In this episode of Got People Say, we discuss the concept of cancel culture. What exactly defines cancel culture and is it necessary in certain instances? What more can be done to protect victims of online harms like cancel culture and what legal levers are currently in place to protect victims? Content creators Julie Tan, Mathilda Huang and Kevin Tristan share their personal encounters on the topic with Ms Simran Toor from SG Her Empowerment and host Munah Bagharib.
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00:00 The idea of cancel culture
00:01 I think one big one for me was when I got cancelled
00:06 Do you think it's ever beneficial or appropriate for someone to be cancelled?
00:10 Not cancel culture as in cancel the person but cancel that behaviour
00:25 A lot of people say online harm isn't real harm but how accurate is this statement?
00:30 There's clearly some cases of doxxing
00:33 They managed to find out my condo apartment at that point in time
00:36 To be discussed like by men
00:39 It just feels like why do they have the rights to do it?
00:44 I guess we're going into the idea of cancel culture because that's something that
00:52 is so big in the online realm
00:55 So how would you actually define what cancel culture is?
00:59 I believe it's like a whole mob right coming at you running at you trying to pull you down
01:05 I mean a lot of times we do have friends in the industry who
01:08 were being cancelled and stuff like that and when they were going through certain saga or anything
01:12 like a lot of times we just kind of like we hide
01:16 because we're afraid that if we have a stand then they will cancel us too
01:22 But actually why are we so afraid of having a stand?
01:25 Cancelling someone to the stage where you send emails to the clients like
01:30 "Hey you shouldn't be using this person because this person may be going through a certain saga"
01:35 Like is it necessary?
01:37 I think one big one for me was when I got cancelled for doing a commercial
01:45 They put out a commercial with a big name with myself in it as well
01:49 and basically they put on with context in the commercial it makes a lot of sense
01:54 They cut short the advertisement for like smaller advertisements to put out
01:59 one version on a social media platform that was just me dancing in a kurta
02:04 So when they did that it was just 15 seconds of me dancing in the traditional Indian costume
02:09 Everyone was like "You are racist"
02:11 "You like how dare you like culturally appropriate like my culture"
02:16 "Why were you hired? You're not even Indian"
02:18 You know for yourself you're so strong in your own beliefs and you're like "I am a good person"
02:22 But just getting in and out people telling you you are bad for this you are bad
02:27 You start questioning yourself
02:28 You start going "Maybe I am racist"
02:30 "Maybe I am a bad person I don't even realize"
02:33 The commercial also didn't really defend the artists
02:36 And it hurts it sucks because I was the face of that commercial
02:40 My head was planted on it
02:41 So it looked like my idea it looked like I decided to do all this
02:44 But it was a commercial I was asked to do all these things
02:47 And that's the problem with an online platform
02:50 A lot of people just choose to not see things
02:52 Choose to not look at the full picture
02:54 And they just choose to pinpoint little things and go "You are a bad person for this"
02:59 If you apologize you may see insincere
03:01 And if you don't it might even come off as like "Oh, Act Blur lived longer"
03:06 It's like you just want it to pass
03:08 And then it's like why aren't you speaking up about it?
03:10 You know it's you can't please everyone
03:13 What do you feel like you needed from supporters, friends, family?
03:18 I feel like the only thing that I needed was people to ground me
03:24 Because I would constantly look online and be like
03:28 "Look what everyone's saying about me"
03:30 The likes go up like the likes of that comment not the likes of the video
03:34 The like of that hate comment keeps going up
03:37 And you're like "Ah they're agreeing everyone thinks I'm racist"
03:40 I was so tired of pleasing people
03:43 A lot of times now we are encouraged to speak up when we see something wrong
03:46 And there's nothing wrong inherently with that
03:48 We should speak up when we see something wrong
03:50 But we have to balance that with the "Do I have the full information?"
03:55 Am I speaking up with the right context?
03:58 But I feel like because it's online
04:00 People are very just confident to either write on the previous comment that says "This is wrong"
04:04 And then you know it creates momentum
04:05 But I think if we just take a step to say "Do I have the full information?"
04:09 Maybe I'll reach out directly to the content creator
04:12 To find out what happened
04:13 Can I see the full video?
04:14 But I think we haven't got that balance
04:16 Which is why people are just happy to say "Wrong, wrong, wrong"
04:19 If everyone can just stop and say "Wait a minute"
04:21 "Do I have enough information to take a stand?"
04:24 Then you take a stand
04:25 Do you think only content creators or influencers get cancelled?
04:29 No, I think right now today as long as you have a phone
04:32 You are putting yourself out there
04:35 You are exposed to online harm
04:36 So I think it's really important for every single one to be equipped with the skill set
04:41 To learn how to protect yourself
04:43 Like your own settings right
04:44 For your social medias
04:45 You can restrict certain comments
04:47 Certain words that may trigger you
04:49 Or that you commonly see in your hate comments
04:51 Like a lot of platforms nowadays have that functionality
04:55 That we should learn how to take full advantage of
04:58 Do you feel like there's ever an instance where
05:00 You unintentionally or intentionally harm someone online?
05:06 Yeah, definitely
05:07 Like I have a case
05:09 Back then I was involved in a saga
05:12 And I have people coming at me
05:14 And then before finding out the whole situation
05:18 I actually jumped on social media
05:20 And I posted a story
05:21 I didn't say who
05:22 But it was very obvious that who my post was directing to
05:26 And because I was feeling emotional about that whole incident
05:30 And then I did that
05:31 And I think for that I would want to take this opportunity to say I'm sorry
05:34 And to be fully accountable of my own actions
05:39 Because I believe at certain stages of our life
05:41 We definitely make mistakes
05:42 We hurt people
05:43 I feel that because a lot of our friends are in the industry
05:45 So we feel for them on that very emotional aspect already
05:49 It's like, "Hey, I know you as a person
05:50 You would never do this right?"
05:52 So when I try and stand up for some people
05:55 When they're in the midst of getting cancelled
05:57 I don't know whether it's really helping them
05:59 It might be adding even more unnecessary comments on there
06:02 It's like a double-edged sword right?
06:03 Yeah, double-edged sword
06:04 So it's like, you don't know
06:05 Should you support them?
06:06 Which you should
06:06 Like maybe in private
06:08 But not online
06:08 I don't know
06:09 Do you think it's ever beneficial or appropriate for someone to be cancelled?
06:14 I think there's no need to really cancel anyone
06:18 If there's anything criminal, leave it to the law
06:22 To some extent, it's quite necessary
06:24 When it comes to scenarios that cannot be reasoned with
06:29 Right?
06:30 Rape, murder, right?
06:32 All these kind of things that we can all agree that it's bad things
06:37 Not cancel culture as in cancel the person
06:39 But cancel that behaviour
06:40 That no, we shouldn't be allowing this to happen
06:43 In a more social media setting
06:45 No need to really ruin someone's life over a silly post
06:50 Or something that was beyond their control as well
06:53 People can be told when they're doing something wrong
06:57 I again, don't agree that their whole life should depend on it
07:00 And suddenly like, they can't have a future
07:02 I'm sure everyone has seen other people get cancelled
07:05 And you see them just struggle to put rice on their table
07:08 For some people, it really just affects their whole life
07:11 They can't move on from it
07:13 I think the problem with cancel culture
07:15 Canceling a person rather than cancelling the behaviour
07:18 Is that it's a disproportionate response
07:20 It doesn't just say you committed this one murder
07:23 Therefore you will pay for the murder
07:24 It is like you will forever never hold the job
07:26 And then you have to give up all your friends and your family
07:28 And your family also have to give up their friends and family
07:30 And maybe jobs, right?
07:32 You can just punish the person for that act
07:34 So it's okay if you want to say something
07:36 About someone has done something wrong like murder
07:39 You can say something
07:40 I don't think murder is right
07:41 But the part where you start to flex out
07:43 Into the rest of this person's life
07:45 Then that is disproportionate
07:47 And I don't think that should happen
07:48 The problem with this online, putting yourself online now
07:52 Is that everyone feels like they're your teacher now
07:55 If you do something wrong
07:56 Everyone feels like they need to speak up
07:58 And to suddenly be called out by everyone
08:00 Is also not the easiest and the best way to learn
08:03 And in saying that, do you feel like cancelled culture
08:06 Has made it scarier to put your genuine opinions online?
08:11 For sure, for sure
08:12 I feel like every content creator
08:14 Or anyone in the social world can agree that
08:18 Sometimes they will want to put something out
08:20 And you're like, wait
08:20 Will this offend someone?
08:22 Will I get cancelled for it?
08:24 That in itself is the way that you're trying to censor yourself
08:28 As a content creator, right?
08:29 Trying to say, okay, we're definitely not going to talk about some things
08:32 So personally for myself
08:33 I will focus on the content that I like to put out
08:35 I won't speak on topics that I personally have no knowledge of
08:40 Because I'm here to learn
08:41 Did you know at that point of time
08:43 That there were laws that you could turn to for these sort of incidents?
08:49 Did you go to a lawyer or to police for these incidents?
08:52 I personally did not
08:55 So to the forum where there was a 20-page discussion, right
09:01 About my body
09:02 I only wrote in with my ex-partner to the forum owners
09:06 And explained that, hey, they seem to be doxing my address
09:09 And revealing it on a public platform
09:12 I think that's wrong
09:12 So that was like my one token, right
09:17 To be able to take it down in that sense
09:19 As much as it was hurting me
09:20 I didn't think it was worth like bringing it into a whole situation
09:25 Do I really need to involve everyone with this?
09:29 With these situations, what could have been done?
09:32 Could they have turned to the law?
09:34 So in a typical lawyer answer, I'll tell you
09:37 The answer is not straightforward
09:38 So you would go to the police if it's a criminal offence
09:42 That's the only thing the police can help you with
09:44 So let's say something like someone calls me chubby
09:47 It's not a criminal offence
09:48 Even if I went to the police
09:49 They'll say it's nothing I can really do
09:51 Then of course there's the whole other array of different types of harms
09:56 Like harassment, cancelling
09:57 What you can do is if you go to see a lawyer
10:00 They will tell you maybe what your legal rights are
10:03 You know, okay if it's harassment
10:05 There's something called the Prevention of Harassment Act
10:08 You can go to court, it's self-help
10:09 Get some court orders to stop this person harassing you
10:12 Of course it takes time, right
10:14 You have to do things like fill in affidavits
10:16 Go to court for all the applications
10:18 Understandably, most people in a situation like this
10:21 It's very painful, right
10:22 Your instinct is I just want to stop the pain
10:25 I want a swift and permanent end to it, right
10:28 And so granted the legal process may not be as fast and permanent as you like
10:35 So I can understand why it's not everyone's first option
10:39 But these days the good news is that a lot of major social media platforms
10:43 They are developing their in-app reporting process
10:47 To be a bit more sophisticated, a bit more responsive
10:50 So that one, as soon as it happens to you, you can report
10:53 I don't think that's the perfect solution yet
10:55 Because if some, let's say someone is harassing you
10:57 You take down that profile tomorrow if you really want to
10:59 So he'll like the hydra come up with another one, right
11:02 I mean there are legal clinics available
11:05 Where you can go and see the lawyers for free
11:07 One of them is at the She Cares at SAWO Help Centre
11:10 And one of the other things we offer there is a counselling service actually
11:14 Which is very well taken up
11:16 It is so painful and difficult and traumatic to go through something like this
11:20 Sometimes I think for people who don't have that strong support system
11:25 The impact can be quite serious
11:27 I really think that we can be a bit innovative
11:32 And look at how people prefer to have this resolved
11:35 Which is fast and permanent
11:37 And maybe come up with something a little more innovative
11:39 If you, let's say, wanted to seek damages from a person
11:43 Now I go to court, I must prove all the receipts
11:45 I had to go and see a counsellor 10 times, cost me $5,000
11:48 But if you can automatically say as long as you've done this
11:52 This post has gone up, I automatically get $5,000
11:54 That could make things faster, I'm just giving an example
11:57 Money doesn't solve everything
11:59 And that would discourage things
12:00 So things like that I think we can think about
12:03 I mean I'm just really worried about people normalising this, right
12:07 So having your internal compass is one thing, right
12:09 But then saying, okay lah, it just happens all the time
12:12 It's just another Tuesday, it's just another naked picture in my inbox
12:15 Just because it happens all the time
12:17 I think we still have to bear in mind that this isn't right
12:20 And we shouldn't get to a point where the online culture is just
12:24 Really, nobody, you know, follows any rules
12:27 I want to say yes, you should know yourself as a person
12:31 But know that there's a limit as well
12:33 So I feel that if there are persistent threats, right, to you
12:36 And you feel it's getting unsafe
12:38 Like it's getting to the point where you feel threatened
12:41 I think it's a good practice to keep receipts, keep any screenshots
12:46 We can't just hide all the time
12:47 And that option to take action is still in front of us
12:50 And another general test we can apply is
12:54 Would I do this in the real world?
12:56 Or in the case of cancelling, would you gather a group of 100 people
13:00 With pitchforks and fire and go to their house
13:02 And you know, you wouldn't do that
13:04 Yeah, so if you can't do it in the real world
13:08 Then don't do it online
13:10 Rule of thumb
13:10 Thank you all for joining us in this compelling conversation
13:14 About Singapore's digital landscape
13:16 From the darker corners of cyber harassment and cyber bullying
13:20 To the grey areas of cancel culture
13:22 We've tackled it head on tonight
13:25 A heartfelt thank you to our participants
13:28 Who shared their own experiences
13:30 And special thanks to Ms Simran Tur
13:32 For providing us with expert insights
13:35 Their contributions not only debunk myths
13:38 But also enlighten us about the real tangible effects of online harm
13:43 The discussion we've had tonight challenged the notion
13:46 That online harm isn't real harm
13:48 Anonymity can serve as a veil
13:50 But as we've seen, it can be misused to harmful ends
13:55 So what's the takeaway?
13:56 Awareness is the first line of defence
13:59 Let's transform our online spaces to be as inviting and respectful
14:04 As a local kopitiam chatar
14:06 Diverse yet meaningful discourse
14:08 Got any thoughts?
14:09 We want to hear them
14:10 Share your opinions
14:11 And stay tuned for our next episode of God People Say
14:14 Thank you guys
14:16 Thank you
14:17 Thank you!
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