For this week's In Conversation we sat down with the songwriter and multi-instrumentalist discuss his surprise ABBA cover and how a trip to the West Coast rekindled his love for making music
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00:00 There's like versions on YouTube that it's like Paul McCartney, AI,
00:03 Mick Declan. There is an AI Paul version, it's not even that version, it's my version that's got
00:10 nothing to do with Paul McCartney, it's just my version of Aperture. And it's like, it says AI,
00:15 Paul McCartney, Mick Declan. It's got like hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube.
00:26 Hi, I'm Sophie Williams and I'm joined by Declan McKenna for the latest in NME's
00:30 In Conversation series. Declan, how are we? I'm all right, how are we? We're good, we're doing well.
00:36 So what happened to the Beach album coming soon? How are we feeling about it? So I thought that
00:40 was a question to begin with. Yeah, feeling good. It's all going well, just excited to get the tunes
00:50 out really, because it's been, you know, a while. What mindset did you go in at the start of this
00:56 album? Obviously, like you said, you had a four year gap in between records, there was a bit of
00:59 time with everything that went on with lockdown in between. Yeah, I think the sort of spirit that
01:06 went into this album was that I was sort of working so much through the sort of the heart
01:12 of the pandemic that music, actually making music sort of became a bit like it was when I was a
01:22 teenager again, really, it was just kind of me doing all this stuff for fun and, you know, for
01:28 a bit of an escape from all of this sort of heady, you know, sort of more promo-y kind of stuff.
01:39 And yeah, I just, I don't know, I really felt there was something good about what I was doing,
01:44 and maybe just with a little bit more experience was able to kind of start executing a couple more
01:51 intimate, like, verging on lo-fi ideas with a bit more intention and just a bit better than
01:59 maybe I would have. So I felt quite confident that even though these ideas had sort of,
02:03 yeah, come out of just kind of messing around at home for fun, that it could become something.
02:08 So yeah, that was kind of the ethos that I went into it with, was that this album would almost be
02:16 giving something a bit different and able to sort of be formed of the stuff that is,
02:22 that maybe I wouldn't have had the confidence to sort of really go for previously,
02:30 and having more of my own sort of like production ideas and stuff like that on the record, I think.
02:38 Definitely. And I guess we talk about wanting to be more grounded, you know,
02:41 just take things at a slower pace and let these ideas come to you. What else did you have to
02:46 change in sort of your day-to-day life or routine to get you into that mind space to make the record?
02:50 I don't think I did very much at all, really. Like, it was very, it started,
02:57 at least the start was very natural. And I think just gradually, I guess when I started working
03:01 with Luka, who produced the record, like, he really had this ethos of the music just being,
03:07 you know, able to give people a release, able to be just like feel good and not weighing it down.
03:13 Like, I think if the lyrics sort of felt like you're trying to explain something, trying to like
03:19 overdo an idea, then it just wasn't seeming to work. So like, you know, just getting
03:28 out of some things that I would usually reach for and just working in really quite just natural and
03:35 direct and instantaneous way, I guess is the way to describe it. Like, just being able to kind of
03:41 bounce off of the moment and pick an idea out of thin air. And if it sort of feels good, just go
03:47 with that. And then, you know, the sort of meaning sort of develops over time. But yeah, I think the
03:54 ideas where you don't kind of force yourself to over explain it or something actually can feel
04:02 the most profound in the context of a song because it's, you know, the combination of the sound and
04:06 the lyrics and sometimes, you know, less is more with these things.
04:11 I guess you can really hear that in songs like Elevator Hum, for example,
04:15 which has this real sort of like wonder, like childlike nature to it.
04:19 What other artists or songs that you listen to maybe make you feel that way?
04:25 I was listening to this album earlier, actually, that kind of I was like, ah,
04:31 it's probably somewhat of an influence. So I started listening to Irracula Spectacular and
04:38 I guess Time To Pretend opens that album. And I was like, this is like, you know,
04:43 just got that like childhood wonder that just like playful lyrics. Just yeah, super like,
04:52 feels just super open. So like I feel I mean, MGMT is always a bit of an influence for me,
04:56 but that tune I was like, I kind of tied to Elevator Hum. I was like, it's probably a bit
05:01 of an influence there. But lots of tunes. I mean, one of the influences for the Elevator Hum has been
05:08 thrown around as the hoedown throwdown.
05:13 Yeah, I can see the vision.
05:14 The boom de clap de clap, you know, sort of groove going on in there. So that's also,
05:20 I guess, a really goofy feel good song.
05:23 Are you going to do that dance routine on tour?
05:25 Well, I think, yeah, I think we open Elevator Hum with the hoedown throwdown. I'm starting to get
05:32 the two confused already. We open Elevator Hum with the boom de clap de clap and then sort of
05:36 go into it. I think I can see it's an idea. It's just, you know, we haven't planned it yet.
05:41 What you got to think about is 10,000 people sitting at Alexandra Palace doing the hoedown
05:45 throwdown. Yeah, we're gonna make it happen.
05:48 Yeah, we're gonna do it.
05:50 We're gonna do it. So going back to the record as well, sort of in the past few months,
05:56 you've talked about how some of these songs maybe wouldn't have made it on the previous records.
06:00 They would have seemed a bit too sort of like, like hearty compared to previous material,
06:05 maybe sort of like a joke in some ways. They're so fun and so carefree.
06:08 What changed for you to have to completely let go and just trust your instincts?
06:14 I think just my tastes have sort of relaxed a little bit like and also matured a little bit.
06:21 Like I still like really care about music and put pressure on myself in that way. You know,
06:27 I really care about the stuff that I make, but like it's a different kind of thing. I've actually
06:34 found that I can kind of sort of relax a little bit more when I'm making music and often that just
06:40 like leads to better results. And yeah, I don't know, like I feel like I just saw my music as
06:47 something else before. And so when I'd come up with, you know, these slightly more sort of
06:52 groove based ideas or, you know, little ideas that are kind of more based around the sort of
07:00 sonics or based around just how it feels like I just, it would never feel complete. And I think,
07:08 I think, yeah, really this whole process has been just like figuring that out and just learning a
07:13 new way of finishing music. And it's been quite empowering, I guess is the word. It's been quite
07:22 like, it's made me feel just like quite capable of executing different kinds of songs, you know,
07:30 and I feel like I'm more and more just see every album project that I'm working on as a, you know,
07:38 an opportunity to make something that I'm proud of, but also just an opportunity to learn. And
07:42 like each record that I've done, I've worked on in quite a different way and had, you know,
07:47 different people to kind of learn from along the way. And so, yeah, I feel like it had to be
07:52 something different this time around. And it was, yeah, somewhat dramatically different process from
07:58 what I'd done before. But yeah, really, really, really allowed me to kind of execute things I'd
08:03 learned and also keep sort of absorbing new methods. Totally. When you talk about learning
08:11 from other people as well, obviously sort of your world of collaborators has expanded in quite a way.
08:16 You had Eli Smart helping you out with this record. C-Mat has performed with you at various
08:21 shows over the past year. What's been like the importance of bringing these people into your
08:25 world? You know, taking the pressure off yourself a little bit. I just think it's a beautiful thing,
08:30 like, and you just, I love not, you know, part of, I guess, what this album was about was not
08:38 exactly knowing where I was heading with it. Like, I really, I really didn't know how it would end up.
08:44 There was lots of different avenues that could have taken it down. And, you know, as I say,
08:48 the process was quite new to me as well. So really working with other people adds to that. And it
08:56 adds to the excitement of it where, you know, if you're able to get perspective on it and look back
09:01 and, you know, assess what is what's right for the song and what feels the best, then, you know,
09:06 just being able to collaborate freely and try stuff out with people with new influences in the room is
09:11 like great. And yeah, as I say, like in the gigs and in the studio, I've had like a whole host of
09:19 different people coming in and just trying stuff out, whether it's, you know, writing songs together
09:24 or just throwing down, you know, Eli has thrown like a load of lap steel on the album, the odd
09:30 guitar solo he's done on the album. And Ali Kelly sings on Elevator Hum and a bunch of other songs
09:36 on the album. You can sort of really hear her sort of stamp on it. And yeah, it's just allowed
09:43 things to open up in a really nice way. And the album is still, you know, still like really got
09:49 to a point where me just working on it, even a bit, a little bit all over the place, and then
09:54 got to a greater point when I started working with Luca, you know, we really refined the ideas I had,
09:59 created a few new ideas. So we had quite a good foundation for people to really jump in on and
10:05 throw paint at the wall and kind of see what's working really. It's great. It's a great way to
10:12 make music because it's just fun. And yeah, you get these beautiful results that you wouldn't
10:18 have anticipated. And I guess speaking on C-Mart in particular, she's had a breakthrough year,
10:23 this year for her second album, being nominated for BBC Sound Love. What's it been like for you
10:27 two to see each other evolve as musicians? So you've got that friendship that goes back. Yeah.
10:31 Always supporting her merch. Yeah, I'm always wearing her socks. Apparently. Not today. Not
10:36 today. Thankfully, I've been papped in her socks too many times. Yeah, great. Like, I feel like we
10:44 only met a few years ago, really, what, two or three years ago, maybe? And we kind of started
10:52 by like writing tunes together. And yeah, I was kind of a fan of her music before I knew her,
11:00 before she came on tour with us, obviously, on the last record. She's just a really, you know,
11:05 a really, really unique, creative, you know, person and artist, like, and just has been really
11:13 inspiring to work with in that way. But also, yeah, great to see her doing so well this year
11:18 and everything. It's kind of, it's crazy. We obviously wrote one of the tunes on her album
11:23 together, Vincent Company, which is quite a hilarious name, but great tune. And yeah,
11:31 it's been really, really cool. Like, she's, yeah, sort of, there's more tunes that we've worked on
11:37 together, which I can't really kind of hold him back from talking about because there's, you know,
11:42 there's more moments that I think will eventually see the light of day. But, but so far, great,
11:49 really happy for everything that's happening this year.
11:53 Amazing. So let's talk about your campaign for the Christmas number one, your cover,
11:57 Abba's Saving Me With My Fingers.
11:59 Are you sure it's already happened?
12:01 Yeah, I mean, obviously.
12:03 What was sort of the decision behind releasing this? Obviously, it'd been a big deal on social
12:10 media for a while, it'd really been bubbling up and excitement around it.
12:13 Well, I just felt like I had to get it done. Well, no, I actually didn't. I really, I built a new
12:22 studio or rather sort of had a like, shared cabin kind of done up and basically needed some stuff to
12:34 try out in there. And just one sort of evening, I just thought to have a crack at slipping through
12:42 my fingers because people have been asking for it so much. And I hadn't really been able to do it
12:46 over the tour and stuff like that. It was just like, I just, I couldn't do it any justice, really.
12:53 You know, if you're going to do something, you might as well execute it in the right way. And
12:58 like, it already had an original version that people liked. So I didn't want to stray from it
13:04 too much, but I also, you know, wanted to treat it like something that's going to exist on the
13:10 internet forever, possibly. Not like I did that the last time, really. But yeah, so I just spent
13:17 one evening, I did like just a straight acoustic take without thinking about it too much. And then
13:23 I was just listening back to it and kind of was like, I should add a few more elements to this.
13:28 So towards the end of the track, there's some nice synths and some drums and everything on there's
13:34 played and produced by me. And so it kind of made sense to kind of maintain the lo-fi kind of...
13:41 Keep it consistent.
13:43 Yeah, keep it in line with the other thing. But I was kind of like trying to purposefully get things
13:48 kind of a little bit muddier and a little bit like, yeah, like they could have been recorded
13:54 on my phone, like on a live stream as the previous version did. But yeah, and then I did that and I
14:01 just, I really liked it. So I was like, ah, let's just release it and get it Christmas number one.
14:06 Exactly.
14:06 Job done.
14:07 And that's what you did.
14:08 And that's what I did. Also just the end of it, it's like, right, there you go. We're done with
14:12 that. I'm not going to play it at the gigs. Merry Christmas. And then move on to the next single.
14:20 So how did you feel when it first started taking off on social media and people were
14:24 comparing the vocal to Paul McCartney? That's a pretty big comparison.
14:27 I felt good about it at first, but now it's like, there's like versions on YouTube that it's like
14:32 Paul McCartney, AI, McDeclan. And I'm like, how has this got so...
14:37 Not even your full name.
14:39 Confused, like, it's not even the AI, there is an AI Paul version. It's not even that version.
14:45 My version that's got nothing to do with Paul McCartney. It's just my version of Abitude.
14:51 And it's like, it says AI Paul McCartney, McDeclan.
14:54 Like hundreds of thousands of views on YouTube. Really weird. But to be honest,
14:59 I don't take it that personally because it's not, um, it's not something that I've spent a long time
15:06 working on. I just, it was just on a live stream. I played half an hour of a tune and now it's on
15:13 TikTok. That's the way the world works.
15:18 I guess, would it be fair to say, speaking on Paul McCartney, that you can maybe hear
15:21 some elements of his Ram era in your new album?
15:25 Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you know, that sort of intimacy and, um, I guess the characters,
15:34 like he really dived more into his like characters in that one. I felt like there's all different
15:38 kind of vocal stamps from Paul. And that's, that's what I like about Paul and what is such
15:44 a big influence for me. It's like, yes, you know, there's perhaps the voice, you know,
15:50 the sort of voice that he sung all the Beatles stuff in, which is maybe even still has like
15:56 four or five variations on it. And then in Ram, it just goes even more extreme,
16:01 um, you know, with the intimate moments and with the, the more, you know, goofy, uh, sort of,
16:09 I'm trying to think, you know, Admiral Halsey and all of this stuff, like where he's just
16:15 doing these weird different voices. And, um, that's big influence on the record because
16:20 I kind of have elements of that and yeah, just the way in which it was recorded as well. You
16:25 know, I know Ram, a lot of it was just one by one bit by bit, just building up a sort of weird
16:32 little soundscape. And that's kind of been the process of this album as well. Yeah. It hasn't
16:38 been a sort of, you know, Abbey Road, Beatles recording session. A lot more relaxed, a lot more,
16:44 a lot more chill. Um, and people hated that album when it came out a lot. Well, some people did
16:49 anyway, so I'm really looking forward to it. I mean, going back to ABBA, at least, have you been
16:55 to ABBA voyage? Yeah. And what is your review? I thought it was really good. It was weird. Like
17:01 they had this whole, you know, um, video sequence of this child in the, in the winter, I guess in,
17:11 you know, Sweden probably, um, which was like mad. I didn't see that coming, but it was still
17:18 kind of cool and epic. I loved my favorite thing about it was that they open the whole show with
17:24 one of my favorite ABBA songs, which is the visitors title track of their final album,
17:29 visitors great album, like darker maybe. And more, you know, it's dipping into the eighties,
17:35 that one. So it's like more synth heavy, more, somewhat more robotic in places. Um,
17:42 and really, really cool. And I love that song and, and they opened the whole thing with it. And I
17:47 just always, I feel like I would almost thought before, like, imagine, you know, opening a show
17:54 with the visitors is such an, like such a, it's so full of anticipation. Um, and yeah, just awesome
18:02 tune. And then they go and just after that, they just basically play the hits and it's really cool.
18:08 And there's a live band. What's not to love? It's like seeing ABBA. I mean, if you could choose
18:15 another artist to be hologrammed and play a live show like that, who would you go for?
18:20 Beatles.
18:22 What would like, what would you want on the set list?
18:29 Anything. I'd want them to change up the set. Like that was what I really loved about Paul
18:38 McCartney's headline Glastonbury set that one I was at and it was amazing. And, you know,
18:45 he played tunes like for the benefit of Mr. Kite, which I was just not expecting at all.
18:50 And it was so cool. Like never in my life did I think I'd hear any good rendition of that song
18:55 live and it was sick. And like, that's the kind of stuff that I would love to hear. Obviously you
19:01 want to hear some of the hits, but like, you know, to me, all Beatles songs are hits. Like
19:07 there's no, there's no filler really. Even the, even like the weirdest Beatles song is probably
19:13 like two minutes long or probably a bit longer. But still like, you know, they're just, I never
19:22 think they overdid anything. So anything, anything would be great. I love the Beatles.
19:28 We're just going to manifest it now.
19:30 It'll probably happen. To be honest, I'm guessing it becomes a bit of a trend, but I don't know.
19:37 So going back to the album, obviously earlier, we talked a lot about the previous albums and
19:44 how you had to move on and get into a new mindset. What is it like for you now when you go back to
19:48 play those earlier songs? Are there some that are quite difficult to play? Do you feel like
19:52 you've really moved on from the person you were when you wrote those?
19:56 I mean, yes and no. I almost feel like touring the second album, I didn't want to play as many
20:03 songs from the first album, but I was still playing a lot. But over time, like I just warmed
20:09 to them in a different way. Like as you get, as you get somewhat more disconnected from that place,
20:16 it almost becomes, at least for me, it's become a little bit more like, um, just easy to, to enjoy.
20:26 And embrace them for what they are, like, rather than feeling like it's a total representation of,
20:32 of me. It's just like, I don't know, people want to hear "Why'd You Feel So Down" at a gig.
20:37 So I'm going to play it.
20:38 Still goes off.
20:39 It still goes off. It's great. Like it's, and I just, I don't know, I see those songs for what
20:44 they, for what they are rather than being like, "Oh, I wouldn't make this now."
20:48 Yeah.
20:49 Like, it's just, it's just fun. And I think the songs are more than just fun. I think I,
20:55 I do feel proud of them still, but you know, you just, you do, your perspective changes, but yeah,
21:00 I feel like I've got to a place where I'm a little bit less cynical with it. And it's just going to,
21:05 the main thing is just, it's going to be really hard to pick a set list. Cause I obviously want
21:08 to play all of the new album on tour, or at least as much of it as I can fit. But then
21:13 it's like, going to be really hard to pick another, say 10, 12, you know, songs, whatever
21:22 it winds up being. Could be, could wind up being 25 dirty songs set list. It's not.
21:27 It's not supposed to be a three hour show at this point.
21:29 It'll be really not. Like a lot, like my first two albums, every song is five minutes.
21:33 It's ridiculous. This new one, they're nice and short.
21:37 It's like, you better believe extended mix.
21:40 Yeah. Well that's staying on the set list. You better believe it has to be on there. But then
21:44 there's a lot that has to be on there. So that's what, that's what I'm worried about, but yeah.
21:49 I'm hopefully we can just keep mixing it up, changing things around because three albums,
21:56 that's a lot of songs. You've got to mix it up.
21:58 And the album cover.
22:00 And that's going to, we'll probably just play that on the speakers.
22:04 How do you sort of build up to that process of like, what songs you're going to choose?
22:09 Is it like a battle of a royal situation or are you quite calm?
22:13 Does it sounds like you've really thought about this?
22:18 No, I haven't really got a set list plan. I don't, I, what tends to happen with the set
22:22 list is I text our touring WhatsApp group, the set list for each show about 45 minutes
22:27 before we go on stage and then it all gets printed off and sort of keyboard tech runs
22:34 to the laptop and like changes anything around that we have changed. But after a couple of
22:41 shows on the tour, you know, songs become friends and they sit next to each other.
22:45 You just kind of move around the structure a little bit or sort one for another here
22:49 and there. Like it's a bit much to change it super dramatically. But yeah, I really,
22:57 I really think it's essential to keep things kind of evolving over the course of the tour
23:02 because otherwise I think I just stopped playing as well. It's music, it should be fun. It
23:10 shouldn't be like, you know, going through the motions. I don't like when it feels like
23:16 that on tour. So who knows what's going to happen is basically what I'm saying.
23:20 And just to wrap things up, when you look back at the process behind making this new album,
23:25 what makes you feel proud of yourself?
23:29 Um, yeah, just the whole thing. I don't know. I guess just that I've proven to myself I
23:41 can execute something else. And, you know, there's songs on there that just feel like
23:45 ones of, you know, the likes of which I've really wanted to write.
23:49 Wobble, the first track is just really something that just feels like one of my favourite songs.
23:58 Like that I could have listened to when I was 17 or 20 or, you know, 25 as I probably
24:06 am when this thing comes out. But like, yeah, just there's stuff that I'm just, you know,
24:15 I've really gone for something and it just fits right now. So that's what I'm proud of,
24:23 really. Long may it continue, I guess. I just, yeah, I just kind of want to carry a little
24:32 bit piece of the ethos that I've had into the future and, you know, just be able to
24:37 use it, use the lessons that you learn in the right places, right? Like not, you know,
24:42 force anything to be something that it doesn't want to be. And that's kind of perhaps what
24:49 I've learned in this process. So I feel very proud of that whole thing. It's good.
24:55 Totally. Well, thanks so much for speaking with us and we'll see you doing the How I
24:58 Down Fairadown on tour. At Alexandra Palace in April sometime or something like that.
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