Kevin Cameron and Mark Hoyer talk about the incredibly important role of the tuner/crew chief in top-level racing and how the job has changed over the years. Organizer, mechanic, prototyper, psychologist and so much more—and how the great crew chiefs achieve an almost wizard-like ability to get the most out of the rider, the motorcycle, and the team amidst the infinite variables and incredible pressure faced in top-level motorcycle racing.
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00:00 Welcome to the cycle world podcast. I'm Mark Hoyer. I'm with Kevin Cameron technical editor a man you may have heard of before
00:06 Today we're going to talk about the evolution of the
00:13 particularly the road racing team manager the evolution of the team manager and also the role of the team manager crew chief as
00:22 a as a psychologist
00:25 Especially for the rider, but also really for the team to manage all the relationships in the team
00:31 You know
00:34 But before we get to that I'd like to say
00:37 We are on Spotify and Apple the link is in the description for the video
00:42 So if you want to listen to us, you can do that on those platforms. We're really glad to have you along
00:47 like if you like what we're doing and
00:51 Certainly comment on future topics that you'd like for us to address but on to the team manager then and now
00:58 So, what do you think Kevin? How how is the role of the team and you've you've seen a lot of this stuff firsthand
01:04 Talk to us give us some basis of her understanding. Well at the beginning when
01:09 English teams raced in Continental Grand Prix's they traveled by train
01:17 No, they did. Come on. Yeah, they traveled by train and they would phone ahead
01:22 to the local dealer and the dealer would show up with the truck and
01:27 they would load all the Norton's or Velocets or whatever they were on that truck and they would go to the circuit and
01:34 The local dealer would also have arranged
01:37 hotel and all those things so
01:40 the team managers role was
01:45 Well, like for Joe Craig at Norton, he was a former rider
01:49 He was not a trained engineer
01:51 But he knew that to finish the Isle of Man engines had to be really rugged and his major role was making them finish
01:59 but he also had a hand in hiring riders and
02:04 Making things work so you can be sure that even though this is not documented
02:10 that
02:12 He looked a lot like the the conductor of an orchestra in the sense that he was doing all those tasks that you're speaking
02:20 up and then once the
02:22 Japanese, you know
02:25 I gotta I gotta interrupt because I think when I think about Joe Craig or I think about all the TT photos
02:31 from way back
02:33 Yeah, they they're all just they're wearing suits, right?
02:36 Those guys are wearing suits and then that there are the mechanics that are you know in greasy jumpers and stuff
02:42 But you know got a tie on underneath there. Yes, don't do that when you're adjusting the primary take the tie off, right?
02:48 Sorry, well, these are Vic these were Victorians. Yeah, and there were certain standards to be upheld
02:56 Yeah
02:57 well
02:57 So what do you think I mean was Joe Craig picking up a file and and or were they cutting frames were they doing?
03:03 Major, certainly they were rebuilding engines in the paddock, right?
03:07 They had the heads off every every little whip stitch because it was so easy to do and that way you could see how the
03:14 Piston was doing is there are the if the top land is intact
03:18 The top ring is intact all those things needed to be looked at and they were tuning these
03:23 engines right to the threshold of detonation and
03:28 Of course they they carried toluene if the local fuel was not very good
03:36 they could add 15% toluene and
03:39 In the between the wars era you've probably read about
03:45 50/50 petrol benzol
03:49 Benzol is a mixture of aromatic compounds benzene toluene and
03:55 xylene and they were a result of a baking coal to make
04:01 Illuminating gas for the cities. Mm-hmm. So every city was producing these liquids
04:06 so toluene persisted into the
04:10 1960s what was it good? Yeah good anti knock agent and yeah
04:15 certainly far less toxic. I mean not not not toxic, but
04:19 Tetraethyl lead tetraethyl lead which I once you know
04:24 We they eliminated lead from fuel in California and I once I had a friend working at a chemical company and I called them up
04:30 And I was like, hey, can I can I get just like a you know
04:32 Like five gallons of tetraethyl lead to have in my garage to add to my fuel and he's like, I don't know
04:37 Let me look into that and he's like, oh god
04:39 No, they wait they they keep the drums on a scale and if any goes missing
04:44 It's a huge deal like you this is terrible toxic stuff
04:47 But that three three licenses one to possess it one to store it and another one to open the can and take some out
04:55 Yeah
04:57 But very poisonous. Yeah, Italian is like it's a great solvent like it's probably I believe it's in many of your spray cleaners
05:04 If it's still legal and it was great in fuel. So yeah, so
05:07 Yeah, you had to deal with gas and and you know, what are you doing now?
05:11 You know, you're you're not using pump in in your MotoGP bike
05:16 So no, you're using the the contracted fuel that you know, you're getting but and it has to meet a really
05:25 Expensive to meet standard it is basically a mimicry of
05:30 Natural gasoline as it comes from the from the distillation apparatus
05:35 It's sort of strange because when they first said, okay, no lead
05:40 They started to make gasolines that were made just five elements. They call them chemistry set fuels
05:47 But now they have many more components and it's all very complicated. So
05:54 It's not at all exotic
05:56 Yes
05:58 When the when the Japanese went racing they first tried to do it by sending along
06:03 What my kale would called a mr. Wallet?
06:07 And I I think that there's always a mr. Wallet now. Yeah, I have multiple wallets really
06:14 mr. Ica
06:17 the Ica son was the respected
06:21 man in charge of the Honda team and
06:23 There were others and they very quickly found out that they needed somebody that spoke the local languages who knew
06:31 That at Austin for example, there were bumps. You might want to lower the float level a little bit and all those little
06:39 tips meant that you needed a
06:42 an experience a
06:45 veteran racer
06:47 Who is retired and now?
06:50 looking for a management job and
06:52 that's that was the prototype for kelker others and
06:57 Yamaha really needed Kel because they didn't yet have enough experience
07:05 To know some of the basics and
07:10 Then
07:15 After that when racing became very
07:17 Technical and the Japanese took over most of those roles at a point kelker others said
07:24 Okay, that's all done. Now. I'm nothing but a parts changer
07:29 and
07:32 everyone nodded and jabbed one another in the ribs because they knew that couldn't possibly be true because
07:38 Kel did such things as
07:41 when
07:44 The bike wouldn't steer
07:46 Kel and Kenny went to Barry Sheen's shop in England. We saw the steering head out of a YZR 500 and
07:55 Kenny stood back and Kel tried it a different. How does that how does this look a little more the less?
08:03 that looks good and
08:06 Then tapped it and they welded the steering head back in this was not unknown in
08:13 English racing circles, I remember that
08:15 For the Thruxton was it the 500
08:20 I think triumph at one point sawed their steering head off and put it on at a different angle. This is right. Yeah deeply
08:29 fundamental
08:32 Changes in the field by knowledgeable
08:35 highly skilled lifetime
08:38 bike
08:40 Absolutely builders doing things like no, this isn't working. We can't win. Yes. How do we do it?
08:46 Yeah, and these men were doing things that no Japanese engineer had the authority
08:52 either to do or to order
08:55 so it was really a
08:58 Hands-up in horror at a
09:02 Failure to observe rules of Frank
09:08 and
09:10 1981
09:12 Kenny went out and practiced on the new 0w of 54, which was Yamaha's square for
09:19 It had disc valves with carburetors coming out of its cheeks
09:23 and
09:25 He took Cal aside and he said if those people at Yamaha think we're gonna win the world championship
09:31 With this they've got another thing coming
09:35 So they discussed it
09:37 Kel took the heads off measured the cylinders and he said they've done it again
09:42 Said the transfers are too high
09:45 so there was a little lathe up in the light in the transporter and
09:50 Kel
09:54 Cobbled together some kind of a thing where he could lower the cylinders by machining off the base flange
10:01 And then he raised the exhaust ports back up
10:04 so that there was now a larger distance between the exhaust opening the transfer opening and
10:09 Transformed the engine
10:13 now Kenny wasn't
10:16 champion that year, but
10:18 It wasn't for want of trying and I saw him at
10:21 At Monza with that thing and just he just blazed away from everyone
10:29 And I get you just on a side note
10:31 Grand Prix 500s at Monza is a
10:35 Shocking. It's a shocking thought because it's Joe it has so much speed
10:41 It's got those chicanes and then you're just pulling the trigger on that, you know, yeah. Yeah. Holy moly. That must have been something
10:47 so
10:51 After that
10:53 What's happened into the team manager is that it has become an administrative position?
10:58 and
11:00 You have the technical the crew chief
11:03 Who has?
11:05 beneath him
11:06 All these all these people he has the engine guy
11:11 the
11:13 the
11:15 Data guy the tire guy the suspension guy. Yeah, and when the rider comes in from each practice
11:21 he sits down in his folding chair and
11:24 He is surrounded by
11:27 these disciples and
11:29 one team manager
11:32 Told me that well more than one has told me each of those technical specialists
11:39 wants and tries very hard to be the riders best friend and
11:44 This can get very politically complicated so that some team managers or I should say crew chiefs
11:51 Now say you technical fellows will talk to me and I will talk to the rider. Yeah
11:58 Because there has to be someone making sense of all the information so that nobody can just focus on one little thing
12:07 Because the motorcycle is such a an interwoven
12:11 Up the object I do want to get to that
12:17 I I want to go back to guys like Cal or Irv or
12:22 Gary Mathers for example who I met in
12:26 At Laguna Seca when he was running Honda's road racing team in the RC 45 RC 51 era
12:33 This is when I had the conversation and I was talking to him about like how do you work on the bikes?
12:37 And and you know, you get these bikes and you know, I've talked to Kevin Cameron and he says, you know
12:44 You know the bikes change and you do these things and he's like well and I asked him about engineers, you know
12:49 It's like you get this bike out of
12:50 Engineers and then it comes to the racetrack and what do you do? And he's like, well, I you know
12:54 I really like engineers we need them
12:56 We got to have the engineers he says but we're you know, think of us as the farmers, you know
13:02 we're the farmers and we're out in the field and when we look up in the sky and
13:06 We see that the weather's coming and it's gonna ruin the crops or we got to get the hay in or whatever it is
13:12 We have to figure out how to make the machine work to do that
13:15 and that's what we do you give you you just you do you do your thing their engineers are in another world and
13:21 It's fine. And then they hand us that thing and we get to work on
13:26 Getting the crops in which is showing up to the grid and maybe as you have said
13:31 What is your saying Kevin Cameron says?
13:34 100% never makes the grid
13:37 And it's true like you it can't be perfect
13:40 You you have to be per as perfect as you can make it in the time you have allotted
13:44 Because that's what practice is. It's a race to find a workable setup, right? And when it gets to be Sunday afternoon
13:51 You're going to run what you've got. Yes, unless you make that big gamble in the morning warm up
13:58 The classic oh we made a huge change in the morning weren't open. Oh my god, it worked or oh, no, it didn't. Yeah
14:06 but
14:08 1993
14:10 Yamaha came with a new chassis that was
14:13 Two extruded side beams and they had internal walls. So they were quite stiff
14:19 and
14:22 Practice didn't go well for them and at the
14:25 practice end of practice press conference Wayne Rainey said
14:30 All right. We have chatter. We have hop and we have skating
14:36 And we don't know what we're going to do about it. Mm-hmm
14:39 The bike had finally been made so rigid
14:43 that when leaned over in corners much like the
14:47 2009 Ducati with the carbon frame
14:52 that
14:54 there was no feedback from
14:56 the tires and
14:59 So the rider just had to guess how fast to go into corners. So you'd lost the front quite often
15:06 And
15:08 Well, I mean when you're making the bike that stiff on its side
15:12 You're losing the feedback and you're also really you're taking out some of the sideways suspension that you always talk about having some of that
15:20 Compliance between the steering head. Yes the motor mounts and then you're relying on the tire only
15:26 as a spring as a spring to and a damper and
15:33 Away you go
15:35 What Cal finally did at that race was?
15:39 He went to a falling suspension rate in the rear
15:43 Rising rate was very common
15:46 Falling rate was what it what is it even? Yeah, and they found something that worked and
15:52 As as Jerry Burgess who who worked with
16:00 With Rossi so many years and before that with doing
16:04 He was fond of using that Sherlock Holmes expression when you've tried all the alternatives what remains must be
16:12 correct
16:15 Yeah
16:17 To try all the other
16:19 Right sign of time-consuming. There's not a lot of time
16:22 Because there's also that story of when Burgess and Rossi were working together. They came to Laguna
16:30 The year that Rossi switched to Bridgestone tires and
16:33 The data was telling them that they were
16:39 Rossi was having to break 14 meters early
16:42 earlier than previously at the top of the hill for the chicane and
16:48 they tried all the standard things to improve breaking and
16:54 None of it worked. And so what remained was to do the opposite?
16:59 they raised the motorcycle and
17:03 What that does is it
17:07 Intensifies the weight transfer when braking from the rear wheel to the front wheel that is it makes it easier to do a stoppie
17:18 Why this is important
17:21 to braking is that
17:23 tires grip
17:25 increases with temperature
17:27 Not all brands of tires
17:29 Work this way equally rubber is a very variable thing. So
17:35 This is why the technicians are always asking the rider. How is initial braking?
17:41 How is trail braking the various phases of braking they want the details on all of that?
17:48 So this was initial braking soon as they'd raised the bike a few millimeters so that it transferred more weight to the front
17:54 the 14 meters just
17:56 Disappeared
17:59 Amazing. So that's and you know, so that's a that's a great technical exploit explanation of
18:05 you know what we have to get at is
18:08 The crew chiefs
18:11 role in that right, how does the crew chief so
18:15 You know was was Burgess a I'm the guy who talks to Valentino Rossi and everyone talks to me kind of a boss
18:22 That I couldn't answer yeah, I
18:25 mean
18:27 There's so the all the that's the thing. I mean there's a lot of complexity in auto racing
18:33 Right, but the added dynamic I
18:38 Just the dad dynamics would be similar it's just that
18:45 The riders
18:47 influence on the package is
18:49 Significantly higher of a percentage right certainly because the rider can move all over the place, right?
18:56 and
18:58 That's by the way now that they're talking about a weight
19:01 Equalization for world superbike this was a disadvantage for Danny Pedrosa because when he hung way off the motorcycle
19:11 It had less effect than when Burley Greg Hansford hung way off the motorcycle. You know
19:18 He was less able to push the motorcycle up
19:21 onto the fat part of its tires which riders have been doing since at least since
19:28 1956 when John Surtees wrote about it
19:31 But we're getting off of
19:35 crew chiefs here
19:37 Yeah, I think
19:39 you know, I think what we have now is
19:42 That individual riders for example like
19:47 Fabio Corderaro has hired a psychologist
19:52 Because he feels that he may be
19:56 Having negative thoughts or becoming a defeatist or or
20:02 in some way committing
20:05 mental process errors that are
20:09 Reducing his performance so he has an advisor like that. Yeah, and in the old days it used to be
20:16 I remember being told that
20:18 Don Castro really didn't do as well
20:23 Unless his
20:27 Crew chief was saying that was that was really a good practice. That was a strong ride
20:32 I noticed that you were really getting off the corners better than this morning
20:37 We all need a little encouragement
20:39 Don't we though sure
20:41 it's it takes a
20:44 Very self-centered person to say I know I'm cool. I don't need anybody telling me that I am
20:51 and
20:54 on the other hand then there was
20:57 Rob Muzzy
20:59 Who at a point?
21:01 he seemed like
21:04 He folded his arms and looked around as though to say I know the motorcycles ready. How about you?
21:12 That's great, well Rob's he could be so imposing, you know, and he's got them he had the mustache and all that stuff
21:19 So well, it does anyone look more like Joseph Stalin quite a visage
21:24 wonderful it was
21:30 Geraldo Farachi at Laguna when it was like Tiger Soa and maybe
21:35 Pascal Picot riding for him. I think
21:38 Was definitely Tiger Soa and they had you know
21:42 this was the days when they were finally getting you know data acquisition and they were getting throttle position and they could look at the
21:48 laps and
21:49 Tigers I was going slower and he was blaming the motorcycle and he was saying this and it was that and
21:55 And I kid with Farachi you can't or although you can't necessarily directly quote him
22:01 But he's he did he was not encouraging the tiger tiger was not going fast
22:05 He took tiger to the data and he says to get off the corner. You have to twist the bleep in throttle
22:11 He showed him in the data like Picot was turning the throttle, you know, like
22:16 17 feet sooner off the apex or three feet or whatever it was. It was yeah, you know in every corner you got a twist
22:24 Come on
22:26 Yeah, but you know, I think back to I think back to Irv Kenomoto and Freddie like Freddie did something
22:32 You know superhuman winning two championships in one year and he was just a you know a kid from Louisiana, you know
22:38 I think I think of
22:40 All right, I think of Nikki Hayden and I think of Nikki Hayden coming
22:47 you know, I interviewed Nikki in a motorhome when I when he was 16 out at Willow Springs and
22:53 He was terrified to talk to this old journalist and at the time I was probably like 27 or something. Yeah, and
23:00 You know, I just I think of I think of his youngness
23:05 and I think of
23:07 Looking at the pictures of Freddie or like the picture of Freddie in John Owens book that you talked about in an earlier
23:13 Podcast about like I don't know if we ought to be here or yeah, you know
23:17 Yeah, I think about that and I think about Irv as a psychologist because I met Irv in
23:22 Suzuka when they were doing the eight hour with John the dream team of John Kaczynski and Freddie Spencer
23:29 Yeah, and I just thought about well, you know Irv worked with John and John's
23:34 Legendarily talented rider, but he's also quirky, right?
23:37 You know, they there's all the stories about the Honda socks and you know, just an unusual guy
23:43 You know like yes like to have things clean and and so forth and I think about
23:48 Irv working with those guys and getting the best out of out of those guys
23:52 While at the same time being the guy who could walk out in the paddock in
23:56 Morning in the morning when the bike is fired up and say hmm. I think we're gonna have to run a different needle today
24:02 Yeah, you know and and to have you know to have an that that to me is
24:07 a
24:09 magnificent
24:11 Bread talent. Well, it just I mean it's so much to manage someone as
24:16 Talented as Freddie Spencer who has never seen the world
24:20 The way he did going from Louisiana to the World Championships and to ride two different bikes on the same day at the highest level
24:28 it it I can't even imagine trying to manage that and work on the bike and
24:34 Take it apart and fix it like was what he was doing. Well
24:39 Freddie had
24:41 tapes of his favorite TV shows
24:44 sent from the US and
24:46 I think that what he really needed was to recreate in the whatever degree was possible
24:53 the feeling of being at home and surrounded by the familiar and
24:58 Irv would sometimes make him breakfast and they would talk about things and they would start out talking about
25:07 What any two people might talk about the weather?
25:10 What's going to happen today and then gradually it would move to
25:17 What are we going to do about the the gearbox and turn four?
25:22 And what are we going to do about?
25:25 You know the hard pull out at the bottom of the hill
25:28 Because if we if we set up for that we're anti set up everywhere else
25:34 So there's got to be a compromise somehow
25:36 gradually
25:39 Freddie maybe you could describe him as leaving home and
25:43 taking up residence residence in the professional sphere and
25:49 Finally being ready to ready for practice
25:52 but Irv built this
25:55 Path and it's kind of protection and psychological warm-up for him, right? Yeah, because it was needed
26:03 Yeah, and and he knew
26:05 that
26:07 Freddie could do such such incredible and wonderful things
26:10 but things had to be
26:13 nearly right and I think that the
26:16 the idealized fan view is that the racer is a
26:21 beady-eyed man of steel
26:24 Who has a secret plan and is going to go out in the final and blitz everybody?
26:32 Well, there may be people like that, but I haven't met them
26:35 I think I'm just
26:39 It's it's a very cooperative enterprise and I think it would be very interesting to know what they do about it in NASA
26:46 Yeah, I'm just trying to I'm trying to imagine, you know
26:50 Maybe Tardozzi or or deal in you know getting up and making breakfast for the run
26:55 sure
26:57 Such a well, what was it? I forget. It was an Italian soup super bike team and
27:03 They had a whole family there and they made family meals
27:06 every
27:09 Lunchtime and dinner and I think there's a real value in that
27:13 well, it's very yeah, it's very primal and I think it's it's that it's that time of sharing and a
27:19 feeling of family and of trying to work together and
27:24 You know it. Yeah, I think it makes a big difference doing that stuff together. I think would help bond
27:29 All right, and we know that lots of
27:32 everyday motorcyclists
27:35 regard their riding as an opportunity to clear their minds and
27:39 I think riders need that especially
27:42 but it works just the same for
27:45 Somebody on a an old beat-up BX 500. Yeah, I'm gonna go for a ride
27:53 So I'm thinking now I'm thinking back to
27:55 say Joe Craig and
27:58 That era and let's call it just let's say 50s Grand Prix racing
28:03 Let's pick that 50s Grand Prix racing TT all of that. And I think well, what if
28:08 What if you took JJ Cobas?
28:11 Twin-spar aluminum frame. Yeah progenitor JJ Cobas in the 80s
28:17 What if you took JJ Cobas his ideas and you dropped him?
28:21 into
28:22 Norton in the 1950s. Could you?
28:25 Could
28:28 Could those ideas be expressed? Could you have done a twin-spar?
28:31 frame
28:34 At that, could you have made that happen? You don't think so because the twin-spar frame required engines that did not
28:40 Vibrate so badly that your fillings fell out
28:47 Aluminum is a material that has no
28:50 fatigue limit so a
28:53 fatigue limit is a stress level below which the fatigue life is virtually infinite
29:00 Which is one of the wonderful things about steel
29:03 That's why you can build a bridge out of steel and it doesn't just oh, that's the hundred and eighty six thousandth time
29:10 Now I'm falling in the river. No, it's the reason I'm laughing right now is because that's funny
29:16 but also you are you are you actually are exhibiting your soulless technician because what
29:20 What I'm asking is not
29:23 Not in practice could aluminum be the frame on the vibrating Manx Norton engine
29:30 But could the concept of a twin-spar frame?
29:33 Would that have been accepted and could you have executed that in a paddock to completely change the frame for example?
29:41 Norton planned on it. Yeah, because when they built their horizontal single it had a big tube backbone frame
29:48 That was the frame a single tube and basically that's what Kawasaki did with their 500 four-cylinder
29:54 Yeah, except that it was a rectangular
29:57 Welded tube, but it was a tube all the same. Yeah, so
30:01 Norton had had that in mind. They wanted to see if
30:08 They could learn something from Motoguchi whose horizontal singles had been
30:13 So strong for so long, you know, even though they weren't as outstandingly powerful
30:22 But they were very handy and they were arranged to accelerate by making them very very light and giving the engine
30:31 a nice broad
30:34 relatively flat torque curve
30:36 So how much?
30:38 So, yes, we can make dramatic changes in the 50s right in the paddock you could do that Calcar others
30:45 Kassav the steering head of a GP bike where
30:49 We're so far away from that now. I
30:53 think I think what it makes me think of is is is intuition and
30:59 the efficiency of the human brain in
31:03 problem-solving and
31:06 looking, you know analogy looking at all the things that have happened in the past and
31:11 How do how how does this steel feel when I hold it up against a grinder versus this other piece of steel?
31:17 Or I'm trying to cut it all of those things that swirl around in the tuners head that say like maybe we should try this
31:24 versus
31:27 There's got to be intuition in it. But now we're dealing with you know, a billion lines of code so much data and
31:33 sensors and so you it is it's beautifully freeing if you can
31:38 Arrange that data in an understandable way and I wonder if that's where the intuition is now is
31:44 Well Honda at one time at the end of the 500 two-stroke era
31:50 Had created an expert system for the 500
31:54 so you would you would enter your
31:57 problems and
32:00 It would then make suggestions based upon a mass of data no and yeah, and that's
32:06 contrast that with
32:10 Ginger Malloy
32:12 testing a TSS 250 bull taco
32:16 coming into the pits and
32:18 Technician says
32:22 Where's the problem and?
32:24 Ginger said, you know, what do I know? So I turn the throttle a certain amount
32:28 I say there and the technician reaches in and makes them a mark on the needle. They take the needle away
32:34 They put it in a drill. It's spinning. They pinch the mark with sandpaper
32:39 To increase the fuel flow now testing
32:43 That works great on that's that's easy on it. That's
32:48 That's easy on a single cylinder. But when you're making custom needles when you try to make two, that's where the problem is. Yes. Yes indeed
32:56 so
32:58 I think Irv Canemoto noted that around 2005 that
33:03 the the Japanese teams were switching to it a
33:07 sort of more formalized system of
33:11 Decision-making which was going to have less
33:16 connection to the intuitive and to the
33:21 30-year veteran
33:24 And
33:27 Ducati wanted to train engineers in trackside knowledge
33:32 and
33:34 I
33:35 Remember that Eric Buell brought all his engineers to Daytona for a pre Daytona test of that 1340 CC
33:43 Harley based engine that had half inch half inch cylinder studs and
33:51 That thing
33:57 Fair-sized
33:59 Things are going wrong with it right along and what I was told was it
34:04 Divided the engineers into two camps one camp wanted to go back to the lab
34:09 Back to the to the base and get comfortable in front of their $30,000 pro software package
34:16 Everything's fine the other guys were
34:24 Strongly engaged by problems popping up right in front of them. Yeah
34:28 You know Jennifer and figure it out. They liked it. Yes, sir
34:32 so I
34:35 think that the
34:38 The crew chief is by no means finished as a profession
34:43 But the team manager has become an administrator like Lynn Jarvis at Yamaha. He's he's on another plane and
34:51 you can tell that this is the case because
34:54 Who would have who except a higher administrator could have hired?
34:59 Jorge Lorenzo to ride the point-and-shoot
35:04 Ducati Lorenzo the supreme corner speed stylist hired to ride a Ducati
35:11 What that sounds like to me is that somebody big said?
35:18 Get some name writer in here who can make sense out of this. I
35:22 Don't care how you do it. I don't care what you spend get it done and
35:27 They walked away thinking who's available. Yeah, and
35:33 It took Lorenzo
35:36 18 months to change his style to suit the Ducati
35:42 18 months he could not afford because he didn't win anything then he won three races
35:48 But by that time the relationship was so poisonous that
35:53 They went their separate ways
35:56 So
35:59 This is a problem in organizations is that as you are promoted you become more and more remote from the subject and
36:07 You become more and more the person who's deciding important issues like which?
36:13 Engineers are going to get their own and assigned parking spaces
36:18 And you know what supplier are we going to use for all this stuff? So and they don't know anything about racing
36:25 So they shouldn't be making the decisions
36:28 Except whether to switch it on or off
36:31 Yeah, I you know I can think of many expert people in the business and in racing
36:37 Who have a racing background who were who were riders?
36:41 but I try to think of and you know, this is I
36:46 just I think of Cal Carruthers and
36:49 I think okay Cal made Cal loaded up a Thames van attempts 400 e
36:54 With a Manx Norton. Yeah, it's an English Ford folks
36:58 English Ford van independent front suspension. We could do a whole program on details of the Thames and because I own one
37:05 but it was a good van but a small van bigger than a
37:09 VW and he loaded his bike and his family in the back of that came from Australia and
37:15 And drove the circuit. He didn't have a tuner. He was the tuner. He was everything, you know
37:21 I'm sure that Jan his wife helped organize it and his son Paul. Haha was a pain in the ass
37:26 But Paul was Paul used to be my boss
37:31 It's a very funny - yo, he's great. No, he's awesome
37:35 He's seen so much in in in road racing and of course, you know, we get to hang out with his dad every once in a while
37:42 so
37:43 But you know, he loaded the van and he did everything
37:46 He did every bit of tuning and all the mechanical work
37:50 And like I said, I'm sure Jan his wife helped with you know, where are we staying?
37:54 well
37:55 we're camping a tent right or getting the food going and taking care of kids and living a racing life and
38:01 Coming from that and then being a team manager like wow
38:05 What kind of equipment would you have for that?
38:08 You know and being the rider really understanding the plight of the rider and what your actual inputs do and I think I wonder
38:16 You know, I wonder how many suspension, you know
38:19 How many suspension techs like how many data technicians are really in it deep road racing world championship level people, right?
38:26 I wonder yeah, I mean, I know they're out there. There's a there's an engineer that works for
38:32 M for the team hammer and she you know, I've met her at Road America and she's riding a supermoto bike and she's
38:40 Doing track days in France. She's French and
38:43 And really into it, but you wonder
38:46 How many of those filter up to the highest level and how many are just you know technicians often in office?
38:54 Interpreting data, you know
39:00 I'm a strong believer in intuition and and
39:02 thinking, you know thinking about the problems staring out the window letting yourself riding your motorcycle and
39:09 letting the things churn and bubble in the background and
39:13 Figuring I have to agree. Yeah, just just as we said in another of these podcasts that
39:19 Freddy and other riders have learned new circuits by saying. Oh, well this corner is just like
39:27 This corner at this other circuit and they put that together in their minds and then they would have a good
39:33 beginning understanding and Freddy
39:36 Would often going to a new circuit be on the pace in three laps
39:42 Don can a was like that and
39:45 I'd go to press launches before I worked at Sega world and Don was showing up for Sega world
39:50 Five laps he knew where he was going and everything else was a refinement
39:55 Yeah, it was shocking. And that's yeah, that's a that's an entirely different skill set. But
40:01 So I think that applies to the to the crew chief the crew chief has had all these experiences
40:10 He doesn't have them written down. There's no
40:12 Encyclopedia that he's made
40:15 No database other than himself and when a situation comes up
40:21 He may be reminded. Oh
40:24 Isn't this sort of like where was that?
40:26 and then
40:28 That may recall a train of thought but will give some
40:31 a
40:33 Key to the matter at hand
40:35 So, yes that you might call that subconscious AI, you know, oh it's just I
40:45 Capitalized definitely. Well, yeah, I wonder you know
40:52 The human element is still
40:54 Obviously key because you have the nut behind the handlebars
40:58 Yeah, and you've got a crew chief and you have
41:03 experience and intuition having an influence on
41:07 All of those things and the problem-solving and you just have buckets more data
41:14 And like most things that we would say the pace has gone up and the volume has gone up
41:20 And I think the crew chief maybe the crew chief's role, you know, Irv
41:24 Kanemoto was probably like I'm gonna I'm gonna go grind these cylinders calcarell ers
41:29 I'm gonna grind these cylinders or someone like him will or I'm gonna put these in a lathe and this just isn't happening
41:33 but they are sticking their finger up in the wind and they are thinking about it and
41:38 They are using their intuition to process
41:41 More data to yes probably there to to help with that signal to noise ratio that we all struggle with
41:47 Right, like yeah just now especially the Internet
41:51 Yeah, the fundamental problem in the Internet is signal to noise ratio
41:54 There's all kinds of great information out there
41:57 but to dig it out to find a good source and to have something that's actually true or
42:02 Having the appearance of true
42:04 Or you know is is difficult. So
42:08 well, I think that
42:11 Ducati have been very successful now for
42:15 a little while and I'm hearing people saying oh, well, they've got to slow the Ducati's down and give the other guys a chance and
42:22 what
42:24 I'm sure that Ducati are asking themselves
42:27 What is this what is the success based on why is this working and
42:34 Why is it not working quite as well in Aprilia?
42:38 Not quite as well at KTM and
42:41 Why are the Japanese nowhere?
42:43 And
42:46 I think that they they have a lot of the basics down really well
42:52 They know where everything belongs. Nobody is going to suddenly move an engine an inch and make a big
42:58 Improvement. Kel moved moved the engine of the of the
43:04 350 Yamaha twin a
43:07 bunch
43:09 Bent the front down tubes forward
43:12 Put slugs in the frame and move them move the engine forward because he couldn't get off corners
43:18 It just kept making the front end light and it would go wide
43:21 So he did the obvious thing. Let's move stuff forward. And if you look at
43:26 Today's MotoGP bike the windscreen is now
43:31 practically over the front tire
43:34 to let the rider come forward they accelerate with their arms bent and
43:39 That's to keep the front end down
43:43 but if you look at what Mike Hale would rode in
43:47 1966 and 67 in the 500 class
43:51 His butt was back over the rear tire and if he tucked in his chin was in that little depression in the gas tank
43:58 He was nowhere near the front end
44:01 well, yeah, I mean I think you're at what you're underlining here is that as
44:05 We have experimented over the years and it's this was the same on the car side where you could
44:11 You could make somebody have a clever idea of the gurney flap and you'd pick up three
44:16 So you'd get three seconds out of it and the era of the three second change or even a one
44:21 You know a tenth to pick up a tenth now is is a big stuff pretty big job
44:27 Yeah, we are we are into this
44:29 this sort of
44:31 Whatever the ideal outline it reminds me of I think it was Yamaha Virago development
44:36 You know concepting and they were like we need to build a cruiser. We need to build a cruiser Harley sells a lot of cruisers
44:42 We need to build something that appeals to the American audience and they took these cutouts and the cutouts were just like basically
44:48 You know, it was a profile as a black silhouette of a motorcycle and they just had the handlebars here and they just kept
44:55 Moving them until like oh, this is the ideal cruiser shape the most number of people responded positively to this outline
45:02 And that's kind of what I think that's what I think where we are with with GP bikes in the sense that they're they're all very
45:10 Close on what this sort of near ideal is and now we're dealing in the very fine points. Yeah
45:16 Remember that when when Lorenzo was trying to get up to speed on the Ducati that he kept saying
45:23 he needed new gas tank because it was stopping him from
45:26 Making the movements on the bike that he needed to make and there were people who were saying
45:32 cheap excuses just twist the throttle and
45:36 Finally they made the changes and he went quicker and that's where management comes in, right?
45:42 That's where your crew chief has to be the person who rams that through. Yeah. Yeah, this is important
45:49 Let's do it. Yeah, and I think that
45:53 the
45:54 changes that are responsible for the Ducati being very good now and
45:58 being good on a broad range of tracks and the Aprilia is able to set really fast laps and
46:07 Be up front some of the time. What are those little things?
46:11 You can bet that they're awake staying awake late
46:15 Working on this but it's they're very small subtle things
46:20 And of course the business of making the tires last the riders don't just go for it
46:27 They're constantly evaluating the tires and the way they feel and they know oh
46:33 This is this is not going. Well, I'm going to have to
46:37 select mapping for
46:40 And start sending a little less power or less abrupt power to the rear tire than their lap times don't improve
46:48 but they do finish and
46:50 The Ducati's are up front because they've they've got the best handle on all of this
46:56 But could they tell Aprilia how to do it? I wonder you know, I wonder
47:03 Well, I think I think it's a good place to kind of wrap this up. Is it the
47:11 complexity of
47:13 What's going on between human psychology?
47:17 Machinery all the data processing the data collecting the data the new tire the weather
47:25 The pavement the bumps the no bumps the smoothness the grip
47:30 All of those things
47:33 It's why it's why motorcycling motorcycle racing is so interesting
47:38 It's this it's this beautiful soup and it's as much as it can be the same. It's it's always changing
47:44 Yes. Yes indeed, and it does remain fascinating. Yeah, I quite agree
47:49 Well, thanks everybody for
47:53 Joining us for another podcast. We'll be back next week. Please get down in the comments
47:57 We're gonna review the comments this week and try to work something in on our next podcast from your requests
48:04 We've got a lot on the various episodes. We've done again
48:08 Look look for us on Spotify and Apple and thanks so much for riding with us