• 7 months ago
Rep. Paul Gosar (R-AZ) leads a House Natural Resources Committee hearing to examine the influence of extreme environmental activists in the Department of Interior.

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Transcript
00:00:00 Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the subcommittee at
00:00:05 any time.
00:00:06 The subcommittee is meeting today to hear the testimony on examining the influence of
00:00:10 extreme environmental activist groups in the Department of Interior.
00:00:14 Under committee rule 4F, any oral opening statements at the hearing are limited to the
00:00:18 chairman and the ranking minority member.
00:00:20 I therefore ask unanimous consent that all other member's statements be made part of
00:00:23 the hearing record.
00:00:24 If they are submitted in accordance with committee rule 3-0.
00:00:30 Without objection, so ordered.
00:00:31 Do you guys have any people waving?
00:00:37 I will now recognize myself for my opening statement.
00:00:44 Good morning everyone and welcome to our witnesses for coming.
00:00:49 Thank you for coming before the committee to discuss this critical issue, examining
00:00:53 the influence of the extreme environmental activist groups in the Department of the Interior.
00:00:57 The committee invited several non-profits including the Pueblo Action Alliance and the
00:01:02 Wilderness Society to join us today.
00:01:04 But unsurprisingly, they would prefer to keep the American public in the dark regarding
00:01:08 their cozy relationship with the Department of the Interior under the Biden administration.
00:01:13 Over the course of the 118th Congress, the Oversight and Investigation Subcommittee has
00:01:17 uncovered a track record of close and potentially improper relationships with radical environmental
00:01:22 activist groups in the Department.
00:01:25 While all presidential administrators have their particular points of view, which is
00:01:29 to be expected, the issue at hand here is twofold.
00:01:33 Number one, at their core, most of these people, groups are fundamentally opposed to the congressionally
00:01:38 authorized missions of the land management agencies that they seek to influence and increasingly
00:01:42 NOAA.
00:01:45 Number two, some of these groups are also influenced by dark money from unfriendly foreign
00:01:49 sources like China.
00:01:51 We now know that China provides funding for many radical environmental groups such as
00:01:55 Code Pink for the purpose of stopping America's natural resources development and weakening
00:02:00 our energy security.
00:02:02 Not only does Code Pink advocate for the end of fossil fuels and domestic mining, but they
00:02:07 are currently leading numerous protests against Israel's response to the brutal terrorist
00:02:12 attack by Hamas on October 7th.
00:02:15 The committee is concerned that radical environmental groups are now affecting critical decisions
00:02:19 and rulemaking at DOI regarding resource development, including the Chaco Canyon withdrawal and
00:02:25 the cancellation of the twin metals mineral releases in the Superior National Forest.
00:02:29 Before joining the Biden administration, Secretary Hallin was very involved with the PAA and
00:02:35 repeatedly advocated for their preservationist policies to withdraw more land in the Chaco
00:02:40 Canyon from natural resource development.
00:02:45 There is evidence that she has maintained her close relationship with PAA while serving
00:02:49 as secretary, in addition to her daughter remaining employed to advocate on this issue.
00:02:54 In 2022, Secretary Hallin satisfied PAA's efforts by issuing a public land order to
00:03:00 officially withdraw over 330,000 acres, nearly one 10-mile radius of federal land surrounding
00:03:06 the Chaco Canyon National Historical Park for 20 years.
00:03:10 In this case, Secretary Hallin undoubtedly should have recused herself to resolve any
00:03:15 potential conflicts of interest.
00:03:18 Another concerning incident involved the twin metals mine in the Superior National Forest
00:03:22 in northeastern Minnesota.
00:03:23 In 2018, the federal government had reinstated the mineral leases for the prospective twin
00:03:28 metals copper, nickel, and cobalt mine project in northeast Minnesota.
00:03:34 Then in 2020, various environmental activist groups, including the Wilderness Society,
00:03:38 sued the Bureau of Land Management, Fish and Wildlife Services, and the Forest Service
00:03:42 over their decision to renew their permits for the twin metals.
00:03:45 Later, a FOIA request revealed that while this litigation was ongoing, then-Deputy Secretary
00:03:52 Tommy Boudreaux and Deputy Chief of Staff Kate Kelly purportedly met with lobbyists
00:03:57 from the Wilderness Society, a lead plaintiff in the case, in an off-the-books meeting.
00:04:03 At the same time, the Wilderness Society apparently coordinated with DOI's lawyers on legal and
00:04:08 policy pathways regarding mining in northeastern Minnesota.
00:04:12 Then in 2022, Secretary Hallin canceled the two decades old mineral leases for twin metals
00:04:17 and withdrew over 225,000 acres of mineral-rich land in the same area for mineral exploration
00:04:24 and development.
00:04:25 The coordination with the Wilderness Society on this issue raises substantial concerns
00:04:29 regarding the undue influence exercised by the environmental non-profits over the Biden
00:04:35 administration.
00:04:36 Unfortunately, these two instances are only a drop in the bucket when considering the
00:04:40 full breadth of the damage done by DOI, working with radical non-profits to stymie domestic
00:04:46 resource development and make U.S. less energy secure.
00:04:49 Tomorrow, Secretary Hallin will come before the committee in a rare appearance to discuss
00:04:54 the Interior's budget request, so I hope she comes prepared to explain these seeming conflicts
00:04:59 of interest and their effect on her decision-making to the American people.
00:05:03 Now per usual, I don't expect my Democratic colleagues to engage in the substance of this
00:05:08 hearing today.
00:05:09 However, regardless of a Republican or Democratic administration, Congress must keep the federal
00:05:15 government in check and working for the American people.
00:05:19 The committee will continue to uphold this vital responsibility.
00:05:23 I will now recognize the ranking member, Ms. Stansbury, for her opening statement.
00:05:27 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:05:29 You know, when I signed up to be the ranking member of this subcommittee, I was genuinely
00:05:34 excited to get to work on issues that matter for the American people, to work on climate
00:05:39 change, water resources issues, protecting our public lands, serving our tribal nations,
00:05:45 all issues that I've spent my entire career working on.
00:05:48 But week after week, I've sat here as this subcommittee and others across our Congress
00:05:53 have become increasingly a stage for political theater.
00:05:57 And I have to say that it is extremely disconcerting, and I hope we can get back to working for
00:06:03 the American people.
00:06:04 And I was especially dismayed after I read the prep materials for this hearing and saw
00:06:08 that it was going to be yet another partisan attack on our public servants at the Department
00:06:15 of the Interior, including on our secretary, who of course is a New Mexican and our nation's
00:06:21 very first indigenous cabinet secretary.
00:06:24 But since this is the direction that the majority has decided to take the committee and they
00:06:28 want to talk about conflicts of interest, I feel that it is incumbent upon us to point
00:06:34 out that the influence of dark money at the Department of Interior has never been more
00:06:39 apparent than it was under the Trump administration when both of its interior secretaries were
00:06:46 embroiled in dozens of scandals and ethical violations.
00:06:51 Of course, none of this is particularly surprising when the tone is set at the top by President
00:06:56 Trump, who has literally spent most of his life involved in pay to play scandals.
00:07:01 In fact, the Oversight and Accountability Committee released a minority report just
00:07:06 a few months ago called the Mazars Report, which includes 156 pages of evidence compiled
00:07:14 while in office, former President Trump and his companies received at least $7.8 million
00:07:22 from at least 20 different foreign governments while they had business in front of the White
00:07:28 House.
00:07:29 And the Saudi government, as we know, also gave more than $2 billion to his son-in-law
00:07:35 after he left office.
00:07:37 So if we want to talk about influence peddling and criminal behavior, let's talk about the
00:07:41 former president and the culture of influence that he brought not only to the White House,
00:07:46 but to the Department of Interior under his tenure.
00:07:48 In fact, when you scratch the surface, what you find is that the Trump Interior Department
00:07:54 offered unprecedented access to oil and gas, mining, and other special interests that resulted
00:08:01 in dozens of investigations and criminal referrals.
00:08:05 It's like a bribery scheme in which a developer organized a quarter million dollars in campaign
00:08:12 donations on the same day that his permit for mega development was announced, thanks
00:08:18 to the Trump Interior Secretary, the secretary that lobbied on behalf of so many extractive
00:08:24 interests that he had to carry a card around listing his conflicts and had to reconfigure
00:08:30 the Ethics Department.
00:08:32 Another Trump secretary who received a criminal referral to DOJ after he used his position
00:08:38 to try to open a private business in his hometown and fire the inspector general the day before
00:08:44 the news broke.
00:08:45 Or a previous Interior Secretary under Bush who was also referred to DOJ for sharing insider
00:08:52 information to Shell Oil, which she then asked to work for.
00:08:56 Or a deputy that leaked documents to extractive industries who were suing the department and
00:09:01 lied to Congress.
00:09:02 And finally, an offshore oil and gas agency, Department of Interior, that was so corrupted
00:09:08 that employees took trips, gifts, and had cocaine-fueled parties with oil and gas executives
00:09:14 and signed off on protocols that ultimately led to the largest oil spill in American history.
00:09:21 This is just the tip of the iceberg.
00:09:23 But what is common across all of these instances is well-documented, well-substantiated investigations
00:09:29 of influence and unethical behavior, all of which took place under Republican administrations.
00:09:36 And yet here we find ourselves today in a hearing where my colleagues are trying to
00:09:40 manufacture a scandal tying Secretary Haaland to environmental groups.
00:09:45 For what?
00:09:46 Doing her job?
00:09:48 Setting aside tribal sacred sites?
00:09:51 Conserving ecosystems?
00:09:53 Protecting public lands?
00:09:55 All things that fall under the mandate of the Department of the Interior?
00:09:59 And ironically, they brought in two witnesses today to spin this story who are affiliated
00:10:04 with conservative organizations funded by dark money donors and engaged in preparing
00:10:09 for another Trump administration.
00:10:12 So let me just say this.
00:10:13 One thing is clear.
00:10:15 The depth, breadth, and persistence of corruption that we saw under the Trump administration
00:10:21 must never be repeated again.
00:10:24 And like other hearings this Congress, it is peculiar that my friends across the aisle
00:10:28 are so focused on these political fantasies while their own president is sitting in a
00:10:32 courtroom today.
00:10:36 And while the Department of Interior was engaged in so many demonstrated legal and ethical
00:10:41 failures, and that is what the Oversight Committee should be focused on.
00:10:46 With that, I yield back.
00:10:47 I thank the gentle lady for a minute there.
00:10:49 I thought you were talking about Burisma and Ukraine.
00:10:53 I'm now going to go to talking and we'll introduce our witnesses.
00:10:57 First we have Mr. Scott Walter, President, Capital Research Center.
00:11:01 Mr. Richard Painter, Professor of Corporate Law, University of Minnesota Law School.
00:11:05 And Mr. Tyler O'Neill, Author.
00:11:08 Let me remind the witnesses that under committee rules, you must limit your statement to five
00:11:11 minutes, but your entire statement will be made part of the hearing record.
00:11:15 To begin your testimony, I forget this all the time, push your hear button and get started.
00:11:22 At four minutes, you'll see the light turn yellow.
00:11:24 It tells you to kind of try to wrap it up and when you see a red light, stop.
00:11:27 I will now recognize Mr. Walter for your five minutes.
00:11:31 Thank you.
00:11:33 Chairman Gosar, Vice Chairman Collins, distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for
00:11:38 the honor of testifying.
00:11:40 I'm President of Capital Research Center where we study radical activists.
00:11:44 I claim no expertise in climate science, environmental policy and the like, but I am experienced in
00:11:49 federal policy making.
00:11:51 That process requires the ability to join an honest debate, to recognize that all policy
00:11:56 choices have tradeoffs and to engage rationally with people you may disagree with.
00:12:02 Unfortunately, today's radicals reject all these prerequisites to good public policy.
00:12:08 That's why Pueblo Action Alliance joined other radical groups in a violent protest at the
00:12:12 Interior Department that led to over 50 arrests and sent at least one police officer to the
00:12:18 hospital.
00:12:19 Yet, Secretary Holland's child who works for the alliance posted photos of this demonstration
00:12:23 to Instagram and called her participation "an honor."
00:12:28 That's why the Pueblo Action Alliance issued a statement on the death of George Floyd with
00:12:32 hysterical language like "The institution of policing in the United States was created
00:12:37 to control, criminalize and brutalize African and indigenous peoples on stolen land.
00:12:42 Modern American," three K's in the spelling, "police descend directly from slave patrols
00:12:48 and settler militias.
00:12:50 Police and armed U.S. state agents are working today as they've always been designed to,
00:12:54 as tools of racist, settler, colonial, capitalist and imperialist violence, hand in hand with
00:12:59 white vigilante terrorists."
00:13:03 That statement was issued in conjunction with the All African People's Revolutionary Party,
00:13:08 which seeks "the total liberation and unification of Africa under scientific socialism."
00:13:14 This extremist group was founded by an African dictator who received the Lenin Peace Prize
00:13:18 from the Soviet Union.
00:13:20 Pueblo Action Alliance is tied to another communist dictatorship through its alliance
00:13:24 with Cuba's Benceramos Brigades.
00:13:26 The alliance's creative strategist glamorizes Cuban tyranny saying he "experienced reverse
00:13:32 culture shock when returning to America from Cuba, a country Freedom House rates 'not free'
00:13:39 because 'Cuba's one-party communist state outlaws political pluralism, bans independent
00:13:45 media, suppresses dissent and severely restricts basic civil liberties.'"
00:13:51 This isn't idealism, it's nihilism.
00:13:54 The utopian nihilism of extremists often ends in violent bloodshed.
00:13:59 It never ends in good policies that sane Americans desire.
00:14:04 So it's shocking the Interior Department not only treats Pueblo Action Alliance as a source
00:14:08 of policy wisdom, but also appears to have made official policy with bias toward the
00:14:13 alliance and provided improper assistance to the alliance.
00:14:17 In one notorious case, Interior ignored the Navajo Nation while crafting a policy that
00:14:23 costs thousands of Navajos millions of dollars, pushing tribe members into greater poverty,
00:14:30 according to the standing committee of the 25th Navajo Nation Council.
00:14:34 This committee's letters to the Interior Department document multiple meetings between the Secretary
00:14:38 and Pueblo Action Alliance officials.
00:14:41 The Secretary has promoted PAA by having its insignia appear in public photographs beginning
00:14:46 her first day in office.
00:14:48 PAA has promoted itself by such means as posting those photographs on its Instagram.
00:14:54 Activists have promoted Secretary Halen's involvement in a film produced by the director
00:14:58 of PAA which demands that oil, gas and mineral leasing outside the Sheiko Culture National
00:15:04 Historical Park be ended, a question on which the Secretary officially ruled in favor of
00:15:10 PAA's demand.
00:15:12 Finally, there are the many ways that the Secretary appears to be influenced by her
00:15:16 adult child, Soma.
00:15:18 No wonder the committee is deeply concerned that PAA may have improperly received non-public
00:15:24 information from the department.
00:15:26 The Wilderness Society is another example of environmental extremism influencing Interior.
00:15:31 I note it refused, as did the Pueblo Alliance, to testify today.
00:15:35 Again, radicals refuse honest debate.
00:15:39 The Wilderness Society's governing council has two leaders from the most notorious source
00:15:43 of foreign dark money in politics today.
00:15:46 Molly McKusick, head of both the Wyss Foundation and its Berger Action Fund dark money group,
00:15:51 and the foreign national billionaire Hans-Jörg Wyss himself.
00:15:55 The Society has worked with high-ranking Interior personnel on issues like the Izembek National
00:16:00 Wildlife Refuge and achieved policy victories.
00:16:04 Other dark money actors powerfully influencing Interior include the Arabella Network, to
00:16:09 which Wyss has given hundreds of millions, and the League of Conservation Voters, whose
00:16:13 extremist founder radicalized Arabella's founder, and who suggested, quote, "Someday childbearing
00:16:20 will be deemed a punishable crime against society unless the parents hold a government
00:16:26 license," close quote.
00:16:28 Clearly, radical environmentalists are exercising considerable sway over the Interior Department.
00:16:34 Americans, especially the poor, deserve to enjoy the benefits of inexpensive energy and
00:16:40 abundant resources.
00:16:41 Please protect them from the radicals.
00:16:44 Thank you.
00:16:45 Thank you, Mr. Walz.
00:16:46 I now recognize Mr. Painter for five minutes.
00:16:52 Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, thank you for inviting me here to testify today.
00:16:58 I'm a law professor in Minnesota, where I've been ever since I was the chief White House
00:17:03 ethics lawyer for President George W. Bush from 2005 to 2007.
00:17:08 I was proud to serve in the Bush administration, where the vast majority of the President's
00:17:12 appointees conducted themselves in accordance with the ethical obligations of federal employees.
00:17:20 Unfortunately, the Interior Department was not our most shining example of ethical compliance.
00:17:29 Federal land is our land.
00:17:31 It belongs to the American people.
00:17:33 Congress holds this land in trust pursuant to the United States Constitution.
00:17:38 Authority is delegated to the Interior Department to manage federal land.
00:17:43 This is over one quarter of the land mass of the United States.
00:17:47 This land is intended for use in the interest of the American people, which includes, but
00:17:53 is not limited to, environmentally sound extraction of minerals, timber, oil, and gas, and other
00:17:59 commercially productive uses.
00:18:03 But the problem is that with this vast amount of power over so much land, the Interior Department
00:18:08 has been a source of corruption for over a century, going back to the Teapot Dome scandal
00:18:14 of the 1920s, all the way through the time when I was the chief White House ethics lawyer
00:18:19 for President Bush, and we had too many scandals in the Interior Department up until today.
00:18:27 The vast majority of this corruption over 100 plus years has involved oil and gas mining
00:18:33 and real estate developers and casino operators, such as Jack Abramoff's clients, and others
00:18:40 seeking access to federal lands on terms favorable to themselves and detrimental to the public
00:18:47 interest.
00:18:49 Not by the means of lobbying the Interior Department in accordance with the laws and
00:18:53 the First Amendment right of every American to petition the government for redress of
00:18:58 grievances, but illegally.
00:19:01 And that is why we've had so many scandals over a century.
00:19:06 Now it is conceivable that environmental groups also will seek access to the Interior Department
00:19:11 through improper and illegal means.
00:19:14 And I want to emphasize it's critically important that the same rules apply to everybody, whether
00:19:19 it's industry or an environmental group.
00:19:23 Now that being said, I would have to say that worrying about environmental groups taking
00:19:27 over the Interior Department would be somewhat analogous to worrying about pacifists taking
00:19:31 over the Department of Defense.
00:19:33 Perhaps it will happen someday.
00:19:35 But that's not where we are now.
00:19:37 We've had over a century of corruption in the Interior Department under presidents of
00:19:42 Republican and Democratic administrations.
00:19:45 This is not a partisan issue.
00:19:47 We've had corruption in the Interior Department from industry groups that want unfair access
00:19:52 to the Department and want to use federal lands for their enrichment at the expense
00:19:57 of the American people.
00:19:59 I want to just discuss briefly the impact of what happens in the Interior Department on
00:20:04 the people in the state of Minnesota.
00:20:06 Former Republican Governor Arne Carlson and I for the past five years have been fighting
00:20:11 efforts by foreign billionaires to build sulfide mines in the state of Minnesota.
00:20:17 We are famous for iron mining in Minnesota.
00:20:19 We have the iron range.
00:20:22 That's not the sulfide mining range.
00:20:24 And if we're going to have sulfide mining in Minnesota with all its environmental complexities,
00:20:29 we certainly don't need these companies run by foreign billionaires coming into our state,
00:20:34 polluting our water, and then hightailing on out of there because they have influence
00:20:38 in Washington.
00:20:39 One of these companies, Glencore, was founded by Mark Rich, a tax cheat pardoned by President
00:20:45 Clinton.
00:20:47 And Glencore opened up a company called PolyMet that would run a mine in Minnesota and arranged
00:20:53 a land swap deal with the Interior Department to get federal land for the purpose of sulfide
00:20:59 mining.
00:21:00 Glencore, the parent company, is close to Russian oligarchs.
00:21:04 The CEO of Glencore received the Medal of Freedom from Vladimir Putin.
00:21:09 Those are not the people we want engaged in sulfide mining in northern Minnesota.
00:21:14 And the same for another company run by a Chilean billionaire called Antofagasta.
00:21:20 They want to open a mine right in the boundary waters.
00:21:22 They got a lease from the Interior Department.
00:21:26 Over many decades they've had this lease.
00:21:29 What happens is soon as President Trump was elected, miraculously, we find that the billionaire
00:21:35 owner of this company, this foreign billionaire, is leasing a house to Jared and Ivanka Trump.
00:21:43 Now that's perfectly legal to be a landlord for the incoming administration.
00:21:48 I don't know what the rent terms were on that lease, but I will assure you one thing, the
00:21:52 people of Minnesota do not want that sulfide mine in the boundary waters, and we expect
00:21:57 the Interior Department to stand up for us.
00:22:01 I thank the gentleman.
00:22:02 I now recognize Mr. O'Neill for his five minutes.
00:22:07 Chairman Gosar, Ranking Member Stansbury, extreme environmental groups have broad sway
00:22:13 in the Interior Department.
00:22:15 In my remarks, I plan to show how these groups affect policy, how their former staff now
00:22:20 help lead Interior, and how a leftist group that demonizes conservatives is influencing
00:22:26 Interior's efforts to be more inclusive.
00:22:29 In July 2023, the Sierra Club and its allies asked an agency at Interior to crack down
00:22:35 on oil and gas in the Gulf of Mexico.
00:22:38 Two months later, Interior released a five-year plan that included the smallest number of
00:22:44 oil and gas lease sales in the Gulf in history.
00:22:47 We know because Secretary Haaland bragged about it.
00:22:51 This plan is currently facing a lawsuit because America's largest fossil fuel industry association
00:22:56 says the plan will harm American consumers and threaten our energy security.
00:23:03 Earlier this very month, Interior announced its five-year plan for wind energy.
00:23:08 While it restricts oil and gas to three lease sales, it plans for 12 offshore wind auctions.
00:23:14 The Sierra Club celebrated the move and pledged to continue collaborating with the Biden administration.
00:23:22 Oil is cheaper and more reliable than wind energy, and America has the best track record
00:23:27 of generating the least emissions while drilling for oil.
00:23:31 Wind also requires strip mining for rare earth minerals, leaving toxic byproducts.
00:23:36 Yet Interior is promoting wind energy.
00:23:39 The left's dark money network helps explain why.
00:23:43 While Democrats were obsessed with the Koch brothers, a New York Times analysis shows
00:23:48 that the left's dark money network spent more than comparable conservative groups.
00:23:53 The left-wing Arabella Advisors and the Tides Foundation set up nonprofits to allow donors
00:23:59 to pour money into specific projects without disclosing what the money does.
00:24:05 The Arabella Network's New Venture Fund funded and launched Governing for Impact, for example.
00:24:10 Governing for Impact bragged that the Biden administration acted on more than 20 of its
00:24:15 recommendations.
00:24:17 The Center for American Progress, which advocates for environmental justice, received more than
00:24:22 $3 million from the Arabella Network.
00:24:25 Meanwhile, the Department of the Interior is directing $2 billion in funds through the
00:24:30 so-called Inflation Reduction Act.
00:24:33 Who determines where these funds go?
00:24:35 Center for American Progress founder, John Podesta.
00:24:39 Meanwhile, the National Wildlife Federation, an environmentalist group that promoted Al
00:24:44 Gore's film An Inconvenient Truth, received nearly $1 million via Arabella nonprofits.
00:24:51 NWF's former employees now hold positions of power at Interior.
00:24:56 Four-year NWF staffer, Tracy Stone Manning, is now the director at the Bureau of Land
00:25:01 Management.
00:25:02 She notoriously sent a threatening letter on behalf of eco-terrorists who spiked trees
00:25:07 to cause physical harm to loggers.
00:25:10 She later says she does not condone tree spiking or terrorism of any kind.
00:25:15 Laura Danielle Davis, who worked at Interior under Obama before joining the NWF for three
00:25:19 years, is now the second in command at Interior.
00:25:23 She's only in an acting role, however, because the Senate would not confirm her.
00:25:28 Senator Joe Manchin opposed her for valuing the left's radical climate agenda, his words,
00:25:33 ahead of Alaska's energy needs.
00:25:36 The National Wildlife Federation also takes credit for Climate Smart Conservation, a project
00:25:41 it claims it developed with its federal agency partners, such as the National Park Service.
00:25:46 Of course, these ties to the Interior shouldn't come as a surprise.
00:25:50 A 2009 Inspector General report found that staff at the Bureau of Land Management had
00:25:55 worked so closely with NWF that they may have violated the law.
00:25:59 NWF staff were writing and editing official BLM materials.
00:26:04 Finally, Interior recently convened a committee to reevaluate place names to remove derogatory
00:26:10 terms.
00:26:12 That seems noble, but Secretary Haaland named a divisive figure to the committee.
00:26:17 Kimberly A. Probelus had previously worked with the Southern Poverty Law Center to help
00:26:22 with its project shaming officials into removing public symbols of the Confederacy.
00:26:27 In a meeting of the Interior Committee, she noted this previous work, expressing her gratitude
00:26:32 for the chance to continue to work toward racial and social justice with Interior.
00:26:38 The SPLC, which has lobbied Interior on historical designations, praised Haaland for including
00:26:44 Probelus, suggesting the committee should use SPLC resources on hate.
00:26:50 No one should have to visit a national park whose name is rooted in legacies of hate and
00:26:55 white supremacy, SPLC's Leisha Brooks said.
00:26:59 Yet the SPLC is far from a reliable arbiter of hate.
00:27:02 It is notorious for putting mainstream conservative and Christian groups on a hate map with KKK
00:27:08 chapters, scaring donors into ponying up cash.
00:27:12 If Interior wants to avoid being derogatory, it shouldn't rely on the SPLC.
00:27:17 In short, the left's dark money network is propping up radical environmentalist groups
00:27:22 that help steer policy at Interior.
00:27:25 Thank you.
00:27:26 Thank you, gentlemen.
00:27:27 I now want to recognize Ms. Julia Faye Bernal.
00:27:29 Oh, I forgot, she's not here.
00:27:33 How about Mr. Jamie Williams?
00:27:36 They're not here either.
00:27:37 I find it very, very interesting that that comes about.
00:27:40 We're now going to go to members' questions.
00:27:42 The gentleman from Montana is recognized for his five minutes.
00:27:46 Thank you very much, Congressman Gosar, and I appreciate you convening this hearing today.
00:27:50 Over the past three years, we've seen, observed a disturbing trend with this administration,
00:27:56 an ever-growing dependence on extremist organizations to shape the policy decisions.
00:28:02 The Biden administration appears to be governed by a fear of upsetting its most progressive
00:28:07 faction.
00:28:08 The policies enacted by this administration show the significant influence of these extremist
00:28:14 groups.
00:28:15 This undue influence leads the administration to prioritize appeasing these destructive
00:28:19 groups, especially considering the coming elections.
00:28:23 One area where this external pressure is directly felt is in our energy and public land sectors.
00:28:30 We've recently witnessed an attempt by the administration to pursue the demands of these
00:28:34 groups by advocating for the commoditization of our public land and resources, disregarding
00:28:40 the needs of local communities and businesses reliant on these lands for their livelihoods
00:28:46 and in violation of the current statute.
00:28:50 While this scheme was thwarted, the residual effects linger, exemplified by the recently
00:28:58 implemented conservation and landscape health rule, which flagrantly violates the Taylor
00:29:03 Grazing Act and the attempts to breach the Lower Snake River dams.
00:29:09 Mr. O'Neill, I really appreciate your comments and your insight as to what's been taking
00:29:16 place.
00:29:17 I acknowledge that the U.S. produces some of the cleanest oil and gas globally, using
00:29:21 the most environmentally sound practices.
00:29:25 Despite this, Secretary Haaland and the current administration persist in bragging about the
00:29:30 reduction in lease sales.
00:29:33 Given this administration's purported focus on climate issues, how do you explain their
00:29:37 desire to increase our dependence on comparatively dirtier foreign sources of oil and gas, which
00:29:45 is produced with little or no care for the environment?
00:29:49 Yeah, I think it is directly contrary.
00:29:53 The more that we outsource the drilling of oil and gas, the worse it is for the global
00:29:58 environment.
00:29:59 Those who really care about climate change on a global level should be concerned about
00:30:03 this.
00:30:04 Mr. Walter, when we talk about the far-left environmental activism, there are two individual
00:30:09 names that frequently come up.
00:30:13 George Soros and Hans-Jorg Wies.
00:30:17 Mr. Walter, can you talk about these two men and why they have taken an interest in the
00:30:22 policy area?
00:30:24 Well, Mr. Wies probably deserves more attention because he's far less well-known.
00:30:30 He has given roughly half a billion dollars as a foreign national to American non-profits
00:30:37 that engage in politics and public policy debate, including C4s that give money to super
00:30:42 PACs, which he, of course, is not allowed to do.
00:30:45 If you go to the FEC database, you can also see that he made direct political contributions
00:30:51 to multiple members of the Democratic Party in Congress.
00:30:55 Unfortunately, that wasn't discovered until the statute of limitations had expired.
00:31:00 So he continues to give hundreds of millions of dollars to the Arabella Network.
00:31:06 In fact, he was probably the original sugar daddy when the Arabella Network was just getting
00:31:10 started in the 2000s.
00:31:13 So he's also been the source of a, he's had an FEC complaint lodged against him and his
00:31:19 Arabella compatriots.
00:31:22 The FEC, unfortunately, did nothing about it as it usually does, but the general counsel
00:31:26 at the FEC urged that both Arabella and he be sanctioned.
00:31:32 So Mr. Walter, do you have any insights on their end goals when influencing public policy,
00:31:38 but most specifically in the natural resource space?
00:31:42 Well, Arabella has said that roughly one-third of its work in its network is in the environmental
00:31:48 space and Mr. Viest especially has done that.
00:31:51 As I said, he's on the board, as is his dark money group's president of the Wilderness
00:31:56 Society.
00:31:57 Thank you very much.
00:31:59 Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
00:32:00 I would yield back the balance of my time and wait for the second round.
00:32:03 I think the gentleman, the gentlelady from New Mexico is recognized for her five minutes.
00:32:08 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:32:16 Mr. Painter, in July 2021, before the cancellation of the Twin Metals leases, senior DOI officials
00:32:23 met off the books with the Wilderness Society, one of the lead plaintiffs in the lawsuit
00:32:27 against the project, and they concealed the purpose of the meeting.
00:32:31 Later, Interior canceled the leases despite ongoing litigation.
00:32:35 Last year, you testified before the Senate Budget Committee and in written testimony
00:32:40 criticized the fossil fuel industry for having backdoor access to federal governments, stating
00:32:47 fossil fuel companies also take advantage of the revolving door in and out of government.
00:32:53 There they are allowed to participate in regulatory matters that affect their former employer's
00:32:59 industry.
00:33:00 With your condemnation of the fossil fuel industry allegedly using backroom channels
00:33:06 of political appointments and relationships to influence policy, do you similarly condemn
00:33:12 the Wilderness Society for using backroom tactics to lobby against the Twin Metals mining
00:33:18 project?
00:33:21 My understanding of the law is that these backroom conversations with previous employers
00:33:29 have been allowed for a long time with respect to regulatory matters.
00:33:33 The ethics pledge constrains some of that, not enough.
00:33:38 We need to see a tightening up of the ethics rules.
00:33:42 This was a serious problem under the Bush administration.
00:33:45 It was a serious problem under the Clinton, the Reagan administration.
00:33:49 It is a problem today.
00:33:51 So that means you are similarly condemning the Wilderness?
00:33:54 I will condemn the legal, the legal communications.
00:33:59 This is legal unless, and I will tell you where it is illegal.
00:34:02 It is illegal when there is a communication between a federal official and their former
00:34:08 employer about a particular party matter.
00:34:12 Let me go to that, please.
00:34:14 Do you believe that non-profits like the Wilderness Society should be allowed to guide natural
00:34:18 resource policy instead of the professionals at the Bureau of Land Management?
00:34:23 I don't understand your question.
00:34:25 Should they be giving their input?
00:34:27 Yes, they should.
00:34:28 They should be doing it legally.
00:34:30 I believe the rules need to be tightened up for the Wilderness Society as well as for
00:34:34 the oil and gas industry.
00:34:35 We've had too much of this revolving door access to the Interior Department.
00:34:39 Do you believe it's a more appropriate working relationship between non-profits and the federal
00:34:44 government than we have observed here?
00:34:46 You think there's more?
00:34:48 I believe that the federal government needs to tighten up their ethics rules so we do
00:34:52 not have federal officials discussing regulations with their previous employer.
00:34:57 Whether the previous employer is the oil and gas industry or the Wilderness Society, there's
00:35:02 been way too much of that.
00:35:03 We need tighter regulations.
00:35:05 That's the point I made in front of the United States Senate last year.
00:35:07 On June 9th, 2019, you tweeted, "Sulfide mining companies controlled by foreign billionaires
00:35:14 descend on the Great Lakes at real Donald Trump and his allies, and Minnesota's most
00:35:18 corrupt DFL politicians have shown them the way.
00:35:22 Vote for clean water.
00:35:23 Vote them out.
00:35:24 With your stated opposition to foreign billionaires influencing our natural resources policy,
00:35:30 will you condemn all initiatives and projects that are funded by the Hansjörg Weiss, a
00:35:36 foreign national who funds environmental groups such as the League of Conservation Voters
00:35:41 Action Fund as being influenced by foreign billionaires?"
00:35:45 I don't like foreign billionaires involved in American non-profits at all.
00:35:49 I have condemned the influence of American universities from Qatar and other countries
00:35:54 that seek to drive our universities toward anti-Semitism.
00:35:58 This is a serious problem.
00:35:59 I do condemn it.
00:36:01 But it is your job in Congress to take action to pass laws rather than play partisan games
00:36:06 attacking the other party and simply trying to win an election and then two more years
00:36:11 of the same.
00:36:12 I'm running out of precious time.
00:36:13 Mr. O'Neill, how do the goals of our foreign adversaries align with the goals of radical
00:36:18 environmental non-profits regarding natural resources and environmental policy?
00:36:23 Well, there's serious concern about as the United States moves away from focusing on
00:36:30 drilling oil and gas that other companies, other countries, specifically Russia, will
00:36:36 be able to influence more of the market by producing their own oil and gas.
00:36:42 This is a national security concern as well as an economic concern from the context of
00:36:48 --
00:36:49 Thank you.
00:36:50 You know, Mr. Chairman, I was just on the coast last week, Louisiana.
00:36:53 We were out on an oil platform.
00:36:54 The Gulf of Mexico can produce 15% of this nation's energy right now today.
00:37:01 It also, they do it 80% more efficient than our adversaries across the world do it in
00:37:06 the Middle East.
00:37:07 We have an America Last policy.
00:37:09 You're exactly right, Mr. O'Neill.
00:37:11 America Last policy.
00:37:12 And we have got three leases that are supposed to be going off annual here.
00:37:17 We didn't get them last year.
00:37:19 They have sat right over there and that witness said they weren't going to do any this year
00:37:22 or any next year.
00:37:24 And on top of that, LNG, you're exactly right.
00:37:26 We have an LNG company down there right now on the coast of Louisiana that is almost ready
00:37:32 to export LNG, but they can't get the permits finished from this administration.
00:37:36 Why?
00:37:38 Because they would rather us buy our gas and oil from our adversaries who are out there
00:37:42 funding people that want to kill us.
00:37:44 And we also have Europe over there that is going to be forced to buy LNG from Russia
00:37:49 because we won't fund or at least permit private companies in this country to export LNG.
00:37:55 And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
00:37:57 I thank the gentleman.
00:37:58 The gentlelady now from New Mexico is recognized for her five minutes.
00:38:02 All right.
00:38:03 Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:38:04 And I just want to clarify a few things.
00:38:07 And Mr. Walter, I actually really appreciate the comment you made at the beginning of your
00:38:11 testimony about having an honest conversation with differing opinions.
00:38:15 That is exactly what public discourse needs to be.
00:38:18 So I very much appreciate that.
00:38:20 But I also think it's important to be clear on what perspectives people are representing
00:38:25 when they are in front of us in the public discourse.
00:38:28 So Mr. O'Neill, I do appreciate you being here today and I respect that you are bringing
00:38:34 your perspective on these issues.
00:38:36 I know in your opening statement that you submitted to the committee that you stated
00:38:40 you're here in your personal capacity, which I appreciate.
00:38:43 But I just want to clarify, you are employed by The Daily Signal, correct?
00:38:48 I am, correct.
00:38:49 And The Daily Signal is a publication of the Heritage Foundation, correct?
00:38:53 Yes.
00:38:54 And that's why your bio appears on the Heritage Foundation.
00:38:58 And I just want to be clear, the Heritage Foundation is a conservative think tank that
00:39:02 many of us know, and among other things, it supports both 501(c)(3) and (c)(4) activities,
00:39:09 including engaging and influencing both policy and politics.
00:39:13 It gives donations to conservative candidates like Donald Trump.
00:39:17 And on the (c)(3) side, it's currently engaged in an effort called Project 2025, which is
00:39:24 laying the groundwork for a White House more friendly to the right.
00:39:27 That's actually what it says on the website.
00:39:30 Now Mr. Walter, you're here in your capacity working for an organization called the Capital
00:39:36 Research Center, which was founded also by a former senior vice president for the Heritage
00:39:42 Foundation.
00:39:43 And I find it ironic that our two majority witnesses are both here and affiliated with
00:39:50 these conservative organizations that are, of course, funded by many different sources,
00:39:55 but among the donors include the Koch brothers, the Bradleys, the Mercer family, and a donor-advised
00:40:02 fund called the Donors Trust, which is bankrolled largely by the Koch brothers and the Searle
00:40:07 Foundation, which, among other things, has funded work to weaken child labor laws, gut
00:40:12 voting rights across the country, to try to gut affirmative action policies, and to push
00:40:18 climate denialism, and also help to prepare for a Trump administration and a second term.
00:40:25 So while I do appreciate that we have different points of view represented here in front of
00:40:31 the committee today, I think it's bizarre to talk about the influence of dark money
00:40:36 on policy without identifying that we actually have two great examples here in front of us
00:40:41 today.
00:40:42 So Mr. Painter, we appreciate you traveling from Minnesota to come be with us today and
00:40:47 your advocacy on behalf of your community.
00:40:50 Your former Bush administration official, thank you for your service, especially around
00:40:54 ethics issues.
00:40:56 And you mentioned in your testimony that you came to the White House during the height
00:41:01 of the Jack Abramoff scandal, during which Mr. Abramoff defrauded American Indian tribes
00:41:07 of millions of dollars and was involved in an influence-peddling scheme at the Department
00:41:12 of Interior.
00:41:13 I noted during your testimony that you said that the Department of Interior was certainly
00:41:18 not one of your shining examples of ethical behavior during your tenure in the White House.
00:41:24 So I just want to kind of go back over the record a little bit.
00:41:27 It's true that during that time, the then Secretary Gail Norton was investigated for
00:41:34 sharing insider information with Shell Oil, and that matter was referred to the Department
00:41:39 of Justice, correct?
00:41:41 I believe so.
00:41:43 No charges were filed, yes.
00:41:45 And it was also during that time that the Minerals Management Service, which was what
00:41:50 BOEM was, which manages offshore oil and gas drilling, was found to have many, many ethics
00:41:56 violations.
00:41:57 And in fact, employees at the time were steering contracts, taking thousands of dollars in
00:42:02 gifts.
00:42:03 They were allowing royalty underpayments by oil companies and essentially engaged in
00:42:11 a culture of giveaways and unethical behavior, which ultimately led to a complete reorganization
00:42:19 of the Mineral Management Organization, correct?
00:42:23 This is true.
00:42:24 I read the Inspector General's report, and it cost millions of dollars to conduct that
00:42:29 investigation.
00:42:31 And unfortunately, the whole area there was a disaster zone.
00:42:36 Drug use, sex with oil company executives.
00:42:39 My favorite lie in the report being that a sexual relationship of a federal employee
00:42:43 with an oil company official is by definition not an arm's length relationship.
00:42:48 All right.
00:42:50 So how do we stop this?
00:42:52 We've seen the same kinds of abuses during the Trump administration.
00:42:56 What should this committee and what should Congress be doing to stop this kind of unethical
00:43:00 behavior?
00:43:01 We need to tighten up the ethics rules with respect to interaction with previous employers,
00:43:07 whether those previous employers are in the oil and gas industry or in environmental groups,
00:43:12 even though the vast majority of the corruption has been from the industry side.
00:43:16 Previous employers have far more influence on federal agency than other people, and that
00:43:24 should be prohibited across the board in the federal government.
00:43:26 But the impact of previous employers influencing the Interior Department has been egregious.
00:43:33 And we need to cut back on gifts and all the shindigs, the free flights, the people flying
00:43:40 on these airplanes, private jets, and then saying, well, I just flew on an empty seat.
00:43:44 It was an empty seat, so I didn't get any gift from the oil company.
00:43:48 I had to have that argument over and over again in the Bush White House.
00:43:53 We need to cut out this nonsense where the Interior Department and other federal officials
00:43:58 are hobnobbing with outside special interests.
00:44:02 Thank you very much, sir.
00:44:03 Appreciate it.
00:44:04 Yield back.
00:44:05 I thank the gentlelady.
00:44:06 Mr. Painter, do you believe that all NGOs should have to disclose who donates to them
00:44:11 if they take federal dollars?
00:44:14 Well, I certainly think the foreign donors need to be disclosed.
00:44:19 Why wouldn't we do it all across the board?
00:44:21 I mean, because that shows on-- you brought up the oil companies.
00:44:24 It definitely shows us who's playing the game here.
00:44:28 The problem, if you start to require all nonprofits to disclose their donors, you're going to
00:44:34 run into some serious opposition from particularly conservative groups.
00:44:38 And indeed, First Amendment issues have been litigated in front of the United States Supreme
00:44:42 Court.
00:44:43 But I do believe that foreign donors can be required to be disclosed.
00:44:47 I have pushed very aggressively to require the disclosure of foreign donors to American
00:44:51 universities where I believe they're doing a great deal of damage.
00:44:54 And we can require that in other sectors as well.
00:44:57 But across the board, disclosure of all donors to all NGOs requiring that type of disclosure
00:45:03 does run into First Amendment issues.
00:45:05 And you're going to find a lot of the conservative groups are going to be most concerned about
00:45:08 that.
00:45:09 I'm one of those conservatives.
00:45:10 So I guess my question here is then is, how do you get to those if you get a foreign donor
00:45:14 that runs their money through an NGO?
00:45:19 This is a serious problem.
00:45:20 We need to think about the balance between the First Amendment right to petition the
00:45:25 government for redress of grievances and the need to disclose funding sources.
00:45:30 I'm just saying it's a complex issue.
00:45:33 And the minute we talk about requiring disclosure of donors, we're going to get into a lot of
00:45:39 arguments, particularly with the nonprofits on the conservative side.
00:45:44 And I understand their concerns under the First Amendment.
00:45:47 But I believe that Congress needs to look seriously at the need for more disclosure
00:45:52 of foreign funding sources.
00:45:54 I have called once again on the Department of Education to require our universities to
00:46:00 disclose the money they're getting from Qatar and all sorts of places all over the world,
00:46:05 China.
00:46:06 A lot of those existing regulations aren't even being complied with.
00:46:09 Now, I know that's not within the jurisdiction of this committee.
00:46:12 But I'm simply saying this is a difficult issue because if you expand disclosure requirements,
00:46:19 you run into First Amendment arguments.
00:46:21 I agree with you.
00:46:22 But my question to you is they're doing an elective procedure.
00:46:25 So they're taking money from the federal government.
00:46:27 So that is an elective aspect.
00:46:28 They can choose not to take that money from the federal government and they'd still have
00:46:31 to disclose.
00:46:32 Would they not?
00:46:33 I believe you can condition federal money on disclosure of foreign funding sources.
00:46:39 And that's what we've been doing with the universities.
00:46:42 The Department of Education would enforce their regulations with respect to disclosure.
00:46:47 If an organization does not receive federal dollars, we can argue it should still require
00:46:52 disclosure because there's a tax exempt status and there's a subsidy from the American people
00:46:57 through the 501(c)(3) status.
00:46:59 But once again, you're going to run into very challenging First Amendment issues as you
00:47:03 debate that.
00:47:04 And a lot of the opposition to more disclosure is going to come from the more conservative
00:47:08 side of the political spectrum.
00:47:09 Well, just the fact that we're having this dialogue tells me all I need to know in regards
00:47:13 to that we have to have that conversation because that is a fine, fine line.
00:47:18 So I guess my other question to you is, now, do you understand Minnesota, the Northeast
00:47:24 Twin Meadows area?
00:47:26 When you look back at that situation, do you think that the forefathers that actually did
00:47:30 this buffer area weren't thinking outside the box?
00:47:36 Which provision are you--
00:47:37 I'm talking about when they established a buffer area within the Superior National Forest.
00:47:41 Yes.
00:47:42 That's different than anywhere else at the time for a reason to make sure that there
00:47:47 was no contamination in groundwater or whatever.
00:47:50 Are you not familiar with that?
00:47:52 I am.
00:47:53 And it makes a lot of sense.
00:47:54 It does.
00:47:55 It makes tons of sense.
00:47:57 And particularly when you take into advantage the point of what's going on with the new
00:48:00 technology for smeltering, extracting these minerals.
00:48:04 Much more efficient, a lot less water, recoverable, and a lot less pollution.
00:48:09 So I mean, I think you might want to retake a look at that.
00:48:12 Now, are you familiar why we have foreign investors in our mining?
00:48:16 Do you understand that?
00:48:17 I am well aware of why Glencore wants to mine in northern Minnesota, just like they've been
00:48:23 mining all over the world.
00:48:24 Well, here's the problem--
00:48:25 Glencore has been corrupting governments all over the world, and we're not going to let
00:48:28 them do it in Minnesota.
00:48:29 Well, here's the deal.
00:48:30 Part of our problem is we've eliminated all the American minings.
00:48:33 Because you can't have your sole holdings in America because it takes so long for permitting
00:48:39 processes to go forward.
00:48:41 That's our big crux here.
00:48:42 Now, are you familiar with Resolution Copper?
00:48:45 Yes, but I don't--
00:48:48 Your point is that the permit is going to be the same, whether it's an American or a
00:48:53 foreign agent.
00:48:55 And I have indeed said that we need to get these foreign mining companies out of Minnesota.
00:49:00 They're not honest.
00:49:01 They're not being honest with the Minnesota government.
00:49:03 They're not being honest with the Department of the Interior.
00:49:05 This is the problem we have.
00:49:07 We have dishonest people who want to get in the mining business.
00:49:10 I will tell you, I'm recapturing my time here.
00:49:12 I disagree.
00:49:13 I agree there's some bad actors.
00:49:15 But you know, one of the things that I've done with Resolution Copper, I have been intense
00:49:18 about it, saying, listen, I want nothing.
00:49:21 Nobody gets anything out of this.
00:49:23 But you show the people what you're going to give.
00:49:25 So if you're giving water to them beforehand, you want to show them water you can drink
00:49:29 out afterwards and show them all along the studies.
00:49:35 So the problem for them is these American miners don't have the ability to hold on to
00:49:39 these vast leases to wait 20-some years.
00:49:43 These multinationals actually can mine in Australia, can mine in Canada.
00:49:50 But when it comes to the United States, it takes-- well, Resolution Copper hasn't produced
00:49:53 an ounce of copper.
00:49:55 And it's been now almost 25, 30 years.
00:49:59 So there's got to be an impasse here where we have to do something.
00:50:02 I just say we have plenty of billionaires in America who can take care of responsible
00:50:07 mining.
00:50:08 We don't need Glenn Corr coming in here and then cutting deals with Vladimir Putin and
00:50:12 getting the Medal of Friendship from Vladimir Putin.
00:50:15 We're not going to mine northern Minnesota, tear apart our boundary waters so we could
00:50:18 provide copper and nickel for the Russians.
00:50:21 Well, we'll have some more conversation.
00:50:24 So we're going to go to our round two.
00:50:26 I recognize the gentleman from Montana for his round two questions.
00:50:30 Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
00:50:33 I find it interesting that we have all these conversations about who the witnesses are
00:50:39 and the organizations that they represent and/or work for.
00:50:44 One thing I'm glad to see is at least they're all domestic.
00:50:47 At least I know that these organizations have the best interests of America as their main
00:50:53 mission and goal.
00:50:54 Whereas the other groups that are funding a lot of the opposition to keep us from developing
00:51:00 our natural resources are not domestic.
00:51:03 They do not have our best interests at heart.
00:51:06 And that is where the big conflict begins.
00:51:10 The other thing that I find very interesting as we talk about making sure that the public
00:51:16 lands are not only preserved and protected, but that they are utilized.
00:51:21 And when they are utilized, to make sure that a fair amount of that revenue that is generated
00:51:27 because of the development of whatever resources they are, that it actually goes back to benefit
00:51:34 the taxpayers across this country.
00:51:36 Meanwhile, within the last 30 days, I watched this committee lease a piece of public land,
00:51:45 federal public land, park land, that RFK Stadium currently sits on, to Washington, D.C. for
00:51:55 $1.
00:51:57 And they are going to be able to have that completely developed, 160 acres, right here
00:52:04 in Washington, D.C., and collect all of the revenue that it generates without having to
00:52:11 pay a penny of it.
00:52:13 Except, of course, that $1 in their lease agreement.
00:52:18 The rest of the revenue will be retained by Washington, D.C.
00:52:23 So as we say in Montana, it just depends on whose ox is getting gored before they make
00:52:29 decisions about where the priority of revenue and the maintenance of properties comes from.
00:52:36 It goes to Mr. Walter.
00:52:40 In January of 2022, the Bureau of Land Management announced a proposed rule to allow for the
00:52:45 withdrawal of land within a 10-mile radius from mineral development within the Chaco
00:52:51 Culture Natural Historical Park.
00:52:54 Secretary Haaland has long advocated for withdrawing the land from the historical park for mineral
00:53:00 use.
00:53:01 Her family, including her adult child, also continue to do so, including going so far
00:53:08 as to make a documentary about the need for this decision, which is screened at the Capitol
00:53:15 Visitor Center.
00:53:17 Despite DOI's own ethics office determination that this could constitute a conflict of interest,
00:53:23 Secretary Haaland reportedly stated that no reasonable person would question her impartiality.
00:53:30 So Mr. Walter, my question to you is, do you believe this is a reasonable person that this
00:53:35 might constitute a conflict of interest for the Secretary?
00:53:38 Congressman, I don't think that passes the laugh test, no.
00:53:43 How do you think a conflict of interest like this by Secretary should be handled in this
00:53:48 situation?
00:53:49 Well, all of the proper ethics requirements, which my colleague here, Mr. Painter, has
00:53:57 discussed, need to be respected.
00:54:00 And of course, in this case, one of the problems was that she got to be a judge in her own
00:54:04 cause, right?
00:54:06 She was the one who was given the decision to say whether what she was doing was fine.
00:54:09 And again, ordinary Americans would not understand that as true ethical decision making.
00:54:15 Mr. Painter, you've been pretty outspoken against some of the things that the Republicans
00:54:20 have been doing.
00:54:21 Does this pass your smell test?
00:54:25 I don't believe this is a partisan issue.
00:54:27 If the ethics lawyer gives advice, I'd expect it to be followed.
00:54:31 I'm a former government ethics lawyer, and it's not up for the department head to decide
00:54:36 whether the department head is biased or not or should recuse.
00:54:42 If the ethics lawyer says you should recuse, you recuse.
00:54:44 I don't care if you're a Democrat, a Republican, or an Independent.
00:54:48 Mr. Walter, can you tell us about the Pueblo Action Alliance?
00:54:53 Well, as I tried to outline in my testimony, it's hard to find anybody who would be more
00:55:02 perfectly fitting the description of radical and extremist.
00:55:07 And again, so radical and extreme that they're willing to ally themselves with communist
00:55:13 dictatorships and the like.
00:55:15 It's off the charts.
00:55:16 Mr. Walter, I'm getting ready to run out of time here.
00:55:18 Has Secretary Haaland's family been involved in that organization, and did the secretary
00:55:22 herself have any role in its creation?
00:55:26 I'm not certain about the role in the creation, but her adult child is one of its leaders.
00:55:31 And in my written testimony especially, I documented all these connections.
00:55:36 Thank you very much, Mr. Walter.
00:55:37 Mr. Chair, I yield back.
00:55:38 I thank the gentleman from Montana.
00:55:39 The gentlelady from New Mexico is recognized for her five minutes.
00:55:42 All right.
00:55:43 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:55:44 Well, I just want to make sure that folks out there understand that the matter that
00:55:48 was just brought forward about potential conflicts of interest was actually an inquiry that was
00:55:54 sent by the majority to the solicitor's office, which houses the ethics lawyer for the Department
00:56:01 of Interior, which is independent of the administration.
00:56:04 And there are two responses here from the Department of the Interior, one from August
00:56:09 9th, 2023, and one from February 2024, which provides the ethics lawyer's findings and
00:56:16 found that there is no conflict of interest.
00:56:19 So I appreciate, Mr. Painter, your comments about following what the ethics lawyers actually
00:56:24 say.
00:56:25 Secondly, I want to talk for a moment about Chaco Canyon.
00:56:28 Chaco Canyon is a sacred site.
00:56:30 There are dozens of tribes in New Mexico who have been working for decades to have the
00:56:35 greater Chaco Canyon area protected because it is part of their ancestral history.
00:56:40 It is a place where the Pueblo and Navajo people have gone for countless generations
00:56:47 to pray, to meet, to trade, and in the past have lived.
00:56:53 The reason why the people of New Mexico and Arizona and the surrounding tribal communities
00:56:59 have been working for countless decades to protect that site from oil and gas drilling
00:57:04 is because it is core to their spirituality, their identity, and the future of the people
00:57:10 of that land.
00:57:11 When Secretary Haaland came into office, there were already decades, decades of efforts that
00:57:18 had been undertaken to protect those lands.
00:57:22 There were countless members of Congress who had introduced legislation to protect those
00:57:25 lands.
00:57:27 There were other efforts by other administrations to try to set them aside.
00:57:30 In fact, as this committee knows well, this goes back all the way to the beginning of
00:57:35 the 20th century because those lands are so significant culturally for our communities.
00:57:40 So this doesn't represent some vast conspiracy theory.
00:57:44 This is about protecting tribal sacred sites that are critical to our communities.
00:57:50 Now I'm happy to talk about ethics violations, and so I will go back to the ethics violations
00:57:56 of the Trump administration and what we saw during the tenure of the two officials who
00:58:02 were serving in the Secretary's role.
00:58:04 Reassigning career employees they didn't like, threatening senators, stacking advisory committees
00:58:10 with fossil fuel industry executives, killing science they didn't like, using taxpayer money
00:58:15 to do favors for their buddies, compounding investigations, using taxpayer funds for political
00:58:22 efforts, inappropriately demanding privilege access to market-moving oil and gas data,
00:58:27 which was unprecedented, rewriting climate science over the protest of the authors, using
00:58:33 office to advance land deals in their hometowns, trying to fire an inspector general who was
00:58:39 investigating these matters.
00:58:42 There is a fundamental difference between having differences of opinion over policy
00:58:49 and what direction an agency should take, and legally binding ethics laws about what
00:58:56 those in power do with those positions of power, what access they permit, and influence
00:59:02 peddling.
00:59:03 There are countless efforts of influence peddling that were investigated over the Trump
00:59:10 and Bush administrations, and I think it's crucial that we address these issues through
00:59:15 changes in the law to ensure that they never happen again.
00:59:20 And I yield back.
00:59:21 I thank the gentlelady.
00:59:23 Just want to remind everybody, accusations are one thing.
00:59:27 Actual convictions are another.
00:59:33 We're innocent until proven guilty.
00:59:35 We can provide the inspector general's reports for you so you can see the evidence.
00:59:40 Well, okay, I'll give you something else.
00:59:41 That's evidence.
00:59:42 Once again, it has to go to a peer-reviewed body.
00:59:45 It has to go to a jury of our peers for going through with that.
00:59:49 So I mean, from that standpoint, I got to tell you, none of this has met fruition for
00:59:53 one reason or another.
00:59:55 Actually, there were multiple criminal referrals during the Trump administration.
00:59:59 Criminal referrals, once again, where's their due process?
01:00:02 What happened?
01:00:03 Nothing came about to them.
01:00:04 I'll give you another example.
01:00:06 You expect the DOJ to do everything?
01:00:08 Tell me about the anti-collusion aspect in regards to the DOJ implementing a law that
01:00:12 I had passed, the second to last one Trump actually signed, and to this day has not been
01:00:17 implemented an anti-trust collusion in regards to medical insurance industries.
01:00:21 Wow, that's pretty stark.
01:00:25 Mr. Walter, yesterday, the Daily Caller published a story complete with the links to emails
01:00:30 discussing how a senior advisor at BOEM sought the advice of Natural Resources Defense Council
01:00:35 and the Ocean Conservancy when attempting to figure out a legal justification for BOEM
01:00:41 to incentivize developers to invest in underserved communities as part of the Biden administration's
01:00:46 Justice 40 agenda.
01:00:48 When they could not provide a sufficient legal opinion, she continued to reach out to other
01:00:52 activist groups for a legal strategy rather than the solicitor's office at the DOI.
01:00:58 Now, I do think it is fair to say that every presidential administration should set its
01:01:02 own agenda.
01:01:03 I understand that.
01:01:05 This is normal and to be expected.
01:01:07 However, senior level of agency officials leaning on outside activist groups while in
01:01:12 office for a legal strategy to implement the administration's priorities is not a generally
01:01:16 accepted practice.
01:01:18 I would assume, is it?
01:01:20 No.
01:01:21 Obviously, you would normally go to your own experts and if it's a legal matter, you
01:01:26 could also, of course, go to the DOJ's appropriate section.
01:01:29 So, why do you think BOEM initially sought legal advice from the environmental and activist
01:01:33 groups?
01:01:34 Well, it's obvious actually in the emails themselves with those other groups.
01:01:39 They did not have a leg to stand on legally and the outside groups admitted that and said,
01:01:44 "You're coming to us because you can't invent any legal leg to stand on for the policy you're
01:01:49 trying to push here."
01:01:50 Now, additionally, back in February of 2021, NRDC emailed an exhaustive list of recommendations
01:01:56 to BOEM for developing their offshore wind leasing program.
01:02:00 Many of these recommendations are now implemented such as in BOEM's North Atlantic Right Whale
01:02:05 Offshore Wind Strategy, which include the NRDC's recommendations for avoiding leasing
01:02:10 in areas that could impact the right whale and setting noise limits during construction
01:02:15 to address potential impacts on marine life.
01:02:18 Mr. O'Neill, what do you think of these documented close relationships between these activist
01:02:23 groups in BOEM and the potential for improper influence on the development of their offshore
01:02:27 wind leasing programs?
01:02:28 There's an extreme potential for improper influence.
01:02:31 And what we've seen over and over again in this case in particular as well, this sue
01:02:37 and settle strategy where an activist group that shares the broad policy preferences of
01:02:44 the administration sues an administrative agency for a change in the law, claiming that
01:02:51 there's a legal requirement.
01:02:53 And then what the agency ends up doing is settling that lawsuit, agreeing to implement
01:02:58 the legal requirement while circumventing the natural requirements of the Administrative
01:03:03 Procedure Act and the notice and comment period.
01:03:06 And we've seen this happen over and over again.
01:03:09 The Biden administration has just ratcheted up.
01:03:12 And the example with BOEM is a number one example of that.
01:03:16 So do you think that BOEM allowed the oil and gas industry a similarly high level of
01:03:21 input to guide the development of the 2024-2029 oil and gas leasing program, which only scheduled
01:03:27 three potential oil and gas leases under sales in the Gulf of Mexico program area?
01:03:34 You're joking, right?
01:03:35 Yeah.
01:03:36 Well, of course the oil and gas industry does not have this kind of access.
01:03:41 And we've seen where the access is in the Biden administration.
01:03:47 It's all of these radical left-wing groups funded by dark money that have a bone to pick
01:03:52 against oil and gas as an industry overall because they're following this climate alarmist
01:03:58 agenda that believes that if you burn one drop of oil, you're going to bring about the
01:04:03 end of the world.
01:04:04 Meanwhile, we've seen over decades, all of the climate alarmist predictions fail to come
01:04:13 to pass.
01:04:14 The Maldives have yet to sink beneath the waves.
01:04:17 Kilimanjaro has yet to lose all of the snow that Al Gore predicted would be gone by 2020.
01:04:24 So this agenda yet is influencing the whole, influencing the administrative state in ways
01:04:31 that go around Congress, in ways that allow the administration to implement its agenda
01:04:38 without these checks that have been created by the law.
01:04:42 And meanwhile, the ranking member brought up Project 2025.
01:04:47 I just want to set the record straight.
01:04:50 Project 2025, and I'm not here as a representative of Heritage or The Daily Signal or Project
01:04:55 2025.
01:04:56 But what Project 2025 is trying to do is it's trying to make the administrative state more
01:05:02 accountable to the American people who elect a president every four years.
01:05:07 When a Republican president enters office, the administrative state is so wedded to these
01:05:12 left-wing groups and this left-wing agenda that the people's elected president is unable
01:05:18 to fulfill his promises to the American people.
01:05:22 And that is what Project 2025 is focused on.
01:05:25 My time has expired.
01:05:26 We're going to go to our third round.
01:05:27 And I recognize the gentleman from Montana for his questions.
01:05:35 I'm going to go back to Mr. Painter because we're trying, we are getting some breath of
01:05:42 bipartisan condemnation from you.
01:05:44 So I'll take it.
01:05:46 Do you believe, well first, I understand that you share similar concerns as the committee
01:05:52 regarding foreign actors and dark money seeking to influence federal policy.
01:05:58 Do you believe there's an effort by foreign governments to exert influence over public
01:06:03 lands and natural resource policy here in our country?
01:06:07 I'm sure there is an attempt by foreign governments to exercise influence.
01:06:14 As I mentioned, President Vladimir Putin gave the Presidential Medal of Friendship to the
01:06:20 Chief Executive Officer of Glencore Corporation in 2017, just as they were trying to petition
01:06:28 for opening a salt pond mine in Minnesota.
01:06:29 Let me ask you this.
01:06:30 I understand you've got this fixation with Vladimir Putin, and I'm sorry about that.
01:06:35 But what I'm trying to identify is, while there may be foreign entities that are trying
01:06:41 to develop the resources here, what about the foreign entities that are trying to keep
01:06:48 us from developing our natural resources?
01:06:51 I'm sure they're going to be active in that space as well, but I have to ask you.
01:06:54 Okay, I'm glad you say that.
01:06:55 Now let me ask you this.
01:06:56 Do you feel that the United States, with the oversight that we provide through the different
01:07:04 agencies that we have, is able to develop our domestic resources cleaner and with better
01:07:12 labor standards than other countries?
01:07:16 If we decide what our own rules are going to be, but we have more and more farmland
01:07:20 in America owned by the Chinese.
01:07:23 Do you believe, based upon what is actually taking place, not theory, what is actually
01:07:28 taking place in the development of our resources, that we do a better job as far as protecting
01:07:34 the environment and taking care of our workers than the development of those exact same resources
01:07:42 overseas?
01:07:43 Not necessarily.
01:07:44 Okay, would you please then cite to me some place that's doing a better job than one of
01:07:53 the coal mines that I have visited in Montana, Coal Strip, where we have not only the safest
01:07:59 development of those resources, but also reclamation efforts that actually can scientifically,
01:08:07 quantitatively prove that the land is more productive after it's been reclaimed than
01:08:12 it was before they extracted the resources.
01:08:16 So could you refer to me, cite some country that's doing this?
01:08:18 I am citing you to the repeated work I and many others have done about the corruption
01:08:23 of our campaign finance system.
01:08:24 Okay, so where is this country that's doing a better job of developing the resources and
01:08:29 protecting the environment and the workers than we are?
01:08:32 They will do a...
01:08:33 Where is this country?
01:08:34 China, Russia...
01:08:35 Where is this country, sir?
01:08:37 I'm trying to explain this to you.
01:08:39 If we don't fix our campaign finance system...
01:08:40 I'm talking about the geography.
01:08:41 Please explain to me the geography of a country that's doing a better job of developing natural
01:08:46 resources and protecting the environment and the people that are developing those resources.
01:08:51 Could you please cite that country?
01:08:53 What I'm saying is we're going to have foreign countries dominating our country.
01:08:58 That is the point.
01:08:59 What you're trying to do is allow foreign countries to control the development of the
01:09:04 resources here in our country when they're being developed more scientifically sound,
01:09:10 environmentally safe, and with better labor conditions than any other country on earth.
01:09:16 Meanwhile, you cannot cite to me another country that does a better job.
01:09:20 I'm moving on.
01:09:21 I'm reclaiming my time.
01:09:22 You're not moving on because you're not fixing the corrupt campaign finance system.
01:09:26 Sir, I'm reclaiming my time.
01:09:33 Mr. Walter, I would like to go back and spend a little bit of time on Secretary Haaland
01:09:39 because we hear about all the accusations.
01:09:41 We hear about all the complaints that were filed.
01:09:45 Look, you can file a lawsuit or a complaint against anybody in this nation at any time.
01:09:50 What counts is convictions.
01:09:52 Again, we are in this country still innocent until proven guilty.
01:09:57 When you're running one of these agencies, and we've had Secretary Haaland before us
01:10:02 many, many times, it's as much about the perception of a conflict of interest as it is an actual
01:10:10 conviction by the Ethics Committee.
01:10:13 In what ways are you aware?
01:10:15 I would like to go back to this Pueblo Action Alliance.
01:10:18 In what ways are you aware that this organization has been influencing the actions and the decisions
01:10:23 made by the Department of Interior?
01:10:26 Well, Congressman, thank you for the question.
01:10:30 As I said in my testimony in the written version, as more examples, I investigated the various
01:10:37 things that you and your colleagues have written in your letters to the Department repeatedly
01:10:43 with your concerns about Pueblo and the Secretary and Pueblo and the rest of the Department.
01:10:49 I think those are very well documented.
01:10:52 The other thing I would say real quick is that it's worth noting that all the accusations
01:10:57 of the previous administration, those accusations were made by multiple groups popped into existence
01:11:04 by the Arabella Advisors Network.
01:11:07 Thank you very much.
01:11:08 Mr. Chair, I yield back.
01:11:09 The gentlelady from New Mexico is recognized for her five minutes.
01:11:13 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:11:14 Well, these hearings are always a very interesting fever dream, but I'm hoping that we can bring
01:11:19 it to a conclusion soon.
01:11:22 First of all, I want to clarify how internal ethics investigations work at an agency.
01:11:27 We have a former ethics attorney from the White House who worked during the Bush administration.
01:11:32 These matters are generally investigated by an independent body within the agencies called
01:11:37 the Office of the Inspector General.
01:11:39 We created these after the Nixon administration because our agencies were engaged in unprecedented
01:11:47 activities which raised ethical concerns.
01:11:50 One of the ways in which we tried to restore trust in American institutions was by creating
01:11:55 independent investigative bodies that would look at ethics violations and then refer them
01:12:01 to attorneys at the Department of Justice in order for them to be prosecuted.
01:12:06 So I appreciate the comments that were made.
01:12:09 However, that is not how ethics investigations actually occur.
01:12:13 So to that end, I would like to ask unanimous consent to enter into the record an extensive
01:12:18 analysis by Walter Schaub, formerly of the Office of Government Ethics, which shows without
01:12:23 a doubt that the GOP's allegations against Secretary Haaland and these attempts to slander
01:12:29 her and her family are without merit and evidence.
01:12:32 I have without objection so ordered.
01:12:34 Great.
01:12:35 Thank you.
01:12:36 I appreciate that.
01:12:38 I think there has been an interesting discussion this morning about foreign influence on our
01:12:44 policies.
01:12:46 And I know, Mr. Painter, you were just asked about this a few moments ago.
01:12:50 And in my personal opinion, we're very disrespectfully interrupted.
01:12:55 So I'd love if you could share with us what you believe can be done to attenuate the influence
01:13:03 of foreign actors over policies that the Department of Interior is engaged in, whether that's
01:13:09 mining, oil and gas leasing, and other areas that these multinational corporations may
01:13:14 have an interest in.
01:13:17 A lot of the influence comes from the White House.
01:13:21 And this is over Democratic and Republican administrations.
01:13:24 In my 2009 book, Ethics, about ethics in Washington, getting the government America deserves, I
01:13:30 recommend that we have an inspector general in the White House.
01:13:33 That would help.
01:13:34 I've also recently recommended an inspector general at the United States Supreme Court,
01:13:39 that that's maybe beside the point of this hearing.
01:13:42 Furthermore, the Foreign Agents Registration Act needs to be enforced and also needs to
01:13:47 be amended to be very clear as to who is covered and who is not, and which activities need
01:13:53 to be disclosed.
01:13:54 This was passed in 1938 to protect the United States against German, Japanese, and Soviet
01:13:59 influence.
01:14:01 And there's been very haphazard enforcement of FARA.
01:14:06 And the Congress needs to revisit the statute.
01:14:09 The ethics rules need to be revised.
01:14:11 I plead with this committee to not engage in partisan attacks, in a competition to figure
01:14:17 out whether Republicans or Democrats do a better job of corrupting the Interior Department
01:14:21 or other agencies.
01:14:22 I implore this committee to fix our campaign finance system that makes us vulnerable to
01:14:27 foreign infiltration.
01:14:29 The Citizens United opinion of the Supreme Court opened the floodgates, and I can assure
01:14:33 you there's a lot of foreign money there, foreign libyan money coming into this country.
01:14:39 Our democracy is at risk, and the partisan food fights aren't helping.
01:14:43 This is not to be a spat between MSNBC and Fox News, I hope.
01:14:48 I hope this is a Congress that will protect the interests of the American people.
01:14:53 And the Interior Department holds these lands in trust for the American people.
01:14:57 There are lands, almost two acres, for every American.
01:15:00 They don't belong to the oil companies, the gas companies, and the mining companies.
01:15:05 Now, I'm fine with resource extraction when it benefits the American people, but I want
01:15:10 to see this Congress pass ethics rules that will allow the Interior Department to make
01:15:16 its decisions based on science, based on economics, not based on who had lunch with the Deputy
01:15:23 Secretary of the Interior.
01:15:25 Well, truly, Mr. Painter, I couldn't have said it any better than you.
01:15:29 I appreciate your commentary here today, and I will note, since you brought it up during
01:15:35 your testimony, that we actually just introduced a judicial ethics bill two weeks ago to bring
01:15:42 an Inspector General to the Supreme Court, because not only have we seen these sort of
01:15:46 ethical violations across administrations within our agencies, but we are also seeing
01:15:51 unprecedented tampering with the highest court of the land right now.
01:15:55 And so, I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly.
01:15:58 So thank you very much, and I yield back.
01:16:01 I thank the gentlewoman.
01:16:02 I'm going to go back to the United States Department of the Interior.
01:16:04 This is this letter that has been referenced over and over again, and I want to read two
01:16:08 parts.
01:16:09 "Based on the information provided to the DEO, Department of Ethics Office, the Secretary
01:16:19 does not have any direct or inputted financial interest under HUSC Code 208 with her child
01:16:26 or her child's employer.
01:16:28 Accordingly, Secretary Haland was not required to disclose her child's employment and other
01:16:33 business relationships on her nominee OGE Form 278E, Public Financial Disclosure Report,
01:16:39 or on her subsequent annual OGE Form 278E, Public Financial Disclosure Reports.
01:16:46 Additionally, it is the understanding of the DOE that the Secretary's child is not currently
01:16:51 a member of her household, and the Secretary, therefore, does not have a covered relationship
01:16:56 as defined in 5 CFR 2635-502B with the Pueblo Action Alliance.
01:17:04 However, further down, if the Secretary personally determines that a reasonable person with knowledge
01:17:10 of the relevant facts would not question her impartiality in performing her official duties
01:17:14 in this particular matter, then she may participate in the particular matter as part of her official
01:17:19 duties.
01:17:20 To this date, it is my understanding the Secretary has not determined that a recusal
01:17:25 under 5 CFR-2635.502 is appropriate as a result of her child's employment.
01:17:33 So we got that as text from the aspect here.
01:17:39 Mr. Painter, whose voice counts?
01:17:47 Whose voice?
01:17:48 The American people.
01:17:49 Okay, so when it comes down to a Native American tribe, whose voice counts?
01:17:54 I don't understand the point of your question.
01:17:57 You just cited a Code of Federal Regulations provision, and I'm happy to explain how it
01:18:01 works.
01:18:02 Well, I'm not interested in that aspect.
01:18:03 I guess not.
01:18:04 You just read it, but you don't want to hear how it works.
01:18:06 I got a lot of questions for you, so I'm going to use my time accordingly.
01:18:10 So do you realize that there's been numbers of Congress, including me, that went out to
01:18:14 talk to the Navajo Nation, and we had over 700 families attend, and give us discourse
01:18:20 in regards to what their allotments are, these oil allotments.
01:18:24 So my question is, whose voice rules?
01:18:28 Is it these environmental groups, or is it the actual Native allottee?
01:18:35 You're going to have to decide, and then the voters will decide in November where they
01:18:39 want to keep you here.
01:18:41 That's the way it works.
01:18:42 Okay, good, good, good.
01:18:43 So now, you say the American people.
01:18:47 So under the Taylor Grazing Act, there were some federal lands set aside.
01:18:51 And what were they set aside for?
01:18:53 Conservation?
01:18:54 Well, grazing, and I mean, but responsible?
01:18:58 They specifically cite that, don't they?
01:19:00 Yeah.
01:19:01 They cannot be used for conservation at all.
01:19:05 I think everybody would utilize that, but you have to use improving the grazing act
01:19:09 from one year to the next.
01:19:10 It has to be improved.
01:19:11 Number two, access to energy and minerals, cleaning out the forest, thinning the forest,
01:19:16 and then making sure that this is all acceptable.
01:19:19 Because why?
01:19:20 This land is held in trust, right?
01:19:22 Yes, and Congress makes those decisions.
01:19:25 And Congress passed a statute, and the statute should be complied with.
01:19:28 I'm glad you said that.
01:19:29 So explain to me how you sell this amortization of federal lands that just recently was disclosed
01:19:35 under the Biden administration, where we tried to use the New York Stock Exchange on our
01:19:38 public lands.
01:19:39 Yeah, conservation easement across there.
01:19:42 Are you really for that?
01:19:44 Are you really against that?
01:19:45 I haven't looked at that specific instance you're speaking of.
01:19:48 But you were so anti about foreign investors.
01:19:52 Here's your sign right now.
01:19:53 This is a perfect scenario.
01:19:55 This should never happen.
01:19:57 Because really, the states are next in line, and the American people.
01:20:00 It's not a federal government across the world.
01:20:03 Would you agree now, the gentleman?
01:20:09 Mr. O'Neill, would you agree?
01:20:10 Would I agree that the American people make the decision?
01:20:14 Yes.
01:20:15 And--
01:20:16 What do you think about this amortization of federal lands?
01:20:20 Yeah, I think it's a really airbrained idea.
01:20:24 And it will abuse the lands that are held in trust by the American people.
01:20:29 And what we're seeing here is an attempt to weaponize the value in those lands to change
01:20:36 our financial system, and to make it so that these green activist groups are able to upend
01:20:44 capitalism and turn it into a weapon of their environmental agenda.
01:20:48 Mr. Walter, so would you agree with that assessment?
01:20:53 Yes, absolutely.
01:20:55 I mean, it's obvious in all these things that multiple sides and interests need to be taken
01:21:02 into account and weighed rationally.
01:21:04 Now, I guess I'm just-- this will be my last question.
01:21:11 What was the question that you wish was asked today, and what is its answer?
01:21:16 I'll start with you, Mr. Walter.
01:21:18 Well, it wasn't asked.
01:21:20 The question wasn't asked.
01:21:23 No.
01:21:24 Well, I think one of them would be to ask about the ocean, the article that was mentioned
01:21:33 in the news yesterday with the Ocean Sub-Agency of Interior.
01:21:37 First of all, again, with the reporter, the refusal to have honest, rational debate, right?
01:21:43 They won't speak to the reporter to discuss what they've done.
01:21:47 And the other thing that's valuable there is that one of the groups involved was the
01:21:50 Ocean Conservancy, which I note has paid millions of dollars to Senator Sheldon Whitehouse's
01:21:55 wife, interestingly, which would raise ethics questions if the Senate had a rule saying
01:22:02 you can't do things that benefit your spouse's employer.
01:22:06 Mr. Painter, what was the question that didn't get asked that you wish was asked, and what's
01:22:13 its answer?
01:22:14 The question would be whether the Office of Government Ethics covered a relationship rule
01:22:19 which you cited, 5 CFR 2635502, should be expanded not only to cover particular party
01:22:26 matters in which one's previous employer is a party or represents a party, but also regulatory
01:22:33 matters, and whether such a change should be embodied in federal statute.
01:22:38 If Congress were to enact such a change, that would mean that Interior Department and other
01:22:43 public officials who come to Washington from their previous employers, whether they be
01:22:49 the Wilderness Society or Goldman Sachs or Shell Oil, would not participate in regulation
01:22:55 or deregulation of the industry in which their previous employers engage.
01:23:02 This would be a fundamental change to ethics in government.
01:23:06 I believe there are many good arguments for it, but you will get a lot of pushback, predominantly
01:23:11 from industry groups, perhaps from environmental groups as well, that such a change in ethics
01:23:17 rules might make it more difficult for the government to hire, bring in senior officials
01:23:23 with the needed expertise.
01:23:25 But I have seen way, way too much influence on Washington coming from the previous employers
01:23:32 of high-ranking federal officials, presidential appointees who come for two or three years
01:23:36 and then they go right back on out into the private sector.
01:23:40 And yes, some of them may go to environmental groups as well.
01:23:43 I believe this influence is excessive and is detrimental to the American people and
01:23:48 that we need to give serious consideration to whether to expand the scope of the conflict
01:23:53 of interest rules of the Office of Government Ethics, the very ones that you cited in five
01:23:57 code of federal regulation 2635.502.
01:24:01 Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
01:24:05 Mr. O'Neill?
01:24:06 I would say the question I'd like to have seen asked, with all due respect to everyone
01:24:12 who asked, is how broad exactly is this far-left infiltration of the Department of the Interior
01:24:21 under President Biden?
01:24:23 And I can count at least six organizations that really set my radar off, the Sierra Club,
01:24:33 the National Wildlife Federation, the Pueblo Action Alliance, the Wilderness Society, Earth
01:24:39 Justice, and of course the Southern Poverty Law Center.
01:24:42 I think we need to have more of a discussion of exactly how many of these groups are using
01:24:48 sue and settle to achieve their policies in this administration, and I've been glad to
01:24:54 see a lot of that exposed today.
01:24:57 You bring up an interesting point.
01:25:01 There's collusive ideas in regards to legislation being introduced and then an executive order
01:25:08 coming over and taking an exact language and putting in an executive order.
01:25:11 And it's both sides of the aisle.
01:25:13 I've seen this both sides.
01:25:15 So I just want to make sure that we're not exempting the behavior of those folks.
01:25:19 I want to thank the witnesses for their testimony.
01:25:23 I now would like to say if anybody has any additional questions, they may do so in writing
01:25:29 and we'll give them to the end of the week and then we'll ask you for 10 days to get
01:25:32 those back to us.
01:25:34 Under Committee Rule 3, members of the committee may submit questions to the subcommittee clerk
01:25:37 by 5 p.m. on May 3rd.
01:25:39 Hearing record will be held open for 10 business days for their responses.
01:25:43 If there's no further business, we're adjourned.
01:25:47 You are voting.
01:25:47 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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