For this week's In Conversation we sat down with Ghetts to discuss his determination to go beyond the norm in UK rap with his innovative new record.
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00:00 The system's only broken to us.
00:02 The system's working for who the system's meant to work for.
00:05 And we've been divided by race and we've been divided by religion
00:09 and we spend most of our days arguing amongst ourselves
00:13 while those who are meant to get rich are just cracking on.
00:16 Hi, I'm Fred, you're watching NME and I'm here today with Getz.
00:28 - Getz, how are you doing? - How's it going, Fred?
00:30 - Good to see you, man. - You good?
00:31 First thing I wanted to say is congratulations on the Mobo Pioneer Awards.
00:35 Thank you, Fred.
00:36 What was that moment like? Because that's a significant landmark event.
00:40 Yeah, as you said, it felt like a landmark,
00:44 it felt like a checkpoint in my career.
00:47 It felt like something inspiring to even leap off into water,
00:51 something else. So yeah, it was a moment.
00:54 And you had your parents up there as well?
00:55 Yeah, cos I feel like, it was strange, I was going to go up by myself, Fred,
01:00 and I just looked at my parents, my mum, I said, "Mum, you want to come up?"
01:05 Mum was like, "Yeah." I didn't know she was going to come up.
01:07 Yeah, you didn't realise till you turned around.
01:09 I didn't even realise, but for me it was like...
01:12 You know, it was that moment that I knew,
01:16 maybe if my mum didn't come up with me, I would regret that later in life.
01:20 - You know what I'm saying? - Yeah.
01:21 I think that's going to be something amazing to look back upon.
01:26 Especially when she's featured prominently in your music as well.
01:29 - Yes. - The last two albums,
01:31 you've had some really powerful quotes from her in there.
01:34 Yeah.
01:35 What's the experience like of getting really close family members on board
01:38 in your music and having that kind of creative legacy for you to look at?
01:43 I guess I really want to show people what's really important to me.
01:47 You know what I'm saying? Sometimes when you do music,
01:50 some people kind of look at you like you're different from them,
01:53 but we're not. We're the same.
01:56 We both kind of appreciate the same things.
01:58 We all kind of appreciate the same things in life and whatnot.
02:01 You know what I'm saying?
02:02 We're here today to obviously talk about On Purpose With Purpose,
02:06 which is an amazing project. I'm a massive fan of it.
02:09 Thank you.
02:10 One of the first things I wanted to talk about is the sequencing
02:13 and the structure of the projects, because I feel like,
02:15 like with Conflict Of Interest and with other previous projects,
02:19 it's something that comes through that's really important.
02:21 Can you talk me through why you decided to structure it the way that you did?
02:24 Oh, I wanted it to feel like a journey again.
02:28 I always wanted the music to feel like it's almost a movie.
02:32 You know what I'm saying? And give the listener,
02:35 provide the listener with a unique understanding of maybe just even
02:41 my thought processes or what's going on in my life,
02:47 but also not making it super preachy and still making it really enjoyable.
02:53 Do you know what I'm saying? For the listener.
02:55 So once again, I've got a long time collaborator and friend,
03:00 TJ Ahmadi, on the sequencing just because, not just because,
03:06 but one of the reasons is because he has a unique understanding of me
03:11 as a person that goes beyond music.
03:14 And I think that's important when we're collaborating sometimes
03:17 because sometimes we kind of work off presumptions and assumptions
03:22 of how somebody may be or sometimes it's quite far from the truth.
03:27 And the way that it's set up, you've got your two interludes within there
03:32 and then it's kind of three sections, right?
03:34 And the way I read it was that first eight tracks,
03:38 it feels like a kind of continuation of Conflict Of Interest
03:41 and then it kind of veers off in a different direction.
03:45 How do you view the relationship between the two albums?
03:48 There definitely is a relationship between the two
03:51 because I never stopped recording after Conflict Of Interest.
03:55 Literally, I was in the studio, it was at number two or whatever.
04:01 I was in the studio at the time working on new music.
04:04 So there wasn't that big breather and break
04:09 and let me get my thoughts together.
04:11 It was just literally like...
04:13 So that's why it feels like that, for sure.
04:15 And you spend a lot of your time writing in the studio, right?
04:19 Yeah, I never do any music anywhere else.
04:23 Just in the studio, I feel like it's at the purest moment for me
04:28 when I have these thoughts and I can deliver it.
04:30 Like I can't... I shouldn't say can't because the tongue's powerful
04:34 and I don't want to say can't,
04:35 but I don't do any writing at home or anything like that
04:40 because I get all the beats, I'm very involved in my production process.
04:45 So everything's made on the spot most of the time
04:48 and I'm very like, now, OK, I've got...
04:52 I want to say this right now and I need to go in.
04:54 Does that link back to the sort of Pirate Radio and Grime Days,
04:58 the kind of spontaneity of your creative process, do you think?
05:01 Maybe, I haven't looked at it like that
05:03 because my process was different at that time.
05:07 Being it that maybe not having all the money in the world for a studio
05:12 and couldn't really be too carefree with that time,
05:15 you know what I'm saying, like an hour or two or three hours,
05:18 I really had to...
05:20 I remember working during the week
05:23 and always booking Sunday as my studio day for a little while.
05:27 I think I was making Ghetto Gospel at this time
05:30 and booking the Sunday off and just having,
05:33 I think it was six hours I was doing at that time,
05:35 but I already had the tracks written.
05:37 And at that point, I would...
05:38 Because I used to write at that point,
05:40 like literally write, I don't write anymore,
05:42 but because I used to write at that point,
05:45 I would always have...
05:46 I could write anywhere, like literally in the car or whatever,
05:50 and I would always have the tracks written.
05:51 I knew even what order I wanted to do them in when I got to studio,
05:55 just to be more...
05:57 - Be efficient once you got in there. - Yeah, that's it.
05:59 Be efficient with the time.
06:01 Obviously, when you have those times in the studio,
06:04 is it very important to have the people you trust,
06:07 producers-wise and other collaborators?
06:09 Yeah, 100%, I feel like it's always a conversation of what you think
06:14 and structuring of songs and how long something should be
06:19 or if it feels right.
06:21 You know, there's all this stuff about people's attention span being lower.
06:26 And I guess when you're not a creative
06:28 and you're more on the business side,
06:30 these questions always come into play.
06:33 But for myself and the creators I work with,
06:37 we're just more like, "Does it feel right?"
06:39 That's the question that we're asking each other,
06:42 "Does it feel right?"
06:44 You know, "Does the music feel right?"
06:46 Is it eight minutes?
06:48 Did you realise it was eight minutes when you were listening to it, though?
06:52 Or did you just enjoy it?
06:54 That reminds me of in autobiography when it's like four minutes 48.
06:58 And you're like, "Shit, I've been listening to it for this long."
07:00 You know what I'm saying?
07:02 But I guess if it's enjoyable, it's right.
07:05 If it feels long, if it feels like eight minutes
07:07 and you feel like, "This is just going on, I want to fool with it,"
07:10 then it's probably not right.
07:12 When it comes to building cohesive projects like that
07:15 and taking time over the individual tracks,
07:18 there aren't many rappers in the UK that care so much about it
07:22 and have cared for your whole career, pretty much.
07:25 It's always been important to you, building projects and bodies of work.
07:29 Where do you think that comes from?
07:31 Listening to great projects before I got started in my own career.
07:37 I remember the album was the biggest thing at a certain time
07:43 before the single era's kind of just taken over.
07:47 So it was all about building a cohesive body of work
07:50 that displayed different emotions and different sides to the individual.
07:55 That was a pretty big thing when I was coming up.
07:58 Tracks that just flowed beautifully into each other,
08:01 but was different conceptually and felt different,
08:05 but it flowed well.
08:08 An example of that would be like a Dr. Dre, The Chronic.
08:13 Like classics, or even one that was more recent times,
08:18 but a recent classic would be like a 50 Cent, Get Rich or Die Tryin',
08:23 or a Jay-Z Blueprint, or Nas, Godson.
08:27 You know what I'm saying? These classic albums, or stillmatic or illmatic,
08:33 but yeah, these is what we were studying.
08:37 And were there any particular ones, other than the ones you've just mentioned,
08:42 that you were listening to when you were creating this album that were quite influential?
08:45 Not at that point as it was earlier, but one person, sonically,
08:52 it's like Kanye West, sonically.
08:55 Being as fearless in terms of not trying to recreate conflict of interest,
09:00 but doing something that was different and told a different story,
09:04 and was sonically different from conflict of interest.
09:07 Because when you feel like you've got something right,
09:10 and the masses identify with it, it's easy to be in the realm of,
09:15 "Let's do something like that, it worked, it's not broken."
09:18 But I think creatively that's a dangerous place to be in.
09:21 Do you know what I'm saying?
09:23 So for me it was about just sonically exploring again.
09:28 Yeah, because if you're just trying to replicate it, and you don't live up to it,
09:31 the best you can do is live up to it, really.
09:33 This is what I'm saying.
09:34 And so you took a lot of influence from,
09:37 I mean, sounds from across the African diaspora, like West African music,
09:41 there's a little bit of Amapiano, there's some dancehall influences as well.
09:46 Were there any particular artists or people within your life
09:50 that influenced going down that route?
09:52 No, it was just more an exploration of what I've been influenced by most of my life.
10:01 Giving a well-rounded take of what I've been influenced by a lot in my life,
10:07 you know what I'm saying?
10:09 And giving my take on it, more so.
10:12 Yeah, and I think that it adds a lightness to the album,
10:15 in that kind of midsection that it really needs as well.
10:18 Yeah, 100%.
10:20 You've dropped probably the two deepest tracks on the album,
10:23 and the two most powerful, emotive tracks.
10:27 Could you tell me a little bit about, first of all, Jonah's Safety,
10:30 I'd love to hear about the story behind that track.
10:33 There was a lot of things that influenced Jonah's Safety.
10:36 The beat being the first.
10:38 My recent, long-time collaborator and friend, again,
10:43 he was in one of the rooms here,
10:44 and I was just going from room to room one day.
10:47 He's like, "I've got a loop for you that I've just been cooking,
10:50 "I was like, play it."
10:51 Within the first minute, I had the first two lines,
10:55 I don't know why that just came,
10:57 and I was like, "Within that two lines is a powerful concept
11:01 "that needs further research, I'm going to leave it right there."
11:05 I just left it.
11:06 And then I started looking into where I would go with this,
11:12 because I wanted to be respectful,
11:14 because it's hard, being a man,
11:17 to have a full-rounded view of what a woman might go through,
11:22 post-natal depression.
11:24 Still couldn't, really, you know what I'm saying?
11:27 I'm probably just scratching the surface, as a male,
11:31 as much as a male could understand.
11:34 Yeah, Mrs being a social worker as well,
11:37 had some form of factual information
11:45 that I could reach for right there, you know what I'm saying?
11:48 When I was asking questions, and obviously her being a woman as well,
11:52 he doubled up on the information.
11:54 And then, yeah, I revisited it again.
11:59 I never had a hook for ages,
12:01 and I knew I wanted Pit Millit on the song,
12:04 and Pit Millit came down,
12:06 and she had something, but it was more like a beautiful bridge.
12:13 And I was just sitting there, and I was just like, "Rucka burpee,"
12:17 and then it just came to me straight away,
12:20 and then I gave it to Pip, and Pip just sung it beautifully.
12:22 And that's how that really came about.
12:25 And then with the second verse,
12:27 I thought it would be clever to kind of tie into,
12:30 like, with a twist at the end of the story,
12:33 because when I write stories, I always want them to feel like movies.
12:35 So when you as a listener, you can see it,
12:39 you know what I'm saying?
12:40 You take you scene by scene.
12:43 With the twists and turns that you might not even see coming,
12:46 I thought it would be crazy to even just, like,
12:48 go overseas in the second verse,
12:50 and where women can't have abortions in certain states,
12:55 but what if it's from this perspective or something?
12:58 And then, yeah, so that's how I wrote that.
13:00 - Yeah, it's such a powerful song.
13:04 Like, I had goosebumps the first time I listened to it,
13:06 and Pit Millit adds that kind of pain in her voice.
13:09 - 100%, she's right there.
13:10 Right there.
13:12 Yeah, agreed.
13:12 - It's part of a broader thing across the album
13:16 of kind of exploring social and political issues
13:19 in a deeper way than I think you ever have done on previous albums.
13:22 - Yeah, yeah.
13:23 I definitely wanted to push my writing to a new place
13:27 that I haven't been before,
13:28 or even, like, I was just looking at rap itself
13:32 and feeling like for the last few years,
13:36 I could be wrong,
13:39 but from what I've heard, it's been in a very safe space,
13:42 like in terms of, like,
13:45 "Okay, this is cool.
13:46 This is what we're going to rap about.
13:47 This works."
13:48 Like, I wanted to be more fearless than that works.
13:53 Let's talk about something real,
13:54 but without making it sound super preachy or boring,
13:59 but more relatable than anything.
14:01 Let's touch on something that's really real and authentic.
14:05 - Yeah, that's a...
14:07 And it's a tough balance to strike without being preachy.
14:11 But I think, again, "Double Standards,"
14:13 another track where you do that really well,
14:15 especially considering the range of different issues
14:18 and ideas that you touch on in that.
14:20 One particular bit that I find interesting
14:25 is talking about the line about Steve Jobs
14:28 not letting his children use an iPad.
14:30 - I saw that somewhere, I think.
14:31 - Yeah.
14:32 - Yeah, and that actually proper struck me.
14:35 - It's kind of a comic line
14:37 because you say, "My kids think I'm bad."
14:39 - Yeah.
14:39 - But it also captures the idea
14:42 that you're trying to raise children
14:44 in a really difficult, unjust world.
14:46 And I wonder, how do you try and prepare them for that world?
14:50 - Ah, it's crazy, bro, because I'm still learning.
14:54 Like, I'm still fairly new at this parenting thing.
15:00 And I feel like I try and just have,
15:02 especially with my 11-year-old,
15:04 I just try and have, I try and conversate with her
15:07 and not tell her stuff.
15:09 I try and have conversations
15:11 instead of being like, "Duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh."
15:13 I like to tell her why I think this is, why,
15:18 and see what she thinks about this.
15:20 And then we conversate
15:22 because I just feel like children are much brighter
15:26 than we think they are.
15:27 Do you know what I'm saying?
15:28 Much more alert than they think they are.
15:30 Their brains are like sponges, way more than ours are.
15:34 You know what I'm saying?
15:34 And they can take in different things.
15:37 - And in terms of the political aspects of it,
15:41 do you feel like that's something
15:42 you've become more comfortable talking about
15:44 than you used to?
15:46 - I just feel like I talk about it in more depth
15:48 and where I might have touched on lines and places,
15:53 whether that's in Ghetto Gospel when I was 21,
15:57 talking about trapped in the system.
15:59 But that was from a perspective
16:00 that people would expect from a young boy
16:06 coming from where I'm coming from
16:08 and being incarcerated at a certain time or whatever.
16:12 I kind of think people would expect that.
16:14 Maybe not in that way,
16:16 maybe more like a fuck the system way.
16:20 But still, I don't think it was,
16:21 it was out there for the time,
16:23 but not like how I'm packaging it now.
16:25 - And a way that that crossed into,
16:29 your life outside of music is,
16:31 you donated the video budget for Laps
16:34 to your local athletics centre.
16:36 First of all, what's the significance of that place to you?
16:40 But also, how have you seen Newham change
16:42 in the years since you were growing up there?
16:45 - Nah, Newham's changed a lot.
16:46 It's like, apart from aesthetically,
16:48 the vibes even just changed.
16:51 You know what I'm saying?
16:52 It's a much darker place when I was growing up there.
16:57 And the significance that Beagles has is that,
17:01 I didn't even know at the time.
17:03 It's not until my mum watched the news.
17:04 My mum was like, "I ran for them as well."
17:08 - Oh, really? - "That's amazing.
17:09 "You didn't even know that."
17:10 So that's crazy, like mum ran for them.
17:12 But other than that,
17:13 that was on my actual road growing up.
17:16 The first location was on my road.
17:19 - Is like austerity and cuts that have taken place
17:21 in that area, is that something
17:23 that you're very passionate about?
17:24 - Passionate might be a strong word,
17:27 if I'm being super honest with you.
17:30 But I'm just more like, if I'm in a position to help,
17:33 and I can, I wanna help.
17:34 But I just feel like we all need to have this attitude.
17:37 I was just saying in one of the interviews earlier,
17:39 the system's only broken to us.
17:41 The system's working for who the system's meant to work for.
17:45 And by us, I don't even mean race.
17:47 I said that earlier.
17:47 I don't mean race, but we are poor people.
17:51 And the system doesn't favour us.
17:54 And we've been divided by race,
17:56 and we've been divided by religion.
17:58 And we spend most of our days arguing amongst ourselves
18:01 while those who are meant to get rich are just cracking on.
18:05 And that's just the honest truth.
18:08 And my thing is now, just like, let's help ourselves.
18:13 That's just it.
18:14 Like, let's just help ourselves.
18:16 I'm like tired of crying about the system,
18:19 and the highest this and the highest that.
18:22 It's just working just fine for who it's meant to work fine for.
18:25 It's just not us, unfortunately.
18:27 But you've got yourself to a position where your voice
18:30 is a really important and powerful mechanism.
18:33 Exactly.
18:34 And that's why I'm acknowledging that sometimes,
18:37 I'm gonna say some stuff.
18:38 You've spoken before about the strangeness of kind of
18:44 only gaining wider appreciation for your music,
18:48 maybe 15, 16 years into your career.
18:50 Yeah.
18:51 What are the benefits of that weight?
18:53 It almost becomes like the saying,
18:55 the cream will always rise to the top.
18:57 My career is kind of testament to that.
18:59 Or the power of consistency is testament to that also.
19:05 And I just feel like, well, maybe,
19:07 well, maybe I was just a little bit ahead at a time.
19:10 Maybe, maybe I was just a little bit ahead,
19:13 and people just needed time.
19:15 You know what I'm saying?
19:16 And that's fine.
19:17 Because everything is as it should be.
19:20 Everything will be how it's meant to be.
19:22 And over that time,
19:23 one thing that I think really marked you out as an artist
19:27 is your use of your voice as an instrument.
19:30 Ah, I like that you said that.
19:32 That's something that really comes through to me
19:35 in a lot of your work.
19:36 And I'd love to know where that first came from,
19:40 where you first recognized that ability to kind of
19:43 change up the pitch, the tone, the delivery,
19:45 and the speed and everything.
19:46 And how you worked on that skill.
19:48 It was from studying a lot of great singers and instrumenters.
19:52 And just looking at my tool and seeing how I could push it.
19:59 And like you said, using it as an instrument,
20:01 because it is an instrument.
20:04 Just like a singer would be able to change key.
20:08 Like, why can't I do that?
20:11 And really have studio sessions where I'm pushing myself.
20:15 But I'll do a verse a hundred times.
20:17 So many people that have worked with me have witnessed this.
20:20 I'm not doing it a hundred times because it's not good.
20:23 I'm doing it a hundred times because within that verse,
20:26 there's about a thousand ways I could say this
20:29 that the listener would appreciate maybe more
20:32 than this way that I've just said it.
20:33 My tone kind of changed.
20:35 It's like, I don't know what happened.
20:36 So I'm just kind of working with my new tone
20:41 and going through the gears.
20:42 I feel like I'm going to find a new version of Ghetto
20:46 at some point in terms of like the rage,
20:49 but where it sounds like beautifully, sonically almost.
20:53 That's how I kind of hear it in my head.
20:54 That's the only way I can explain it.
20:56 But I'm still just trying to work it out
20:58 where I think is as close as I got there on this album
21:03 in terms of making it feel like it's got that energy,
21:06 but still sonically pleasing on the air,
21:08 but still giving you the energy.
21:10 It's definitely toned down in conflict of interest,
21:12 but it's still there in a more recognizable way.
21:15 Whereas like now it's, yeah, I think you sing calmer,
21:19 more reflective and I suppose that matches
21:20 the lyrical manner of the subject.
21:21 Yeah, yeah, the content as well.
21:23 And you know what, it's weird
21:24 because I'm trying to find a balance
21:26 'cause what used to really irritate me
21:28 is like I used to have all this sick wordplay
21:31 and words and all these things I was doing
21:34 and people like kind of refer to me as the energy guy.
21:38 That used to make me sick.
21:39 (laughing)
21:42 That used to really bother me.
21:43 I used to think, why you not hearing what I'm saying?
21:47 - Yeah.
21:47 - Like, you know what I'm saying?
21:49 And then I realized, okay, there's a way to do that
21:53 and there's a when to do it and a how to do it also.
21:55 You know what I'm saying?
21:56 - Yeah, I mean, that's especially surprising
21:59 given that the movement was all about the lyrics.
22:03 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
22:03 - When you were doing that, that was all about,
22:06 you know, we're gonna do longer verses.
22:07 We're gonna do more wordplay.
22:09 - Yeah, wicked.
22:10 Yeah, it's amazing that you even know that.
22:12 But some people are surface listeners, Fred.
22:15 And do you know what I'm saying?
22:16 It's not their fault.
22:17 Like if the first time you hear, I don't know,
22:21 for someone that didn't know Geto,
22:25 for like a Geto gospel,
22:27 and then you hear "Don't Foe Me" or something like that,
22:30 you know, you just think that's who that person is.
22:32 - Yeah.
22:32 - And you've not dwelled deeper into their catalog.
22:35 Do you just think that's it?
22:36 You know what I'm saying?
22:37 That's why singles are a tricky thing.
22:40 Dangerous almost.
22:41 Do you know what I'm saying?
22:42 Because most of the time, people are trying to make singles.
22:45 Well, not so much now because of the streaming era,
22:48 but well, I guess they might make a single,
22:51 try and make a single to fit in the biggest playlists
22:54 on the streaming platforms, but it might not be them.
22:58 And the tune goes mad and then, you know what I'm saying?
23:02 - And then people's expectations are out of whack.
23:04 - It's so tricky.
23:05 It's such a tricky thing, you know?
23:07 And that's why it's just, you just have to be yourself
23:09 and not give a fuck.
23:10 And it's so sweet, to be fair.
23:12 - Before we wrap up, I want to talk about the UK tour
23:15 that's coming up.
23:16 - Yeah.
23:16 - So you've got Birmingham, Manchester,
23:17 and then two London dates.
23:18 - Yeah.
23:19 - How are you feeling about that?
23:20 - Yeah, do you know what's crazy?
23:22 Because I've been just taking every day at a time,
23:24 if I'm being honest with you, Fred,
23:26 I'm just getting around to thinking about that now
23:29 and putting together a show in my head.
23:34 And then I'm going to get with my brother
23:36 and we're going to make it amazing.
23:39 But we've got big shoes to fill,
23:42 because I'm not going to lie,
23:43 Roundhouse on the last tour was just like,
23:47 mind-blowing, you know what I'm saying?
23:50 But we're going to do it.
23:52 Definitely, it's going to be amazing.
23:55 I know that because the time that we're going to put into it
23:58 and just making sure we get the journey right in the show,
24:03 how we got the journey right with the album,
24:06 just getting that feeling right at the show, you know?
24:09 - And is that the kind of goal,
24:12 to translate the album into a live format as much as possible?
24:15 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course.
24:17 And it's very much different
24:19 when you're approaching a show.
24:20 I don't even know what route we're going to go,
24:22 but I do know when we get to the bottom of it.
24:24 - I'm excited to see what you've got up your sleeve.
24:28 - Thank you, Fred. Thank you, bro.
24:30 - One final thing I want to ask is,
24:33 have you forgiven NME for not including
24:36 UMP Money's beef on the list?
24:38 - Yeah, I don't really hold on to things.
24:41 And I wasn't really...
24:43 I met the young lady that done the article.
24:46 - Oh, really?
24:47 - At the Mobile the other day.
24:48 - Was that Sophie?
24:49 - I think so, yeah.
24:51 Nice young lady, man.
24:53 We actually, we proper spoke.
24:54 Yeah, I'm not someone that just...
24:57 But I'll just use it for content.
24:58 (laughing)
24:59 Because I think it's relatable.
25:01 - Oh, that was Kyan, actually, I think.
25:02 - Yeah, because I think it's super relatable.
25:05 Like that people, there's people that will feel that way
25:09 and I should bring it to everyone's attention.
25:11 (laughing)
25:11 So it doesn't happen again.
25:13 Anything like that.
25:13 You know what I'm saying?
25:14 - Yeah, love it.
25:15 - Yeah.
25:15 - Nice one.
25:16 Well, thank you so much for your time.
25:17 - No problem, man.
25:18 - It's been a pleasure.
25:19 - I had to go and pour water down there, didn't I?
25:20 (upbeat music)
25:22 (ding)