President Kagame boldly confronts Criticism on Rwanda's Human Rights Record

IGIHE

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Transcript

00:00 Is there really a situation where you have one and not the other?

00:06 And what would be the meaning?

00:09 Because on one hand, on human indexes, you are scoring fine.

00:19 What does that mean? It's already human.

00:24 You are giving people more health, you are giving people more food,

00:28 they are not starving, you are giving them security.

00:36 And it's not, by the way, it's not dishing it out to them.

00:42 They are part of it.

00:45 These things happen because they are involved, they are part of it.

00:49 There is security because they are part of it.

00:52 This production, because they are part of it.

00:58 It can't be by a leader or leaders and then minus the people.

01:03 Then you don't get there.

01:07 Everything you mentioned is about accountability, fight corruption.

01:15 Sometimes people associate corruption with freedom.

01:22 You are even free to be corrupt.

01:26 You are free to steal.

01:28 Here we are saying, no, no, no, you are not free.

01:33 You are accountable, especially when it comes to leaders.

01:38 When you are holding resources in your hands for the people,

01:43 and the only reason you have resources in your hands,

01:46 these are not your money.

01:48 This is money from the people and for the people.

01:51 So if you steal it and do nothing for them, the courts will take care of you.

01:58 We insist on that.

02:02 And of course, because of that, by the way, we have produced so many people

02:09 who are sort of disgruntled, and a number of them,

02:14 some have been even escaping the country and going abroad.

02:20 Somebody has a file here in court for stealing everything that was meant for the people he was leading,

02:28 and then they go to London, meets the media, and it is everywhere,

02:35 and the Guardian and everything, oh, this person is being persecuted by the Kagame regime.

02:42 This is a common thing.

02:45 But this man is just a thief, an absolute thief.

02:51 So in other words, some of these things, the way they have happened,

02:58 and that is a narrative you are referring to,

03:03 there is a narrative of progress on one hand, which I said, it can't happen simply.

03:14 You will tell me where you know it has happened.

03:18 But things are moving so well for people and by these people,

03:26 but then there is everything lacking in the system about their freedom, about their human rights.

03:33 I just don't understand.

03:37 The good thing about all this nonsense being said, unfortunately, is it's not like mathematics.

03:49 You add up things, you multiply, you do this, and there is an expected,

03:57 you know, what you get out if you get it right.

04:00 It's what it is.

04:02 But here, you add up things and then you end up with some result that is dependent,

04:08 that is subjective, that is dependent on the judgment of a journalist

04:15 or a human rights person or somebody, even when things don't add up.

04:22 So in fact, we have had, by the way, a lot of discussions with these institutions,

04:30 with the countries where these people are based, and we have a list of people.

04:37 And what makes it simple and clear is, for example, what I have just said.

04:47 People who have gone after committing crimes here, including those who killed people here, by the way,

04:55 they go there, they play a political card, a freedom, a democracy card,

05:04 and they say, "No, you see, I am here, I am seeking asylum."

05:08 And they say, "Because they are being persecuted."

05:13 "You are a murderer who killed people here and then you are being persecuted? How?"

05:19 And we show it to these people who make such a noise.

05:24 We say, "Okay, you relate to these things."

05:28 This person, this is the file that was worked on, completed.

05:34 It is waiting for prosecution.

05:39 And the person is here, he told you lies, that he escaped from the police,

05:44 they were looking for him, they were going to kill him because he said something,

05:50 or because he is fighting for democracy.

06:00 So how do you marry these two things? How do you explain it?

06:07 We have a case, in fact, it is one case but it involves people.

06:14 There are people who left here, like 20 years.

06:20 This case that has been going on in the UK of genociders who know.

06:26 >> Why? >> Sorry?

06:28 >> Why genocides? >> Yes, who are known, well known.

06:31 The victims are here, the people whose families were killed by these guys are here.

06:36 Everybody knows the story.

06:39 But these guys have been in the UK protected and they went into politics

06:46 and started talking about how this Tutsi government,

06:51 they are telling people to shut up, they do this.

06:56 This case has been going on for 15 years.

07:02 And we asked the government, we said, "Okay."

07:08 They first said, "We can't send you these cases because we requested."

07:12 We said, "You give us these people, we go and prosecute them in the court of law."

07:17 And they said, "No, no, no, we can't give them to you,

07:21 we are not sure about your courts, your judiciary, and so on and so forth."

07:27 We said, "Okay, you have a right to have doubts about us.

07:33 We just give you the files and you try these guys in your courts."

07:39 And they can't do that either.

07:42 So you have so many--there are many cases like this.

07:45 And we tell these people, "What do you want us to do?"

07:50 What we are saying is that these people have cases to answer.

07:54 I'm now away from that case.

07:56 There are others elsewhere.

07:58 We say, "You don't believe us. That's okay.

08:04 You have a working judiciary in your country, your developed country.

08:12 Let us give you what we are saying.

08:18 You have these people in your hands.

08:21 Try them against this.

08:23 You find them innocent, let them go.

08:25 We shall know that you have found them innocent and that's okay."

08:29 They can't do that. Why?

08:32 Because some of them exactly want to keep that story running

08:37 of how bad everything is here.

08:43 But the simple question I asked was,

08:47 "Surely you can't say there is a whole list of things that we are getting right

08:54 and we are showing, and then you say, 'But'."

09:01 How do I explain that?

09:03 Because these things don't add up.

09:06 Now, are there things that go wrong here in the country?

09:11 Absolutely.

09:13 That one, I can't say that nothing goes wrong here.

09:19 But where does it not go wrong?

09:24 Or if I were to ask the same people who make judgment,

09:29 if you were to ask me, say,

09:32 "These people are saying Rwanda, you are like this, you are like this,"

09:35 I say, "Okay, guilty as charged.

09:39 Do you want me to show you what is worse these same people are accusing me of doing?"

09:48 That does not happen.

09:51 Because of where I started from earlier,

09:55 it's like, "Do as I say, don't do as I do."

10:06 This saying is very old, it's not by me.

10:10 So that's what is involved in what we are talking about.

10:15 Every single day you tell us, "Oh, you are doing this."

10:20 Sometimes, by the way, you are supposed to believe what they are saying about you.

10:26 You're not even supposed to question or protest.

10:33 But at the same time, you are talking about freedoms.

10:38 But you don't allow me the freedom to answer back

10:41 or to say you are telling lies

10:44 or actually what you are saying is not true.

10:47 Then who is violating freedoms more than the other?

10:53 You are exactly doing what you are denying me to do.

10:58 You don't want me to explain my case.

11:02 And then you turn it around, actually, and say,

11:06 "You see, Rwanda does not want or does not like criticism."

11:14 But you don't like criticism because when I'm explaining to you,

11:18 then you are laboring me as not liking criticism.

11:22 But you are exactly depicting me in that light

11:26 because you think I shouldn't be answering back

11:29 or asking or raising questions about what you are saying about me.

11:34 You are just denying people freedom.

11:37 This freedom, democracy, people have turned it into something,

11:44 a subjective tool just to use.

11:48 If you have a voice, you have media, you have power, you have money,

11:55 then you are controlling this.

11:58 Everybody is supposed to accept what you are saying there

12:02 and what you are saying they are doing,

12:05 whether it is right or wrong, whether it is true or not.

12:09 This is the problem.

12:12 I'm glad you actually raised this question

12:15 because it's been there for many years.

12:19 It is still there as we speak.

12:27 Because if you hear people, some people, it's not all of them,

12:34 I think many understand what they say about Rwanda.

12:38 They think this is the worst country you have on earth.

12:43 But then sometimes, in another circumstance,

12:47 they are telling a good story about Rwanda.

12:50 They say, "Oh, Rwanda thinks, 'Oh, this, this, this, this.'"

12:55 So how do these two contradict?

12:59 In fact, the contradiction is more in that than what you stated earlier.

13:05 The contradiction is, how do you say,

13:09 this on this side, so much is wrong and bad,

13:13 but on the other, there is so much that is good that is happening.

13:18 But these things that are good are happening by who?

13:26 It is the same people you are saying.

13:30 I mean, somebody is not hungry,

13:34 a family is not hungry,

13:39 they are able to send children to school, to study,

13:44 then they have security, nobody tampers with them.

13:52 But you say, except they lack the freedom.

13:57 Which freedom?

14:00 Somebody is already having freedom to leave, to be there.

14:05 You saw the Rwandan is living now on average up to 60 something.

14:20 Why would a country invest in that, only to deny the same person?

14:27 Does it really make sense? Does it add up?

14:31 It doesn't, for me, it doesn't add up.

14:40 But, by the way, the same complaints that are being raised about Rwanda now,

14:51 not even a fraction of it was raised against the government

15:02 that murdered one million people here.

15:06 Meaning, they had the freedom.

15:11 They had everything maybe, but really?

15:17 The Rwanda of 30 years ago?

15:24 Did it have freedom? Did it have democracy?

15:29 Now, sometimes I say, for lack of a better way to say it,

15:38 there are two things.

15:40 One I am blamed for, another I am praised for.

15:45 These are two things.

15:48 Surely this can't be worse than a situation that doesn't have either.

15:57 You know that? You understand what I'm saying?

16:03 There are people who may, as I know, in fact, there are many people

16:09 who have no freedoms and democracies we are talking about,

16:13 and have nothing of that I'm being praised for.

16:17 So who is worse off?

16:19 At least I have one.

16:24 Then I can keep struggling to deal with the other one and improving on it.

16:29 But at least I have secured one.

16:33 But really, you have a situation where, which we know, you and me and anybody else,

16:39 nothing we are talking about exists in this place.

16:44 But surprisingly, because of maybe how they are used to serve certain interests,

16:52 those who set the standards, we may end up actually being praised.

17:02 I wouldn't name names here, but I have names in my mind I could give examples of,

17:08 but I won't say it, I won't do it.

17:12 People, even other people, say, 'What do you think you are doing?

17:20 You have so much, but in the end it has not transformed the people either way,

17:33 either by development or by these subjective things we are talking about.'

17:40 But yet the resources are incredible.

17:44 But those ones, nobody will talk about them,

17:47 because the same people who set these standards and define us

17:56 are in between helping themselves with these resources.

18:04 This is how the world seems to operate, as I understand it.

18:12 [MUSIC PLAYING]

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