Archbishop Justin Welby paid a visit to Dudley to visit a church service and talk to parishners.
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00:00 [indistinct chatter]
00:05 Roughly.
00:06 Roughly, yes.
00:07 We have our long-term plan and our priorities as I mentioned them,
00:12 but we really know that they need to be surrounded in prayer, prayed for constantly
00:18 and we want to pray particularly for church renewal and revitalisation.
00:22 Any tips on how best to do that?
00:27 Yes, I suppose from my own mistakes over the years.
00:32 There's an old saying that a lot of you will know,
00:36 you know, general in the 19th century who says,
00:39 "No strategy survives, no plan survives engagement with the enemy."
00:46 Things happen and there was a boxer, a very well-known boxer in the States,
00:50 who said, "Everybody's got a plan until they're punched on the chin."
00:55 Which is an underweight but pretty accurate.
00:59 So I think the great thing as we pray for long-term plans,
01:03 it's an engagement, it's a relationship.
01:05 God's the boss.
01:07 So we come to Him and say, "This is what we're doing."
01:11 But we're always open to God's hand on the wheel to change the course.
01:17 And the one thing I never say is stop praying, but you might say,
01:22 "But we might have a sense that we need to put more effort here and less there,"
01:26 whatever it happens to be.
01:28 And always include prayer and thanksgiving.
01:32 Between each section of my prayers, I spend time saying to God how I love Him
01:40 and how I'm amazed by Him.
01:42 And it's extraordinary that as you think about who God is and what He does,
01:48 how it lifts your spirit.
01:52 And you realize that this is quite a big thing.
01:56 I'm talking to the person who created the universe,
01:59 and I haven't even had to make an appointment.
02:02 And so listen, praise, and give thanks.
02:10 Be really pitilessly honest.
02:14 Look at the Psalms.
02:16 Psalm 44, the big Psalms of protest include or lament, include 22, 44, and 88.
02:30 And if there was 160, 76, whatever it is, 280, 176, I'm sure it would be the same.
02:37 But 22, 44, and 88, in Psalm 44, the psalmist is really fed up with God.
02:48 And he says, or she says, who knows, the psalmist says in Psalm 44,
02:57 "You know, we haven't done anything special wrong, and you seem to have stopped helping us.
03:01 What's up? What have we done wrong?
03:05 Either show us or show up and do something."
03:08 And then you can see, as the psalmist is writing the psalm, they get crosser and crosser.
03:14 You know how sometimes you work yourself up?
03:17 And the psalmist is doing it.
03:19 So they get to about verse 20, 22, somewhere around there, and they say,
03:24 "You know, you're a rubbish businessman.
03:28 You've sold your people, and you haven't even made any money.
03:33 You're just useless."
03:36 And then they go on getting more and more irritated.
03:41 And they get a few verses in, "Are you asleep? Wake up!"
03:46 Now, that's honesty.
03:49 And if it's in the Bible, then it's okay.
03:52 So, be honest.
03:55 You know, I've been to a church regularly six months, and it's only tripled in size.
04:01 Don't you think you can do anything?
04:04 You're meant to be the Lord of the Universe.
04:07 Thank you. That's really helpful, and I'm sure many here will find that helpful.
04:11 I sometimes get frustrated that the people in the church don't pray very much for growth.
04:18 I'm not sure that they want to see growth.
04:21 How can we inspire people and encourage people to pray more for growth in our churches?
04:28 Well, the Bible reading we just had in the Gospels is the last commandment of Jesus in Matthew,
04:35 "Go and make disciples."
04:38 Well, if he says, "Go and make disciples," he's not saying it in order to abandon us.
04:45 So, we pray for growth because we know that that is what God wants.
04:52 And he wants it because he loves the people around him.
04:56 He loves the people of Dutton. He loves everyone in the world, even the really bad ones, the worst ones.
05:03 He loves us even though he knows everything about us.
05:07 And so when we're praying for growth, we know we're praying in the will of God.
05:15 So, that's one thing.
05:18 The second thing is it's the most exciting thing in the world.
05:22 That when you see someone come to know Jesus Christ, and you see their life bit by bit being put in order,
05:32 and that they realize at the end, particularly people towards the end of their lives.
05:38 I was talking to someone at an hospice this morning about someone who works at a hospice.
05:43 Well, my experience for hospices is that this is a vote because people are going to be with God.
05:49 And I remember my mum had a pretty rocky life up and down, spent a lot of time with problems with alcohol.
05:59 And she came back, she was in a state mental hospital when I was about 12, for several months.
06:06 And in that hospital, one of the head chief porter there led her to faith in Christ.
06:13 And she stayed faithful to Christ all the rest of her life. She died last night.
06:19 Last thing I remember I heard clearly that she said was, "I will see God."
06:27 Now, when you're facing death, to say, "I will see God," is about as good as it gets.
06:38 I mean, that is amazing.
06:41 And to have that confidence.
06:43 And so we pray for growth because we want people to get to the end of their lives
06:48 and be full of confidence that this is a step into eternity of love and hope.
06:55 We want people in this world to be full of growth, wanting to reach out to those around.
07:02 And we pray for growth most of all because God gave his son Jesus Christ
07:08 so that everyone could know God and be saved and come to eternal life.
07:36 Just found the Archbishop there. A big topic at the moment is renewal of the church.
07:40 We were talking today about bringing communities back into these beautiful buildings that we find ourselves around.
07:46 Congregations might not be as full as they were previously in some churches.
07:49 Top Church, I think, is very much an exception to that rule.
07:52 People are finding other ways to practice their faith as well.
07:54 What are your hopes for the Church of England in the next few years?
07:57 I think my hopes are that there's more places like Top Church.
08:01 That the Church of England is not built on its bishops, let alone its archbishops, thank goodness.
08:08 It's built on its parishes, its local churches, its chaplains, its hospitals,
08:14 in the armed services, in the prisons, in the universities, the schools.
08:19 And we are seeing literally thousands of new worshipping communities starting and growing like this.
08:28 And I think they will grow and spread.
08:32 The love of Christ is very infectious and very helpful.
08:37 Brilliant. Thank you.
08:39 Do you mind if I just have a very quick...