretion now
02:57:57can a solicitor have the same opportunity to say as a constitutional
02:58:01that was my next question yeah can we do we have that same opportunity no but it
02:58:05also is a prosecutor's office so normally they're very they're more open
02:58:10as far as a hands-off exactly allow for a latitude as far as that is concerned
02:58:15especially on prosecutorial discretion yes absolutely so no state funds go to
02:58:20fund a solicitor or assistant solicitors if they it can be like like a victim's
02:58:25assistance grant or something of that nature may be in there but other than
02:58:29that prosecute right here like a domestic violence but that might be in
02:58:32there that's something new that we was around when I was there but but
02:58:36primarily you go into the county that has been sort of banging around in my
02:58:42mind when you started talking about all the different type of courts that the
02:58:46Orca funds went to some of those are County only like your magistrate courts
02:58:53your municipal court your state court whereas superior court system now you're
02:58:57into state salaries etc okay y'all have been fantastic and very patient and very
02:59:05cooperative with our committee and we appreciate that thank you all for being
02:59:09here today and I will await any additional documents that you might be
02:59:15able to produce to me and miss Joe of course if you'll let me know about
02:59:20anything that's privileged or confidential before we put anything
02:59:24posted to the public side I will and I also committed that I would look at the
02:59:29ethics code regarding gifts and honoraria and I wanted to let you know
02:59:34that I did find the sections that I was thinking of you will tell me yes I will
02:59:39go through it real quickly hopefully so there is a prohibition for of any
02:59:46officer employee to solicit or receive any gift from a prohibited source the
02:59:55prohibited source is defined as someone among other things who is seeking
03:00:02official action from or seeking to do business with the county as far as the
03:00:08disclosure requirements every year there are certain officials who are required
03:00:13to fire file a financial disclosure this includes all elected officials of
03:00:19Fulton County and one of the things that is required to be reported is any
03:00:28honorarium from a single source in an aggregate amount of 500 or more and it
03:00:34also includes going back to the $100 or less for nominal gifts that are excluded
03:00:41from the prohibition if you receive something of value of $100 or more that
03:00:47should be included in your disclosure as well does that have an ordinance number
03:00:51yes it is code sections 2-67 and 2-69 and 2-79 all of those are part of our
03:01:11ethics code that are codified as ordinance for Fulton County what do you
03:01:15call the disclosure form you mentioned I guess it's a gift disclosure and
03:01:20it's an annual financial disclosure the section is entitled disclosure of income
03:01:26and financial interest so you list any income you make outside of the county
03:01:31and other real property that's owned and any gifts that were received any
03:01:38financial interests that are covered in these in these sections A through C need
03:01:47to be included in the disclosure and that is required to be filed by the
03:01:51district attorney as well as an elected official she would be required to file I
03:01:56am required to file most of our executive team is required to file
03:02:00Switmore have I requested that in your opinion you have and it's included in
03:02:05your binder section 11 all right partially included partially included
03:02:12section I understand it's a work in progress and I know the cyber attack has
03:02:16been a problem and whatnot y'all doing everything we can committee members I
03:02:21apologize for the late notice of this meeting and I appreciate Charles efforts
03:02:24to be here I am looking at my calendar now for a potential next meeting and I
03:02:31wanted to bounce off of you guys the dates of May 23rd or 24th that's a
03:02:36Thursday Friday three weeks out if you don't have to tell me right here on the
03:02:41spot but if you always please check your schedules and let me know because I
03:02:45certainly want to accommodate everybody's spending their time with
03:02:48this committee and just bounce it back off to me or my admin Cindy and we'll
03:02:54let you know in the next week or so if we're gonna be able to have that and
03:02:58with that we are adjourned thank you

Recommended

3:44:29
I
Up next
House Rules Committee Debates Anti-ICC Bill After Arrest Warrants Issued Of Israel's Netanyahu
Forbes Breaking News
43:38
BREAKING NEWS: GOP Senators Tear Into Biden Over New Executive Order On Border Security And Asylum
Forbes Breaking News
3:53
Raul Ruiz Asked Point Blank: 'What's Your Position On Gain Of Function Research?'
Forbes Breaking News
3:56
Top Dem Defends 6-Foot Social Distancing After Bombshell Fauci Admission It 'Wasn't Based On Data'
Forbes Breaking News
0:33
AOC: 'Patently Unproductive' To Have Israel's Netanyahu Address Congress
Forbes Breaking News
14:50
Chuck Grassley Calls Out Hillary Clinton & Crossfire Hurricane In Response To Trump Guilty Verdict
Forbes Breaking News
14:38
'We Should've Been Honest': Brad Wenstrup Confronts Fauci Over His Handling Of COVID-19 Pandemic
Forbes Breaking News
2:26
JUST IN: Hunter Biden Arrives At Wilmington, Delaware, Federal Court For Hearing In His Gun Trial
Forbes Breaking News
31:46
BREAKING NEWS: Speaker Johnson, House GOP Leaders Rip 'Sham Trial' That Led To Trump Guilty Verdict
Forbes Breaking News
13:33
Bernie Sanders Slams 'Netanyahu And His Extremist Government' After Biden Announces Ceasefire Deal
Forbes Breaking News
7:08
BREAKING NEWS: Matt Gaetz Directly Confronts Merrick Garland About 'Lawfare Against Trump'
Forbes Breaking News
1:19
BREAKING NEWS: First Lady Dr. Jill Biden Arrives At Federal Court For Hunter Biden’s Gun Trial
Forbes Breaking News
4:01
'I Know Where You're Going': Fauci Grilled By GOP's Lawyer About Gain-Of-Function Research
Forbes Breaking News
31:31
WATCH: GOP Lawyer Spends Half An Hour Questioning Dr. Fauci About Vaccine Mandates, 6-Foot Rule
Forbes Breaking News
2:22
Dr. Fauci Asked Point Blank About How 6-Foot Social Distancing Rule Came About
Forbes Breaking News
1:10
Marjorie Taylor Greene Says Funding Government 'Does Not Matter' After Trump Guilty Verdict
Forbes Breaking News
1:07
VIRAL MOMENT: John Rose’s Son Steals The Show Making Funny Faces Behind Dad’s House Floor Speech
Forbes Breaking News
7:42
JUST IN: Senate Democrats Warn Of Threats To Reproductive Rights After Dobbs Decision
Forbes Breaking News
11:28
'Enormously Disappointed': Chrissy Houlahan Fires Back At Beth Van Duyne Over Abortion Amendment
Forbes Breaking News
1:19
JUST IN: Famed Sex Therapist, Dr. Ruth Westheimer, Dies At 96
Forbes Breaking News
4:05
Political Scientist Reveals Issues In Minnesota Under Gov. Tim Walz
Forbes Breaking News
7:25
‘SBA Has Failed To Substantially Produce Documents’: Beth Van Duyne Presses Offical On Delay
Forbes Breaking News
2:49
Jeff Duncan Slaps Biden Admin. Energy Mandates: They’re ‘Increasing Costs' For Home Appliances
Forbes Breaking News
2:02:23
AAPI Caucus Holds Meeting On Third Day Of Democratic National Convention In Chicago, Illinois
Forbes Breaking News
1:30
Harris For President Campaign Spokesperson Previews Tim Walz’s DNC Speech During Press Briefing
Forbes Breaking News