Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Rob Bailey, joined by Conservative Peter Oakford, cabinet member for finance at Kent County Council, and the opposition leader, Labour's Lauren Sullivan
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00:24 Welcome to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV.
00:27 I'm Rob Bailey.
00:28 And tonight, we'll be taking a close look
00:30 at what the autumn statement means for people in Kent.
00:33 Chancellor Jeremy Hunt boasted of record-breaking cuts
00:36 to national insurance and business taxes
00:38 to get Britain spending again.
00:40 But with energy bills rising by 5% this winter,
00:44 more low earners paying income tax and mortgage bills soaring,
00:48 did the government do enough to help struggling families?
00:51 Here to unpick the details with me
00:53 is Conservative Peter Oakford, the cabinet member
00:55 for finance at Kent County Council,
00:57 and KCC's opposition leader, Labour's Lauren Sullivan.
01:01 Welcome.
01:01 Thanks for joining me.
01:03 Peter, it can be very difficult for people
01:04 to unpick whether or not they are winners and losers.
01:07 Jeremy Hunt was very bullish, national insurance cuts
01:10 and all of the rest of it.
01:11 But what he didn't talk about was the fact
01:13 that mortgage rates are still very high,
01:15 inflation is still high.
01:17 Do you think that he has done enough?
01:19 Has the Conservative Party get a win out of this?
01:22 Well, they say the devil's in the detail.
01:23 And I think there's an awful lot that we still don't know.
01:26 Everybody saw the headlines, and the headlines
01:29 were living wages increased, which
01:31 I think is very good for the lower paid people in society.
01:35 I think that the reduction in the taxes are good,
01:41 but we don't know how they're going to impact everybody yet.
01:44 Has he done enough?
01:45 I don't think he has, no.
01:46 Because the big element we were looking for
01:48 was funding for local government.
01:50 I'm afraid there isn't anything in that.
01:53 So we've just got to focus on what
01:54 there is in there that can help the residents of Kent
01:56 and what we can do to support those residents even more,
02:00 given the budget that we've had.
02:02 We're going to come a bit later in the show
02:04 onto some of the questions around local government
02:06 funding and local government settlements.
02:07 But in terms of people's pockets,
02:10 Lauren, it was quite interesting when Rachel Reeves stood up
02:12 to respond, obviously critical of the government,
02:15 but she didn't actually say very much about some of the policies
02:18 because there was actually some elements that
02:21 were difficult to disagree with.
02:22 He kept the full lock for pensioners,
02:25 raising the minimum wage.
02:27 He has found ways to help people, hasn't he?
02:31 Do you welcome some of those things?
02:33 I think what Peter said, I think obviously the increase
02:36 to the minimum wage, welcomed, absolutely.
02:39 But what also didn't see, and the devil is in the detail,
02:42 is that fiscal drag.
02:43 So he didn't increase the tax threshold.
02:45 So while you'll be giving more money
02:47 and there'll be an increase, you're
02:48 also paying the same amount of tax.
02:50 So under the last 13 years, the huge increase
02:54 in tax that has been from this government.
02:57 So actually, you're giving with a little bit,
03:00 but then you're still taking away some.
03:01 So actually, it's a very murky scene,
03:03 and I don't think there is that support and funding
03:08 for local people, anyway.
03:10 He had money to play with.
03:11 He was very bold about that.
03:12 He said he had that fiscal headroom, one of these kind
03:15 of phrases that comes out.
03:17 What would you have done with it that he didn't?
03:19 Oh, that's a very good--
03:20 well, oh, get me in there.
03:23 OK, let's sort of-- so, I mean, you could
03:25 have done so much with that.
03:26 Yes, that fiscal headroom.
03:28 We are, as a country, you're looking at spend over the GDP,
03:32 all of that sort of stuff.
03:34 What could we do?
03:34 We could sort that energy cost.
03:36 We could look at housing rates increase.
03:39 And actually, what I would be doing,
03:40 and of course, I think Peter would agree with,
03:42 invest in local government.
03:43 We have been cash strapped for so long.
03:47 And the power that local government
03:49 can do in unlocking potential and all of that
03:52 has been completely wasted.
03:53 So it's a wasted opportunity.
03:55 Children's services are at a critical point.
03:58 Adults, social care, I mean, that
04:01 is where the money needs to be, public services.
04:03 Peter, she said you would agree.
04:05 But I mean, how would you have spent that money if you'd
04:08 had your say on that?
04:09 Well, first and foremost, I would
04:10 have looked at local government, because local government
04:13 across the country is in a death spiral.
04:15 What local government needs is much better funding,
04:19 because local government delivers so many services
04:22 to support the residents, especially here in Kent.
04:25 Without the funds, we can't do that.
04:27 And what we're having to do is to go back on the services.
04:30 So that, first and foremost, I think
04:32 is where the money should have come.
04:34 But I think that the tax thresholds should
04:36 have been looked at as well, because as people's earnings
04:39 go up, more and more are going into the higher rate of tax.
04:42 And so I think that there is a--
04:45 we're giving you some here, but you're not
04:47 seeing the other side of that equation.
04:49 And it's how many more people are
04:50 going into the higher tax bracket
04:52 and the impact that's going to have on an awful lot of people
04:55 within our county.
04:56 Well, inevitably, an awful lot of focus
04:58 goes on some of the lowest earning, most vulnerable
05:01 people in our communities.
05:02 And joining us now is Beverly Hardstone
05:04 from Myers Community Support Centre in Herne Bay.
05:07 They've been active for a year, and they
05:10 run food and clothing banks.
05:12 Beverly, thank you so much for joining us.
05:16 I wonder what you think the autumn statement did
05:20 for the people that you're helping in Herne Bay
05:23 and in the wider area.
05:26 Well, I always welcome any money that's
05:28 going to go in the pockets of people who are in poverty.
05:32 But I don't think it's going to make
05:33 a lot of difference straight away,
05:35 and that's the worrying thing.
05:37 Particularly welcome was the lift on the local housing
05:40 allowance cap.
05:41 That's been stuck at the same level since 2020.
05:44 So people's rents have gone up and up,
05:47 but only received the same level of support.
05:49 And what that's meant is that they've got very bad arrears.
05:52 Lots and lots of people are facing eviction
05:54 or the threat of eviction.
05:56 And this new lift on the cap doesn't
05:58 come until next April.
06:00 So that's another four and a half months.
06:02 And in that time, I think lots of people
06:04 are going to be evicted, which is a very sad situation to be in.
06:09 We're coming into a very difficult winter, aren't we?
06:11 I know it's a busy time for organisations like yours.
06:15 We've also heard, obviously, that energy prices
06:17 are going to be going up 5% again, which is another kind
06:21 of challenge for families.
06:23 How many people do you think you'll be helping this Christmas
06:26 in your food and clothing banks?
06:29 Hundreds and hundreds every day.
06:31 We are feeding about 250 people a week--
06:35 250 families, sorry, a week.
06:38 Sometimes there are 120 people an hour going to our free shop
06:43 to get clothes.
06:44 People are stocking up for the winter.
06:46 Duvets and blankets just fly out.
06:49 People are unable to heat their houses.
06:51 And so they're wrapping up warm and looking
06:53 for sleeping bags and blankets.
06:56 And that's because they're worried about turning on
06:58 the heating.
06:59 The fact that the poorer people tend
07:01 to live in the poorest insulated houses.
07:04 So any increase in the housing cost
07:07 is disproportionately affecting poor, disadvantaged people.
07:11 And so they're having to choose.
07:12 Do they put their heating on?
07:14 Do they pay their rent?
07:15 Or do they feed their kids?
07:17 It's a very tough one.
07:18 And we have faced every day with people with that dilemma.
07:22 Herne Bay, where we're based, has a disproportionate amount
07:25 of people taking their own lives.
07:27 And two recently have cited their failure
07:30 to provide for their families as a reason why they've
07:32 chosen to take their own life.
07:34 It's desperate times for people at the bottom end
07:38 of this crisis.
07:39 It's really, really sad.
07:41 Hearing there about the help for renters
07:45 and about the home living costs, Jeremy Hunt
07:48 brought in emergency legislation.
07:50 He said he will bring in emergency legislation
07:51 on the national insurance and bring that in in January.
07:55 Could he have expedited other help like that
07:58 to help people through these hard winter months, do you think?
08:02 If he wanted to, I'm sure that he could have done.
08:04 Because if you can do it on one area,
08:05 you can do it on other areas.
08:07 And I think, as we've just heard,
08:09 there are so many people within Kent that are really struggling
08:13 and do need the support of the government.
08:15 We try and do what we can through the local authorities
08:18 at every level.
08:20 But we do need the support of government to do this.
08:23 And one of the big part of the budget
08:25 was obviously talking about universal credit,
08:27 but also this kind of fit for work test and the idea
08:30 that there would be a kind of a stricter set of criteria
08:33 about who should be at work and mandatory work placements
08:36 for those who don't do them.
08:38 How did you react to that?
08:39 Well, it's a little bit of culture wars again,
08:42 and just sort of bashing people when they're down,
08:44 rather than trying to understanding what the issue is.
08:47 We're looking at long-term worklessness.
08:50 You need to look at the factors around that--
08:51 poverty, mental health, addiction,
08:53 all of those factors that need to take place.
08:55 Things that the council can help with,
08:57 voluntary organisations can help.
08:59 That's where we need to get in and actually understand
09:01 and work through those challenges,
09:03 rather than penalise and punish again and again and again.
09:06 We need that support network in place.
09:09 But then, of course, if people can work,
09:11 they should be working and contributing to our society.
09:14 That is, of course, the point.
09:15 But you've got to have hand in hand the support in one hand.
09:19 But then also, if you can work, you should be able to work.
09:23 Beverly, I just want to bring you back in on that point,
09:25 because there'll be people that you're helping,
09:27 you're working with, who are going to be affected
09:29 by these new rules.
09:30 What did you make of them?
09:33 Well, I don't think there was any mention
09:35 of any extra funding for the mental health crisis.
09:37 And we're seeing that every day.
09:39 It's really almost an epidemic of importance.
09:43 And what's happening is that those people are
09:46 going through these crises, and they can't actually
09:48 do anything.
09:49 And there needs to be lots more support
09:51 to help them lead active lives.
09:52 Most people want to work.
09:54 They really, really do.
09:55 And I agree, certainly, about investing in local authorities.
10:00 We have social workers coming to us
10:02 and asking us for bags of food to take to people in crisis.
10:07 That seems the wrong way around to me.
10:11 There are lots of services that were there
10:12 that are no longer there.
10:14 And it's falling to the voluntary sector
10:16 that are really struggling at the minute.
10:18 Peter, I saw you nodding there.
10:20 Yeah, well, I was thinking, with the help
10:22 to get people back to work, there's good and bad to that.
10:26 I think with the ability now for a lot more people
10:29 to work at home, it will bring more people forward
10:32 that could be in the workforce if they want to do,
10:34 if they're capable of doing so.
10:36 And I think if there is support available to help those people
10:40 back into the workforce, that is a really good thing.
10:43 Because it means that they have, then, some purpose.
10:45 And they're not sitting at home wondering
10:47 what they're going to do next.
10:49 But it is a balance, as Lauren said.
10:51 You have to look at both sides of that equation.
10:53 So I'm very much for helping people back into the workforce.
10:57 But we have to recognise that there
10:59 is the other side of that equation as well.
11:01 Coming towards the play, Jeremy Hunt
11:03 mentioned about home working being one of the routes back
11:05 for people.
11:06 But there's been some concern that these jobs
11:08 are kind of mythical in a way, that they don't really exist.
11:12 Most civil servants seem to work at home, I thought.
11:15 Well, you look at the places where we've got job shortages.
11:18 You look at care, social care, carers.
11:24 You can't do that behind a desk.
11:25 So we have got those job vacancies, teaching assistants,
11:29 all the people that need to be out there.
11:33 So yeah, there is an element about mythical.
11:37 It was in the detail, as we said to start with.
11:39 But thank you so much to Beverley for joining us.
11:41 It's time for us to take a short break.
11:42 When we come back, we'll find out
11:43 why some people are saying Jeremy Hunt's giveaways could
11:46 force even more cuts to public services.
11:48 Stay with us.
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15:08 Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV.
15:11 And we're sticking with the autumn statement.
15:13 Jeremy Hunt boasted of record-breaking tax cuts for workers and businesses.
15:17 But economists have warned that the nation could pay for them
15:20 with a fresh round of austerity.
15:22 Kent's councils are among those battling large budget gaps
15:25 by trimming public services like children's centres and youth groups.
15:29 Still here with me is Conservative Peter Oakford,
15:31 the Cabinet Member for Finance at Kent County Council,
15:34 and KCC's Opposition Leader, Labour's Lauren Sullivan.
15:37 Thanks again.
15:38 Peter, the key moment in all of this actually wasn't what happened
15:42 in the autumn statement this week.
15:44 It's all about the financial settlement that councils are going to get,
15:48 which isn't going to be published until closer to Christmas.
15:51 What are you expecting Kent County Council to get from the government
15:54 for the next year?
15:55 In reality, we're not expecting anything more than we got last year.
16:00 And if that is the case, I'm afraid we will be struggling.
16:03 Six months through this year, we were predicting a £36 million overspend.
16:08 Unlike National Health and other organisations,
16:12 we have to balance our budget, which means if we have overspend,
16:15 it comes out of our limited reserves.
16:18 Without reserves, there's no financial sustainability to the council.
16:22 We've got that down through management action at the moment
16:24 to about £20 million, and we hope to balance.
16:26 But we started next year, next financial year,
16:29 with £100 million worth of overspend prediction through demand growth, etc.
16:35 We've managed to identify savings of around £50 million,
16:39 which is a huge amount of money, mainly in the areas of social care.
16:44 That means we've still got £50 million to find.
16:47 At this moment, we're looking, but we're struggling.
16:50 In all honesty, we are struggling.
16:52 And my big fear is until governments start to fund social care properly
16:57 and fully, all local authorities throughout the country
17:01 are in the same position if they have responsibility in these areas.
17:05 What it means is that the spend is outstripping the income,
17:10 and we begin a death spiral across the country of local government
17:14 because of chronic underfunding in this area.
17:17 It's not just local government.
17:19 In fact, it's national government departments as well.
17:22 The warning is that this is austerity too
17:25 that's going to be coming in on the back of this.
17:28 There are some people saying that this is something of a trap
17:31 that's being dug by Jeremy Hunt,
17:33 an austerity trap that Labour will have to walk into
17:36 if they win the next general election.
17:38 Can you avoid that trap?
17:40 How can we? It's up to the government at the time.
17:43 Jeremy Hunt's got all the levers.
17:45 Whether he's going to be standing in the next general election
17:48 to inherit any of this, no.
17:50 I mean, it's dire. It is pretty dire.
17:54 And when I speak to people on the doorstep,
17:57 there is a hopelessness about it at the moment.
18:00 But we can rebuild, and I think there's always hope.
18:05 After the Second World War, we rebuilt.
18:08 We had a nation of house building,
18:11 which meant that unlocked homes for heroes.
18:14 We need to invigorate that sense of industry, collectivism,
18:19 and national pride that we can rebuild from this.
18:22 It's just going to be really hard.
18:24 And I think for the short term, for the next year,
18:26 until there's a general election,
18:28 until we have any kind of certainty where we're going,
18:31 how many lives are going to be affected and broken,
18:35 that's the sad bit.
18:37 So bring on a general election because we need a new vision.
18:40 Is that right, a year of limbo until we have a new government?
18:43 No, I don't think it's a year of limbo.
18:45 I also don't...
18:47 One thing that I haven't agreed with Lauren this evening
18:49 is I don't think it's like the end of the Second World War.
18:52 We're struggling, but we're not quite there.
18:55 KCC is in a very difficult financial position,
18:58 but we will get through it and we will get out of it.
19:02 My big fear is, as I came into local politics,
19:05 and I'm sure Lauren did and I'm sure all of our colleagues at Kent did,
19:08 to support the local residents within our communities.
19:11 At this moment in time, it's very difficult to do that
19:14 because an awful lot of what we're having to do
19:17 is to reduce some of the support that people are getting
19:20 and look at how we can balance our budget.
19:23 We are fighting to keep certain areas of support that we know people value
19:27 and we want to keep those areas of support.
19:30 We are protecting a number of discretionary services
19:33 at this moment in time in order to make sure we don't become a government...
19:37 Sorry, a local authority that just provides
19:41 government-listed statutory services.
19:44 If we did, there's no point in local government...
19:47 There's a lot of concern around the county about some of the decisions that are being made.
19:50 Children's centres, youth groups being cut.
19:53 These are going to have really profound impacts on some of the people
19:56 that live near those ones that are closing.
19:59 Children's Centres and Youth Hub is a new government programme that has been introduced.
20:02 It's a different way of delivering youth services.
20:05 This is one area where I know that there's differences of opinion between political parties.
20:10 But at the end of the day, what we're saying is it's not all about a building.
20:14 It's about the service that is delivered to the families
20:17 and the support that's given to the families.
20:20 There's no secret that Ken County Council could not afford to maintain
20:23 all of the buildings that we have and we're having to look at disposing of some of the assets
20:27 that we currently have around the country.
20:30 The programme that we're going through at the moment with the Youth Hubs is part of that work.
20:35 It's something we would have done before the Youth Hub project
20:38 came along from central government.
20:40 But there is a lot of money associated with that and the government are investing
20:44 in the youth services of Kent through that programme.
20:47 Well, there's a lot of money that needs to be saved.
20:50 Are those decisions necessary?
20:53 I would argue that there was the £500 million youth investment or endowment fund
20:59 that was available that we didn't apply for.
21:01 These were grants for capital investment into youth settings and services.
21:05 The Family Hubs model does not cater for youth services.
21:09 And when we've got an epidemic, and I think that she spoke about,
21:13 was a mental health crisis in our young people, especially coming out of COVID,
21:18 this is the worst possible time that we could be withdrawing support.
21:21 The promises made about there being support out there in the community,
21:26 we've heard that before in the last round of cuts to the Youth Hubs.
21:30 Where we have entrenched poverty, layers of deprivation,
21:36 we used to have those little community groups, hubs,
21:39 building spaces where people can go.
21:41 They are being ripped out of our communities,
21:44 and that is going to have everlasting, increasing damage
21:47 and will cost society more to return.
21:50 So we do have a different view and a different approach on how we should do things.
21:57 But that's ultimately why we got into politics,
22:00 to try and put forward that different approach, that different view.
22:03 I disagree with the approach being taken at the moment,
22:06 but £50 million worth of savings to find next year, that's colossal.
22:11 That's 5% of the budget.
22:13 And of course when you get into the details like with these things,
22:15 you can face difficulties pushing some of these things through.
22:18 We know that there are recycling centres around Kent which were earmarked.
22:21 Four out of six were earmarked for closure, but now that's uncertain
22:24 because you've got members of your own party rebelling against that decision.
22:28 You've got to save the money.
22:30 Is it going to be difficult to force some of these decisions through
22:32 because they're so unpopular in their communities?
22:35 It is absolutely, and that's why things at the moment are so difficult
22:39 because as councillors we don't agree with the areas that we're having to make savings in.
22:43 I don't think any one of us would make some of the savings we're having to make
22:47 if social care was properly funded.
22:50 But I think the challenge is a lot of members don't understand what happens
22:53 if we don't get a budget through.
22:55 At the end of the day, if the budget isn't approved,
22:58 the senior officers within the council, the statutory officers,
23:02 then have the ability to take the budget to DELUC and say to DELUC,
23:07 "The councillors can't agree this budget. We believe we can deliver this budget."
23:11 And they can seek approval to then exercise that, and they take over the council,
23:16 and the senior officers then try and implement that budget,
23:19 and then councillors don't have any say in what happens.
23:22 So it's far better for us to work together as elected representatives
23:26 to make sure that we can put a balanced budget forward
23:29 so we can continue to have influence over how we support our residents.
23:34 There's an argument that also is saying that we need to say to government,
23:38 and we say it loudly, and you've said it before, but say it loudly again,
23:42 "We cannot sacrifice all of these people's services
23:46 to just protect Kent County Council's budget to stay alive.
23:50 We need more funding."
23:52 And the government making it a political football now, going,
23:56 "Oh, look at Birmingham."
23:58 Kent is nearly on the brink as well, and I am not prepared to just agree
24:05 to a bunch of cuts and savings that's going to have devastating impacts on our people.
24:10 We need more central government funding.
24:14 One of the big pressures in all of this is the enormous bill
24:16 that Kent County Council has for adult social services,
24:19 for children's social services, and particularly in the last few years,
24:22 unaccompanied minors and the obligations that you have
24:26 to look after anyone that arrives in the county.
24:28 Were you surprised, Peter, to see no mention of any of that in the budget?
24:33 Well, at this moment in time, the unaccompanied, asylum-seeking children
24:38 are directly funded by central government.
24:41 The Kent taxpayer does not have to contribute towards that.
24:44 So that's why we don't talk about that as much,
24:46 because that's a separate issue that we deal with with government separately.
24:49 So that doesn't come out of our base budget that we're talking about today.
24:53 But how about the adult social care and children's social care,
24:57 which are enormous bills, aren't they?
24:59 Three-quarters, two-thirds of our spend goes on adults and children's social care.
25:03 There was no mention of it at all in there?
25:04 There's no mention of it, and that's why we were so really upset
25:08 about the budget that was forthcoming.
25:12 We have continued to lobby government.
25:15 Roger Gough, the leader, and myself--
25:18 Roger has many meetings I accompany on, some of them to go and talk to government.
25:22 We meet with the county council network.
25:24 We have every opportunity that we can to lobby Kent MPs.
25:28 Kent MPs have been lobbying government on our behalf,
25:31 as I'm sure have MPs all over the country,
25:34 because this isn't a Kent-centric problem.
25:37 This is a problem that's faced by all local authorities across the country
25:40 at this moment in time.
25:42 And we go along to the county council network meetings,
25:46 and you talk to them, and they're all saying the same thing.
25:49 All the senior leaders, whether they're a unitary council or a county council,
25:53 they're all saying the same thing.
25:55 We're struggling with highways. We're struggling with potholes.
25:58 We're struggling with social services.
26:00 We're running short of time, Donna, but you--
26:02 I mean, we do have-- there are examples of councils across the country
26:05 that have got balanced budgets for their adult social services,
26:08 and it's about how they did that, and it's 10 years ago.
26:11 We're looking at more of an in-house service,
26:13 looking at smaller, less commissioning.
26:16 I think we are at the moment where our positioning is
26:19 as a commissioning authority, subject to the market and the market forces.
26:24 That has put us in a weaker position currently as it stands.
26:27 That's another area of disagreement.
26:30 What a way to end the show.
26:32 That's all we've got time for here at the Kent Politics Show.
26:34 Thank you to both of my guests, and again to Beverly Hardstone
26:36 for joining us down the line.
26:38 We'll be back next week. Good night.
26:41 This is Kentonite is coming up next with all the latest news from around the county.
26:45 We'll be back next week. Good night.
26:48 [Music]
26:59 [BLANK_AUDIO]