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00:00 I'm very pleased now to welcome to the programme Jodie Ginsburg. She's the CEO of the Committee
00:05 to Protect Journalists. She joins us from London today. Good afternoon to you. Thanks for joining us.
00:10 You're very welcome.
00:12 I want to get your full reaction to the ruling in a moment. But first, could you just clarify
00:18 something for us? I know that CPJ has strict criteria for what defines a journalist. So,
00:24 yes or no, do you agree with what Assange's wife just said that Julian Assange is a journalist?
00:30 We at CPJ don't classify him as a journalist, but we absolutely back his case 100% because
00:40 the crimes for which he is being charged would apply to journalists everywhere. And if he is
00:46 indeed convicted and charged in the United States, it would be a blow for journalists and journalism
00:54 across the world.
00:55 Indeed. And I asked you that question because you will know very well that there are people
01:01 out there who say CPJ shouldn't be fighting on behalf of Julian Assange because the way he acted
01:09 was not a way a journalist would have acted, that he acted maybe like a source for a journalist,
01:13 but he wasn't a journalist himself. How do you respond to those kinds of questions?
01:20 Well, those people would be wrong. It's very important that we speak out publicly
01:25 against this case. Julian Assange is facing espionage charges for publishing thousands
01:33 of leaked classified documents that showed wrongdoing by the US government, including
01:39 the US Apache helicopter shooting of a number of civilians in Iraq, including two Reuters journalists
01:46 who are my colleagues at the time of their killings. So it's absolutely vital that we
01:53 fight strongly and loudly against this case because the implications for journalists and
01:59 journalism everywhere are profound.
02:01 It's only a partial victory though today, isn't it, for Assange? What was your reaction
02:06 when you heard the ruling?
02:08 Well, we obviously welcome the fact that the UK High Court has not rejected Julian's leave
02:18 to appeal against his extradition. It's disappointing that they haven't allowed that
02:23 appeal outright. It's given him some space to be able to appeal and I'm very pleased
02:30 that the UK Court recognised that in at least one of the grounds that they've given for the
02:36 delay that they're concerned about his free expression rights, his First Amendment rights
02:41 and the ability to use that as a defence. This is a free speech case and it's important
02:47 that they recognise that.
02:48 Can you spell out for us really what your fears are if Julian Assange is extradited
02:57 later on to the United States for himself and also more widely for journalists?
03:03 Well, our fear, of course, that if he is brought to the US and if he is pursued on these
03:09 espionage charges, then any journalist who receives information about government wrongdoing
03:16 could be pursued and prosecuted by the United States. It's important to remember that
03:21 Assange is not even a US citizen. He's an Australian citizen. So imagine in France,
03:27 for example, if a French journalist were to receive information about wrongdoing by the
03:31 US government and was to publish that, they could be pursued by the US government. The
03:36 work of journalists worldwide relies on our ability to find out information that governments
03:44 would rather keep hidden. That's part of the essential work of a journalist. And if the
03:50 US is successful in this prosecution, that will sound the death knell for that kind of
03:54 vital investigative journalism work worldwide.
03:57 Is that really the case, though? Because even as you say, Assange is not a journalist. So
04:03 surely journalists would be treated rather differently. Is this really precedent for
04:07 journalism?
04:07 Absolutely. There's no guarantee. No one has ever been prosecuted in that way. And
04:13 there's absolutely no guarantee that the US government would not bring that kind of case
04:18 against a journalist or a news outlet. And in fact, all of the news outlets in which
04:25 the discoveries of WikiLeaks were published, and the likes of The Guardian in the UK or
04:30 the New York Times have come out very strongly in Julian Assange's defence and called on
04:35 the US government to drop these charges. So there's absolutely every reason to be concerned
04:42 that the US government would not stop here.
04:44 I want to ask you just finally, if I may, about another press freedom story this week.
04:50 This is a court in Russia that yesterday extended the pre-trial detention of Evan Gershovich,
04:56 the Wall Street Journal reporter. He's been held in Russia for nearly a year on espionage
05:02 charges now. What was your reaction to that decision yesterday?
05:06 Extremely disappointed. Not surprised, of course. This is a pattern that we see with
05:12 Russia that these kinds of pre-trial detentions are often extended and then extended to
05:19 individuals, wait a very long time, even to be brought to trial. We continue to call for
05:25 Russia to drop these charges, which are completely without any foundation. And we want to see
05:32 Evan and another colleague, Alsu Kamysheva, who is also in jail in Russia, released as
05:37 soon as possible.
05:38 Jodie Ginsberg, the President of the Committee to Protect Journalists. It's a pleasure to
05:43 talk to you. Thank you.