The French duo discuss their new album, winding up Anthony Kiedis and their whopping new stage show
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00:00 Either it's less good than the original song, so what is it for?
00:06 Or it's better and it destroys the original song and then it becomes a problem.
00:11 So there's not really a win-win situation in a remix.
00:17 Hi I'm Nick and I'm joined by Justice for the latest Enemies in Conversation series.
00:28 How's it going today?
00:30 We're good and you?
00:31 Very well thank you.
00:32 Thanks for joining us in London, you just got in last night.
00:34 Yes.
00:35 Do you like coming to London? Is it somewhere you've been to a lot over the years?
00:38 Yeah, I used to live in London in the late 2000s.
00:44 And yeah, I think I prefer visiting than living in London.
00:49 How did you find living in London back then?
00:52 The city is huge and we have a couple of friends in London.
01:00 And I think the years I was living in London was the time I saw them the less.
01:07 Because it's hard to be spontaneous and say, "Oh, let's meet this afternoon."
01:13 And then you have to ride in a car for an hour and a half.
01:16 And Paris is like a village compared to London really.
01:21 You can walk and...
01:24 It feels much more like, yeah, walkable like you say.
01:26 Like you can kind of get everywhere in about 45 minutes on foot
01:29 rather than an hour and a half in a cab.
01:30 Yeah, that's pretty much it, yeah.
01:33 Well yeah, you've got a new album out, coming out, Hyperdrama.
01:36 What was the starting point for the album?
01:38 Did like one song spark it off or one idea?
01:42 There was like several ideas that were leading the album.
01:48 And some of those ideas we've been thinking of for years.
01:55 If I had to sum it up in two words, in one line,
02:02 but I would be a bit reductive because there's much more to it.
02:04 But yeah, Hyperdrama, it's a disco album made with hardcore techno sounds.
02:11 Cool. When did you start work on it?
02:14 We started a week before the pandemic, before the lockdown.
02:21 And so we met at the studio, started talking about it for a couple of days,
02:28 then shut down everything, spent like four months apart.
02:31 And then we started again in summer 2020.
02:36 And we finished in November 2023.
02:40 It's quite a long process.
02:42 Yeah, it was. It was.
02:44 And it was nice to be...
02:47 Like we really started this album in the mindset that we had like unlimited time to do it.
02:56 Because by the time we started, Woman, our previous album,
03:00 had already been out for four years.
03:04 And it's always been like this in Justice,
03:06 that every time we start working on a new record,
03:10 we're already too late to be in a rush.
03:14 So we're like, OK, let's start making an album.
03:18 We have these ideas.
03:19 Let's push them to the limits of what we can achieve.
03:25 And we'll see when it's finished.
03:29 But from the moment we started,
03:31 we also knew that it would be a time consuming album to make for many reasons.
03:38 And also when we spent like three years and a half working on an album,
03:41 it's not like three years and a half working 12 hours a day,
03:47 every day of the week on the record.
03:49 Like we worked a bit, then we take a week off,
03:54 then we work a bit, a couple of days.
03:57 It was like regular, but we were not like forcing anything.
04:04 And it was long. Only when we finished it,
04:08 we realized that it had been three years and a half of work,
04:12 because despite the length of the recording and the production,
04:18 it really felt very smooth and fluid.
04:21 So, yeah.
04:23 How did you know when the album was done?
04:25 Ah, you know it here.
04:28 It's just it's a gut feeling thing.
04:29 Yeah, always.
04:31 I think I saw in a previous interview that you said you like to work like a week on,
04:34 a week off every other week.
04:36 Yes.
04:36 Why is that?
04:37 Is that so you can kind of get a bit of space on the ideas and a bit of kind of objective?
04:42 Yeah, it's always good to have some perspective on what you've just done.
04:48 And then you can refine stuff way quicker,
04:52 because when you're too much into it,
04:56 then you can lose a bit of the general picture.
05:00 There's two tracks on the album featuring Tame Impala's Kevin Parker.
05:04 Yeah.
05:04 Never Ender and One Night, All Night.
05:07 How did that collaboration come about and what made you want to bring him on board?
05:11 Well, we've been listening to Kevin's music from like,
05:17 almost like the beginning of Tame Impala,
05:21 like in the late 2000s, before the release of the first album.
05:27 And to be honest, we liked the first album,
05:33 but we really understood like the genius of Tame Impala
05:40 when I think it was around 2011 or 2012.
05:45 We, before the release of Lonerism,
05:49 we've been sent Elephant to make a remix of it.
05:53 And when we heard this track,
05:56 we really felt that he had something more.
06:01 And I say we felt he had something more.
06:03 At the time, we still believed Tame Impala was like a band.
06:07 We didn't know it was like a one-man band.
06:09 But we had to turn it down because the song was too good.
06:13 And we replied saying, we're not going to do a remix
06:17 because we can't think of anything we could do that
06:22 potentially is going to make it better.
06:23 You know, like for us, the song was perfect.
06:27 And it was hitting like so many things right at the same time.
06:31 And it's rare to have like this type of bands or songs
06:38 that everybody agrees on when we receive that song.
06:42 And then like things starting to unfold,
06:46 like everybody liked it,
06:47 like from like the people who listen to electronic music,
06:50 people who listen to rock music,
06:52 people who listen to pop music,
06:54 people who like very intelligent music or whatever,
06:58 like everybody was thinking, OK, that's the best thing happening right now.
07:03 And so we always had him in the corner of our minds.
07:09 But then we started working on our album
07:11 and we felt it was the right moment to maybe try something.
07:17 Because although Tame Impala's music and ours is very different,
07:24 listening to his music and listening to the evolution of Tame Impala,
07:28 we felt that the common ground is really big.
07:35 And there's a lot of things that we share in terms of like taste
07:39 and ways of making things.
07:42 So we said, OK, why not?
07:46 You know, it's like doesn't cost anything.
07:48 Either it works and it's cool, it doesn't work.
07:51 Worst thing that can happen is that you spend a couple of days having fun.
07:57 And so, yes, we got in touch, I think, late 2020 or early 2021.
08:06 And we were working on those songs on the span of a couple of years,
08:12 meeting, working a bit, then just like going separate ways,
08:17 meeting again like six months after,
08:19 working a bit again on the songs, then like going away.
08:24 And that was good.
08:25 That's a very good way of making things.
08:26 You know, it's like you brew like a liquor or whatever,
08:31 then you let it age in a barrel.
08:33 Then you come back a couple of years later, taste it,
08:36 think like, yeah, OK, I can leave it one more year.
08:39 Maybe I'm going to add a bit of like oak
08:42 or I'm going to transfer it to another barrel.
08:44 And we feel it's very healthy to just take time to let things rest
08:51 and at least for us it works.
08:57 You said that you found Kevin Parker had a very fascinating approach to melody.
09:04 I was wondering, what is it about his kind of songwriting
09:07 that is fascinating in that way?
09:09 This is actually like one of the only example I can think of
09:15 to have made such an uncompromising type of music that is very personal.
09:24 And you can identify like at the first two bars, you know it's him.
09:32 And he has this special quality that we love.
09:37 It's always melancholic, but it's always hopeful.
09:42 And it's never dull.
09:47 And yeah, he's really like one of the greats of this generation.
09:56 Nobody really managed to do this at such a high scale.
10:00 And it's amazing he's now kind of moving into the pop world
10:02 producing Dua Lipa's album.
10:04 I mean, he's kind of crossing genres.
10:07 Yeah, that suits him well.
10:08 I remember we had this talk when we were working on those songs
10:14 about like the...
10:16 And that's just for us, you know, like we told him
10:20 every time he releases a new album,
10:23 like the first listen, we're like, "Okay, that's fine, you know.
10:27 That's cool."
10:28 You know, not whatever because it's like it's cool, but like fine.
10:33 And then you listen to it again.
10:35 And I hear that's pretty good, you know.
10:38 And then before you know it, you know all the songs by heart
10:41 and they just like penetrated you.
10:43 And then we saw him live like during the recording.
10:48 And then like the show unrolls and this is when you realize
10:52 that you are listening to 25 hits in a row.
10:56 Yet you know all the songs.
10:58 And we noticed that also with like the songs we made together,
11:03 that there's something that sounds really simple in appearance.
11:08 But actually all the choices are very, very specific.
11:13 The choices of notes and it sounds very streamlined and simple,
11:20 but it's way more complex than what it appears to be.
11:25 And for example, like the...
11:30 We're working on the live show now.
11:33 And one part of the live show is like to sometimes like to go
11:38 from one song to another, we have to take the vocals of one track
11:40 and then put it to another one.
11:43 And for example, "One Night", it only works on "One Night".
11:47 Like it's the...
11:48 I think it's the first time that we can't put a bit of vocals
11:51 on any other track.
11:53 It's really like precise everything.
11:57 And even when we're working, sometimes we're a bit surprised
12:01 by the choice that he would make.
12:05 And we're like, "Yeah, but it would be like maybe more natural
12:08 to do it like this."
12:09 He was like, "No, no, no.
12:10 Like we're doing it like that."
12:13 And finally then after a couple of days,
12:17 it seems impossible for the line to be something else than what it is.
12:22 So it's, yeah, it's really fascinating.
12:23 - Yeah, he's very good at writing grow words.
12:26 Like it seems simple at first and you're like, "Okay, cool."
12:31 And then it just becomes this kind of earworm
12:35 and yeah, he has a real talent for this.
12:38 - But earworm with the twist and with some things,
12:40 yeah, no, it's really good.
12:43 - We'll have Miguel on the album.
12:44 His voice sounds incredible on that track.
12:46 What made you want to work with him?
12:48 - Actually, yeah, we always loved what he was doing.
12:51 Yeah, we got introduced to Miguel's music by a British lady.
12:56 Actually, she's called Mara Carlyle and on "Woman," our previous album,
13:03 we worked with her for all like the orchestral sessions
13:08 and the choirs and everything.
13:09 She was like our, how do you say, inside man or inside woman rather
13:20 with all of the orchestral work.
13:23 And so she's like, I don't think you can be more British lady than she is
13:31 and she's like, she really bathed in the classical music environment.
13:37 And she told us, "Oh, you should check out this guy, Miguel."
13:39 And she played us "The Valley," which is like a very sleazy track
13:43 that sounds a bit like nine-inch nails but with this like twist, of course.
13:48 And we really, yeah, we fell in love with his music.
13:53 And coincidentally, he got in touch with us the following year to propose
14:02 if we could maybe make something for him and just make some music.
14:07 And we did try a couple of things, but it was not working.
14:14 There was no real magic to it.
14:16 It was like serviceable but not good enough.
14:20 But we didn't like, what's the word?
14:25 Yeah, we still wanted to try some things.
14:27 So every once in a while, we get in touch.
14:30 And when we made "Saturn Nine," same thing.
14:34 We thought, OK, maybe this one will work.
14:37 And we brought him like an early demo of the song.
14:42 Went to visit him in Los Angeles and we worked on the track.
14:47 At this point in your career, what makes an artist someone
14:50 you want to work with?
14:51 Because I guess in theory, you could reach out to absolutely anyone.
14:53 But the thing is that we were always attracted to those kind of falsetto voices.
15:06 And it's not the first time we're doing it because we've been collaborating
15:10 with a lot of vocalists over the years.
15:14 But I guess the main common point between all these artists is that they are used
15:23 to do everything by themselves most of the time in home studios.
15:29 If you take Miguel or the Flints or Raymond, Colin Mocasin, most of them
15:36 are just completely self-sufficient.
15:40 And they have a very strong and unique--
15:47 yeah, they just deliver something that is very special.
15:51 And so to us, it was, OK, we like your universe.
15:55 And maybe if we do something together, it's going
16:00 to make something new for everybody.
16:04 And yeah, I think beyond the musical taste, because of course,
16:08 the first thing we're looking for is something that we feel is going
16:14 to produce good music at the end.
16:16 For us, maybe the most important parameter is integrity.
16:21 And we love people who just pursue something that is not always consensual.
16:28 It doesn't prevent them.
16:29 And Thundercat or Kevin or Miguel are very good example
16:34 that you can make it without being too consensual or overtly trying
16:43 to please the people.
16:46 And so yeah, that's the good package for us, integrity, good music.
16:54 All the people we want to work with have at least those two qualities.
16:58 Heavy metal's obviously been an influence on Justice from the start.
17:02 Would you want to work with a heavy metal vocalist?
17:04 Is that something you think could work?
17:06 Or is it too obvious in a way?
17:07 No, but it's mostly about the imagery that we--
17:15 and obviously, in the beginnings, the distortion.
17:18 But we never really felt it was a huge influence on us.
17:24 And probably the thing we like the least in heavy metal is the vocals.
17:32 But we like the classical influences, the technicity, and mostly the imagery.
17:41 It's still fascinating.
17:42 So maybe a metal musician rather than the vocalist
17:45 could be a collaborator.
17:47 Yeah, I mean, you are a big fan of Steve Vai, right?
17:53 Yeah, more Joe Satriani.
17:54 Joe Satriani, yeah.
17:55 Yeah, but as Gaspard said, weirdly enough,
17:59 because I think a lot of people associate Justice with heavy metal,
18:04 it's of all the contemporary genres, I think
18:07 it's one of the music styles that appeals to us the least.
18:12 I never listen to metal at home.
18:14 But we have one song called "Heavy Metal."
18:16 Yeah, but that's because of the magazine.
18:20 But yeah, although we listen to a lot of rock music, and as far as I'm
18:26 concerned, this is the main--
18:29 most of the time, if I play a record, it's going to be a rock record.
18:34 Yeah, I don't really feel attracted to heavy metal.
18:40 And that's kind of counterintuitive, because OK, we're
18:47 going to present you a heavy metal band, and it's
18:49 meant to sound very powerful and abrasive.
18:53 And in most cases, it sounds like this.
18:55 Even compared to--
18:57 I mean, you listen to any track on Electric Warrior,
19:02 and any track on an old Slayer record, and the T-Rex track
19:10 is going to sound massive and just with way more power,
19:14 because that's the power.
19:15 That's the soft power, the power of having space,
19:19 and not playing as fast as you can.
19:24 So no, it's like we do like some stuff, but it's really not something
19:28 that we take inspiration from.
19:31 I hope I'm not going to make a lot of enemies
19:35 from all the heavy metal scene.
19:39 It's all right.
19:39 We're not Kerrang!
19:41 We do love the concept of heavy metal, though.
19:44 Yeah, I think we like the idea more than the music.
19:47 Yeah, the imagery is so cool.
19:48 I totally get that.
19:50 You mentioned putting the live show together.
19:52 How are you feeling about playing Glastonbury this summer?
19:55 I think first time since 2017.
19:57 There's such a long gap between every tour and every album
20:01 that we always feel that we start again from zero.
20:05 Like every time we make something, we come back.
20:09 We really feel like rookies again.
20:11 Everything is new again.
20:13 The world is also changing so fast that really, we
20:18 have no idea what it's like to play in a festival now.
20:21 We have no idea what's the crowd.
20:24 We have no idea what's like--
20:26 we have a slight idea, but not really,
20:29 but what's the scene?
20:32 What are the expectations of people?
20:35 Everything is completely new again.
20:37 Do you like being on the road?
20:39 I mean, as you said, it's been a while since you've done it.
20:41 We like the result of being on the road.
20:44 And we like, after a while, the thing to see.
20:48 So that was the show.
20:50 That was cool.
20:51 This was nice, you know?
20:55 But being on the road, per se, it's cool, you know?
21:00 And there's a lot of moments of fun.
21:02 But we're definitely more studio guys than stage guys.
21:08 Maybe things would be different if we
21:10 had like the charisma of Mick Jagger or whatever, you know?
21:17 But things are a way that we prefer being in a studio.
21:22 You did make a tour documentary before,
21:24 I think 2008, Across the Universe.
21:26 Would you do that again?
21:27 No.
21:28 It could only be made once.
21:31 And we did it.
21:32 And we knew it.
21:33 That was the statement of this documentary.
21:36 It was like, let's make it, because it's now or never.
21:40 In two years, we're already going to be too old to do that.
21:44 And also, we made it, so we are never
21:51 tempted to make a documentary about ourselves that's
21:57 a documentary that's meant to make a good publicity
22:02 of your band, you know?
22:04 We can't imagine ever making a documentary where
22:07 you interview people and say, yeah, Justice is very--
22:11 it's a great band.
22:14 But there was like pioneers, or you know what I mean?
22:16 Say it's the worst.
22:18 So we're like, let's make one documentary.
22:21 We're going to make--
22:22 we're going to make full of ourselves, actually,
22:24 because this is what this documentary is about.
22:27 But we love the idea of embracing the rock and roll
22:31 cliches as we fantasize them being kids in the '90s born
22:40 and raised in France.
22:42 So for us, it's almost exotic.
22:45 And that was, yeah, that was a once in a lifetime thing.
22:51 And so now this is done, and we'll never do a documentary.
22:56 Have you watched the documentary back recently?
22:58 Or is it like, no, it's in the past?
23:00 No, I haven't seen it since it got released, actually.
23:04 Now we've seen a bit here and there, but--
23:07 Yeah, I saw the bit resurfacing where
23:10 I sing "Under the Bridge" to Anthony Kiedis' face, which
23:16 was very embarrassing even to do, you know what I mean?
23:19 Because, yeah, this documentary was shot
23:24 in a very short amount of time.
23:28 So we had to have the maximum of footage
23:31 and just make things happen.
23:34 Otherwise, there would be nothing happening.
23:37 And so with him, and I started singing to his face,
23:41 and that was very long.
23:43 This album, "Hyperdrive," is very cinematic in places.
23:46 Would you be interested in doing a film score in the future?
23:50 Yeah, never say never, but it's very--
23:53 it's so restrictive in many ways that we'll have
23:57 to find the right project.
24:00 But we would love to, yeah.
24:01 There's many fields where we feel
24:04 that there would be something interesting to do.
24:08 But the film score, it often sounds
24:14 like it's going to be like a three-year fight between you
24:18 and the studios and the producer,
24:21 more than a three-year fight to make the best music possible.
24:25 But there are people who make it great,
24:26 you know, like Jonathan Glazer and Mika Levy.
24:31 I don't know if you say Mika Levy or Mika--
24:34 Mika Levy, yeah.
24:34 I think it's Mika Levy.
24:36 Like, they're doing great.
24:37 Johnny Greenwood is doing great with Paul Thomas Anderson.
24:42 So there are some ways of making it good.
24:46 But this is not the type of projects
24:48 that we've been offered to do yet.
24:52 Are there particular projects that you still
24:54 have on your wish list?
24:55 Do you still want to do more remixes?
24:56 Or is that something you're not as interested in these days?
24:59 No.
25:00 We're not really interested in doing remixes.
25:02 No, I mean, we've done a lot.
25:04 And it was really--
25:06 it was like a very experimental play field for us.
25:13 But no, I guess now we'd rather do our own music.
25:18 And yeah, there's this thing about remixes.
25:21 It's either it's less good than the original song,
25:26 so what is it for?
25:29 Or it's better, and it destroys the original song,
25:32 and then it becomes a problem.
25:34 So there's not really a win-win situation in a remix.
25:40 That said, sometimes we hear a remix of a track,
25:45 and we love it.
25:46 But the trade-off is that then we have the original track,
25:51 and we find it corny compared to the remix, which is not good.
25:56 I do feel like there are some songs that
25:57 are almost unremixable.
25:59 It feels like every few years, someone
26:00 will do a remix of Donna Summer, "I Feel Love,"
26:02 and you think, why?
26:03 The original's perfect.
26:04 Why would you touch it?
26:05 Yeah, that's a shame.
26:08 It's a bit like making a film about--
26:11 I don't know-- like a disclosure.
26:15 Right now, I'm going to talk about something I have no idea.
26:19 But to me, it's like making a film about Superman
26:22 for the 18th time.
26:24 And maybe it's good to use this energy and this workforce
26:30 to make something new, rather than--
26:34 have they made a remix of "I Feel Love" recently?
26:36 Yeah, I think there was one three or four years ago.
26:38 There's always a few.
26:40 Some of them are quite good, but they're never better.
26:42 Yeah, there's going to be one.
26:45 Let's ask a couple more questions.
26:46 Where's the weirdest place you've
26:48 heard your music over the years, be that in a weird place
26:53 or on an unlikely film or TV show?
26:57 Well, I have a story, but it's not a weird place at all.
27:02 But once I was at JFK, the airport,
27:07 and I hear music through the small speakers
27:11 they have, very low.
27:13 I'm like, wow, that sounds good.
27:15 I'm going to get next to it to record it,
27:18 because I want to know what it is for later.
27:21 And that was "Genesis," a track from our opening album.
27:25 But I couldn't recognize it until I was really
27:27 close to the speaker.
27:28 And I was like, oh, shit, that's us.
27:31 But from far away, with very low sound, I felt it was quite good.
27:36 But that's like, OK, now I have another story.
27:39 It's my mother.
27:42 One day, she's at the supermarket,
27:44 and she sees a man coming to her.
27:45 I say, hey, what's up?
27:47 And she has no idea who he is.
27:49 She's like, yeah, well, you're good, and you.
27:51 And then they have a chit-chat for one minute.
27:54 And then the guy walks away, and she's thinking,
27:58 I have no idea who the hell was that guy.
28:01 And then he walks, he walks, and once he's
28:03 like 50 meters away or a bit more,
28:06 she then recognizes him as the neighbor.
28:08 And she's always seen him from a certain distance.
28:12 So when he was close, she had no idea where he was.
28:15 And when he was just like a shape, like far away,
28:18 she recognized him.
28:19 And that's the same thing, like out of context.
28:22 That explains why I liked that track,
28:24 and I didn't recognize it.
28:26 It's because it was in a place I was not expecting to hear it.
28:31 Yeah, in this situation.
28:33 And last one, how do you want this album, Hyperdrama,
28:36 to make people feel?
28:37 Yeah, hopefully moved, yeah, physically and emotionally.
28:46 Yeah, to me, the best--
28:49 and it's very personal, because this is
28:51 how I like to listen to music.
28:55 I really love when my first reaction is not completely
29:00 positive, and when there are things that I question
29:03 in the way of making.
29:06 And all the last records I loved,
29:10 there's always something at the beginning when I'm like,
29:13 OK, why did they do that like this?
29:16 And a very mainstream example is the White Stripes, for example.
29:22 And that's not yesterday, but the first time
29:25 you are confronted to a White Stripes record,
29:28 everything sounds so rough, so a bit out of place at times,
29:35 but in a great way.
29:37 And then you listen to it again, and you're like, yeah, OK.
29:39 And then you can't--
29:42 it's part of your life, and you can't escape it anymore.
29:45 And I had the same thing with If Tomorrow.
29:49 When the first time I was listening to his new songs,
29:52 I was really a bit unsettled by the way it sounds,
29:56 the choices and everything.
29:58 And then you get back to it, and actually you
30:00 are like, OK, that's the best sounding thing
30:02 I've heard recently.
30:04 So ideally, the good reaction-- and actually,
30:07 Hyperdrama is full of these moments
30:09 that are meant to be a bit unsettling.
30:12 So the ideal plan was like, first listen,
30:15 you like some part of it, and some part of it,
30:17 you're like, is it like this?
30:20 But then you come back to it, and then
30:21 it becomes the most important record of your life.
30:25 Amazing.
30:26 And maybe there's going to be a couple of people
30:28 that is going to be the case.
30:30 No, but yeah, it's something we like to do,
30:34 but just for the experiment as well,
30:37 like just to make something that is a bit disturbing,
30:43 and probably maybe at time repelling,
30:48 just to make something happen, and to not let the listener get
30:56 too comfortable.
30:59 Yeah, we've used this example quite a lot recently.
31:02 But I don't know if you remember the first time you
31:06 had a coffee or a beer as a kid.
31:10 And the first reaction is like, wow, it's bitter.
31:13 It's awful.
31:15 But somehow, now you can't spend a day
31:17 without having a coffee or a beer.
31:19 It becomes part of your life.
31:21 So it's a good reaction of not being immediately
31:24 seduced by something, but enough that you
31:27 want to get back to it.
31:28 Yeah, and a quiet taste.
31:30 Yeah.
31:31 Thanks so much for your time.
31:32 Thank you.
31:32 It's been a pleasure.
31:33 Thank you.
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