During oral arguments in the City of Grants Pass v. Johnson on Monday, Chief Justice John Roberts questioned US Deputy Solicitor General Edwin Kneedler about a shelter hypothetical.
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NewsTranscript
00:00If there is a, the town next to Grant's pass, 10 minutes away, has just completed building a homeless shelter that has many vacant beds, does that change the analysis here?
00:18I mean, we've talked about the town wanting to get, ship people out of the town.
00:22Would it be, would there still be a right to sleep contrary to the ordinances in Grant's Pass because you don't want to be taken 10 minutes away where there's a homeless shelter?
00:35That goes to the question, I think, under the analysis of whether the beds are available.
00:40And I think if they're right across the town line, it would be appropriate to take into account that there's a homeless shelter there, even though it's not one in the city of Grant's Pass.
00:49But often in a situation, the two towns might cooperate to have one homeless shelter.
00:54Well, yeah, they might, but often most towns don't always cooperate.
00:57So what if it's 30 miles away?
00:59Is it, is the shelter available in that case for your purposes?
01:03Or are you going to tell me it just depends on all the circumstances?
01:06Well, I think it depends on how.
01:07So municipalities won't have that much time.
01:09I think it depends on the accessibility.
01:10I mean, what are the fundamental points here?
01:13The accessibility is that when an officer comes up in Grant's Pass and finds a homeless person and says it violates our ordinance, but I will give you a ride down the road, 30 miles, whatever it is, because there's a new homeless shelter there.
01:27And the person says, no, I don't want to do that.
01:29Can that person be given a citation?
01:31I think probably not.
01:34But let me, if I could explain why.
01:36I mean, obviously there are questions at the margin here.
01:39But I think one of the principal features here that shouldn't be overlooked is the city is seeking to banish or expel its own residents, its own citizens, people whose children can go to school in that location, who may pay taxes in that location.
01:54So if the 30-mile away shelter requires the person to leave his community and to live in another place, that implicates that aspect of the problem here.
02:03Well, let's see.
02:04I mean, how far does that go?
02:05Let's say there are five cities all around Grant's Pass, and they all have homeless shelters.
02:11And yet the person wants to stay.
02:13You know, I've been a Grant's Pass resident for a long time.
02:17I don't want to go to one of those shelters.
02:19Can that person be given a citation?
02:22I think because of the concern I've mentioned, I think that would be a serious problem.
02:27You would say it would be a problem to give them a citation?
02:31Yes, I think so, because you would be requiring, or the city's ordinance requires them to leave the city of Grant's Pass.
02:41If the homeless shelter is right over the line, they can still be part of the community of Grant's Pass.
02:46No, but it's in another city.
02:48You keep fighting the hypothetical.
02:49No, and that's why I think it's different.
02:51I'm not prepared to say, you know, that absolutely not.
02:54But I do think it's different because the city is implementing its policy of banishing people, its own residents.
03:02Banishment is a strange word when you're talking about something 10 minutes away.
03:07Well, again, the question is whether you could still realistically be part of the community where you grew up.
03:14The figures show, and in fact JA 114.115 here shows, that most of the homeless people in Grant's Pass are from Grant's Pass.
03:22Counsel, everyone's mentioned, not everybody, many people have mentioned this is a serious policy problem.
03:28And it's a policy problem because the solution, of course, is to build shelter, to provide shelter for those who are otherwise harmless.
03:36But municipalities have competing priorities.
03:39I mean, what if there are lead pipes in the water?
03:42Do you build the homeless shelter or do you take care of the lead pipes?
03:45What if there isn't enough fire protection?
03:47Which one do you prioritize?
03:49Why would you think that these nine people are the best people to judge and weigh those policy judgments?
03:55We're not suggesting that.
03:57We're not suggesting that the only solution is for, especially in the current circumstances, the only solution would be to build homeless shelters.
04:06As I mentioned, time, place, and manner restrictions, I think, are a very sensible way to go.
04:11And, in fact, as I mentioned, Oregon state law requires that.
04:14In other words, a city adopts a provision that you can't sleep on the sidewalks anywhere because that obstructs people seeking to move.
04:24You can't camp near a school.
04:26You can't camp downtown.
04:28You can't sleep downtown.
04:30You might be able to sleep in a park, and that could be patrolled for drug use and whatnot.
04:40None of these other laws are inapplicable if there's a time, place, and manner restriction.
04:46This is an old question, but eating is a basic human function as well that people have to do, just like sleeping.
04:53So if someone is hungry and no one is giving him food, can you prosecute him if he breaks into a store to get something to eat?
05:00Absolutely. Absolutely.
05:01Breaking into a store is a common crime that not everybody engages in, unlike sleeping, which is what we have here.
05:09But it's a necessity for the person who needs food.
05:14It's not a necessity to break into a store.
05:19Well, you're fighting the hypothetical.
05:21I'm saying this person needs food.
05:23And the Eighth Amendment does not require that that person be excused from doing it.
05:29I think there's a certain amount of common sense and practicality to this,
05:34and it's, I think, well understood that just like drug use is not something the Eighth Amendment excuses you from, either is eating.
05:41And the problem with eating is addressed at the local level, as the history and the poor law shows,
05:47is that the community takes care of its own residents.
05:50And it's common now, as it was at the founding, for churches and individuals and whatnot to offer their help, the charity in the community.
05:59And that's what happens in Grants Pass.
06:01Various organizations feed the homeless people, and there are social services to help the homeless people.
06:10So this is consistent, except for the absolute ban on sleeping in the city.
06:16Otherwise, the community's response is what has been done down through history.
06:22Thank you, Counsel.
06:23But it's the city's absolute ban that interrupts that continuity.
06:26Justice Thomas?