Aleteia interviews His Beatitude, Sviatoslav Shevchuck, Primate of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Aleteia reporter John Burger conducts the interview.
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00:00 So, your beatitude, what does Ukraine look like now compared to two years ago?
00:13 Well, Ukraine is a wounded country.
00:20 We have some territory occupied by Russians, but Ukraine is a country with strife, trying
00:33 to first of all liberate the occupied territories, trying to bring hope to the people, trying
00:46 to overcome the pain of those wounds which were received.
00:53 But also many cities and villages in Ukraine were destroyed, especially in the southern
01:03 and the eastern part of Ukraine.
01:09 Six millions of Ukrainians left Ukraine.
01:15 Especially women and children, the majority of them are staying in Europe, neighboring
01:22 countries with Ukraine.
01:26 But there are less Ukrainians today than there were two years ago.
01:36 It is even difficult to calculate how many people live today in our country.
01:43 There are more or less around 30 millions of Ukrainians who are living today in Ukraine.
01:56 So basically, those are the few differences.
02:03 How do you see the defense of Ukraine going?
02:07 How is your level of confidence?
02:09 Do you feel that Ukraine will win in the end because there's been so much talk with the
02:16 delay in military aid from the West and the fact that the Ukrainian military is having
02:26 such a hard time with shortages of ammunition?
02:31 How has your attitude changed since the beginning of this invasion, the major invasion?
02:36 Well, in the beginning, we were really shocked because of this invasion.
02:43 Nobody was prepared.
02:47 Today we are tired, but we are not discouraged.
02:52 We are wounded, but we will prevail because we have no choice.
02:58 For us, it is a matter of existence.
03:02 And unanimously, people of Ukraine do understand that there's no way how we can build our future,
03:11 how we can survive as a nation, only to defend ourselves.
03:18 And this is the most important feeling.
03:24 Of course, the pain of the wounds caused by war are growing.
03:34 We do need the worldwide support in order to be able to prevail.
03:39 But the resilience of Ukrainian people is amazing.
03:46 In those two years, we really scarred ourselves a lot.
03:53 We found how many heroes we do have as a nation.
04:01 And those soldiers who died because of the freedom and liberty of our country, so many
04:14 people who gave up not only their lives, but all their belongings.
04:23 That is something very, very new and powerful.
04:27 We remember in the Western Ukraine, those outstanding efforts for freedom and independence.
04:36 But the rest of Ukraine, especially the Central Ukraine, Northern Ukraine, Eastern Ukraine,
04:44 Southern Ukraine, for many centuries considered Russians to be our brethren, our neighbors.
04:56 But today, this new society was born.
05:04 The new national consciousness that we are an independent country and independent nation.
05:12 We are different.
05:17 We are rediscovering the millennium of our statehood.
05:23 We are rediscovering the importance to speak Ukrainian, the importance to preserve our
05:34 cultural identity.
05:37 Many Ukrainians are rediscovering that we are Christians as a nation.
05:43 And to believe in God means to have a special vitality, which gives us a special resilience
05:52 in this situation.
05:55 So this new manifestation of the Ukrainian spirit, which is happening right now among
06:02 us.
06:07 In what ways have the events of the past two years affected you, your beatitude, your personal
06:13 life, your spiritual life?
06:15 You have spoken a lot about the need to heal the wounds of war.
06:19 Do you yourself feel wounded in any way from this experience?
06:24 How are you personally and how do you take care of yourself?
06:27 Well, I am wounded.
06:31 Any time that Russian missiles are flying over my house, my first reaction is, "Over
06:41 activity."
06:42 I'm getting very active, you know, because the intensity of my life increased a lot.
06:51 I never had an easy life as the head of the church, even before the Russian invasion.
06:57 But when the war started, my activity increased maybe 10 times.
07:05 So I always try to give up myself for my people.
07:17 Being with them, especially in those dangerous situations, I remember those first months
07:23 of the war when we practically were surrounded here in Kiev.
07:31 I'm trying to inspire my people, but my question always was, "Lord, where are you in these
07:43 circumstances?"
07:44 I was trying to find the signs of God's presence among us, to inspire myself by finding Him.
07:58 And then, as a bishop, as a believer, to show the way to God's presence among us, to the
08:07 others.
08:09 That is what my life looks like today.
08:12 Also, I'm moving, I'm visiting.
08:17 It is not only to be able to sit in your house and to pray.
08:24 No.
08:25 You have to be a very, very flexible and very dynamic person.
08:31 You have to be everywhere, because people are expecting to visit Him.
08:35 And I can witness how important the very presence of the priests and of the bishops among the
08:43 suffering people is.
08:46 I would call this the sacrament of presence.
08:51 Even if you cannot do too much, you cannot even explain why it's happening today, right
09:00 now, right for me, for those people.
09:06 Even if you have empty hands, but it is important to be there, to be present.
09:16 And this encounter reveals something which we do bring inside of our hearts.
09:25 It is interesting, but especially in the feast of presentation of our Lord in the temple,
09:33 when Saint Simeon says to Virgin Mary, "The sword will go inside of your heart."
09:44 So the deepest insight of many hearts could be revealed.
09:51 If you are experiencing your pain, so very deep intentions of your heart are enlightened
09:58 and are going out.
10:02 When there is a war, sudden danger, all kinds of masks are falling down.
10:11 Many people reveal their authentic face, their authentic personal identity, hidden intentions
10:21 of their heart.
10:24 And I can witness that it's happening.
10:28 Another thing which I really experienced is the power of the Word.
10:36 Because living in a midst of a special culture of noise, too much information which falls
10:46 on you each day, we have missed the feeling of the importance, the power of the Word.
11:00 Word is not the simple vehicle of message and information.
11:08 Word is not a simple noise which helps me to communicate.
11:14 Word is a power.
11:17 In the Holy Scriptures, we are rediscovering that Word is a creative power of God.
11:27 With His Word, God created the world.
11:33 But the Word is also something which makes us humans similar to our God, the Creator.
11:43 It is why very often we find in different books of the Bible the expression that the
11:52 Word is something which creates new situations.
12:00 Saint Jacob is saying that in the end of human history, we have to give an answer, we have
12:10 to respond to each word which went out of our mouth.
12:18 Because if I'm cursing, even if I would close my mouth, that curse as an evil power will
12:26 destroy again, will continue to destroy.
12:29 A curse as a destruction, then the blessing as the power of good which heals, which elevates
12:41 the spirit, brings hope.
12:45 And if you are a preacher, if you bring the Word of God, you can be witnessing how this
12:57 power works out.
13:00 And well, in the midst of war, what does it mean to be a bishop?
13:08 In the midst of war, to be a messenger, a bearer of the God's Word, the Word of Gospel.
13:17 And I am witnessing the outstanding power of God's Word, which heals, creates new situations,
13:31 enlightens new perspectives, helps people to find God's presence in their life, to increase
13:40 their resilience, to inspire them.
13:45 But also, to be a bishop means to bring God's grace, the power of the Holy Spirit, and celebrate
13:58 sacraments.
14:01 Without the sacrament of Eucharist, and without the sacrament of penance, the sacrament of
14:06 reconciliation, we would not survive.
14:11 And there is some sort of conversion in Ukraine, asking the meaning of our suffering, which
14:19 we can rediscover hearing to God's Word, the Word of the Holy Scripture, of the Holy Gospel.
14:30 But also, there is a conversion.
14:33 So many people, because they are seeking the sacraments of the Church.
14:39 So many baptisms of the people who never went to the Church.
14:46 So many confessions, very touching confessions, which really converted the life of the people.
14:55 And also, maybe the last one, we are trying to foster a new way of pastoral care.
15:06 You know, maybe in the West, the biggest enemy of the Christian heart and soul is comfort,
15:15 luxury, pleasure, and how to withstand this consumeristic culture.
15:24 That is a big challenge.
15:27 But in Ukraine, we are facing a different challenge.
15:31 We are living in the midst of adversities, pain, tragedy, constant danger of death.
15:43 And I would call this the pastoral service in the midst of grief and sorrow.
15:56 Pastoral care of people who are suffering, who are crying, who are in the midst of sorrow.
16:05 It is also not an easy dimension or kind of pastoral care.
16:15 Because very often, you cannot say nothing.
16:18 You can only be present, cry with those people, and share their pain.
16:25 That pain affects you.
16:28 Because sharing brings on you.
16:32 You are bringing in your heart their pain.
16:36 And you have to be careful what you will be doing with this too much pain in your heart.
16:44 This pain, in a certain way, can contaminate you.
16:50 And you have to pray.
16:53 This is how we are rediscovering in the midst of the pastoral way to accompany the sorrow,
17:03 the importance of prayer.
17:07 Because prayer is not a simple ritual, not a simple ceremony.
17:14 Prayer is a power which goes through your heart.
17:23 Prayer is communion with God.
17:28 Prayer is something which transforms you and the reality around you.
17:36 And we are witnessing how people are praying when bombs are falling on your head.
17:45 It is interesting because many different psychologists are also trying to study such a situation,
17:52 how people can live and overcome the grief and sorrow.
17:58 And many people would say, "Okay, it is normal that during the shelling of Russian missiles,
18:05 people will be hiding in the bunkers, in the underground shelters, and they will be afraid."
18:18 But in the midst of this fear depends what the people are doing.
18:26 If they are simply trembling, that fear can destroy them.
18:33 Worse than even the Russian missile, because the missile can go away and hit another city.
18:42 But your fear can destroy yourself.
18:46 But if in the midst of this fear you are singing, especially you are praying,
18:54 you will be able to transform your fear into a special energy,
19:01 which will give you a possibility to survive.
19:04 Maybe what I'm talking to you about is my personal experience of the wounded person
19:09 who has tried to overcome his own fear to find God in the midst of the pain, adversity, grief and sorrow.
19:18 But that is our spiritual treasure, which we are gathering, collecting right now as people of faith.
19:32 And I can testify that the hope comes only as a consequence of our faith.
19:44 Only who believe in God have hope.
19:50 Hope is not a simple illusion or expectation.
19:54 Hope is not a simple sentiment.
19:57 Hope is a theological virtue, which comes out from the faith.
20:04 And hope grows and can be fulfilled in the third important Christian virtue, which is love.
20:20 Hope always brings to love.
20:25 And love is the biggest power which can transform and heal your wounds.
20:33 Perhaps if you will only collect the pain, wounds, personal and the other in your heart,
20:40 with no transformation of this energy into the good deeds of love, charity, solidarity,
20:51 this energy will blow up inside of you.
20:57 But if even this psychological trauma will transform in positive activity, helping the others, you will help yourself.
21:10 A moment ago, you mentioned reconciliation.
21:13 And this past Sunday in churches of the Byzantine tradition, we had Forgiveness Sunday on the eve of Great Lent.
21:20 And people faced each other in church and said, "I forgive you."
21:26 It's often said that forgiveness is a vital part of healing.
21:32 And you have stressed this need for healing the wounds of war so much.
21:37 There are so many people in Ukraine who have something to forgive.
21:42 I mean, women have been raped and children have been snatched up and taken away for re-education and all kinds of atrocities throughout the war.
21:56 Do you see forgiveness coming into play eventually in the healing process as hopefully, God willing, the war ends?
22:08 People will need to face these hurts, these offenses.
22:16 What might that be like?
22:22 Well, I learned a lot about the reconciliation amidst of this experience.
22:28 So first of all, myself and the people of Ukraine understood that reconciliation, first of all, comes from your personal reconciliation with God.
22:45 And forgiveness can be only shared.
22:51 So I forgive you not because I'm so brave, I'm so good.
22:57 No, because I forgive you because I was forgiven before.
23:03 So in order to be able to forgive, you have to experience the forgiveness.
23:10 So it is why Apostle Paul considered himself to be a messenger of the reconciliation.
23:24 And he started with a call to be reconciled with God.
23:31 So that is his message that he was bringing as a first and very fundamental one to those to whom he was preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.
23:44 Beloved, please be reconciled with God.
23:49 So this is a vertical dimension of the reconciliation.
23:55 If I'm reconciled, so I can forgive.
24:00 Not in the opposite way.
24:06 The second very important truth about the reconciliation and forgiveness is that we have to realize that the reconciliation,
24:21 which we are talking right now, especially in the midst of war, is not the reconciliation of our ideas, of our way of thinking.
24:33 We are not reconciled when we will think in the same way.
24:41 We do not simply coordinate our way of understanding the reality.
24:50 This is not the reconciliation.
24:54 Because we can sign a peace agreement, we can more or less reconcile our ideas about how we will live in the future.
25:06 But that will be the simple reconciliation of our mental categories.
25:16 The reconciliation and forgiveness we are talking about is the reconciliation of the hearts.
25:25 The reconciliation of the human persons, the reestablishment and healing of the human relationships.
25:38 That is not an easy process.
25:41 You can agree on some principles.
25:46 Perhaps I can agree, my father passed away.
25:52 He's not right now beside me.
25:55 But to accept this, and to accept there's no way to reestablish with him my personal relationship today as it was before.
26:11 We have to go through this process of acceptance.
26:19 So the reconciliation between the people as a healing of our relationships is connected to overcoming the war trauma,
26:33 which probably will mark us for decades in the future.
26:40 And talking about the reconciliation and forgiveness between the nations, it's a long, long process of healing.
26:52 The process of frank, open dialogue of truth, the process of rejection of certain ways of human behavior.
27:11 So it is why we have to investigate the war crimes.
27:19 And we as two nations, I mean Russians and Ukrainians, which will be neighbors for the future,
27:28 because this is our geographical environment, which God wants us to live in, even in the future.
27:37 So we have to reject a very specific way to establish, wrong way to establish the relationships between our nations.
27:52 We have to process and condemn such a special way of behavior.
28:06 Then we have to pay justice to the victims. We have to repair the damage we have done for each other.
28:18 Only after we can speak about the agreement of our ideas, how we will cooperate in the future.
28:29 And only then, as a fruit of healing, the restoration, we can speak about an authentic forgiveness.
28:40 So that is a process of healing of human hearts.
28:47 We cannot push on it, but we have to pray, we have to work hard.
28:54 And I think even the very notion of forgiveness and reconciliation is something deeply and authentically Christian.
29:05 So we as a Christian, we cannot miss this important message of the Saint Apostle Paul,
29:13 to be a people of peace and reconciliation with God and with our neighbors.
29:24 Yesterday, you spoke at a press conference sponsored by Aid to the Church in Need,
29:32 and you answered a question about the recent interview that Tucker Carlson conducted with Vladimir Putin.
29:39 You said that you actually hadn't seen the interview and that you didn't really have the time for it.
29:46 You would rather spend time listening to people affected by the war rather than listening to a crazy man.
29:54 But I'd like to hear your views on some of the positions that Putin expressed,
29:59 since Tucker Carlson has a significant following and influence in the U.S.,
30:06 and there is a sizable percentage of voters who are opposed to further funding of Ukraine and who are sympathetic with Putin.
30:15 Some commentators I read said that Putin expressed views in this particular interview that he has expressed many times in the past.
30:24 So I'm sure you're familiar with his arguments.
30:28 But for example, could you respond to perhaps the following three points that he made?
30:34 And I'll take them one by one.
30:36 First of all, he said certain lands in eastern and southern Ukraine were historically Russian lands,
30:43 and Russia has a right to reclaim them.
30:46 Well, first of all, in those two years of the deadly war, we developed our own way how to protect ourselves,
30:56 our hearts and minds against Russian propaganda.
30:59 Because that propaganda destroys you.
31:05 And it is how we will take a special distance from any message or any interview which will go from the main creator of this propaganda, Mr. Putin.
31:25 And that is simply our way how to protect our integrity.
31:32 Because war in Ukraine started not with tanks, missiles and bullets, but war starting with a lie.
31:42 Lie and distortion, not only of the history, but even the present time, the distortion of the future.
31:55 So, of course, the first point of the Russian propaganda is to deny the very existence of the Ukrainian nation.
32:07 So, why they will not have any kind of dialogue with the Ukrainian state as a subject of the international law?
32:21 Because they deny the existence of the Ukrainian nation.
32:26 For them, Ukraine is territory, not a people, not a state, not a certain community with the historical background.
32:43 For them, it's a territory.
32:45 So, it is why talking about Ukraine, he started to talk about the territory.
32:52 But in the same way, China can claim the territory of Russia.
32:59 The same way Ukraine can claim the northern part of the territory of today's Russia, saying, "Okay, that was the kingdom of Kiev, the Kievan Rus',
33:11 which in that century was present in the specific territory."
33:21 So, to use the distort historical arguments to say that we do have a right to eliminate a people who live today in this territory is a crime.
33:39 And that's as you mentioned yesterday in the press conference that in places like Bucha,
33:48 they had lists of people who were artists and were promoting the idea of a Ukrainian nation.
33:55 And they were like number one targets to try to...
33:59 Yes, well, you know, this is not a moment to present the authentic version of the past, how we as Ukrainians view our history.
34:15 But what he's saying about the historical territories in Russian pretensions in Ukraine is a simple lie.
34:25 Secondly, he argued that the United States and the West should stop supporting Ukraine militarily and enter into negotiations with Russia over ending the conflict.
34:39 Yeah, because for Russia, ending the conflicts means total destruction of Ukraine.
34:49 The goal of this invasion was denazification and demilitarization, which means ethnical cleansing Ukrainian territory without Ukrainian people,
35:09 without Ukrainian state, without those who will be able to defend their life.
35:21 So, it is why he wants that Ukrainians will be or exiled or killed, simply disappear as a nation.
35:35 So, they will be able to end the war, existential war, total war, genocidal war, neocolonial war.
35:51 Of course, they in this way confess that right now they cannot achieve their goals.
35:59 Because Ukrainians are resisting, because Ukrainians receive worldwide support and solidarity.
36:11 So, he was conveying a message not only to USA and to the friends and allies of Ukraine, but he was conveying a message to Ukrainians.
36:23 Give up, I'm bigger than you, be afraid, I'll come and kill you.
36:35 That is simple blackmail.
36:37 And it is pity to say, but right now, as I told previously, dialogue is not possible, not because Ukraine exists, not because West supports Ukraine.
36:57 But dialogue that does not exist because Putin is not accepting the objective reality.
37:05 If he and his political group will accept the existence of the Ukrainian state, this dialogue which can stop the senseless war can start immediately.
37:25 So, in the beginning of the war, President Zelensky constantly was trying to foster dialogue with Mr. Putin, just to stop the senseless killing people.
37:41 But what we have heard from the Russian side, you have no right to exist.
37:47 So, you are not a subject of our dialogue.
37:55 And the Ukrainian government, their representatives of President Zelensky understood that at this point, only what we can do is defend ourselves.
38:11 That is what Ukraine is trying to do right now.
38:17 So, not because of the support and existence of Ukraine, which is an obstacle to start the negotiation.
38:29 But the denial of the subjectivity and existence of the nation, which counts millions of people.
38:39 That is an authentic cause of this senseless confrontation.
38:47 Good. I think we only have about a minute left, but one last point he made was that he has no interest in invading Poland or the Baltic region.
38:59 Some people have made the argument that if Russia prevails in Ukraine, it will only feed Putin's appetite for more land.
39:07 So, Putin is bad in building some strategy, but he is good to foster some tactics, tactical movements.
39:25 So, his first desire is to re-establish the Soviet Union.
39:32 He gave precise orders to his people almost 20 years ago to move in that direction.
39:46 So, his first goal is to re-conquer, re-establish the Soviet Union.
39:53 So, not Poland, not other Western countries, but Baltic countries will be the main target of Russia.
40:02 But re-establishment of the empire, it will be only the first step.
40:09 And then, becoming that nostalgic, utopical empire, great Russia again, they will try to impose their geopolitical interest to the rest of the world.
40:32 And in his mind, the image of the international relationships and the world order is the same which was created in the meeting of Yalta after the Second World War.
40:50 They publicly declared that NATO has to go away from the Eastern countries, because that is the sphere of their interest, so-called countries of the wars of agreement in the past.
41:13 So, Putin wants to divide the world as it was in the time of the Cold War.
41:20 First step, re-establish the Soviet Union.
41:23 And the second one, re-establish Russia as a new Soviet Union, which will be the world power imposing its geopolitical interest to the rest of the world.
41:42 So, that is Russian version of a very famous slogan in the USA.
41:49 We will make Russia great again.
41:55 One last question, I think we have time for.
41:58 You recently visited Canada.
42:00 It's the first time you've been in North America since before this major invasion two years ago.
42:07 Will you be visiting any other parts of North America in the near future?
42:13 What are your plans for international travel?
42:15 Well, if it will be the will of God, probably I will be visiting USA in the beginning of March.
42:27 Because we'll have a session of the permanent senate of our bishops already called and prepared in Washington.
42:43 And we will conclude our session of the permanent senate in New York.
42:48 That will be the nearest future.
42:53 And then we will see.
42:55 What are some of the concerns of the permanent senate right now?
42:59 What issues are they taking up?
43:02 Well, the permanent senate is a very special synodal instrument which helps to the head of the church to govern.
43:15 This is the way of governance of the Eastern Catholic Church according to the code of law of the Eastern Catholic Churches.
43:25 And the main concern is the adequate personal response to the challenge of war.
43:34 There are three priorities which we define as our personal priority for the next five years.
43:43 Journey and accompaniment to the internally displaced persons and to the war refugees.
43:51 We have to find where they are and we have to journey with them to protect them, to pay to them an adequate personal care.
44:00 The second, the healing of the wounds of the war.
44:05 With the special training, special programs, special cooperation with the psychologist, therapist,
44:15 those who are providing the rehabilitation to those who need it and so on.
44:24 And the third one is a family.
44:27 The personal care for Ukrainian family in the midst of war.
44:32 Because family, you know, is the sacramental union, men and women, is a very wounded institution in today's circumstances.
44:47 And we understand that family is the heart and future of Ukrainian society.
44:53 And the personal care for family is among our priorities right now.
44:59 [ Silence ]