Taso Du Val, Chief Executive Officer, Toptal Renée McGowan, Chief Executive Officer, India, Middle East & Africa, Marsh McLennan In conversation with: Ruth Umoh, FORTUNE
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00:00 As a changing subject, over the past several years,
00:02 there has been a massive change in the way we work,
00:05 triggered in large part by the pandemic
00:08 and its after effects.
00:10 Now there's another transformation underway,
00:12 one prompted by rapid advancements in technology,
00:16 including generative AI.
00:19 Expectation for Gen AI's impact
00:22 among C-suite executives are high.
00:25 According to a recent McKinsey and Company survey,
00:28 three quarters of all respondents expect generative AI
00:33 to cause significant or disruptive change
00:36 to their industries in the next three years.
00:39 There's concern and some excitement
00:42 about what these changes could mean for workers.
00:46 While there is no replacement for some tasks
00:48 that are considered uniquely human,
00:51 there are functions that technology can enhance
00:54 or replace completely,
00:56 freeing up staffers for more important duties.
01:00 So next, we're going to talk about the future of work
01:03 and how business leaders can harness the power
01:06 of innovative technologies while improving the experience
01:10 and productivity of their workers.
01:13 Tasso Duval is the founder and CEO of Toptal,
01:17 and Rene McGowan is CEO of Marsh McLennan India,
01:21 Middle East and Africa.
01:23 They join Fortune leadership editor, Ruth Umo,
01:27 for this conversation.
01:28 (upbeat music)
01:32 Good morning, everyone.
01:46 Thank you so much for joining us
01:48 and welcome to the both of you.
01:49 Delighted to have you at Fortune Global Forum.
01:52 Thank you for joining.
01:53 Hi Tasso.
01:54 - Quick reminder for the audience,
01:55 we will be taking questions from you all.
01:58 So do keep that in mind as we kick off today's conversation.
02:01 Rene, lots to discuss.
02:02 So let's kick things off with you.
02:04 AI will and already is fundamentally reshaping
02:08 nearly every aspect of the way we work.
02:11 How will artificial intelligence
02:13 and related new technologies impact the future of work?
02:15 What are you seeing at this point?
02:17 - So we do a lot of work with Mesa and Risa.
02:21 - Guys, what happened?
02:23 - No.
02:24 - Well done.
02:27 Thank you for not laughing.
02:28 - Oh, we didn't use the images
02:30 'cause we didn't get on top of the conversation.
02:32 - I think there is a microphone issue.
02:34 Can you, can you please?
02:35 All right.
02:39 - I think they did not.
02:40 - They don't do.
02:42 - All right.
02:43 - Passing around.
02:43 - Well, a few technological issues.
02:45 Please bear with us, but do, my apologies.
02:47 - I'll start again.
02:48 So AI is definitely changing jobs,
02:50 but it's also changing work.
02:52 So what we're talking about and what we're studying
02:55 and working with clients at Mercer is how is that changing?
02:58 First up is that it is changing the nature of work.
03:01 And that's where we talk about jobs, skills, processes,
03:05 the work that we're doing every day.
03:07 It changes the workforce.
03:09 So starting to think about what's the workforce
03:11 that you're going to need, and in particular,
03:13 what are the skills that you're going to need
03:15 into the future?
03:17 And that's something that is fairly embryonic
03:19 for a lot of large organisations in particular.
03:22 And then the third thing is that the future of work
03:24 will change the organisation.
03:26 So these hierarchical structures that typify
03:29 a lot of large organisations around the world
03:31 will ultimately be replaced with structures
03:34 that will be far more agile,
03:36 there'll be far more fluidity of people doing tasks
03:39 and skills.
03:40 And so that's going to be this fundamental change
03:43 that's actually going to materialise,
03:45 not just the way that we work,
03:46 but the way that our organisations are structured
03:48 and perhaps social structures as well.
03:50 - Yeah, you have a front row seat given your role at TopDol.
03:54 So you mentioned skills earlier,
03:55 what skills have been elevated, given a premium due to AI,
03:59 and conversely, what skills have been downgraded?
04:01 - Well, there are a variety of skills that relate
04:03 to the new AI fields, I suppose, you could label it as such.
04:08 And those are all still developing.
04:12 And so the role of a chief AI officer
04:17 or a similar type of role is a new role
04:20 that didn't even exist two years ago.
04:23 Now companies are hiring C-levels
04:27 who are introducing AI strategy into the organisation.
04:32 And those individuals are responsible
04:35 for increasing the productivity of all the workers
04:39 in the organisation, particularly at the operational level.
04:42 And so what we've done at TopDol, just as one example,
04:47 is we worked with Hearst to be able to help them
04:51 with their operational strategy
04:54 and how AI interplays with that,
04:57 even having them hire one of our talent
05:00 to become one of their C-levels
05:02 to instantiate an AI strategy within that organisation.
05:06 And you're seeing that across all different types
05:09 of large organisations globally, we're helping to lead that.
05:13 But all of the other consulting companies are as well
05:17 to be able to look at where are the operational problems,
05:21 where are the AI opportunities,
05:24 and how do we actually ensure
05:26 that those challenges are solved through AI?
05:29 - Yeah, we'll soon circle back on that.
05:30 I do wanna go back to you, Rene,
05:32 looking at the intersection between AI and human capital.
05:35 Based on Marsh McLennan research,
05:37 it seems to me as though HR leaders in particular
05:41 are ill-equipped and maybe much of the C-suite
05:43 are ill-equipped to navigate this new era
05:45 of human collaboration with AI.
05:47 Why is that?
05:48 What needs to change in the immediate short term?
05:50 - Yeah, it's fascinating.
05:52 So Mercer has done a number of studies in this case.
05:55 CEOs are focused on AI.
05:57 So in our latest study, about 40% of CEOs are considering AI
06:02 and considering how it will fundamentally
06:04 change their business.
06:06 Interestingly though, the HR departments
06:09 in those organisations are not as focused on it.
06:11 So less than 14% of HR departments
06:14 have any specific dedicated focus on AI.
06:18 And so what's standing up is this momentum around AI,
06:21 the impact on jobs.
06:22 Of course, employees are hearing that jobs will be eliminated
06:25 and these types of things.
06:27 Organisations are starting to think about where it impacts,
06:31 but the HR departments that will actually be important
06:33 for helping to change that workforce
06:37 do not have as much focus on it.
06:38 And that could be a big gap that's emerging.
06:40 - Yeah, let's talk about that job obsoletion
06:42 and whether it's warranted.
06:44 One thing that I hear a lot of people say in this space
06:47 is that AI will remove a lot of those rote, tedious tasks.
06:51 One thing I have noted, and especially in the US,
06:53 is a number of corporations have this apprenticeship model
06:56 wherein entry-level employees or interns
06:59 really get their feet wet by doing some of those repetitive
07:02 and in-road tasks.
07:04 And so do you see a future in which companies use AI
07:08 to replace junior level employees
07:10 and what's the impact on future generations of professionals?
07:13 I'd love to hear the both of your thoughts on that.
07:15 - Sure.
07:16 Certainly a lot of alarmist statistics out there
07:18 about the number of jobs that will be eliminated,
07:21 but the same sort of alarmist statistics
07:22 that have happened with every technological revolution,
07:25 I think, along the way.
07:26 No doubt about it, AI will eliminate
07:29 mundane routine type tasks.
07:32 I think talking about sort of taking out a category
07:36 of a workforce, that early entry career level,
07:39 isn't the way that we'll be thinking about it though.
07:41 I think we'll be thinking about,
07:42 as you're coming into your career, in your early career,
07:45 what are the skills that you're going to need to learn
07:48 and how do we expose you to those skills
07:50 throughout the organisation to map to,
07:54 either the leadership models or the technical models
07:56 that we need into the future.
07:58 So I think it's about redeployment
08:01 and thinking about work differently.
08:04 - I'm sure everyone is familiar with the BCG study
08:09 that was corroborated by Harvard,
08:11 where the consultants at BCG were greatly improved
08:15 in terms of their productivity
08:17 once they started using generative AI.
08:19 And so the immediate impact I see is the reduction
08:24 of workforce in areas that AI, generative AI namely,
08:30 can actually impact directly and has proven track record
08:35 in improving the efficiency in those areas.
08:38 Consultants are one of those,
08:39 but that doesn't mean consultants are going to go away.
08:41 It means that they're just going to be made more efficient.
08:44 And so you'll need less consultants to be able to do
08:47 the types of work that a consultant does.
08:49 - Yeah, staying on you, in a now widely viewed interview
08:54 with British Prime Minister, Rishi Sunak,
08:57 Elon Musk said that AI is the most disruptive force
08:59 in human history.
09:00 It's smarter than the smartest human.
09:02 And as a result, he envisions a future
09:05 wherein people don't need jobs.
09:08 They might have jobs just for personal satisfaction,
09:11 but AI will be able to do everything.
09:13 So jobs will not be a necessity.
09:15 Do you share those sentiments?
09:16 Curious to hear your reaction to that.
09:18 - Well, if it could do my job, that would be great.
09:20 - You and me both.
09:21 - But I don't see a future anytime too soon
09:26 where AI is going to be able to do all the executive level
09:31 functions and tasks that are needed.
09:33 And it's currently in a state where it's still hallucinating
09:38 on rather mundane tasks.
09:39 And so I think we'll get there maybe eventually,
09:44 but I'm not sure in my lifetime.
09:46 - I think it's an episode of Black Mirror for sure,
09:52 but I'd have to agree.
09:53 I don't think so in my lifetime.
09:55 AI will just augment the work that we do.
09:58 And executive functioning should also be also changing,
10:01 evolving in there.
10:03 So I think that we'll see a whole new range of jobs.
10:06 We'll see a whole new range of jobs
10:07 that will be augmented by AI.
10:11 I don't see work, if you like, disappearing entirely.
10:14 - Quickly, one question.
10:17 Does anyone have a question in the audience?
10:18 Raise your hand and then Mike Handler will run to you.
10:21 Anyone at all?
10:22 All right, let's keep the conversation going then.
10:25 I wanna talk about the skills gap.
10:27 While most CEOs say that AI advancements
10:32 is of utmost importance,
10:33 they do acknowledge, significantly,
10:36 High Share admits that they do find those efforts
10:39 hampered by a lack of suitable employees
10:43 with the understanding and expertise in this field.
10:45 What's the solution here to address the global skills gap?
10:48 - I'll hand over in just a moment
10:52 because I think Tasi will be well-placed
10:55 to talk about this.
10:56 No doubt organizations around the world
10:59 are grappling with skills.
11:01 As we think about AI,
11:03 there seems to be two camps of organization.
11:05 Those that are focused on it for productivity use
11:07 and they're looking at the skills
11:08 that will deliver that immediate productivity improvement,
11:12 if you like.
11:14 It's probably a smaller number of organizations
11:16 that are looking more holistically
11:17 at how this AI will actually impact their business,
11:20 their business model, their distribution,
11:23 or their customer base.
11:25 As you get into that second camp,
11:26 and more organizations will obviously need to,
11:29 the skill need increases enormously.
11:32 Mercer and Marshall McLennan are doing some work
11:35 with organizations at the moment
11:37 to map those skills that they need in the future,
11:40 but it's going to be a pathway to getting there,
11:42 and there is going to be a specific demand
11:44 for specific skills,
11:46 which I think, certainly, Tasi,
11:47 you can talk to at the moment.
11:49 - So a very interesting finding
11:52 from doing a fair amount of C-level consulting work
11:57 with large companies and their AI strategies
12:02 and how they're working to implement AI in general
12:06 is the finding that the new skill set
12:10 is not really the issue.
12:12 It's really teaching people who are within the organization
12:14 how to leverage AI and taking the current folks
12:18 who are either running operations
12:21 or running different functions,
12:23 how to make sure their function is leveraging AI
12:27 most appropriately.
12:28 And so that finding was a bit surprising to me
12:32 because I think most, like a lot of folks,
12:35 you would think, okay, we need a new person
12:38 or a new set of folks to create AI strategies
12:43 and execute on them.
12:43 In fact, it's a small group that enables everyone
12:47 to leverage AI, and those efficiencies from that strategy
12:52 really in order to the benefit of the organization.
12:55 And so not focusing so much on the new skill sets
12:59 that need to be brought into the organization,
13:01 but really how to augment folks
13:03 who are currently working there
13:04 and just enable them to have a sidekick
13:07 or a generative AI component to their work
13:10 that they can use fluidly
13:12 that really helps drive efficiency in their work.
13:15 - Yeah, to your point,
13:15 I am seeing an enhanced focus on reskilling
13:18 and upskilling employees.
13:20 And I think one part of that as a financial aspect
13:23 is considerably cheaper than finding new hires,
13:26 but it does still require a sizable investment
13:29 in driving some of those efforts.
13:30 So what metrics should organizations use
13:33 to measure the success of reskilling initiatives,
13:36 upskilling initiatives,
13:37 and really the integration of AI in the workplace?
13:40 - Adoption of sidekicks or these new types of tools
13:45 and the outcomes from those.
13:51 What you find in generative AI,
13:55 especially within coding or some other areas
13:58 that it's being heavily leveraged in
14:01 is that there are certain folks
14:03 who are really proficient at using it
14:05 and certain folks who are not.
14:06 And the reasons underlying that are often quite surprising.
14:10 It has to do, in fact, in large part as we've seen,
14:14 with the psychology of the user.
14:16 If a user thinks they're more expert,
14:18 they're actually likely to be less proficient
14:21 at using the AI because they're not going to ask
14:24 the relevant questions.
14:25 And so teaching folks how to use AI
14:29 in a way that inures to the benefit of the organization
14:32 and having feedback loops to be able to know
14:35 whether that's being successful or not is critical.
14:38 - Yeah, for the last 10 seconds,
14:39 how do you incentivize the adoption of AI
14:42 and get employees to explore its many possibilities?
14:45 - I think you've got to incentivize it with enthusiasm
14:47 and with transparency around what the organization's
14:49 doing.
14:50 People will be scared if the organization
14:52 isn't being open and transparent
14:54 and also enthusiastic about it.
14:56 And so that has to be the critical piece.
14:58 Ultimately, we'll get to pay for skills
15:00 and we're seeing some organizations move to there,
15:03 but that's going to come over the next few years.
15:04 - Yeah, very well said.
15:05 Tasso, Renee, thank you so much for your time.
15:07 Next up is Fortune Media CEO, Alan Murray.
15:10 Thank you.
15:11 - Thank you.
15:12 (silence)
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