In this edition of Brussels, my love? we discuss EU diplomacy in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and talk about Spanish politics after the passage of a controversial amnesty law.
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00:00 Hello and welcome to Brussels, my love, our weekly talk show about European affairs, where
00:18 we take a look at some stories that hit the headlines this week and find out what is at
00:22 stake for you and Europe.
00:24 I'm your host, Stephan Grover, sitting in for Maeve MacMahon.
00:29 Thank you for joining us here on the set, on TV and online.
00:33 So coming up in this edition, the European Union in the Middle East, soft power or paper
00:40 tiger?
00:41 As Brussels gears up for massive humanitarian aid for Gaza, EU leaders stress the need for
00:46 long-term resolution to the Israel-Hamas conflict.
00:50 This contains no reoccupation and no forced displacement.
00:55 They also emphasize that the Palestinian Authority should take over in Gaza while moving towards
01:00 a two-state solution.
01:02 The question is, does anybody care?
01:05 How much does EU diplomacy matter in this part of the world?
01:10 And Pedro Sánchez is back in power, but at what political price?
01:16 His decision to accede to some of the demands of Catalan pro-independence parties have proved
01:21 profoundly divisive.
01:23 They made their backing for his new government dependent on an amnesty for hundreds of people
01:28 involved in the illegal referendum to secede from Spain.
01:33 The conservative opposition in Madrid cried foul, and so did hundreds of thousands in
01:37 the streets.
01:39 Is Sánchez's move a threat to the rule of law?
01:43 Let's bring our panel now and try to get answers from Cate Bolongaro, managing editor, Europe
01:49 at MLEX; Sven Biskup, director of the Europe in the World program at the Royal Egmont Institute
01:56 for International Relations and professor at Ghent University; and Sandra Pasaric, project
02:02 officer at the Martin Center for European Studies.
02:06 Welcome to all of you, and thank you for joining me in our studio in Brussels.
02:11 So let's start with the Middle East.
02:13 The European Union is doing in the Middle East what it does best, funding projects.
02:18 That seems to be the only thing that the 27 governments can agree on.
02:23 Consequently, the European Union oftentimes looks like a resourceful bystander rather
02:29 than a powerful mediator in this eternal conflict.
02:33 Take a look.
02:37 As the war between Israel and Hamas rages on, the European Union has approved financial
02:42 support to the Palestinian territories.
02:47 The EU will continue giving development aid to the Palestinian people after an audit by
02:52 the commission found that European money was not going to Hamas.
02:56 Already the largest owner to the Palestinian territories, Brussels has committed more than
03:02 1 billion euros to development funds between 2021 and 2024.
03:10 The move comes as Europe finds itself more divided than ever over the conflict in Gaza.
03:15 Unease over Israel sieges growing within the union, but calls for a ceasefire are not universal.
03:23 With pleas for an end to the fighting seemingly falling on deaf ears, and the number of civilian
03:27 casualties in Gaza climbing by the day, we ask if the European Union has any real influence
03:32 in the region and the wider Middle East.
03:38 So let me start with the humanitarian aid, Kate.
03:43 Should it be granted to alleviate immediate suffering or should there be some more strings
03:48 attached in order to encourage change?
03:51 Well, I think the EU is in a difficult position here because obviously there's human suffering
03:56 and they want to contribute to ending that, but there's also the geopolitical elements
03:59 and to ensure that funding is not falling into the hands of a group that has been listed
04:04 as a terrorist organization.
04:06 And so they obviously are concerns there and also the broader geopolitical considerations
04:11 in regards to different countries' positions as a 27 bloc.
04:15 It's hard to always find an agreement among those 27 countries as we're seeing right now
04:20 and all the conversations of what's the best way forward and what role is the EU going
04:23 to be able to play in that.
04:24 We'll come to that later, Eswen, but the humanitarian aid, we're giving money for this noble cause,
04:32 alleviate the suffering of civilians, but should we be more forceful in demanding change
04:38 at the same time?
04:39 I think in the short term, nobody can have a lot of influence on the immediate Israeli
04:44 response to the Hamas terrorist attack, not even the United States, certainly not the
04:48 European Union.
04:49 But it might be, and I do stress, it might be a window of opportunity after the end of
04:53 military operations, I think, to change the vicious cycle, create a breakthrough.
04:58 So do not go back to what it was before 7 October, create a new governance structure
05:02 for Gaza.
05:04 And there I think the EU, together with the US, has some diplomatic way to push for that.
05:09 Sandra?
05:10 Well, I think it was a very good sign that Roberta Metzola and Ursula von der Leyen were
05:14 one of the first world leaders who visited the keyboards closest to the Gaza border,
05:20 where almost 1,300 Israelis were killed and also 240 kidnapped.
05:27 It was on this visit, happened on 13 October.
05:30 It was a very good sign.
05:32 The European Union unanimously decided it is on the side with Israel.
05:36 Israel has its right to defend itself, but always complying with the humanitarian laws
05:41 and defending also human rights.
05:45 You mentioned Israel.
05:46 The EU this week discussed funding Israel too, because the EU also gives money to Israel,
05:53 18 million here, to help Israel with regional cooperation.
05:57 More strings attached here too?
05:59 Can we get something in return for this?
06:01 Or should we be asking this?
06:03 I think that the thing is that at this point, Israel, under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu,
06:08 has really decided the path it wants to go forward.
06:10 And the US and the EU are going to have to find a way to convince him to agree to any
06:16 changes, I think at this point, which no one knows if that's going to be possible, to change
06:20 the direction.
06:21 There's a lot of division about what Israel actually wants to do with Gaza in the future
06:24 now that it's already moved in.
06:25 So I think a lot of eyes are going to be on whether the EU is actually going to be able
06:30 to do any strings attached, any sort of money to Israel or to the Palestinian territories,
06:34 frankly.
06:35 I would argue here that it's not more the question about what Israel will do next.
06:40 It's really about we have to look at Hamas and what Hamas wants.
06:44 And the only goal of Hamas is the complete destruction of Israel.
06:47 This is what they are preaching.
06:49 This is what they're teaching also their children, younger generation too.
06:52 This is also written in their manifestos.
06:55 And this is the only text, meaning that there won't be any solution.
06:59 No two state solution, no one state solution.
07:02 Also one of the solutions that I've heard lately, or also confederation if in coexistence
07:08 with Hamas.
07:09 So therefore Hamas needs to be destroyed.
07:11 I think if I may, our message should be more multidimensional than that.
07:16 I don't think it was a mistake to go to Israel, but I think it was a mistake to go only to
07:20 Israel because we created a perception in the global south that we are unconditionally
07:25 behind Israel, which is not the case.
07:27 There is no such thing as unconditionality in foreign policy.
07:30 So I think we should give a combined message, utterly condemn terrorist attack by Hamas
07:36 because the end does not justify the means, but the end is there, the two state solution.
07:42 We should also be clear to Israel that yes, they have the right, the duty to secure their
07:45 citizens but not by any means.
07:48 And two, their long-term strategy is a total failure because Israel behaves as a colonial
07:52 power.
07:53 Belgium, my country, has been a colonial power.
07:56 We gave up our colonies because we realized in the end you can only maintain them in a
08:00 permanent stage of war.
08:01 That should also be made clear to Israel.
08:04 Can we do that as EU?
08:07 The German word has the nice word "Zahlmeister" which is the one who foots the bill, right,
08:13 who pays.
08:14 The European Union is by far the biggest donor to the Palestinian authority and to the region
08:23 at large.
08:24 Why is it that Europe still doesn't have any meaningful leverage here to bring about change
08:32 and to push the countries or the players towards a peaceful solution?
08:38 And cynically actually in a way that helps Israel maintain its colonial policy because
08:42 thanks to EU funding, the Palestinian Authority on the West Bank can somehow function and
08:47 thus Israel can continue to do what it does in a way on the cheap.
08:52 But we have little leverage over Israel because we are too divided.
08:55 As long as certain member states, specifically Germany, feel that it is "Staatsräson"
09:00 as I've heard German leaders say, to always unconditionally support Israel, then we'll
09:05 be stuck.
09:06 And again I think there cannot be such a thing as unconditional support for another country.
09:10 With all the money we're paying, why don't we have any leverage?
09:13 Well I think the thing is that when it comes to national sovereignty, there's only so much
09:18 you can do.
09:19 And the EU has its limits with its member states, so how are you going to be able to
09:24 impose what you think is the correct way forward on a sovereign nation that even if you're
09:28 giving their money to the country, you can't necessarily walk in and say you must do this
09:33 and this and this.
09:34 And also then there's about the ethics of withdrawing funding.
09:37 If you put, what kind of strings do you attach to it?
09:40 Because there is a lot of human suffering there and a lot of people relying on getting
09:42 some aid.
09:43 Obviously of course ensuring it doesn't fall into the hands of any association that is
09:48 considered a terrorist group.
09:49 So I think that there is obviously that challenge, but I don't think that Brussels can just show
09:53 up and say we demand this and this and this.
09:56 It's not as straightforward as that.
09:57 Yeah, it's not only Brussels, it's 27.
10:00 Indeed, but also Kate you said it's a sovereign state and what is happening in Gaza and the
10:04 situation in Gaza and Palestinians, it is not a sovereign state.
10:08 So Hamas is a terrorist organization.
10:11 It is defined so by the UK, by the US, the European Union and other countries in the
10:18 world, especially in the Western world.
10:20 And also it has came to power illegally 2006 and also it is not morally equal to be comparing
10:27 Israel with Hamas in Palestine because what they're doing, they're not acting as an army.
10:34 They're using, they're not playing according to the rules.
10:36 They're using humans as the shields.
10:38 So obviously in Gaza is also one of the dense regions in the world.
10:42 It is 41 kilometers wide and 10, long and 10 kilometers long.
10:48 So therefore the, we cannot be comparing.
10:50 At the moment there is no solution in coexistence with Hamas.
10:54 Well there's not a solution for what, 70 years now, right?
10:58 There's not only Brussels, there are 27 member states and they all have different approaches
11:03 to this issue that became evident this week when the European Parliament debated this
11:09 issue and the division here is not only within countries or groups of countries, but also
11:15 within political families.
11:18 Take a listen to some of the statements here.
11:20 Who on the 7th of October spread death and destruction on a peaceful music festival and
11:27 several kibbutzes?
11:29 Exactly, Hamas.
11:31 And who is using innocent citizens as a human shield?
11:35 Exactly, Hamas.
11:36 Hamas has to be taken out of operation.
11:42 Israel deserves our support.
11:44 Why are we waiting to condemn Netanyahu's criminal behavior?
11:49 Palestinian children are being killed by Netanyahu's choices and we have to take a position now.
11:54 We need to see an immediate end to hostilities to ensure that humanitarian aid can get into
11:59 Gaza.
12:00 Israel has a right to defend itself but not to enact revenge.
12:04 These divisions that became apparent here again, is that one of the weaknesses that
12:12 we have as a European Union in the Middle East?
12:15 And how can we reconcile, let's say, the positions of Germany and Austria on one side and Spain
12:21 and Ireland, the anti-colonial countries, on the other?
12:26 How do we do that?
12:28 I'm a bit surprised, one, that everybody seems to forget that there is a firmly rooted EU
12:32 policy to work for the two-state solution and that suddenly nobody seems to be talking
12:37 about it.
12:38 And two, why is this presented as a choice?
12:42 Again, I think we must be able to give several messages at the same time and condemn Hamas
12:46 but also condemn Israel for their far too unrestrained response, which in the end has
12:52 the opposite strategic effect of what they want because they're only making things work
12:57 and increasing the risk of escalation.
12:59 The longer their military operation lasts, the more chance of regional escalation, which
13:03 would be detrimental for everybody.
13:05 Well, for myself, what we've seen there is European Parliament, something that you have
13:09 freedom of choice, you have freedom of speech, and this is what the European Union is about.
13:14 It's about freedom, democracy and peace.
13:16 All of the three things that are not given in Gaza's tribe and at the moment peace is
13:20 not given in Israel.
13:21 So Israel therefore also is not happy with the current situation and also the situation
13:25 they had for the past 70 years.
13:27 They might have freedom, they might have democracy, they might be better positioned as in contrary,
13:32 as in opposition with Palestinian people, but there is no peace.
13:35 So I'm sure there will be a need and interest also from Israel's side to work on a two-state
13:40 solution.
13:41 But at the moment, the stakes are high and what happened on 7th of October, it's too
13:46 recent.
13:47 And also it's important to say that Hamas did not, they've planned this attack.
13:51 We've seen, I mean, at the moment there's still no confirmation of that underneath Al
13:55 Sheva Hospital in the Gaza City.
13:58 The tunnels are, I mean, they have not been confirmed.
14:01 There are video footages, there are also some comparison, BBC did one of those, and it is
14:06 important to say that those tunnels have been planned for months, even from years, from
14:11 Hamas side.
14:12 So they intentionally planned using their own people, Palestinian women, Palestinian
14:16 elderly, Palestinian newborns, as human shields against Israel.
14:23 And also they attacked Israel only because with, based on their religion, because they
14:27 were Jewish, and Israel is not doing that.
14:30 Kate, the argument that Israel is a democracy and therefore we have to support the state
14:36 no matter what, is that a valid point here?
14:38 Because none of the Arab states around Israel is a democratic country.
14:43 So is that a fair point?
14:45 We say our first support should go to Israel.
14:49 I think it's just a very tricky situation regardless, in any way that you look at it,
14:54 it's a very difficult situation.
14:55 As Sven said, the EU policy is the two-state solution.
14:59 But again, you're dealing with a bunch of elements where the EU also, as a former colonizer
15:04 in the region, certain countries like France, for example, there's a lot of also baggage
15:08 there in that history.
15:09 And a lot of, that also needs to be part of the conversation about what role does the
15:13 EU actually have to play in negotiating this, and what kind of credibility do they have.
15:18 And again, you know, Germany is in Austria in an interesting situation also vis-a-vis
15:22 this conversation.
15:23 So I think it's really hard to take one stance with 27 countries, with all of the different
15:30 influence and impact they've had in the region and the history there.
15:33 So I think it's really tough.
15:35 It's a tough, I'm glad that I don't have to be making that decision, because I think it's
15:38 quite a challenge.
15:39 But that's exactly what makes us weak here, right?
15:41 If we have 27 sources of input, Sven.
15:46 I mean, eventually it is clear to me that EU foreign policy and defence policy cannot
15:51 continue to function like this, and we need to vote to majority voting.
15:55 Objectively speaking, there is nothing that stands in the way of that.
15:58 You could do it tomorrow.
15:59 But of course, I can see all the political obstacles.
16:02 Why it won't happen?
16:04 Several of you mentioned the two-state solution.
16:07 That was one thing that Joseph Porel mentioned in the aftermath of the beginning of the attack.
16:15 And several EU leaders underlined that policy that is still in place.
16:21 But nobody reacted to this, neither Israel nor the United States.
16:26 It is something that goes out and disappeared.
16:32 That is, again, the core of the issue here.
16:34 EU diplomacy cannot impose its strategy.
16:39 Is there a strategy at all, Sandra?
16:41 Well, if it were, obviously, the EU is pledging, and European Parliament's President Robert
16:46 de Maetzola also stressed it, for a two-state solution, because one-state solution for Israel
16:50 would just not be acceptable.
16:51 They would be a minority.
16:53 And also, Israel is not just a state.
16:55 It's also for them a homeland for the Jewish nation in general.
16:59 However, it is just too early to talk about it.
17:02 There was just agreed a ceasefire to be - so the - to be halted air strikes from the Israeli
17:08 side for six days - for six hours during the four days in exchange of hostages, in exchange
17:15 of 50 children and women.
17:16 We are still seeing on social media different footages of what has happened on the 7th of
17:22 October.
17:23 So it is just too early to talk about any solution at this moment and with existence
17:28 with Hamas.
17:29 Do you want to ask John from Borrell and all the others to bring this up?
17:33 I would say after 75 years of Israel-Palestine conflict, it's hardly too early to talk about
17:38 a solution.
17:39 I would say you have to do it now.
17:41 I think actually the United States, the current U.S. government, is playing a very constructive
17:44 role.
17:45 You see Secretary of State Blinken working the region, trying to mitigate the risk of
17:50 escalation, trying to work with leaders.
17:53 I think the Americans are hopeful that there could be this window of opportunity to not
17:58 go back to the status quo and we should now fully support that rather than continue to
18:03 dither among ourselves.
18:04 I'm sorry, I said it's too early because obviously on the other side, in Gaza Strip, there is
18:09 no credible partner.
18:11 So who do you want to talk about?
18:12 Hamas?
18:13 But there will never be a partner if you don't put something on the table.
18:17 We have to put something serious on the table now.
18:19 How are we going to solve this?
18:21 But our problem is always that we are in equidistance to both players.
18:26 The U.S. has leverage because deciding with Israel always.
18:31 And the Palestinian – the Qatar, they have some leverage and they negotiated this deal
18:37 here because they're very close to Hamas.
18:40 If we're sort of in the middle between everybody, we don't have leverage despite all the money
18:45 we're providing.
18:46 I think this is the Achilles heel of the European Union in foreign policy is like you have huge
18:51 countries like Germany, France with seats at the UN Security Council, for example.
18:55 The EU doesn't have a seat there.
18:57 Even though of course there's a lot of conversations about the UN nowadays and how effective it
19:01 actually is.
19:02 That's actually been floated as a solution with its own conversation around that.
19:06 But I think that that's really one of the issues the EU has always had, even in keeping
19:10 its own house in order with rule of law, for example.
19:13 Viktor Orban in Hungary has been able to dismantle a lot of the democratic institutions in the
19:17 country and they're still part of the EU.
19:19 So I think there's a lot of conversations there as to how the EU responds as a unit.
19:24 And even internally, that's a struggle, let alone when you go into the international scene.
19:29 Okay.
19:30 You mentioned Viktor Orban.
19:31 That is a great issue for the next round.
19:35 And thank you so far for a great conversation.
19:38 We're going to take a break now.
19:39 And when we come back, is Spain becoming the next EU country with rule of law issues?
19:46 That's next on Brussels, my love.
19:48 Stay with us.
19:49 Welcome back to Brussels, my love.
19:59 Our guests are still Kate Bolongaro, Sven Biskop and Sandra Pasaric.
20:05 Let's move on to our second topic, the rule of law situation in Europe following the passage
20:09 of an amnesty law in Spain.
20:11 The law was part of a deal between the Spanish socialists and Catalan separatists to keep
20:17 Pedro Sánchez in power.
20:19 Critics argue sharply that Sánchez's government will now be at the mercy of traitors to the
20:25 country.
20:27 This prompted a debate in the European Parliament called for by the centre-right European People's
20:32 Party and Renew.
20:34 The EPP's chairman Manfred Weber told Euronews that Sánchez's move was the beginning of
20:41 the end of the rule of law in Spain.
20:44 Take a listen.
20:45 What we need is to keep rule of law high, not only in the Eastern European countries,
20:50 but also in the so-called Western and Classical EU countries.
20:53 We are giving pardon to thousands of people and that is a lot.
20:58 And it's obvious that Sánchez is doing this only to get the votes, the seven votes from
21:02 Puigdemont to govern the country.
21:04 So it's about his personal egoism.
21:07 So first of all, I think Weber is exaggerating here.
21:10 It's not thousands of people that are benefiting from the MST law, but hundreds.
21:15 But that brings us right to the core of the debate here.
21:20 All this outrage that we're seeing on the right, is it just politics or does it have
21:28 some merit, Sandra?
21:29 No, it is indeed not politics.
21:32 I have myself lived in Barcelona, in Catalonia, in 2017.
21:37 So I lived the referendum, 1st of October 2017.
21:41 I've seen what was happening on the streets prior to it.
21:43 I was also following it before.
21:46 And it is indeed 1,000 people because MST law also goes in both directions.
21:51 So it's supposed to be pardoned, not only the Catalan separatist leaders and also everybody
21:58 involved in the process, but also police officers and so on.
22:05 Right.
22:07 But what the public is looking at is the people who were in prison, the Catalan leaders who
22:13 were in prison and who will now be able to return to politics.
22:17 And then, of course, the people who escaped to Belgium, Puigdemont, they will be able
22:24 to return to Spain without being arrested.
22:28 How will that change the political arena, the political discourse in Spain?
22:34 Well, I think you're seeing it a lot in the press right now.
22:37 There's a lot of conversations about the fact that this is just for Sanchez to be able to
22:43 get power after Fejo was unable, from the Partido Popular, was unable to actually form
22:48 a government.
22:49 So there is a lot of questions and a lot of anger in Spain, at least from what we see,
22:53 is people are demonstrating against this.
22:54 There's a lot of concern about how this is actually going to impact.
22:58 There is a bit of Sanchez does kind of present this holier-than-thou presence sometimes.
23:03 And I think there's a lot of questions about whether he's still going to be able to maintain
23:07 that kind of a discourse since this has happened.
23:10 And to what extent is he willing to upset a large part of the Spanish population for
23:16 his own political gains?
23:17 Because there's been a lot of pushback on this, even from socialists within his own
23:19 party who are saying, we just we can't get behind this, we don't support this, even if
23:23 we're socialists.
23:24 So I think it's a big conversation there.
23:27 The bill was very carefully drafted by the Spanish government because they wanted to
23:33 avoid any criticism here.
23:37 Are there any legal hurdles on Spanish or European level that could be a problem for
23:44 this?
23:45 Well, on Wednesday evening, it was discussed during the plenary session in Strasbourg,
23:49 the whole possibility of the amnesty laws and whether it is legal or within the constitution
23:53 or not.
23:54 As such, there are some jurists in Spain who are saying that there is no, it is not embedded
23:58 in the constitution.
24:00 But some again are saying that the constitution does not prohibit it.
24:03 We've seen it in 1977 after the Civil War.
24:06 So years after the Civil War, there was a so-called amnesty process that was supposed
24:13 to grant amnesty to those who did atrocities during the Spanish Civil War, during the Franco
24:21 era in Spain.
24:23 So now what is happening and basically why this is such an issue and why there are daily
24:29 protests in Spain is that Sánchez, he lied about his deal.
24:33 So he never talked about it during his electoral campaign on 23rd of July.
24:38 He sold, he did everything to hold on the power.
24:43 He sold indeed his government now to have, to gain this extra seven seats, to gain this
24:50 extra support.
24:51 And also it's important to say that amnesty is different than the pardon.
24:56 He did already back in June 2021, he pardoned nine Catalan separatists who were in jail
25:01 and they're now back in politics.
25:02 So this already happened.
25:04 Despite all of that, independent movement is losing on its popularity in Catalonia itself.
25:10 And nowadays, if there were to be discussion in the Catalan parliament, it would not have
25:17 majority.
25:18 I'm hesitating to compare Spain to Hungary, for instance, but it has been already discussed
25:26 on the European level.
25:29 Sven, is there a general tendency in Europe to take these sort of rule of law issues lightly
25:39 or not so seriously?
25:41 If countries, they look at Hungary and Poland and say, look, they can get away with it.
25:48 Why don't we do the amnesty bill?
25:50 I would say the opposite, actually.
25:52 I think we have belatedly come to the conclusion that Poland and Hungary should not get away
25:57 with it.
25:58 And of course, the problem is that we all thought that once a country becomes democratic,
26:02 it can never go back.
26:03 The 1930s should have told us otherwise.
26:06 And so we came up with mechanisms to try and do it very late.
26:09 So I would say the opposite.
26:10 We've become quite aware of threats to the freedoms that are actually enshrined in the
26:16 EU treaty.
26:17 There's also the issue of national reconciliation.
26:21 That is what Sanchez's party and he himself has said.
26:29 Is that what it is in Spain?
26:31 Are we seeing this or is it more an attempt of a desperate politician to stay in power?
26:37 What about this argument, national reconciliation?
26:39 I think that there's still an existence to Spain.
26:42 That's what a lot of Spaniards talk about is, you know, there's people who whose relationship
26:47 with the dictatorship was a more positive one and ones that's more negative.
26:50 And that's very divisive still to this day in Spain.
26:52 So I think this talking about national reconciliation in Spain, you have to actually go back even
26:57 further and include more than just about the independence movement in Catalonia, for example.
27:03 Spain is quite divided.
27:04 And there's a lot of also other regions that have strong movements like the Basque country.
27:08 And so it's really hard to focus that one story as the narrative of reconciliation in
27:13 a country that is so fractured and has been since its return to democracy and during after
27:18 the transition in the early 1980s.
27:20 And so I think that this is a core issue.
27:22 And he's probably going to bring out more tensions.
27:26 OK, I'm afraid that's all we have time for on that topic.
27:30 Thanks to our panel here in the studio.
27:32 And thanks for watching.
27:33 See you soon here on Euronews.
27:36 Welcome back to Brussels, my love, our talk show about some of the week's main events.
27:50 And now to something special.
27:52 British filmmaker Ridley Scott's latest movie Napoleon opened this week in theaters across
27:57 Europe.
27:58 A two-hour, 38-minute historical spectacle complete with bloody battles and massive military
28:05 maneuvers.
28:07 But don't mistake Napoleon for your average historical epic in which the hero is being
28:12 glorified.
28:13 Scott's Napoleon is a boyishly impulsive, thin-skinned brute careening his way through
28:20 Europe and leaving battlefields of dead soldiers in his wake.
28:25 I'm sure the movie will draw criticism from many sides.
28:28 The big question is, though, how do you depict someone who for more than 200 years has been
28:34 characterized as everything from genius reformer to tyrannical psychopath?
28:41 And my question to you is, why are we still fascinated by Napoleon?
28:46 Sven?
28:47 Well, I must confess, so was I.
28:49 As a teenager, I knew everything about Napoleon's battles.
28:53 I painted in soldiers.
28:54 I could tell you which uniform of the Imperial Guard changed in which year and reenact the
28:59 whole Battle of Waterloo.
29:01 And I think the fascination is, of course, the achievement to create this enormous empire,
29:07 but also to lose it in such a short time.
29:09 It's the drama.
29:10 Now, if I look at it professionally, so to say, as someone who then later began to write
29:14 and think about strategy, then you realize that he was a master of tactics and operations,
29:19 but a total failure at grand strategy, because he won nearly every battle.
29:24 He actually also won nearly every war, but he never consolidated his gains, and so he
29:29 just ended up losing everything.
29:31 But there are other aspects.
29:32 There's Josephine.
29:33 There's, you know, his private life, the domestic agenda.
29:38 What is it that makes Napoleon still a figure that we want to see a movie about?
29:42 Well, he's a divisive figure full of drama, and I think that that's always going to attract
29:46 humankind for as long as we exist on this planet.
29:49 We like those stories, and he's a good story.
29:52 And he can be interpreted many different ways.
29:54 So it sounds like that's what Ridley Scott has done here.
29:56 There are many, many portraits of Napoleon that were quite positive, you know, books,
30:02 but you would have positive notions, you know, of Hitler or, you know, other dictators that
30:09 try to conquer Europe.
30:12 What is the difference between Hitler and Napoleon?
30:14 Well, I think Napoleon was not on an ideological crusade, and obviously he didn't plan a genocide.
30:20 He planned to create a dynasty and an empire, and he also made contributions that still
30:25 have a great impact.
30:26 If you think of the legislation, the Code Napoléon, even parts of current Belgian law
30:30 are still based on that.
30:31 And for the French, Napoleon created the LĂ©gion d'honneur, which still has a great mystique
30:36 in France.
30:37 So his legacy is probably more present than we realize somewhere in the background.
30:43 Is it fair that we let a British filmmaker do a movie on Napoleon in English?
30:50 It's probably odd that they all speak English, whereas obviously everyone knows that they
30:54 all spoke French.
30:56 Even all the big diplomatic officials were in French.
31:00 Ridley Scott told a critic, you know, who said that the historical facts are a little
31:08 wobbly here.
31:09 And Scott said, "Just get a life."
31:12 So it's... and the British press loved the movie, the Anglo-Saxon press, I should say,
31:18 but obviously in France it was different.
31:20 But it's interesting that you as a Belgian, as a non... well, you're kind of in the French
31:25 cultural orbit, but when you talk to people about this, do you feel... do you hear different
31:31 categorical statements on Napoleon?
31:33 Well, I'm a Dutch speaker actually, so I'm not sure if I'm fully in the French cultural
31:38 orbit.
31:39 I think the nice thing about Belgium is we're right in the middle between the French and
31:44 the German cultural orbit.
31:46 Of course there is this fascination because Waterloo, the final battle, is here.
31:50 And the interesting thing is that Belgians fought on both sides at Waterloo, so we would
31:54 always have won.
31:55 Good.
31:56 That's a nice conclusion.
31:58 And that does it for us today on Brussels, my love.
32:00 I'd like to thank our guests for a fascinating conversation and you at home for watching.
32:06 And if you want to reach out to us, you can send us a note to brusselsmylove@euronews.com
32:11 with comments or ideas, or contact us on social media.
32:16 I'm Stephan Grobes, see you soon here on Euronews and Euronews.com.
32:21 Take care and goodbye.
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