Ex-Sunderland kitman Stephen Aziz talks Kyril Louis-Dreyfus, Alex Neil, Charlie Methven and new kits
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00:00:00 [Music]
00:00:20 Hello, welcome to the RAW podcast. We are currently slap bang in the middle of the international break, which means there's no football.
00:00:28 But fortunately for us, we're joined by former Sunderland kit man, Stephen Aziz. How are you doing? Thank you for joining us.
00:00:35 I was just thinking about international break there because that was the news to look really forward to.
00:00:39 I used to be able to nail a couple of days off, but then obviously for everybody else, it's absolutely devastating for two weeks.
00:00:44 There's no proper football on.
00:00:46 No, I can well imagine. Yeah, 12 years as a kit man at Sunderland. We'll tackle that first.
00:00:52 Obviously, you had stints with Manchester City and Middlesbrough as well, which we'll come to.
00:00:56 But my first question really is, how do you get into becoming a kit man? I'm really intrigued by this.
00:01:02 Yeah, it's a question that I've been asked quite a lot, really. People asking, sliding the DMs, asking, can I get your job now you've left?
00:01:09 It is really a tough one. Obviously, there's not many around. There's more than there used to be because most teams really only had one kit man back in the day.
00:01:19 But now it's like some clubs have got teams of kit men.
00:01:22 I think Manchester City now, speaking of the lads there, have got like seven kit men there and all singing and dancing, which you've got to have to support the team and support the players.
00:01:31 But yeah, basically my pathway was through my mum was working in the lounge at Middlesbrough.
00:01:37 So it was sort of a case of knowing someone on the inside that got me in.
00:01:43 Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, 12 years at Sunderland. I think your first manager, if I'm right, was Martin O'Neill.
00:01:51 Yeah, it was Martin O'Neill, yeah. He was the first manager that I'd come to Sunderland with.
00:01:55 And previously, I'd had managers at other clubs, but Martin was obviously a bit of a legend and sort of knew what you were getting with him.
00:02:01 A bit old school, he's sort of a manager.
00:02:03 I remember that time vividly because I was a season ticket holder at the time.
00:02:09 And when he came in from Steve Bruce, obviously when Bruce left, it was this sort of big deal because Bruce had been there so long.
00:02:15 And that first sort of six months under Martin O'Neill was just absolutely sensational. It wasn't at the club.
00:02:21 I think people forget now because it's so long ago and it was such a short period of time.
00:02:25 But we were like second or third in the Premier League form table.
00:02:28 We had results against Manchester City on Boxing Day. We were scoring worldies.
00:02:32 I remember like Craig Gardner against, I think it was Swansea City and Sessignon against Swansea.
00:02:38 I'll have to stop you because I come at the back end of the Martin O'Neill.
00:02:42 So I saw the bad parts.
00:02:45 What was Martin O'Neill like then during that sort of bad patch?
00:02:50 Because it did actually turn sour pretty quickly for Martin.
00:02:52 Yeah, I think so. I must have sort of coincided with the really bad times.
00:02:56 Obviously, because he was a bit out of, not really probably himself and not really as motivated as you'd think this guy was going to be with the history and stuff that you'd seen about Martin O'Neill.
00:03:04 I sort of remember a couple of things briefly because I think it could have only been a couple of months that we were there together before the managerial switch was done to the carrier.
00:03:15 But I think I sort of remember him being quite quiet and timid and not really this guy that I was expecting him to be.
00:03:21 Do you think maybe he missed his assistant because John Robertson didn't go with him, did he, to Sunderland?
00:03:27 Not sure because Wally was there and he was a character and everyone really liked him.
00:03:33 Seamus the goalkeeping coach and he had a decent team behind him.
00:03:36 So possibly, but like I say, Wally was a top man, good character around the place and Seamus the goalkeeping coach, good people.
00:03:45 And of course, Martin O'Neill made way for Dicanio, who is sort of in football infamy.
00:03:51 He appears on many a podcast as Paolo Dicanio.
00:03:54 Many things are said and written about. What was he like from your point of view?
00:03:59 From my point of view, it wasn't great.
00:04:01 I'd obviously left an Italian manager at Man City and then come into contact with an Italian manager.
00:04:08 It was like, oh my God, here we go again with Italian managers.
00:04:11 And things started to change really quickly.
00:04:13 And obviously it's well documented about the tomato sauce gate and all that was removed from the canteen.
00:04:20 And sort of no phones in the building and everyone had to be on the best behaviour.
00:04:26 There was no music allowed.
00:04:29 I think one of the masseurs got told that he couldn't play music and the lads had to listen to music through the headphones.
00:04:34 So there was no real atmosphere in the dressing room when you try and get the lads pumped.
00:04:37 And you look around the dressing room, there's guys walking around with headphones on.
00:04:40 So you're not really sure what the lads are listening to.
00:04:42 And I think from what I've seen over my time, I've always really had a designated DJ, whether it be me.
00:04:50 I think at the minute it's Clarkie, Jack Clark. Honestly, that guy could be DJ because he's just got bangers after bangers.
00:04:57 And it could be something old or something new and he's just got the lot.
00:05:02 I think the lads at the minute are always looking at Clarkie for the tune.
00:05:05 So they're probably missing out at the minute with him not being playing.
00:05:08 Absolutely. What was it like when Di Canio came in, the change in the group as well?
00:05:14 Because there was a lot of senior pros in that group as well, wasn't there? John O'Shea?
00:05:17 Yeah, I think initially it was really good. Obviously, Kat Sharesy, like you say, wears good group professionals.
00:05:23 I think really at the start it went really well.
00:05:26 And obviously, results come quick and that's what you want.
00:05:29 The initial impact of a new manager, that's what you look for when you're changing a manager.
00:05:33 Someone to come in. I think everyone did get together and get on board to start with.
00:05:38 But I think it quickly became, maybe not quickly because obviously we stayed up.
00:05:43 But then the next season, I think it was a long pre-season and it got a bit monotonous.
00:05:50 Again, we were in for 30, 40 days straight on the spin without any games.
00:05:55 That becomes really tiring because as much as you want to work hard and the lads are getting paid with really good money,
00:06:01 it's really tough to be in there every day, looking at each other for that continuous amount of days.
00:06:08 And again, people are only human, aren't they? I think a lot of football fans and journalists,
00:06:13 myself included, were guilty of overlooking that human element at times, aren't we?
00:06:17 Realising that these are guys and they need days off as well.
00:06:20 They do, yeah. They've all got families and some of the lads were not living in the area.
00:06:25 A lot did at that time. I think it's a big deal if you're going to come to the club, especially this size.
00:06:31 You've got to buy right into it and you can't be commuting.
00:06:34 Obviously, we've seen players that have commuted and not really come to the area and lived in it.
00:06:40 I think the group that we had at that time were really involved in it and were in it.
00:06:46 Absolutely. You've obviously witnessed quite a few memorable moments during your career and had an inside view.
00:06:55 But one thing I wanted to ask about is what is it like when Sunderland beat Newcastle in a derby?
00:07:00 Obviously, just thinking of Ticanio there, you had the famous three-nil at their place.
00:07:03 That must just be such a buzz to be part of. Obviously, you're from the North East, not Sunderland-born,
00:07:09 but you've got a massive affinity to that club.
00:07:11 It must be an incredible thing to witness and be a part of.
00:07:16 I don't think I'd realised what it was like. I'd obviously done middles for Sunderland, middles for Newcastle derbies.
00:07:21 Then to see my first game of the derby, the Newcastle-Sunderland derby, was at the Stadium Light,
00:07:27 I'm not too sure which game it was. I think it was a draw. I'll have to find out which one it was.
00:07:31 Was it 1-1 when we got the last-minute equaliser?
00:07:36 Possibly. Just on the terms of the atmosphere, I've seen games and obviously I've done Manchester derby previous to this,
00:07:46 and I've come into it thinking it'll be a standard derby, when it literally is much more.
00:07:50 The passion, I just remember seeing this woman and she was screaming at, who would have been the Newcastle manager at the time?
00:08:00 Pardew?
00:08:02 Yeah, it was Pardew. It definitely was Pardew. She's just come from behind the home team dugout and she's just screaming and swearing.
00:08:12 The game hasn't even kicked off yet! I'm like, "Wow, this must mean a lot to them."
00:08:17 Obviously, we do the six in a row. I'm really social and I do like to get out and about.
00:08:27 Obviously, because I'm about the same age as a lot of the players that play on this team, I get dragged into the social side of things.
00:08:34 The lads are going out celebrating after the game. I remember a couple of nights we've been with Danny Rose, Carlos Quellar, a couple of others,
00:08:44 I think Stephen Fletcher, and I was with a couple of my mates. After one of the derby games, we've come along and we've had a good celebration.
00:08:53 I think you've just got to make the most of it. If I could look back then, I think, "When will this happen again?"
00:09:00 There are times when a few are far between. I really did like to make the most of it when we beat Newcastle, especially.
00:09:08 Absolutely. Back to D'Caneo, he made way and eventually had the likes of Digg Advocaat, Sam Allardyce.
00:09:16 What did you make of that period at Sunderland? It was quite rocky, wasn't it? It was just about beating Newcastle and then staying up,
00:09:25 which Sunderland managed to do, but the club just never really managed to push on, especially under Ellis Short, the former chairman.
00:09:32 Yes, I think obviously Ellis put a lot of money into the club. It's well documented about the amount of money that was spent on players and wages.
00:09:41 It really was a time when Sunderland was just throwing a lot of money at things. I won't lie, it was an enjoyable time.
00:09:48 I had trips to Dubai with Sam, a pre-season trip to the States with Dick, and flying all over business class, first class private jets.
00:09:57 A lot of things that you don't see that side of. Social media was there, but it wasn't really showing you the real details of it.
00:10:04 I think we flew out from Newcastle to Las Vegas and then we get a private flight from Las Vegas.
00:10:11 It was painful because I love Vegas. We've literally landed in Las Vegas on the Strip and swapped airplanes from one to a private one.
00:10:19 Then I think we went off to Canada. So you don't really see this side of things. It was really good times. I did really enjoy that period.
00:10:28 Although we were struggling, we always managed to get over the line and stay up. I think initially the Sam one was huge.
00:10:36 Obviously I remember us being everything at home and Sam was on the pitch pumping his chest and stuff. That was incredible.
00:10:41 So enjoy the last couple of weeks of the season knowing that you've stayed up and then you can have your break and go on holiday.
00:10:47 Obviously Sam ends up getting the England job and that was devastating for me because I remember speaking with Cookie.
00:10:54 I wasn't on. The lads had a bonus schedule and some of the staff didn't. I wasn't on that, but Cookie had arranged with Sam.
00:11:01 Sam was going to look after you. He's seen your hard work and he's going to get you looked after.
00:11:06 So next season we'll get you on the bonus. Then obviously Sam had left to go to England. I was devastated about that.
00:11:11 Then obviously Moyesie came in.
00:11:13 Just on Moyesie, what was he like? I think from a supporter's point of view, the shift from Allardyce to Moyes was quite stark.
00:11:21 Obviously there was a lot going on behind the scenes, but it seemed like there was something to build on there with Allardyce.
00:11:28 I won't go into specifics, but the likes of Jan Kertschoff didn't appear to be managed as well under Moyes as they had under Allardyce.
00:11:37 Players like Wabi Qazri as well. It all just seemed a bit flat when he came in.
00:11:41 Yeah, I think that's what Sam was good at and everyone knows from what he's done with all of his club teams.
00:11:49 Sam's really good at getting the group together. I touched on the Dubai trip.
00:11:53 Obviously we beat Man United and Wabi had scored. Sam's just really good at getting everyone together and pushing in the same direction.
00:12:01 Then David comes in and you think this is a similar calibre of managing.
00:12:04 They're probably on par with what they've done and achieved in their careers, but he just wasn't that character that you were probably hoping for.
00:12:11 Far from having Sam and being that guy and getting everyone together, David was a bit more individual and speaking to them rather than getting them together as a team.
00:12:22 Maybe that's possibly where it went wrong for him.
00:12:26 I think he must have learned from it because he's flying at West Ham.
00:12:30 My dad's a big West Ham fan and we've just been speaking about going up to the West Ham game against Newcastle in a couple of weeks.
00:12:38 I'm still going to sit in the West Ham end and cheer them on against Newcastle.
00:12:42 To see him doing so well at West Ham, it's a bit painful for us because why didn't it work out here?
00:12:48 Obviously there's more details and probably more of the backroom side of things that didn't go right for Moyes at Sunderland.
00:12:56 Ultimately that's why we're probably in the position we are now because obviously things didn't work out and we get relegated from the Premier League after so long.
00:13:05 Absolutely. One of the main narratives that I can remember from that time when things weren't going so bad,
00:13:13 and it would be really interesting to hear your perspective on this, was this idea that there was a rotten call within Sunderland.
00:13:19 It was players that had been there a long time, Catamuol, O'Shea, Brown, all of those sorts of players who were consistently at the club.
00:13:28 But to my mind, whenever there was something positive about Sunderland, that group of players tended to be involved in digging Sunderland out.
00:13:37 I wouldn't accept that idea because seeing Wes and Shasey, this car of people, cats, you need people like them around.
00:13:48 I think it's something that they're coming to miss. Now we don't have these.
00:13:51 I'm really happy for Corry to be back in the group because I know how much he'll be pushing and striving.
00:13:56 Just to touch away from it, I see everyone saying sounds gay about Henderson at the minute,
00:14:02 but I've heard that Henderson is really one of the guys that really gets the group together.
00:14:06 So although he's not doing it on the pitch at a level, and obviously he's saying that he's come back from Saudi now,
00:14:14 but he was still getting picked when he was playing out there, it's because he's a key part of the group.
00:14:18 I think what a lot of the town of fans don't see is that these players who are not always on the pitch,
00:14:24 they're also playing a huge part in getting the group together and getting them pushing in that direction.
00:14:30 I think at the minute, Sunderland don't really have enough of them around to help the younger lads
00:14:36 because we've got a really good young team and I think with the support of some older, experienced players,
00:14:42 if you get that balance right, because I don't think you can just go for the youth,
00:14:46 I think you've got to go with a real good mixture.
00:14:50 So obviously to go back to that, people like Kat having them around, I would refute anyone who would say we hung on to them.
00:14:59 If anything, it's them guys that are keeping the team and the club going.
00:15:04 It's interesting that because there does sort of remain that opinion amongst Sunderland fans,
00:15:08 but whenever you speak to anybody like yourself or anybody who was playing with them at the time,
00:15:13 it's always refuted, which I always find really interesting.
00:15:16 I think that rotten core sort of thing was probably driven by D'Caneo really, wasn't it?
00:15:21 In the way he sort of came in, all hell broke loose and then he left.
00:15:24 Yeah, because them guys, the ones who got together there said we can't go on like this.
00:15:29 And if you look back now, D'Caneo hasn't had a job since Sunderland, so that sort of says everything that can be said about him.
00:15:36 And the lads who've been in them positions, like John O'Shea is obviously interim manager,
00:15:41 I mean, he's a good professional and they've been at the top of the game.
00:15:47 We were really lucky to have him around at Sunderland at the time.
00:15:50 Absolutely. One bloke that you mentioned that I want to go back to was you came to the club under John Cook,
00:15:57 who was ex-Sunderland player and long-serving kit man as well.
00:16:00 What were your thoughts on working with him? Again, never hear a bad word said about him.
00:16:05 And actually, when you speak to people, I've spoken to Niall Quinn, Mickie Gray, amongst others about him,
00:16:11 and they say that he was an integral part of the dressing room, which is perhaps sometimes something we as fans don't realise.
00:16:17 That, yes, it's about the players and the manager, but there's a big network of support staff and they're just as important.
00:16:23 Yeah, they are. I owe my career and everything I am about as a father, as a husband.
00:16:32 It's emotional to say because he's a diamond of a guy and I could not thank him enough.
00:16:38 When you meet other kit men, other teams, you get on, you speak to them, but you only meet them twice a season, if you're lucky.
00:16:46 And Cookie, from the first time that I'd met him, I'd not come into contact with him previously.
00:16:52 I'd been around for six or seven years and I'd not really seen him.
00:16:55 And the first time that I did, he was in his office at Sunderland and he'd expressed that he was looking for someone to come and help him.
00:17:03 And we sort of continued this conversation through the season.
00:17:08 And yeah, without Cookie, I wouldn't be at Sunderland and without him as well and his advice and just who he was as a guy.
00:17:16 And his family, the kids, his wife, just really good people.
00:17:21 And Sunderland was their lives and by default, I'd taken over from John.
00:17:27 It was a really tough time for me because I'm looking at this guy and I think I've previously called him my work dad.
00:17:33 We just didn't have a crossword and I could not have a bad word said about him.
00:17:39 Everyone loved Cookie and he was the heartbeat of Sunderland.
00:17:43 And he was in that academy and he was around and he was different places in the offices.
00:17:49 And it was really hard to sort of follow up after John.
00:17:54 And it did really hurt me to see how things sort of went.
00:17:59 And obviously, Covid sort of got the blame for that and all the politics and the things.
00:18:04 And it was really hard for me to take over.
00:18:06 I obviously took his job basically by default.
00:18:10 We both had to get interviewed for the job and there was one role.
00:18:14 And I was under no illusions that they weren't taking me because I was a better kit man.
00:18:18 They were probably taking me because I was the cheaper option.
00:18:21 And I'm not daft, I know that.
00:18:24 But yeah, me and Cookie still speak this day.
00:18:26 Still got a really good relationship.
00:18:28 And yeah, be a friend for life and his kids, Zach and Jay and his wife, Janice.
00:18:36 I hold them really in high regard. I can't speak highly enough for them.
00:18:40 No, absolutely. And that sounds like it must have been an absolutely horrendous situation to be involved in as well.
00:18:45 Again, speaking to Niall Quinn, I think it was at John Cook's testimonial, which was brilliant at South Shields.
00:18:51 And I asked him about the moment in the playoff final against Charlton where John Cook's the one consoling
00:18:57 Miggy Gray after Miggy Gray's missed the crucial pitch.
00:19:00 That pitch is still up in the lounge. I think we've got that pitch up in the lounge.
00:19:03 Yeah, you're still there.
00:19:06 That's just, again, I've taken seeing that picture and obviously the times that we've had and the ups and the downs,
00:19:14 you've just got to be there for that as much as you celebrate with them.
00:19:18 When things don't go right, you've got to also be there to pick them up as well.
00:19:22 Well, this is it. I asked Niall Quinn about that picture and he said that was one of about 10 million times
00:19:27 where Cookie was the guy lifting us up.
00:19:30 That must have been hard for you to come in and effectively be replacing your mentor, your friend and a seismic figure at the club.
00:19:38 It's tough not to see these people, people like Cookie, people like Cat Spaulding.
00:19:45 We should have them people around because they're the ones who feel everything in the club.
00:19:50 And again, myself, 12 years being there, it's hard for me living in Middlesbrough, being a Borough lad.
00:19:57 I thought I was just going to go up there and I'll just see it as a job.
00:20:00 And really, obviously, I've seen the Niall Quinn statement about getting under your skin and it really doesn't.
00:20:06 No one can put themselves in my shoes unless you've been there and seen it and done it and felt what it's like.
00:20:13 And I think if any man would be in that role and see what it's like and what it means for as long as I have,
00:20:20 you can't really give... because I've had a lot of stiff being in Middlesbrough.
00:20:26 I can well imagine.
00:20:28 Especially my beaters this season, I was getting dogs abuse because it was early kick-off.
00:20:33 We'd previously won, Ross had scored last season, so I was given a bit out of our line.
00:20:38 But this season, after the 4-0 defeat, I was getting a lot of stick and it was really tough.
00:20:43 Is it good dogs abuse or is it straight into the realm of bad dogs abuse at times?
00:20:48 No, it's all in good fun, but you can only take so much of it.
00:20:52 I've got to cut my make-short this season. I was like, 'Right lads, that's me. I've had enough of it.'
00:20:59 But that's why we do it, we love it. You've got to take the rough with the smooth and there's been plenty of that at Sunderland.
00:21:07 Absolutely. So we've talked about the club under Ellis Short, John Cook.
00:21:11 Obviously, the decision to make John Cook redundant, that came under Charlie Methven and Stuart Donald.
00:21:17 Their tenure at Sunderland is really well documented. There's a whole Netflix documentary about it.
00:21:22 My main question centres around Charlie Methven, really, because there's a lot of chat about whether that persona on Netflix is true to life.
00:21:31 In my experience, when I met him, it seemed pretty accurate, to be honest.
00:21:35 But I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on that and about him and that ownership in general as well, because it was crazy. It was mad.
00:21:41 I think you've got to take people of how they are with you. Charlie was fine with me.
00:21:48 Donald was really good to work for, for me, and certain little things that I'd seen him do for staff and how he's treated some of the staff that are there didn't treat us badly.
00:22:01 So with all the negative stuff that comes in and what they want you to do and people thinking about their own agendas,
00:22:08 I'm just speaking how I find them both, and they were both actually fine with me.
00:22:13 Actually really good, really. Then day to day, got on well with Charlie. He'd be in and around the place.
00:22:20 Donald the same. Didn't really see Stuart as much, but yeah, absolutely fine with me.
00:22:25 So I can't come on here and absolutely slate him for the way they were.
00:22:28 Obviously the Netflix things, probably everyone's seen that, but no, I think as much as I'd probably want to make everyone happy and jump on the bandwagon and slate them too,
00:22:39 I can't really speak ill of them because I know that they've treated really well some of the staff that have worked for them through here.
00:22:46 And I don't want to go into their own stories personally, but I know that they've treated people decently.
00:22:52 And that first season in League One as well, I think maybe it's forgotten a little bit, but for large parts of it, there was momentum.
00:22:58 It was going really well. Donald and Method were popular up until a point.
00:23:02 There was the double trip to Wembley under Jack Ross. From a Sunderland fan's point of view, that season killed me.
00:23:09 So God knows what it must have felt like for you because it showed so much promise and then it just fell away at the end, didn't it?
00:23:14 It was heartbreaking.
00:23:15 You know, what I would say is that we were, as a staff group and a player group, to be relegated, we were on the floor.
00:23:24 And a lot of credit to Jack Ross because he'd come in with his team, James Fowler, John Potts, Sammy the goalkeeping coach, and they were just good people.
00:23:35 And they knew everyone's name. And I found myself a couple of times, and I know definitely one of the players did, Benji Kimbioka, got caught out a couple of times calling Jack Ross 'mate'
00:23:46 because this is how much of a nicer guy he is. Everyone's with him. We're all pushing in the same direction.
00:23:52 And ultimately, when you get to these finals, it's fine margins. And it doesn't matter.
00:23:57 Like you look at Man City, Liverpool, these teams can still lose these games. It doesn't matter who you've got in charge.
00:24:03 It's just really it's fine margins. And a lot of credit to Jack. He got the full group. He got the staff together.
00:24:11 We were doing team bonding. We were going out for meals. He just really wanted everyone together.
00:24:16 And I cannot speak highly, I really rate Jack Ross as one of the top man managers, people manager, nice person.
00:24:24 And I honestly can't wish him well enough because of what he did for the club in getting everyone together off the back of another relegation.
00:24:30 We were on the floor. And obviously to get to the finals, we were over the moon.
00:24:35 And we thought it's a done deal. We are going to get up. And obviously it wasn't meant to be.
00:24:41 But yeah, I think that first season was it was sort of quite funny because you think you're going to go up.
00:24:47 Let's enjoy these places like go to Wackerinton and go to all these sort of smaller places.
00:24:52 A novelty in the beginning, isn't it?
00:24:53 Yeah, it was a novelty. And you couldn't get a ticket for a game, an away game.
00:24:57 And you're still getting all these fans coming to the home games.
00:25:00 It was incredible. And you think and then obviously it turned sour by being in that league and the divisions for so long, going through so many managers.
00:25:09 It was tough.
00:25:11 No, absolutely. That group though, the League One group, so to speak, especially the first year and moving into the second and third years and fourth years.
00:25:19 But there was a lot of characters in that dressing room as well. It wasn't a post-Premier League era.
00:25:23 I'm just thinking that Lee Catmull was still there for the first year. You had Chris Maguire come in, Aidan McGeady, you know, Lyndon Gooch.
00:25:28 I know you're close to him as somebody that's emerging. There's a lot of, I want to say, mischief in that dressing room at that time, I reckon.
00:25:36 Literally, my group chat's been popping up this morning. So I have Max Power, Charlie White, Goochie, John Jones.
00:25:43 We've got a group chat. It's called 'You What?'
00:25:45 It's just some of the brothers I've had saying, 'Chas, they're good guys.'
00:25:51 To still speak from the staff, it's been so long and we catch up every now and again in person.
00:25:56 Goochie, yeah, good friend. But them lads, Max Power, he really did come into the group.
00:26:03 Obviously, he got made captain and got everyone together. Good guy. Family all come up. Got really close to them.
00:26:13 They're sort of like now Maccams, Stout's Maccams. They've come up and they've really just, like I'm saying,
00:26:20 they've really invested everything into it. Because it could have been easy for Max to say, 'Look, I'll just go up to Sunderland
00:26:25 and I'll come back on the weekend and I'll see you.' But they really got into the Sunderland life and the kids went to school there.
00:26:31 It's really nice to see when players come and they really do jump into the surroundings and get involved in everything.
00:26:38 Lugo 9 is definitely in that category as well, isn't he? Did you foresee him becoming such a big figure at Sunderland
00:26:45 when he came in? Obviously, when he first came in, he struggled, didn't he?
00:26:49 I actually, the first day I remember Lugo 9 coming in, obviously not heard of him before.
00:26:54 He's come in with his agent and his agent looked more like the player than Lugo 9 did.
00:27:00 So I shook his agent's hand and said, 'I'm Steve's kit man. What number do you want to be? What size kit?'
00:27:06 And Lugo 9 was like, 'No, I'm the player.' You see Lugo 9 is a bit of a tramp and he's always in his joggies and things.
00:27:13 I think he won't like me saying that. But I remember the first day meeting Lugo 9.
00:27:18 I definitely didn't see him being what he is now. I'll credit Lugo 9 for jumping in and taking it in his stride.
00:27:25 He's a Sunderland hero already and he's been through it all.
00:27:31 I found myself speaking to Lugo quite a lot recently before I left because him and his wife have got a couple of kids.
00:27:38 We've got two kids. I think there's a month between our two youngest.
00:27:43 So we're sharing stories. Is the kid sleeping? What's he eating?
00:27:48 We've become really close recently over that and he sort of understands my decision that I need to take a step back from this
00:27:56 because I've got to put some of my time into my family life now because as a kit man you've got to give up literally every weekend and a lot of hours.
00:28:05 Well, talk about that because I have a little bit of an idea of what it can be like going away every other week and you don't get a lot of time to yourself.
00:28:12 But just how intense is a football schedule? Is being at a football club full time?
00:28:17 Because it does become your life, doesn't it? I know it's become a massive part of my life and I just cover the club. I'm not involved in it.
00:28:25 Yeah, so obviously initially when I'd moved up from Manchester City I thought, 'Bloody hell, Sunderland's 45 minutes away. I can get up and down.'
00:28:33 And then after 12 years it's like, 'It's not quite 45 minutes, it could be an hour because the United's night there.'
00:28:40 The schedule is horrific. Midweek games, overnight stays, long trips all over the country.
00:28:50 We're in Sunderland with the furthest team away from your closest game. Obviously at the minute it's Middlesbrough but then you're looking at Leeds, Sheffield and you're still three hours away.
00:29:00 I'm lucky I'm a bit further southside and I always jump out and get on a bit quicker from the away trips. That was a bit of a bonus.
00:29:06 I think you've got to make the most of your days off. I think if you've got a good manager and someone who's setting the schedules and you're looking at days off,
00:29:18 you probably could get a Wednesday and Sunday off if you're lucky. If not, you could be looking at seven to ten consecutive days in.
00:29:25 So for me that looks like seven to ten days driving up and down the A19, which is really tough.
00:29:31 I've got to be the first one in. I'm the first one in at seven o'clock in the morning and I'm probably one of the last ones to leave.
00:29:39 That looks like five o'clock so I'm leaving the house at six to get there at seven. I'm leaving there at five and get back at six.
00:29:46 It's a 12-hour day before I know it. It's an hour with the kids before they've got to go to bed. That's what's become really tough for me in the job.
00:29:54 Speaking from personal experience as well, it's really an underrated thing being able to have two days off in a row in the same week.
00:30:03 When you don't get that it's really hard, isn't it?
00:30:06 It's International Break and I think I've really made the most of it. I think it's my third week off now and I've really made the most of being able to take the kids to school.
00:30:15 Doing all that stuff. International Break, you're looking through the calendar when the pictures come out.
00:30:21 I'm looking for when we're playing middles round, looking for when International Breaks are, when birthdays are.
00:30:26 It's just some family time. I am a social guy and we do like to do things and get out and about and football sort of consumes that.
00:30:37 Absolutely. Just heading back to the football and going back onto the loose timeline.
00:30:42 We left it on Jack Ross. He gave way to Phil Parkinson. How did you find him?
00:30:48 It didn't go too well for him at Sunderland. A bit of a tumultuous time at the club as well.
00:30:52 There was fan protests from memories on social media. An interesting time to be a Sunderland fan that was.
00:30:58 I'll just be honest. How I find and how I see Charlie and Donald. I remember Parky's first game.
00:31:07 I'm managing house solely. I'm on my own. Parky was great. First day, I think we played Oxford away.
00:31:15 I think we had one training session travelled. I remember coming from…
00:31:22 What we do for away games is the players and staff will all eat together and then we'll go to bed.
00:31:28 Parky wanted to get the staff together and we'd eat separately. I remember my first meeting with Parky in Oxford.
00:31:35 He had a bit of paper and he was like, "Steve, you used to always call people 'my son'."
00:31:42 I was like, "I've had a bit of a rough week." I'll tell you what, Gaffer, I was shandy.
00:31:46 From the first time I met Phil, we'd had a fitness coach, Nick Allenby, who'd been at Bolton with Phil.
00:31:53 I'd previously worked with Nick at Middlesbrough. He could not speak highly enough for Parky.
00:32:00 He was great as a guy in and around the place. He was fine. He wasn't this big character, like a big Sammy sort of expecting.
00:32:08 I think if you look back, we were really unlucky enough to get into the playoffs. Obviously, COVID cut that short.
00:32:13 But I'll let you know how people are as they were with me. He was great with me.
00:32:21 That was a weird one, wasn't it? Because Sunderland had games in hand but didn't make it into the playoffs.
00:32:26 What was that like, actually, the COVID period for you, going from being in work to not being in work?
00:32:32 The whole uncertainty around football. Because it was uncertainty around life in general, wasn't it?
00:32:37 I think initially, being selfish, it was great.
00:32:41 Probably pleased, probably happy.
00:32:43 Everyone thought, "Oh, our week off moves back." So, you're thinking, "Let's have a nice week off here and chill and spend some time with the family."
00:32:51 Three months later.
00:32:53 Yeah, and then, bloody hell, I don't think anyone knew how things were going to go. But initially, it was really good. I won't lie.
00:33:00 It was good to think, "I'm not going to have to drive up the A90 every day." And obviously, Cookie was still around at the time.
00:33:06 So, we'll just see what happens.
00:33:09 Obviously, things transpired and everything didn't really work out great for a lot of people, personally.
00:33:16 It was really sad times in the end for what people lost and what everyone went through.
00:33:21 Then, obviously, the club ended up getting stuck in League One for another season.
00:33:25 Then, obviously, the project restart, Cookie's gone. We're now with Nike because we were with Adidas when COVID hit.
00:33:33 Then, we ended up moving over to the Nike deal, the five-year deal with Nike.
00:33:37 I was the first kit man to bring the Nike stuff in.
00:33:41 So, obviously, if you're signing with the Nike deal, you don't want to see any Adidas around.
00:33:46 Obviously, we'd been with Adidas for five years previously.
00:33:49 So, we had to move all the Adidas stuff out. That was my initial job as I came back.
00:33:54 It was to get rid of and move out all the Adidas stuff.
00:33:57 I think we'd done a deal with a company who took all the Adidas stuff.
00:34:01 Classic Football, I think they took all that stuff.
00:34:04 The Nike stuff started coming in. The players come in and collect the kit, but they can't come into the building.
00:34:08 They've got to train outside. So, we set up the kit van with all the new Nike gear in.
00:34:13 I think we had probably a bag or a box of kit.
00:34:16 That's your stuff. You need to keep all that. It was strange times.
00:34:21 I'm going off on a tangent here, but what do you make of the modern-day football kit in terms of design and quality and stuff like that?
00:34:30 I'm seeing a lot of stuff about how expensive the New England kit is.
00:34:33 I know when it comes around to the new kits being released, Sunderland fans are always very vocal about what they want and what isn't provided.
00:34:40 Obviously, you don't have any control over that as a kit man, but you do spend a lot of time with these shirts, don't you?
00:34:47 Yes, we've been involved in the process and I've been involved in the process.
00:34:51 I've seen the kits for next season. This is a bit of an excuse, I'm not going to tell you what it is.
00:34:56 I don't want to get people following up saying what you're doing, but I've seen the kits are incredible.
00:35:01 Is it similar to the ones leaked online?
00:35:04 I'm not going to say any more.
00:35:06 They'll go down really well. That's all I want to say on that.
00:35:13 We're involved in the process and we're looking at strips.
00:35:17 That's really exciting for me because I've got an eight-year-old who needs mad New East football strips.
00:35:23 The amount of strips we've got is borderline ridiculous.
00:35:27 It's something I'm really passionate about and I'm hoping to stay involved in.
00:35:31 But something I didn't realise until you went out and crazy people about.
00:35:36 You messaged me about this because I've been wanting to circulate on the message board to see what people are thinking about the kits and if anything's wrong with them.
00:35:47 That hindered me a little bit because I care what people think.
00:35:53 I'm exactly the same. It does get to you, doesn't it?
00:35:57 I'm lucky that I don't and you don't say anything bad about me.
00:36:01 The whole thing with the badges falling off, the first year initially, that was just a team in problems.
00:36:08 They changed that quickly and everyone says, "Oh, embroider the badge, embroider the badge."
00:36:13 But these strips are so light now.
00:36:15 If you put an embroidered badge on a shirt, it'll sag because it's just so heavy compared to the shirt.
00:36:23 The shirt is so light because the players want to be weighed down. People don't really think of that.
00:36:27 But I think that story needs to be told better from the club.
00:36:30 So, I think if you tell the story a little bit better about why we don't embroider badges anymore.
00:36:36 From speaking to the guys at Just Sport, I know that an embroidered badge is actually cheaper to do than what the badge that's on there at the minute.
00:36:44 If you look at the badge that's on there at the minute, it's the best they've done.
00:36:47 It is actually really, really good.
00:36:49 There's no badges falling off anymore. That was just the initial.
00:36:53 But I think people get that in their heads that, "Oh, the badges fell off in the first season, so we hate that company and we don't want to be with them."
00:37:01 But from working and dealing with the guys at Just Sport, I can't speak highly enough.
00:37:05 For them, they were a really good company to work with and there were lots of them fans working at Just Sport.
00:37:10 They obviously had the clubs in mind all the time and we'd get a lot of preferential treatment from them.
00:37:18 At times when deliveries and things are hard to get, we'd always be pushed to the front a little bit because there was a couple of Sunderland fans working there.
00:37:27 The guy who owns the company is a season ticket holder at Sunderland. That's been for a long time.
00:37:32 Obviously, you've seen the things with the Yvette and the Eretro stuff that we've done has been amazing. It's gone down really well.
00:37:38 So, all those little things from them, I really did like working with them.
00:37:42 I'm loving this tangent because kits is one of my favourite subjects and I want to ask you, what's your professional opinion?
00:37:50 What is the best way to wash a football kit? I get this all the time from friends and stuff like that,
00:37:56 "Oh, I've washed my kit and I've done it this way." Everybody has a different way of doing it and sometimes it preserves the length of the kit, sometimes it doesn't.
00:38:02 What is the best way to do it?
00:38:04 I think just on a 30 wash. Don't put it in the dryer because the heat is going to start taking some of the stuff away from it.
00:38:12 You'd have seen me in the kit room, them whites have got to be white, so I would just put a bit of the stainer on the whites, give them a little bit of a hand wash,
00:38:22 and then we'd put them on a 30 wash. I can't believe we're going that far.
00:38:28 Honestly, I've got a mate, Michael, and he must have about 100 replica kits and he's adamant that you put them in a pillowcase, turn them inside out, and that preserves the life.
00:38:37 But he's a bit of an old woman, so I reckon he's just having me on there.
00:38:41 No, but these things are important to people. You look at the price of some of the England kits now,
00:38:46 we just had a Nike shop open up in Teesside Park and I happened to let in there yesterday.
00:38:52 And looking at this dry fit Nike material, you can really feel the quality in it and you can see why it's so expensive.
00:38:59 And obviously looking at the England kit that got put out, it is really nice to do.
00:39:04 And I look at the new Adidas kits for the Euros, they're incredible, I think they're absolutely class.
00:39:09 It is nice to see some new stuff going out and different to what you get every day.
00:39:14 But I think you don't want the same over and over again. As much as people love retro, you want to refresh some new ideas.
00:39:20 Yeah, I'm really passionate. We should do something on kits and get together and do something like that.
00:39:24 No, I'd love that. That would be brilliant.
00:39:27 We'll go back to the football, because I reckon there's some people probably fuming at us for going on such a little tangent.
00:39:34 I think we left it on Phil Parkinson, but there's a takeover, Lee Johnson comes in.
00:39:39 On the subject of takeovers, because obviously I think you'll have been part of three, all very different.
00:39:45 But how, and you've touched on it a little bit, how uncertain can that make a football club?
00:39:50 Obviously, during one of the takeovers, it led to your role, you had to reapply and stuff like that.
00:39:55 But how much of an effect does it have on a football club, a takeover?
00:39:58 I think, yeah, it could be scary times. It can also be good times.
00:40:02 Cooke, and again, the guy that he is, he said, 'Look, I think we were coming, I think it was before Parkie had come in,
00:40:09 we'd been relegated the season in Goel League 1, and he said, 'I'm not sure how things are going to go.'
00:40:16 And from hearing what I've heard, it becomes really uncertain.
00:40:19 If I was you, I'd possibly try and look at something else and get your name out there, maybe line something up.
00:40:25 Because I don't want to leave you in the lurch. And that, again, just says everything about the man that he is.
00:40:29 Just giving me a heads up. I'd had a job interview up at Rangers and looked at other things.
00:40:39 So, yeah, it can be really uncertain times. And then Kirill had come in, and from the first day,
00:40:46 I'd never seen an owner in the laundry before. And Kirill had come into my office and he asked me how I was.
00:40:54 Obviously, he'd heard about Kukki and asked if I was coping, if I was managing.
00:40:59 And I think that was really refreshing to see someone in, down where the work's getting done,
00:41:05 where the real work's getting done that no one sees, and to have that.
00:41:09 And then I've built a really good relationship with Kirill over the years.
00:41:12 And I don't know if people probably know that we play five-a-side together, the staff games,
00:41:17 and that's something that's been really good and refreshing.
00:41:20 We've had five-a-sides out in Dubai and we've had them at the Beacon.
00:41:24 And I think we had one in the States in the summer in Albuquerque.
00:41:28 So, obviously, Kirill loves his football. I feel like he's really invested in the staff as well.
00:41:33 And I don't mean monetary-wise, but I mean as time speaking and listening to what the staff,
00:41:41 their own stories, and he knows a lot about me and I've gotten really well with him over the years.
00:41:46 So, Kirill's very much a visible figure at Sunderland, that he's in and around the place,
00:41:52 he's talking to people. Because I think a lot of people's impressions of Kirill is that he's off here, there and everywhere.
00:41:58 And I'm sure he is at times, but from what I've heard, he seems quite present at the academy.
00:42:03 Yeah, he is. He's got an office there and we see him and you know where he is.
00:42:07 And I think he's texted me a couple of times if he needs something.
00:42:12 And I think that's a really nice personal touch because I've previously spoken to Stuart and Ellis a couple of times.
00:42:22 But to have someone's, like the owner's number and for him to get in touch if he needs something from you.
00:42:29 Because he's got a PA, Karen, so if he needs anything, he can just go to Karen.
00:42:34 But if Kirill does want anything and he needs it, he can come and he can speak to me.
00:42:38 Because I think obviously he's built that initial relationship in the first place and coming down.
00:42:42 So he's quite personal. He's approachable and personal and yeah, he's a decent guy.
00:42:49 We'll touch on Lee Johnson quickly, a figure who I quite enjoyed at Sunderland for the most part.
00:42:55 Gets a little bit of a stick from Sunderland fans for being a little too wordy at times.
00:42:59 And he loves a catchphrase, but what was he like to work with?
00:43:03 I think that's just Lee. That's his own personal and he's not doing it for effect.
00:43:08 That's just who he is and that's what he is. So I think you've just got to take that with the character.
00:43:12 But yeah, with me, fine. I've still got a voice note and I've listened to it.
00:43:17 And from when he left, I think Lee, when he got sacked, he turned his phone off for a couple of days.
00:43:24 So obviously when a manager normally goes, he'll send a message and obviously just touch back to Jack Ross.
00:43:30 It is still known to this day that there's never been a queue of people long enough to say bye to Jack.
00:43:36 And because that was just what he was. But yeah, Lee had turned his phone off for a couple of days.
00:43:41 Didn't want to speak to anyone. And when he turned it back on, he'd sent a few voice notes around
00:43:46 and he sent me a really, really nice message. And I think it's refreshing to see that he did care.
00:43:51 He really did care. He didn't just come for the ride and come be at Sunderland.
00:43:55 He genuinely thought he was the man to get the job done. And obviously it didn't pan out.
00:44:00 But yeah, he was explosive. He was passionate. And I think probably everything that you want in a manager.
00:44:09 And again, I think people always think that they're going to be the ones to get it done for Sunderland.
00:44:14 And just for some of these managers, obviously it just didn't pan out the right way.
00:44:17 But like I say, it's fine margins. It really is. And when we got beat off Lincoln, we'd come back to the stadium.
00:44:23 And the atmosphere that day was incredible. I know we didn't get through in the playoffs that year,
00:44:28 but the atmosphere was incredible. We thought when we got our first goal, we're going to push on a year.
00:44:32 I really think if we'd have got a Wembley, we'd have got it done. But that's obviously all ifs and buts.
00:44:38 Yeah, I remember that atmosphere at the stadium against Lincoln, because I think there was only 6,000 or 8,000 fans in there.
00:44:42 It was the first one after Covid. It was incredible. It was a really good one.
00:44:47 I think Charlie Wyke had a chance as well, which if that had gone in, it could have been so much more different.
00:44:52 Lee Johnson gives way to Alex Neil, who is for all is bad press nowadays about the way he left Sunderland.
00:45:02 He's one of my favourite Sunderland managers, just because of the way he came in and lifted everything.
00:45:07 And to be honest, his post-match and his pre-match press conferences as well were always box office.
00:45:12 He seems a real straight-talking guy, sort of very different to Lee Johnson and Jack Ross maybe before him.
00:45:18 Yeah, and previously I'd had Gordon Strachan as a Scottish manager, so when he came in I was thinking,
00:45:25 'Is he going to be the same as Gordon?' Unbelievable.
00:45:30 Kept everyone on their toes, really drove everyone. I spoke previously, I don't realise how it's not worked out for him at Stoke.
00:45:40 It's strange, isn't it?
00:45:42 The amount of time and effort that he puts in. I'm not saying other managers don't do this, but he's so dedicated.
00:45:49 He was so good. I think the combination of things, of having the players and having the manager together.
00:45:57 Obviously, Lee's got to take credit because he built that team. Getting Pat Roberts and Jack Clarke out to Pritchard,
00:46:04 all these players we've got together, Corey Evans, it's just a combination of all these things that we've got together.
00:46:10 Alex really drove us and he demanded the best from everyone, even from myself.
00:46:17 I remember one day, I think it was our first day back with pre-season, and obviously I come in and he's like,
00:46:24 'Right, where's the kit?' I'm like, 'I'm just going to see what size you want.' He's like, 'No, come on, we want the kit.
00:46:28 We need to get ready, we're ready to work, let's go.' And I sort of knew from that that I had to be on my game as well.
00:46:33 I always had to make sure that Alex had everything that he needed and he just really did demand everything.
00:46:39 There was one little story that when I was packing up the boots for a game, obviously, a few of you will have to call me 'Chief',
00:46:47 but that's a term that I use to people. I call people 'Chief' just in general, I'll speak there.
00:46:53 I had James 'Chief', you all right? Pat Roberts has come through the boot room one day and he's like,
00:46:59 'Chief, have you got my boots?' I swore back at him and I was like, 'Yeah, of course I've got your effing boots.'
00:47:05 Alex Neil walked behind him and gave me that real Alex Neil eyebrow look. I was like, 'Oh, I'm in trouble.'
00:47:12 He waved me over and I'd come through the boot room and I was like, 'Gaffer, whatever, all right?'
00:47:17 He was like, 'Yeah, and why do they call you Chief?' I was like, 'Oh, it's just something that I say.'
00:47:22 He was like, 'All right, okay.' Then for the rest of the season, he called me 'Big Chief'.
00:47:25 There was an incident that had happened, I don't want to go into detail of it, but he pulled me and had a word with me
00:47:34 and said, 'Look, whatever's going on, I need to know about this so I can get ahead of it and I can sort it out.'
00:47:40 We had a little bit of a moment after the playoff final where Alex said, 'Look, do you see how you play a massive part
00:47:48 by telling me these little things that you know that's going on at the club? I can get ahead of them
00:47:52 and I can nip them or I can help if a player's having a bad time. If you know about any of these little tiny things,
00:47:59 you come and tell me.' I don't think he wanted me to snitch, but he wanted me to let him know that if there was anything
00:48:04 that he was not sure of, that I should tell him and then he can get… I think that's where having a manager
00:48:11 and having a head coach is sort of different things. Having Alex as a manager and him wanting to control these little things
00:48:17 sort of helped us as well. After the playoff final, he pulled me and said, 'Look, do you see that with your help
00:48:24 and getting rid of these little things?' It was really nice of him to come away from that part of us all celebrating
00:48:33 to see and show, 'Look, you've played a major part in this.' Let me just touch on another one from the playoff final,
00:48:40 because I don't know if a lot of people know this, I haven't spoken about this previously either, but the suit that Alex Neil was in…
00:48:46 - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. - …at Wembley, because I've seen it. Obviously, you know that I troll the message boards
00:48:51 and obviously it is nice to read the good stuff as well, but no one really knew that. I think Alex's dad had said to him
00:48:57 that if you're going to manage at Wembley, you've got to wear a suit, because it's traditional and you can't go out in a track suit.
00:49:02 He really didn't want to do that, so he's got his suit on, we've done the national anthem, we've ran inside,
00:49:07 I've got his kit ready because he wants to wear his track suit on the touchside, and Alex Neil's kicking shoes at me
00:49:13 and he's tying me and I'm passing him his kit back. It was just a little moment that only me and Alex shared
00:49:19 and me and Alex knew about, and everyone was like, 'He must have been Superman in a telephone box, getting that suit off,
00:49:25 or does he have it underneath him?' But yeah, that was really nice to play a part, because everyone was like…
00:49:31 He was in and out so quick, but there was socks and shoes getting kicked at me, and it was a nice little moment for us to have.
00:49:38 That's been one of the great Sunderland mysteries, hasn't it? How did Alex Neil get out of the suit?
00:49:44 And now we know. I think one of the good things, actually, about you leaving Sunderland is that you've been able to post
00:49:53 a few more things on social media. One of the great things, from my point of view, is that it's actually reminded us
00:49:58 of how good that play-off run was and the celebrations. You posted a great video of the celebrations in London
00:50:07 on the night of the play-off win, which just looked incredible. What was that like to be a part of?
00:50:13 Just on Alex Neil as well, watching that video, and you only get a 20-second snapshot, but it looked like he'd really
00:50:19 let that guard down as well, and he was able to enjoy it and have a good time.
00:50:24 Yeah, so he should, because obviously he's worked just as hard as anyone to get us there, and he's got to take credit as well.
00:50:29 Just going back to the Friday, my wife's come down with my son. We hadn't had the youngest yet, obviously.
00:50:37 So my wife's come down with my son, he's got his shirt on, he's Sunderland, loves it.
00:50:42 They travel down, they stay over, they come back in the next day, and obviously we get the job done.
00:50:49 We go back to the hotel that we'd stayed at the night before, and we had a DJ, the trophy was there, all the staff were there,
00:50:55 the family was there, everyone celebrating. And then there's a group of us going to a nightclub called Rain in London,
00:51:03 supposedly, I didn't know about it, but it's kind of a big deal. A lot of friends and family are there,
00:51:09 and my wife's going to take my son Arlo back to the room, and I go out with a few players, and I think it was me,
00:51:15 Corey Evans, and Corey's wife, and Leanne Bennett, who's a football admin.
00:51:21 We pull up to this nightclub, and we're outside, and we're trying to get in, we've got a table booked at Sunderland.
00:51:27 Actually, the Sunderland table's full because everyone's took friends and family with them,
00:51:32 so there's no more room on the Sunderland tables for you to get in.
00:51:36 I think Jack Clark, I was with Jack Clark and Pat Roberts as well, and we stood outside, and we're like,
00:51:40 we're literally with the team, but you can't get in. So Alex turns up with a couple of friends behind us,
00:51:47 and he's like, "I'll get yous in." I'm like, "Gaff, we can't get in, we're literally with Clarky and Pat,
00:51:51 they're played today, what makes you think you're going to get us in?"
00:51:56 Anyway, he had the pull, he got us in, so we get in, and the rest is history.
00:52:01 Yeah, that was an incredible night, it was insane, the hangover was just as bad.
00:52:06 My son ran into a table at the party, so he's got an absolute massive black eye.
00:52:11 We're going holiday two days later, and we're just hoping that Arlo's eye goes down.
00:52:16 It's standard for us though, Arlo turns up, he's running around with one of the, I think,
00:52:20 Brandi the physio's wife was there with their daughter, Jessica, and Arlo and her get on really well,
00:52:26 and they're running around messing, he runs into a table, black eye, and they're like,
00:52:30 "God, what are the chances?" But obviously we had an amazing night.
00:52:33 No, it sounds, I won't keep you too much longer, Stephen, but just wanted to talk a little bit about,
00:52:40 we haven't even really mentioned Lyndon Guccia, obviously, as I mentioned before,
00:52:44 one of your good friends in football, but I wanted to touch on this idea of the experience
00:52:50 in Sunderland's squad, or lack of now, you were around that group, the likes of Danny Bart,
00:52:55 Alex Pritchard, Lyndon Guccia, they've sort of gone now, and it's left Sunderland's squad
00:53:00 looking pretty good. What are your views on that? I know it's difficult probably not to be,
00:53:05 it's difficult to be neutral on that when you've got such a vested interest,
00:53:10 but for me it just looks like Sunderland are lacking something now.
00:53:13 Yeah, it's hard, and it's made my decision a little bit easier, it wasn't easy,
00:53:18 but it's easier to come away when the guys that have been around for a long time,
00:53:21 like Gucci, Pritch, people say there's no friends in football, blah, blah, blah,
00:53:30 but I think Gucci I'm really close to, and when Gucci had left, he's the heartbeat of the club,
00:53:36 and he's in there, and he knows exactly what it means, his family are all living,
00:53:40 his family are family-in-laws, they're all Sunderland diehards,
00:53:45 and it's him in the players' lounge, my wife gets on with him,
00:53:48 and the family just live and breathe Sunderland, and for him to go and take that away,
00:53:53 obviously Luke's there, but I'm talking about a guy who's technically a Macca d'Amico,
00:53:58 he's been here for so long, he is, and he knows exactly what it means,
00:54:03 and I think to see them sort of people and the experience, it's tough,
00:54:09 and I think that is exactly what they're lacking, and I'm hoping that the club sort of do realise that,
00:54:14 and sort of look at the model that they're calling it, and maybe, I think it's good to admit that,
00:54:21 I don't want to say that they're wrong, but you've got to sort of, right,
00:54:25 okay, we've got these young, good players, and there will come good, there's no doubt about it,
00:54:30 when you look at these players, injuries aside, if we can get that team out, the best 11, incredible,
00:54:36 but when people like Ross are leaving, I've had a long relationship with Ross Stewart,
00:54:40 still speak to him, I'm so happy for him, but it didn't work out at Sunderland,
00:54:46 as in let's give him a long-term contract, because he is the ultimate striker for me,
00:54:51 this guy will play in the Premier League, I've got no doubt about it,
00:54:54 but maybe Ross' time, he's at an age where he's got to find that next security in his life,
00:55:01 because he's maybe coming to it a bit later, but again, great guy, Ross, Gucci,
00:55:06 these players, Pritch, Danny Bath, that experience, that core, backbone of the group,
00:55:12 and I've spoken previously, Man City, we had Joe Hart, Vincent Kompany, Mika Richard,
00:55:17 Gareth Barry, James Milner, English group of lads, backbone, there's your spine in your team,
00:55:24 if you don't have that spine in your team, then I think you're really going to struggle,
00:55:27 and I see now with injuries and lack of experience,
00:55:31 why it's probably not doing as well as it did last season under Mogga.
00:55:36 Yes, I was just about to mention Modri as well, but he's gone now,
00:55:40 which is a shame, you talk about character and experience and know-how, he had it all,
00:55:45 obviously I'm sure you have views on that, but it's so unfortunate that he's gone to Birmingham City,
00:55:51 and then unfortunately had this health issue as well, so I've said it before,
00:55:55 but I wish Mogga well, in my experience, just such a nice guy.
00:56:00 Yes, great, when you get a manager, you've got to let them know that they can trust you,
00:56:08 and obviously changing managers so many times, I think Godsey would have been my 16th manager,
00:56:15 so over a 12-year period, you're changing every year, so you've got to get to the point where you're like,
00:56:21 "Right, this guy's got to trust me now", and obviously people like Jack and Sam and Lee,
00:56:27 obviously you earn their trust, and they trust you, you trust them, and you work each other out,
00:56:32 and it was getting tiring that you've got to keep repeating this,
00:56:35 and when Michael Beale had come in, I felt dumb with having to reinvent and show these managers again
00:56:45 that I'm trustworthy, I've been here for a long time,
00:56:48 and Michael had had 10 minutes with me when I told him I was leaving,
00:56:52 and he'd asked for a meeting, and to be fair, he was really good,
00:56:55 he was like, "Look, 12 years is a long time, it'll be tough for you,
00:56:59 but I think it could be maybe beneficial for you that you'll look at something new and something fresh",
00:57:05 so I think it's been a rollercoaster, I'd say, and it's time to get off it.
00:57:15 - Yeah, absolutely. What's next for you, Steve? Where do you go from here?
00:57:20 Is it a little break and then come back in somewhere?
00:57:22 - I'm having my little break now. I think initially, assistant kit manager,
00:57:28 that sort of thing was done for me, unless it'd have to be on my terms now,
00:57:33 I'm looking for a Monday to Friday, a bit more time with the kids,
00:57:37 I don't mind working weekends, but I really want to spend some time with my family
00:57:42 and all the things that I see my friends doing with their kids, taking them to the ballgames,
00:57:47 having weekends away, and hopefully I've got something coming off that'll keep me really close to the club initially.
00:57:55 I won't go into too much detail, but obviously the Instagram page, Steve is the kit man,
00:57:59 obviously you'll put the link through for that, I'm sort of pushing that.
00:58:02 Middlesbrough invited me into the Legends lounge at Burnley Slaving on Saturday,
00:58:06 that was really one of the first things that I've done,
00:58:09 and speaking out my time at Middlesbrough, four years, under Gary Southgate,
00:58:13 obviously a lot of people come up to me, it's just nice to see this side,
00:58:18 rather than getting the plays for you all the time, to see the back room sort of thing that goes on.
00:58:23 It's been really nice, and it was a bit daunting, there were 250 people to speak to,
00:58:27 and they're sort of one entertainer, and I've got a few stories in my locker
00:58:31 that I've got from my time at Sunderland and stuff, so Q&As after dinner sort of things,
00:58:37 it's been sending the message, 'Boy, I'm not delivering anything to you a little bit better, but I'll work on that!'
00:58:43 No, I'm sure that'll come. Final question to me, and thank you so much for joining us,
00:58:46 but obviously you've got this wealth of experience of football,
00:58:49 we haven't even touched upon it, maybe we'll get to it some other time,
00:58:52 but you were at Man City, the Aguero moment, working under Mancini,
00:58:56 you know, Allardyce, Southgate, Burry you've mentioned,
00:58:59 you've been at three pretty massive football clubs, you've got all of this experience,
00:59:03 does Sunderland feel to you like it's on the right path now?
00:59:07 Because that's a question I get asked a lot from Sunderland fans,
00:59:10 'Are we going in the right direction?'
00:59:12 I think it's hard, because everyone wants the quick 'yes',
00:59:17 and really I think what I'd say to the fans is just be patient with this team,
00:59:21 and support them, because with the support that our club's got,
00:59:25 I think with the 11th biggest supporter club in the UK,
00:59:30 that is something you've got to hold on to,
00:59:35 and use as our driving force of this amazing support,
00:59:43 and we've got to support them, we cannot be there looking for the negatives all the time,
00:59:48 and I feel like it's a lot of negatives, and I think you've got to flip it
00:59:53 and be positive and back these players, because they're young,
00:59:57 they need the support of the fans, and I think for the whole they do get it,
01:00:01 and I think we've just got to get behind them and the team and Dodsey,
01:00:04 and just support the lads, just really give them your all,
01:00:07 because with the support I think it's showed a couple of times,
01:00:10 this season even, with the backing of the fans,
01:00:14 I mean if it's nil-nil, just support the lads,
01:00:17 just keep on supporting them like you've been doing for a long time,
01:00:20 and I think this team will no doubt, it's too big not to be in the Premier League,
01:00:26 I have no patience, I wish we could be in the Premier League now,
01:00:32 and see us, but obviously with the FFP and stuff it's really hard,
01:00:35 because you've got to stick to these rules, you can't just throw money at it,
01:00:39 so let's be patient and see what happens,
01:00:42 I'll be watching on keenly and hoping to get a good game before the end of the season.
01:00:46 - No, brilliant, I think that's a good place to end,
01:00:49 thank you so much for joining us Steve, it's been a real good...
01:00:51 - Oh cheers, thank you.
01:00:52 - Brilliant, this podcast will be available on YouTube, Spotify, all good podcast places,
01:00:58 and yeah, thank you for Steven for joining us, brilliant podcast,
01:01:01 thanks for listening, head over to the Sunderland Echo website
01:01:04 for all of the Sunderland news during the international break,
01:01:07 and we'll catch you again before Sunderland's match against Cardiff City on Good Friday,
01:01:12 thanks for watching and listening.
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