The Bleachers musician and super-producer talks about his creative process, working with Nick Cave and Florence Welch, and headlining Madison Square Garden
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00:00That's the one thing I can sort of sow between all of us is like this like general feeling,
00:05like you have to express something. It's like urgent and you just have to get it out,
00:10but you can't really put a name to it. It's just like feelings, this thought,
00:13this distant thing that I think about writing like that, that you're constantly like chasing after.
00:25Hi, I'm Nick and I'm joined by Jack Antonoff of Bleachers for the latest in enemies in
00:29conversation series. How's it going today? Good. How's the album been going down on tour so far?
00:34We just did one night, which was pretty amazing. It didn't feel like a first night.
00:40It felt good. Well, we're a few hours ahead of show two at the moment and there's already a
00:46load of people waiting outside, which is a good sign. Yeah, it's never bad.
00:52What was the starting point for this album? Did you kind of have a set objective in mind?
00:57I make albums always like I'm fucking around for a bit of time and then at some point there's this
01:04like line in the sand where I start to see it, what it is, and then as soon as I see it,
01:09that's when I understand the objective and how I want to express it. But it always comes at
01:15funny moments. I saw in a previous interview you said that each album is kind of like a house.
01:19Yeah, I see them like houses. I see songs that would be the entry point, songs where lots of
01:26people could spend time in, songs that are very personal, like attics or basements. And they're
01:33always different houses and they look different and they feel different. But I guess the
01:39overwhelming metaphor is that they need to be something that can be lived in, even if they're a
01:45small house or a castle or whatever it is. How would you say this one's different from the previous albums?
01:53The past I thought so much about what had happened and what could happen that I kind of found myself
02:02smashing back and forth between the past and the future. And something happened with this album,
02:06I feel like I kind of like fell out of the sky and landed on my feet. And
02:12something about it feels like super conversational. And I don't know, it feels like you're in the room
02:17with me or something. I've never felt like that before. And I don't know what prompted it. I've
02:21been trying to consider why. But I don't think a lot about why I feel the way I feel. I more just
02:28tend to write about it and then let that be the almost the thinking that I'm doing.
02:32That's so interesting that it kind of feels different in that way. And I guess if you can't,
02:37if you're not entirely sure why it was like that, you might want to look at it.
02:40If you're not entirely sure why it was like that, you might, you probably can't kind of
02:43consciously try and recreate that kind of vibe again.
02:46No, but I don't think about it more when I'm writing and making albums. I think that
02:51I'm just trying to like chip away at this thing. And then when it's done, it's done. So I'm not,
02:57then I get very obsessed with like celebrating it, which is I think what touring is.
03:01Thinking about it, like, I'm not like a religious person, but I think a lot about like,
03:05I think people have this like personal relationship to like a God or whatever,
03:09and they go to a place and they celebrate it with people. And lately I've been feeling there's a
03:14lot of that with the making of an album and then the playing of the shows.
03:19Yeah, no, totally. If we carry on with the like house analogy, I guess when you're building a
03:26house, you need to find a point where you stop. You could always continue renovating.
03:30Like, how did you know when this album was all finished?
03:35I never struggle with that. I always know exactly when something's done. I don't know
03:40why. It's just a feeling. And I just think, oh, that's done. And I always listen to that.
03:45But there's a lot of my work is to just continue to reinvest in whatever gut feeling I'm having.
03:50Who were your main musical influences when you're making this album?
03:55Well, that's the thing is one of the reasons why I self titled it is because all the influences
04:00were just coming from the band. I just sort of stopped thinking about anyone but my band.
04:07If you're making an album, is it kind of distracting to listen to too much other
04:11music? Do you have to kind of focus on the stuff you're making?
04:13I kind of naturally do. I don't know. I don't know what would happen. I just
04:18naturally end up spending most of my time with the tapes from the studio and what's going on.
04:25Not like averse to other music. I don't mind if I hear it or not. But I do find myself sometimes
04:30gravitating towards more familiar music that I know. So I'm not thinking about it because I'm
04:34doing all my heavy thinking about what I'm making. Yes. I wanted to ask about the song
04:38Self-Respect from the album, which has a really interesting chorus. I'm so tired of having
04:42self-respect. Let's do something I'll regret. I was wondering what was going through your mind when
04:46you wrote that song. I think a lot about this version of self-respect as defined by everyone
04:52else in the world. It feels like there's a real black and white thinking of how to function. And
05:05I think most humanity is more in the middle. So I felt like, especially when it comes to writing
05:09songs and art, I got obsessed with the way that we speak online. It's so definitive. I'm devastated.
05:17So sad about this. Blah, blah. This is how I feel. And that kind of lives forever in that
05:21zone. But most people feel a lot of pain and a lot of joy. And they're hungry. And they do this
05:25and do that. Your mind moves so quickly. That was that whole Kobe Kendall day that I had held her
05:31last kind of loop in my head of someone I don't know that's tragic, something stupid, something
05:36really personal. Your brain just moves so quickly that it feels so exhausting to have any version
05:42of self-respect that isn't your own. And I think we live in a time when wellness is so commodified.
05:48And the way we treat ourselves is commodified. And the opinions we're meant to have are
05:56commodified. So it feels like I just feel fucking tired of having anyone's version of self-respect
06:01that isn't my own. Or Nick Cave put it perfectly when he said, some version of how boring it is
06:08to comment on things that are morally obvious. And I think about that a lot, especially when I'm
06:13writing. What is your version of self-respect then? How do you quantify it? To do what I love.
06:20I've lived my life in the studio and on tour. And that's how I communicate. And it's how I feel
06:25myself. So everyone has a different version of it. But I think maintaining it as you define it and
06:34not as it's defined in a moment in culture is pretty vital to maintain dignity in our own
06:43human experience as more and more of our lives become other people's reflections. It's really
06:49important to reject that, especially as an artist or someone in the public eye. There's so much
06:54pressure to tow any kind of party line of thinking. And the truth is I have thoughts that aren't
07:03really quantified by any person or community. They're just my own. And so I don't, I don't know,
07:09I guess, be as readable or predictable as I'd be celebrated to be if I were to be.
07:17Are you quite good at kind of zoning out what's being said on the internet? Because as you
07:21touched on earlier, it's a place of massive hyperbole. Everything's amazing or awful,
07:25really. Is there anything in between? No, I mean, it's tough because you want to interact with your
07:32times, even if you don't like your times. I'm very conscious of how people
07:40speak to each other and what's going on politically and culturally and everything. But then I think
07:45that's also why I love touring and studio because I can just go there. Door shuts and all that kind
07:50of goes away. I feel like I'm doing something far more important for myself and for my community
07:56in those spaces. Do you see kind of touring and recording as separate things or can you
08:02be creative when you're on the road? They're pretty separate. They're separate. They are.
08:06They're really pretty separate. And there's interplay, but they do really function in
08:10different ways for me. And I happen to love both, but they're very separate. So if you are on a long
08:15tour, you're not going to be like sitting down before a show and maybe like fiddling with a song?
08:20I might, but I do find myself pretty immersed separately.
08:23I also wanted to ask about a lyric on Modern Girl where you say,
08:28I guess I'm New Jersey's finest New Yorker, unreliable reporter, pop music hoarder.
08:32How did those words come together? I love this expression, pop music hoarder.
08:34Yeah.
08:35Because I felt lots of us who love music feel like that.
08:37I just thought that a song sort of started to become almost like a bleachers theme song.
08:43And often when I'm thinking like that, I want to take the piss out of myself and my friends.
08:48So I just kind of, I don't know, they made me laugh, those lines.
08:52And anyone from the area gets it. But to call yourself New Jersey's finest New Yorker is like
08:57the height of my version of comedy.
08:59I think I counted that you recorded the album in six different cities.
09:04More than that in terms of studios, if I counted.
09:06Probably more, but yeah. Mostly, I feel like New York, New Jersey, New Orleans and Paris
09:10were the big tentpoles of where I spent the most time.
09:14Was that by design or was it just the way your schedule came together? Like,
09:17do you feel the need to kind of move around?
09:19No, just schedule. I can work anywhere. So I just, you know,
09:23if my partner has to be somewhere or there's something going on, I don't mind being there and
09:27working. Often it's nice. I like being in Paris. I don't speak any French,
09:30so I felt like an alien. I just couldn't hear or I couldn't understand what anyone was saying.
09:37Just walk into the city, walk to the studios.
09:39Kind of left with my own thoughts because I didn't understand what anyone was saying.
09:43So it's kind of nice.
09:44Yeah, I guess that's quite a good way to be creative.
09:46You don't have to be distracted by chatting to everyone you bump into or anything.
09:49Yeah, and you're not sort of, like, poisoned by all the words you hear.
09:53So it felt very clean and easy to write there.
09:56Obviously also known for producing amazing songs for so many other artists.
10:03I was wondering, if a call comes in to work with someone,
10:05how do you decide whether it's a yes or a no?
10:08Especially at this point, I guess, where you must be so in demand
10:10and you can't do everything, even if maybe you wanted to.
10:14Well, I just try to, if there's ever something that sounds interesting at work,
10:19I try to meet people and then see if you can imagine doing things with them and then try to,
10:23you know, the ability to make something with someone is so, like,
10:27delicate that you could like someone, you could love their work, but it might not work.
10:30So it's just very, you just kind of have to try and then be very honest when it happens or it doesn't.
10:38And I tend and intend to follow the things where I feel a lot of inspiration and excitement.
10:46So yes, it's all kind of gut feeling.
10:49But yeah, it can be a bit awkward if it's not there.
10:52Yeah, you can't really fake it.
10:53I was wondering, say if you're in, like,
10:54the first ever session with an artist you haven't worked with before,
10:57and it's not happening, like, you're not creatively kind of sparking,
11:01can you kind of work through that and get to a point?
11:03Or do you think that chemistry has to be there?
11:04No, I think it's there, it's not.
11:05Is that really?
11:06I don't think it's really fakeable.
11:08At least not for me.
11:09I've never been able to, if I don't, yeah, it's almost like in the same process,
11:16you could find yourself so distressed or in such joy in the same room,
11:21and you never want to have, you know, if it's not working, it's like,
11:25it's kind of like a sacred place.
11:26I don't think you should push too hard.
11:29I don't think about it like that, yeah.
11:31If it isn't working, it must be quite an awkward conversation for you
11:33and whoever else you're working with to be like, yeah, like, we're not really...
11:38I mean, I always find some amount of pride and joy in telling the truth,
11:43so if you can hang there, but it's not very often I've been in that position.
11:49I mean, I usually, yeah, lately it's been a lot of interesting work
11:56with people I've worked with for a while.
11:57So, but yeah, I mean, sometimes it's nice to just be like,
12:01yeah, you know, I think I'd rather work on this,
12:06and you should probably do something else.
12:08Because if you touched on like writing a song with someone is a very intimate thing,
12:12like you're both having to kind of give something of yourself.
12:15Do you feel like being a producer who's worked with so many artists
12:18means you have to have a particular kind of set of empathy skills, listening skills?
12:24I don't know, maybe.
12:25I mean, it's hard for me to know because I'm only me,
12:29me, so I don't know particularly like what emotional skills I'm good at,
12:36because I don't get to witness myself.
12:39I just get, yeah, I don't know, half the time I feel like, I don't know.
12:44It's interesting as I go out and do interviews, I get so many questions of my process,
12:46but I don't have good answers.
12:48I don't think about my process.
12:50You know, I guess maybe at some point if I'm later in life, you know,
12:52I'll have a book about all my experiences, which is not really something I intend to do.
13:00But like, I don't, I haven't, it's not something I think about.
13:03So I don't have like, I don't have like terribly like interesting answers about
13:07what makes me good at the work I do because I'm just doing it.
13:15But I don't know, half the time most of my memories are joking around a lot in the studio.
13:20That's quite nice memories to have.
13:22Yeah, I always remember the bits, above all.
13:25So I guess like, I was going to ask like,
13:28if your process works differently with certain types of artists and others,
13:31like, is it different with a band to a solo artist?
13:32But is it always about having gut instinct and reacting in the moment?
13:36It's always about gut.
13:36Yeah.
13:37So yeah, there's obviously massive differences.
13:39But at the end of the day, the one major similarity is
13:42to hear what you hear and recognise when you hear it.
13:47Recognise when you have that feeling, that really precious feeling.
13:51It's all you're looking for and it doesn't really matter how you get there.
13:55That's the common term between anything that I do.
13:58Amazing thing happened earlier this year,
14:00you became the first person to win producer of the year at the Grammys three times in a row.
14:03Is that something you could ever get your...
14:05Second person.
14:06Second person, who was the first one?
14:07Babyface.
14:08Oh, he won three times in a row, I thought he...
14:09I know he's got four in total, but...
14:11You can't, you can't, you can't.
14:12Yeah, Babyface did it.
14:14I only met Babyface where Babyface is.
14:18Yeah, well, is that something you can get your head around?
14:20Not really.
14:21I don't, and I don't spend...
14:24I think it's interesting, you know, when you...
14:27Because I spend so much of my life writing,
14:29I really focus so much about where that comes from.
14:35And sometimes like any like markers of success or stuff that's like hard to get my head around,
14:40they don't really lead very many places.
14:42I'm sort of left with like, whoa, you know, so I feel very grateful.
14:47But then I also kind of just like my natural reaction like that whole week
14:51for the Grammys, I was in the studio because like that's where I can kind of think straight.
14:55You know, if I was just sort of like hanging out or being with friends or talking about that week,
14:58I might, it might just be a lot of like, this is crazy.
15:00Like, yeah, it's great, you know.
15:02So I just tend to be, to go back to this place where I can make sense of what's going on.
15:11Um, yeah.
15:14So anytime I'm like, have like a whoa moment, I just try to go back to the studio and
15:21work on something I'm imagining in my head.
15:25So it's a pretty shit answer, but yeah.
15:29You've also produced a soundtrack to the Apple TV series,
15:33The New Look, which is about French designers, Dior, Coco Chanel.
15:39What attracted you to that project?
15:41Because it's really interesting the way you've done the music for it.
15:45Well, I had this conversation with Adam Kessler, who created it.
15:49He's brilliant.
15:50He's made so many things that I love.
15:52And we just talked a lot about that time period and these sort of like great wartime propaganda
15:58songs and how they were like beautiful and trying to put a spin on it.
16:02But in a weird way, kind of told the truth through their dissonance,
16:06talked about modern artists making them, finding this line of them sounding
16:12classic but new.
16:14Finding artists, I started thinking about artists I love now who have voices that exist
16:19in any time period.
16:20That's why, you know, like people like Florence or Nick Cave or Barchi Strange or Perfume
16:26Genius.
16:26There's sort of these like, they don't exist in any time period.
16:31And it was, I really loved working on that.
16:33It was very inspiring to make those songs.
16:37It was a real joy.
16:38I like doing things like that.
16:39They're sort of like these like, they're inspiring in a different way.
16:45These film projects that I sometimes do that feel a little bit separate from having to
16:48like rip my guts out on my own records.
16:51And then I can just sort of go over here and have a little bit more fun in the studio and
16:55mess around with like reimagining a classic song with some great artist.
17:01What was the process for choosing the songs?
17:03Because I mean, we've got Florence doing White Cliffs of Dover.
17:05Nick Cave does La Vie en Rose.
17:07Perfume Genius does What Difference a Day Makes.
17:09I mean, they are like, they're classics of their era, but they are from such a different
17:14time.
17:14Totally.
17:14Well, it's a pretty like, it's not a lot of music that most people still listen to from
17:19that time period.
17:20So I just went through it with Adam, just sort of all of our favorites from that time
17:24and just sort of started to pick ones and different versions.
17:28You know, there's a Sinatra version of this song that there's also, lots of people were
17:34kind of playing the same songs and doing all different versions of them and picking out
17:40the ones that we really liked and starting to make my list of those modern artists that
17:45I felt could make sense in this and then started to just put them all together.
17:50And then once we had an idea, we'd go call.
17:52And some people I knew were friends, some people I didn't know.
17:55So if it's something like Florence, I just called her and said, hey, it was this idea
17:58doing White Cliffs and here's how I imagine it.
18:01And then we'd talk about it.
18:02And then something like Nick Cave, it was, I didn't know him, so it was just, I was like,
18:07can someone ask Nick Cave if he's interested?
18:09If he is, then I would love to get on the phone with him and then we'd talk about it
18:13and just talk to people about this time period of, you know, it's about fashion and Nazi
18:19occupation of France and whatnot.
18:21But what it's really about is creation in the face of horror.
18:24You know, creation happens even in the worst times in the world.
18:28So that had to be laced in with the feeling in all the songs.
18:33I think it's such a cool kind of overarching concept for an album.
18:37Yeah, I really love, they're still sort of trickling out week by week and it is loved
18:42working on it.
18:43And I was doing it at the same time as the Bleachers album and it felt like this like
18:46little like escape into another time period.
18:49Yeah, it must have been quite nice to kind of dip back like that.
18:51Yeah.
18:52I've got a quote from you from 2014, which feels a bit mean.
18:54It's like reading out someone's school report.
18:56I'll go for it.
18:57But you said, to get away from music, I do other music.
18:59If I'm producing someone's songs or writing someone else and doing a Bleachers song is
19:03an escape and it keeps me creative.
19:04Do you still kind of feel that way?
19:06Yeah.
19:07Yeah.
19:07I mean, I like to leave my day pretty unstructured.
19:10So I just kind of go to the studio and work on what I feel like working on, because that's
19:17where I feel like you're most useful.
19:18So if you bring like a level of joy and excitement to something, I don't want to ever work on
19:21something because I have to work on it.
19:23And so I try not to or I don't because I wouldn't be, so much of my work is about giving the
19:29best of myself to something and I never want to treat it with any kind of darkness of like
19:35I have to be here because that's not how I feel.
19:36I don't feel that way on tour.
19:38Even the way I structure tours, I try not to be gone for too long at times.
19:41I never want to get used to it.
19:43I always want to keep the shock.
19:45So yeah, there's truth to that quote.
19:49I feel like...
19:49I said it, there's a better reason.
19:52When music is made in a labored way, you can kind of always tell.
19:55I feel like fans will pick up on that if it's a little bit forced in some ways.
19:59Well, the process can be, you can be so labored about how you feel and what you do, but when
20:04you actually, the pieces that actually become the songs of the album, those have to be these
20:10magic parts that didn't come from that.
20:12So often there's labor around it just to get to those bits.
20:15Yeah.
20:17You've announced Madison Square Garden show for October.
20:21That must feel huge for you.
20:22It's such an iconic venue, massive venue, and it's a New York venue.
20:26No, it's really crazy and so much of my writing is about shadow of the city and being from
20:30New Jersey and Madison Square Garden, if you believe in all this mythology, is kind of
20:35artistically the castle on the hill.
20:38The castle on the hill.
20:40So it's pretty surreal, a bit like what we were talking about with Grammys though.
20:44It's not something I can sit around and think about too much.
20:46I'm kind of like, okay, I guess I'll go back to work.
20:51But I like that.
20:52I like to, you know, songs and albums and whatnot, they're not, they're often things
20:58that someone experiences alone and then if a lot of people gather to experience them
21:01together, that's magical.
21:02But I never want to get too far away from just the person in headphones listening.
21:06Yeah.
21:07So I often end up back there pretty quickly.
21:10If I imagine like the band's playing in the garden, I'm like, let me just go back.
21:15Well, I guess it must have been somewhere where you went to see a lot of people growing
21:17up, so to kind of think like that, you as a kind of a fan, it's kind of, that would
21:21be a head fuck.
21:22Yeah, I mean, I have so many of those people I meet or people I get to work with or venues
21:28I get to play or just being in a band or doing these things is such a wild mind fuck of what
21:33I dreamed about when I was young.
21:35Yeah, no, I can imagine that.
21:36But I didn't get to be a professional skateboarder.
21:39At some point I really had to choose one or the other because I was really skating so
21:42much and then when I, it was kind of like, oh, I'm going to break my fingers or my arm.
21:47So it's kind of like I had this like fork when I was like 13 or 14 when I really just
21:51went music.
21:52But I could have been very happy as a skateboarder.
21:55I really enjoyed it.
21:56Where do you think your urge to create comes from?
21:58I don't know.
21:59I never have.
21:59I've always felt like really misunderstood and it's like this like driving, pounding
22:04in me.
22:05But I don't know why I feel that way.
22:07I've had a nice life.
22:08Do you still feel misunderstood?
22:10Yeah.
22:11Really?
22:11Yeah, most people I know who write do.
22:14It's like this like weird search for something inside you that is undefined.
22:19It's the one thing I can sort of sew between all of us is like this like general, um,
22:25feeling like you have to express something.
22:29It's like urgent and you just have to get it out.
22:31But you can't really put a name to it.
22:33It's just like feeling this thought, this distant thing that I think about writing like
22:37that, that you're constantly like chasing after.
22:41Does that always exist on the same level intensity?
22:42It never really goes away?
22:44Hasn't for me.
22:45Maybe one day.
22:47Maybe that's when I'll write that book.
22:49No, I don't know.
22:49I don't know.
22:51I think there's this like looming fear that it goes away, but then just sort of carries
22:53on.
22:55Do you feel like you learn a lot about yourself through writing songs?
22:59At times I do, but a lot of times I look back, I feel like when I'm writing I'm so like
23:03process obsessed that sometimes I look back and then think like, oh, wow, that's what
23:07I was expressing.
23:08I definitely retroacted and I kind of lost myself and I, I guess I just lost myself in
23:14that process.
23:15oh, wow, that's what I was expressing.
23:17I definitely retroactively learn a ton.
23:20I guess sometimes it must take a bit of time as well.
23:22You might not know instantly.
23:24Yeah, well, often you write things that you don't know.
23:26That's why you write them, because you're
23:27trying to figure them out.
23:29I think that's always a good place to write from.
23:31If you're writing something that you're not sure of,
23:34there's usually a wealth to get into there.
23:37It's been, I think, 10 years since the first Bleached Songs.
23:41How would you say that the band has evolved in that time?
23:46Just kind of like miraculously, it's
23:48really crazy to look back, because on one hand,
23:51it feels like you start to look around.
23:56I've had this a number of times in my career,
23:58and you realize it's a rarefied zone you're in.
24:00A lot of the people you came up with aren't there anymore.
24:03And you just sort of think like, wow, yeah,
24:09we got something right here, because we're keep kind of,
24:13yes, it's strange.
24:14I have it often when I see people that came up
24:17at different times with me.
24:18And we're like, wow, we're still here.
24:20So it's so amazing and weird.
24:24It must be, because obviously, so many musicians never make it.
24:27And others have two or three years where it kind of all pops,
24:30and then that's it.
24:30No, totally.
24:31I feel that way many times in different ways of like,
24:38but once again, I feel like one of the themes
24:40that we keep talking about is like concepts
24:41that are too big to like spend too much time in.
24:44So I just sort of go like, oh, OK.
24:45I guess I'll go back to the show or the studio.
24:49How far ahead do you like to look at your schedule?
24:51Very little.
24:52Really?
24:53You don't want to know what you're doing in like four
24:54months' time.
24:55Well, I don't plan.
24:55My schedule is a lot less planned than people might think.
24:58I try to keep it pretty open.
24:59I mean, I like to book studios, so I can go to the studio
25:01or whatever.
25:03But I don't want to, I don't like being too like boxed in.
25:07I have to do this.
25:09I want to see how I feel.
25:10And that's good for other people I work with too.
25:12So I'm like available and not just there because I'm there.
25:18Just ask one more question.
25:19Do you have any particular aims for the rest of the year?
25:23So many.
25:24But that's another question that's too big.
25:26So I'm sort of like, I'll just get to the show tonight.
25:29Thanks so much for your time.
25:30Thank you.
25:30Cheers.
25:31Lovely to chat.