The Baer Faxt is an art industry news source written and published by Josh Baer. It was launched by Baer in 1994 as a weekly newsletter delivered via fax machine and now also provides clients with services such as an auction database and an art advisory membership program. Josh Baer began his career in the art business as a gallerist in the late 1970s. In this conversation with Daniel Hug he talks about his career in the art world and recent developments in the art market.
Art Cologne 2023 Art Talks: The Baer Faxt. Josh Baer in Conversation with Daniel Hug (Art Director, Art Cologne).
Art Cologne Talks Lounge. Cologne (Germany), November 17, 2023, 4:00-5:00 p.m.
Art Cologne 2023 Art Talks: The Baer Faxt. Josh Baer in Conversation with Daniel Hug (Art Director, Art Cologne).
Art Cologne Talks Lounge. Cologne (Germany), November 17, 2023, 4:00-5:00 p.m.
Category
🦄
CreativityTranscript
00:00:00 Hello, my name is Daniel Hoog. I'm art director of Art Cologne.
00:00:17 And this is Josh Baer from the Baer Facts.
00:00:21 So I think we're just going to have a conversation with each other.
00:00:26 Can you hear me? Is this okay?
00:00:29 I'll talk loud, but that's too loudly. Okay.
00:00:32 Before we start talking, it helps me to understand who the audience is.
00:00:37 So if you're an artist, can you raise your hand?
00:00:41 Okay. If you're a gallerist, collector, okay.
00:00:48 Here for the free food.
00:00:52 I suppose we could say journalist and critic too,
00:00:54 even though they don't really count anymore, sort of.
00:00:57 Do we have any journalists here?
00:01:00 Okay. I'm not one really.
00:01:03 Hey Daniel, how are you?
00:01:05 Good. How are you? It sounds like you're all the way across the room with this.
00:01:10 It's only 30 years since I was at Art Cologne where I had a booth.
00:01:15 That's right. You had a gallery, Josh Baer gallery.
00:01:19 I thought it was a good idea to name it after myself,
00:01:21 but I think I was here around 1989.
00:01:24 Is this the same building?
00:01:26 No, no. We moved.
00:01:29 Art Cologne used to be in the Rhine Park Hall,
00:01:32 which are the beautiful brick halls just towards the Rhine River from here.
00:01:37 And Hall 11 is, I made that move in what, 2010.
00:01:46 My predecessor, Gerard Goodrow, had to move the fair because the building was,
00:01:52 it had to be renovated and so it was easier to sell the building to the city
00:01:58 and build new industrial halls.
00:02:01 And it's Cologne's fault for this whole art fair thing,
00:02:04 for starting this merry-go-round of every month,
00:02:09 different art fair around the world. It's Cologne's fault?
00:02:12 Yeah, yeah. It's Cologne's fault.
00:02:13 It's your fault. You did this to us.
00:02:16 It's Heinz Stünke's fault from Galerie der Spiegel and Rudolf Zwirner,
00:02:22 the father of David, they both had galleries in Cologne
00:02:28 and came up with the idea to do an art fair.
00:02:35 So you just came back, you just arrived from New York,
00:02:39 from being at the New York auctions.
00:02:41 We've had two weeks of auctions
00:02:45 and I think the takeaway that didn't surprise me,
00:02:48 but that seemed to surprise the world,
00:02:51 that the art market was still alive and still strong.
00:02:56 I didn't doubt it, but I think the media went for the easy route of,
00:03:01 "Oh my God, there's wars going on, interest rates are high,
00:03:05 it's a speculative bubble, blah, blah, blah."
00:03:08 And $2 billion worth of art transacted in about the last eight days.
00:03:15 That's a lot.
00:03:16 Yeah, yeah. I looked at some of the sales results
00:03:21 from the big auction houses and it struck me as okay.
00:03:26 I mean, of course, there were a lot of works that were bought in,
00:03:30 but most works fell within the estimated values.
00:03:36 So it wasn't... I mean, I read one article that said that the auctions were lackluster.
00:03:44 So I'm not sure what...
00:03:46 I don't even know what that means anyways.
00:03:48 I mean, they're always lackluster.
00:03:50 I've been to a thousand of them and believe me,
00:03:52 it's kind of pathetic to have been to a thousand auctions.
00:03:55 It's like, unless it's your painting being bought or sold,
00:04:01 you're kind of just watching other people spend money.
00:04:05 I mean, how luster can that be?
00:04:07 So it's kind of like a large part of it is...
00:04:11 Anybody watch house shows on TV, they have them here like,
00:04:15 "Oh, there's this mansion for 52 million euros.
00:04:18 I want to look at that." It's kind of pornography.
00:04:21 So a lot of the auction, the art market is kind of porn
00:04:26 because there's only a couple hundred people actually participating,
00:04:30 you know, the stars, and then the rest of the world is sort of watching it.
00:04:35 So, I mean, it relates to your ability to run the fair.
00:04:39 I'm an art advisor. I had works for clients to bid on and to sell.
00:04:43 So it matters. But in the overall scheme of things,
00:04:46 it gets a lot of attention.
00:04:49 And just to sort of come around on it,
00:04:53 it's all an illusion, okay?
00:04:57 If the illusion of the sales is good,
00:05:00 everybody is like, "Wow, I can buy art here
00:05:03 because maybe I'll sell it at Sotheby's in 30 years."
00:05:08 Or the other illusion is it sold well.
00:05:12 That's defined by this thing called the estimate.
00:05:15 You know, one million to two million.
00:05:17 If it sells for three, it did great, even though it should have sold for five.
00:05:22 So would it be better if it sold for three, estimated one to two,
00:05:26 or sold for four, estimated five to seven?
00:05:29 Well, I'm going to tell you, if you're the seller, it's better the other way.
00:05:34 So it's all a bit of theater on top of it being $2 billion,
00:05:43 which is probably what McDonald's sold in that period of time, right?
00:05:47 Just to put in context.
00:05:49 Yeah. I mean, what I find funny or interesting
00:05:56 is that the auction houses already know before the auction how much interest there is.
00:06:02 So, I mean, they kind of put their feelers out and are like,
00:06:05 "You think this thing is going to sell for this much?"
00:06:07 And then there's also guarantees.
00:06:10 But sometimes they even pull works before the auction
00:06:14 if they know that there's zero interest in the work.
00:06:16 Like if no one calls them to do telephone bidding or...
00:06:22 Yeah. I think the thought is they're sitting there,
00:06:28 and Christie's waiting for the phone to ring.
00:06:31 And like, "Oh, somebody's emailed me. I want to buy this anywhere."
00:06:34 It's not like that. It's very proactive on their part.
00:06:39 They have such big teams because there's one lady in Stuttgart
00:06:44 that likes polkas from the '60s.
00:06:50 They know her. They're calling her.
00:06:52 It's a proactive thing. They've done everybody's appraisals.
00:06:57 They know who has what.
00:06:59 And they're basically data companies in a way,
00:07:04 and they're art companies.
00:07:06 So they're trying to combine technology,
00:07:09 being a tech company in some ways, a data company, and an art company.
00:07:13 It's like you need to have that sense here too of like,
00:07:17 what's going to be commercially valuable for this fair
00:07:21 versus what's going to be good art for this fair.
00:07:24 And you're always trying to play around with those two things.
00:07:28 And your job, and I'm saying it's analogous to special artists,
00:07:32 to the auction house, is how to balance and make that sweet spot
00:07:36 and satisfy two sets of clienteles, the buyers and the sellers.
00:07:43 Yeah. I mean, the kind of theatrics and illusion of the art market
00:07:50 is also very much present in the work of galleries.
00:07:57 But let's...
00:07:58 How about... It's important at the art fairs.
00:08:01 I mean, I went to an art fair last year,
00:08:04 and I got a press release at 10.01 that the gallery had sold out its booth.
00:08:09 Fair opened at 10. So it's like, really? One minute?
00:08:14 They sold 14 paintings for an average of $300,000.
00:08:19 That's hard to do.
00:08:21 So there's a theatric and illusion of the galleries
00:08:26 sending press releases saying they sold this, saying things are great.
00:08:31 It's all this false notion of transparency.
00:08:36 Yeah. I mean, I...
00:08:39 Yes, I agree with that. But on the other hand...
00:08:42 When you say but, that means you don't.
00:08:44 No, but I do know of one very important gallery that here comes to Cologne,
00:08:52 and they've been in discussion regarding works,
00:08:57 and the collectors come to the fair,
00:09:01 and they look at the work, and then they say, "Yes, I'll take it."
00:09:05 You know, it's like, "I want it, but I really want to have a look at it in person before."
00:09:10 And that old-fashioned thing of, "Let me see the artwork before we buy it."
00:09:15 Yeah.
00:09:15 That's a good... That's generally a good rule of thumb.
00:09:19 But, you know, one thing about the German art market that's very interesting,
00:09:21 and something I really love, is they...
00:09:24 And nothing against our consultants.
00:09:26 I think our consultants play an important role.
00:09:30 But it's... A lot of the German collectors still like to make their own decisions,
00:09:34 and they go look at work, and they, you know... I like that.
00:09:40 And...
00:09:40 As an art advisor or consultant, my clients make their own decisions.
00:09:46 Yeah, of course.
00:09:47 So...
00:09:48 Tell us about that.
00:09:50 Well, I'm saying...
00:09:54 Sometimes they can't physically see it.
00:09:56 So you have to be their eyes, and understand what to look at, and having discussed it.
00:10:04 So I would say, one of us needs to see it.
00:10:07 Now, during lockdown, that became difficult.
00:10:11 Though there was a big business in New York of people showing art at the biggest private airport.
00:10:18 Somebody would fly a painting in, open the crate, somebody else would fly in.
00:10:23 They would never see each other in the painting, would transact and get on a plane.
00:10:28 But that was...
00:10:30 You know, we got a little bit used to the PDFs and the JPEGs, and the speed of things, of looking.
00:10:38 And I think the rebound of the art fairs is because people want to smell it in person.
00:10:45 Which is good, right?
00:10:46 Yeah.
00:10:47 I mean, there was a story that my predecessor told me at Art Cologne one year.
00:10:53 A Gerhard Richter painting was in the stand of one gallery.
00:10:57 And that painting sold, or it turned over...
00:11:03 It changed hands eight times.
00:11:06 During the fair?
00:11:07 During the fair.
00:11:08 And it was still hanging in the original gallery's booth by the time...
00:11:13 You know, the eighth person who bought it for, I don't know, a price that was maybe ten times higher than what the original gallery was asking for.
00:11:24 That buyer didn't have a very good art advisor.
00:11:27 Yeah.
00:11:28 Exactly.
00:11:28 No, and you're right.
00:11:30 You know, you're right.
00:11:31 There are...
00:11:32 I mean, in other cases, you know, not every work by every artist is equal.
00:11:38 Yeah?
00:11:39 You have good examples of works by certain artists.
00:11:42 You have bad examples.
00:11:44 You have weak examples.
00:11:45 You have, you know, people are like, "Oh, that's not a very good...
00:11:49 I don't know.
00:11:49 That's not a good Cindy Sherman."
00:11:51 You know?
00:11:51 "That's a great Cindy Sherman."
00:11:53 So I agree.
00:11:54 I was at a collector's house...
00:11:58 A young collector's house a couple years ago.
00:12:01 And we were talking about art, and he said, "Oh, you know, we got on the subject of Gunter Urquhart."
00:12:11 I said, "Yeah, you know, it's actually a pretty high price right now."
00:12:16 "Oh, no, but I got a great price, you know."
00:12:19 And I was like, "Yeah, you know, you gotta watch out.
00:12:23 You know, there's a certain series of prints, pre-Getro, where it's not drawn, but there's a...
00:12:33 And you really have to watch out with those, because they tend to be overpriced."
00:12:38 And then he showed it to me, and voila, it was exactly what I was talking about, what you should avoid.
00:12:44 And I was so embarrassed.
00:12:46 I was really like, "Oh, shit."
00:12:47 I thought he had bought, like, an actual unique original work.
00:12:51 So, I mean, yes, there are good reasons to have an art advisor.
00:12:58 Well, we have so much more information readily available that makes us believe we're educated.
00:13:08 So we're highly informed, but we're not necessarily that educated.
00:13:15 And it's, again, issues of quality, issues of condition, for me, history, when something was made.
00:13:26 And I think, you know, we all have a way that we look at art.
00:13:30 So how do we start?
00:13:32 You know, it's like shifting a little bit, but it's like, I look at when something was made, the history.
00:13:38 My wife looks at the beauty, okay?
00:13:41 Both valid ways, and then we sort of start winding our way to see if we can get to the same place.
00:13:49 I think, you know, you walk through here, there's thousands of pictures.
00:13:52 How do you process all this?
00:13:55 What are you looking for?
00:13:57 What information are you taking in?
00:13:59 And more importantly, how are you getting your information?
00:14:02 So in terms of that, people who collect art can be really incredibly siloed in their knowledge.
00:14:09 They know everything about Gunter Urquhart.
00:14:14 The good year, the bad year, what it means.
00:14:17 And then you mention another artist, they go, "Who's that?"
00:14:20 And that's normal for a collector, because they have jobs.
00:14:25 Now, if you're a gallerist or a critic or a curator, you need to also be broad.
00:14:31 So it's like, how do you get all that information?
00:14:34 There's millions of artists.
00:14:36 There's billions of galleries.
00:14:38 I mean, how would you sort through that?
00:14:41 It's like, you need to actually think this through as advice.
00:14:46 Like, what am I doing?
00:14:48 I mean, how am I even walking around here?
00:14:50 Do I go down the middle areas?
00:14:52 Do I try to find things I already know about?
00:14:55 Am I looking for just something to grasp my eye?
00:15:00 How do you process that?
00:15:02 I mean, how do you do it when you walk in a fair?
00:15:05 What do you do?
00:15:06 Well, when I walk through the fair, I look--
00:15:09 Not your fair, a different fair.
00:15:10 Oh, when I look at different fairs.
00:15:12 Well, it's hard to kind of get to--
00:15:15 I like to-- like, all right, let's talk about--
00:15:23 I think everyone can relate to this.
00:15:25 Basel.
00:15:25 It took me about 15 years of visiting Art Basel to finally figure out
00:15:32 how to navigate the fair layout to see everything.
00:15:38 Because I would always-- first, I would always do the circle on the inside,
00:15:41 and then I'd do the circle on the outside.
00:15:43 And then I'd maybe do--
00:15:45 I'd kind of hit, you know, bomb the specific galleries
00:15:48 I wanted to go visit and say hi to.
00:15:51 And that was it.
00:15:52 And I finally figured out, you just start in one corner,
00:15:55 you go all the way up, and you zigzag your way back and forth.
00:15:59 And you'll actually get through it.
00:16:00 Which floor do you start on?
00:16:01 There's the super expensive stuff versus the very expensive stuff.
00:16:05 That depends what I'm wearing.
00:16:07 All right, so if it's--
00:16:09 If you're wearing a suit, you start with the less expensive.
00:16:11 No, if I'm wearing a suit, I go downstairs to the modern.
00:16:15 If I'm wearing jeans and a t-shirt, I go upstairs to the contemporary.
00:16:21 I'll go to Lista.
00:16:23 If I'm really casual, if I'm wearing a suit, I'll-- yeah.
00:16:27 I mean, it kind of does, but it's also the days.
00:16:29 I don't like to go to--
00:16:30 By the way, wearing a suit is a giveaway that you're not a buyer,
00:16:34 just so you know.
00:16:35 It's the guys with the sneakers that cost $800.
00:16:40 The jeans are not ripped.
00:16:43 Those are the buyers.
00:16:44 So the suit, you're either an art advisor,
00:16:47 or you're just like, got dressed up for the fair.
00:16:50 Andrew Kreps told me a story once at the Armory show
00:16:54 when it was on the piers.
00:16:58 So Andrew Kreps is a New York gallery.
00:17:01 Started in the mid '90s.
00:17:05 Anyway, he said this really poorly dressed man
00:17:08 in acid-washed bell bottoms and a kind of dirty t-shirt
00:17:13 came into his booth with a Russian accent.
00:17:15 And he's like, how much is this worth?
00:17:19 And he's like, good, I'll take it.
00:17:22 And he's like, well, where should I--
00:17:23 you know what?
00:17:25 He's like, can I take it now?
00:17:27 Can I ship it now?
00:17:29 And he's like, yeah, yeah, sure.
00:17:31 Where to?
00:17:33 And he pointed to a boat through the windows into the Hudson
00:17:38 River, and it was a mega yacht.
00:17:40 And he's like, there.
00:17:43 And it was just so--
00:17:44 it is right.
00:17:45 You never know who are the buyers.
00:17:48 And it's in LA.
00:17:50 I remember doing the Art LA Fair.
00:17:54 It was kind of a lull.
00:17:56 There were just people around me,
00:17:57 and I was kind of standing there bored.
00:18:00 And I saw this kind of lost-looking woman.
00:18:02 And a couple, they looked really like average Americans,
00:18:07 kind of lost.
00:18:08 They really looked lost.
00:18:09 And I figured they were looking for the toilets.
00:18:12 And I went to them, and I said, can I help you with anything?
00:18:15 And I really felt like I was doing them a huge favor,
00:18:18 like telling them where the toilets are.
00:18:20 But it just happened to have some time, and I was bored.
00:18:23 And she's like, yes, how much does that work
00:18:25 and that work and the work around the corner?
00:18:28 And they ended up buying three works from me.
00:18:30 And it was like a major collector couple
00:18:34 from Seattle, Washington that were in the computer tech
00:18:40 whatever.
00:18:40 My favorite story is a friend of mine, Irish.
00:18:43 She was like a poor, starving artist.
00:18:45 And she took her childhood friend around Soho.
00:18:49 This was in the '90s.
00:18:50 And she went to one of the big galleries,
00:18:52 in Ronald Felton Gallery.
00:18:53 And the guy says, how much does that work?
00:18:56 And they say, it's very expensive.
00:18:58 And he goes, OK, what's the price?
00:19:01 It's like, it's expensive.
00:19:04 After like 10 minutes, they got to like it was $25,000.
00:19:08 It was Bono.
00:19:10 They didn't recognize him.
00:19:12 And he's like, please, can I just--
00:19:16 I think he just tell me-- and U2 was a big band back then.
00:19:19 It's like, the art world doesn't follow pop culture so well
00:19:25 always.
00:19:26 But I will say about that couple, when I was a kid,
00:19:29 there's a famous collector's name, Herb and Dorothy Vogel.
00:19:34 And there's a great film about these collectors.
00:19:36 They're about this tall.
00:19:37 He was a postman.
00:19:40 And she was a librarian.
00:19:43 And they would hang out at the Cedar Bar meeting artists
00:19:48 starting in the '50s.
00:19:50 And they'd meet the artists.
00:19:51 They wouldn't say anything.
00:19:52 And they would buy like a Rauschenberg for $200,
00:19:57 $20 a month and something.
00:19:58 And they wound up that their collection
00:20:00 is in 50 states in museums around America.
00:20:05 They lived on the salary of the postman.
00:20:08 And they bought on the salary of the librarian.
00:20:10 She was a librarian.
00:20:12 In a one-bedroom apartment.
00:20:14 It's a great story.
00:20:15 Can't happen anymore.
00:20:17 Well, hold on.
00:20:19 I think it's timing.
00:20:20 It's got a lot to do with timing.
00:20:22 Because at that point in time, people were--
00:20:25 I mean, you had the Skulls.
00:20:28 The Skulls were buying them.
00:20:29 But he was rich.
00:20:30 Yeah, yeah.
00:20:31 But the Skulls were--
00:20:32 I think the only ones were buying Rauschenberg.
00:20:35 There were--
00:20:36 You know who was buying all that shit?
00:20:39 Ludwig.
00:20:40 It was the Germans.
00:20:42 So Americans had to go over here.
00:20:44 That's how you have all this great stuff here.
00:20:47 Because no one in America was buying that.
00:20:50 Yeah, I mean--
00:20:55 All right, so--
00:20:56 You think a guy, a postman, a librarian,
00:21:01 can now build a great art collection starting today?
00:21:04 No, no.
00:21:05 But I think when the market--
00:21:07 market's always correct.
00:21:09 And different parts of the market
00:21:10 correct at different times and adjust.
00:21:15 And I was just talking to a collector from Aachen
00:21:19 who buys contemporary art.
00:21:21 But he also buys old masters and antiques, glass, antique glass.
00:21:29 And he said the deals he's finding now are fantastic.
00:21:34 I mean, for $5,000, you can buy amazing sort
00:21:36 of second level old masters.
00:21:39 You can't buy anything on the contemporary market
00:21:44 with that.
00:21:45 I mean, nothing unique at least.
00:21:49 So it's really-- I think it's a matter of timing.
00:21:53 I think there's been a lot of speculation in the US market
00:22:00 partially through not the good art consultants,
00:22:05 but there's also Charlotte art consultants who just have--
00:22:08 there's just art consultants that
00:22:10 have a huge network of very high--
00:22:13 when I had my gallery, there were maybe three art
00:22:16 consultants in the world 30, 40 years ago.
00:22:19 Now there's probably three in this room.
00:22:23 And the term that somebody came up with,
00:22:26 Gmail art advisors.
00:22:29 And you don't need a license.
00:22:32 You don't need any knowledge.
00:22:34 Actually, knowledge is bad.
00:22:36 You just need to know somebody with money.
00:22:38 And that's always going to end badly in any field.
00:22:44 So you've had a lot of trades.
00:22:49 I mean, in the art world, you're-- well, number one,
00:22:52 you grew up with art.
00:22:54 I mean, your mother is a Joe Bear.
00:22:56 Quite--
00:22:57 How many saw her retrospective at the Ludwig 10 years ago?
00:23:00 Anybody?
00:23:01 OK.
00:23:03 And then you--
00:23:06 you were a gallerist from, I think, 1989 to--
00:23:11 '85 to '94.
00:23:14 OK.
00:23:15 And--
00:23:15 I had a record company.
00:23:16 I had a magazine.
00:23:18 I represented performers.
00:23:20 I did sweeping up construction when I couldn't pay my rent.
00:23:26 I did it all.
00:23:27 And-- but the Bear Facts--
00:23:29 you're probably most well-known for the Bear Facts.
00:23:31 And that's-- you started that in 1992?
00:23:34 1994.
00:23:35 When I closed my gallery, and there
00:23:38 was this new thing called the fax machine.
00:23:40 Anybody under 25 here not know what a fax machine is?
00:23:45 Never heard that little sound go off
00:23:48 and went running for the machine that something was coming?
00:23:51 Oh my god, it's got to be important.
00:23:53 OK.
00:23:53 So in 1994, there was big technology switch.
00:23:58 And the thing about the--
00:24:00 so I did this newsletter.
00:24:02 It was sent by fax with a play on words.
00:24:05 Because in the narrow part of the art world,
00:24:10 it's kind of cool if you're someplace, and you say, oh,
00:24:14 do you know who the new architect for MoMA is?
00:24:16 And then everybody at dinner says no.
00:24:18 And you say, well, it's so-and-so.
00:24:20 How'd you find that out?
00:24:21 Or did you know that so-and-so is now
00:24:25 showing at this gallery?
00:24:26 No.
00:24:27 Information is valuable in terms of the art market
00:24:31 and inside information, which is illegal on Wall Street,
00:24:36 is good form in the art business.
00:24:39 If you don't know that something's happening, and I do,
00:24:42 I have an edge.
00:24:43 So back then, it took like two months for anything
00:24:47 to get into art in America that someone did this or that.
00:24:51 I said, oh, I have this idea.
00:24:54 It was kind of like one of the shower ideas.
00:24:57 You know, like, oh, I'll do this newsletter.
00:25:00 And subscriber number one was David Zerner, $99.
00:25:04 Thank you, David.
00:25:06 And it's become kind of like a valuable asset to the art market
00:25:14 community.
00:25:15 But it's nowhere near as important
00:25:17 as what artists and galleries are doing.
00:25:22 That is, it's a tool.
00:25:25 We're a content company, so we're--
00:25:27 I think we do great stuff, but it's still--
00:25:30 it's not what a gallery does.
00:25:32 You like it?
00:25:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:35 No, I--
00:25:38 So again, how do you get information?
00:25:42 My job, we do podcasts.
00:25:45 We do video.
00:25:46 We do op-eds with museum people.
00:25:50 We do live streaming.
00:25:53 It's like, how do we make things accessible
00:25:58 and be important knowledge at the same time?
00:26:04 It's like, how do we not make things
00:26:07 Art World 101 for dummies?
00:26:11 And that's-- for me, that's always been the goal.
00:26:15 In the same way that we were talking
00:26:17 about clients liking things, I have
00:26:20 clients who don't know very much about art.
00:26:24 They're incredibly successful.
00:26:26 They're usually the smartest person in the room.
00:26:29 Suddenly, they're here, and it's like, what's going on?
00:26:34 So it's like, how to raise the level of the discourse
00:26:37 to a high level without the sort of rigmarole of,
00:26:43 well, it relates to Mark Kruger's thing
00:26:45 that you saw in Venice.
00:26:47 You can't play that game.
00:26:48 You have to teach in a way that respects the audience
00:26:53 and then at the same time gives them real information.
00:26:57 And that's-- for me, that's a goal.
00:27:00 I do it with a very niche part of the big part of the art
00:27:02 world, and my ultimate goal is like,
00:27:05 how do I communicate as a media company to people like you?
00:27:10 It's like, how many people have heard of David Zerner?
00:27:13 Raise your hand.
00:27:15 OK, so there you go.
00:27:17 He's the most important dealer in the world almost.
00:27:19 And like half of you--
00:27:21 so it's like, OK, so if I'm talking about him,
00:27:24 it's meaningless.
00:27:26 So I have to find a way to talk to people who come
00:27:28 on day three of an art fair.
00:27:31 They bought a ticket for $50.
00:27:32 They didn't even get one of these VIP things.
00:27:35 And they bought something for 4,000 euros.
00:27:39 That's a big audience.
00:27:40 That's different than the audience
00:27:42 that's buying the $100 million Picasso.
00:27:45 So I have that $100 million Picasso audience.
00:27:48 But it's also-- my goal is, how do I communicate better
00:27:52 to groups like this?
00:27:54 That's why I do events like this,
00:27:56 to try to reach out and say, there are ways to learn.
00:28:00 Definitely.
00:28:04 Was there a question?
00:28:05 No.
00:28:10 I mean, I would say, I think it's--
00:28:14 I think it's great how--
00:28:15 I mean, the BareFax is always kind of this insider thing,
00:28:18 sort of like the professional to professional
00:28:21 within the art world.
00:28:23 And I think it's fantastic how you're kind of turning it
00:28:28 around and opening it up to a broader audience.
00:28:32 And I think that's--
00:28:33 I mean, to making the podcasts, social media, all of that
00:28:38 is quite--
00:28:39 I think the content's really great.
00:28:42 So I think that's that kind of development.
00:28:46 Well, the internet has changed how
00:28:48 we get information and news.
00:28:50 So people don't even buy the newspaper anymore.
00:28:54 So how do we compete with a 24/7 news cycle?
00:29:00 It's harder now than it was for a media company.
00:29:04 So you have to provide something that's sort of specific there.
00:29:09 It's just, I think, you have the same challenges.
00:29:12 Like, how do you provide for yesterday?
00:29:14 Yesterday was the VIP.
00:29:17 It's like, for them.
00:29:18 And how do you provide for today, both for the galleries
00:29:23 and for the viewers?
00:29:24 It's a challenge.
00:29:26 It's pretty interesting.
00:29:28 I miss the kind of filter that newspapers provided.
00:29:33 You kind of know what--
00:29:35 in which direction the news would
00:29:39 go when you bought The New York Times, for instance,
00:29:42 or if you bought The Wall Street Journal.
00:29:44 But you run across an article, I didn't
00:29:46 think I was interested in pig farming.
00:29:48 Hey, that's kind of interesting.
00:29:50 You don't have that when you're scanning on your phone.
00:29:54 So discovery has become more difficult
00:29:58 because we're saturated with information.
00:30:01 I think it's also about believability.
00:30:04 And that's where this whole kind of fake news thing came in.
00:30:08 If you have all the news accessible on one channel,
00:30:13 you have to kind of make sense of what's real, what's right,
00:30:16 what's wrong.
00:30:18 And that's where I think we'll see more kind of platforms
00:30:26 that provide a filter.
00:30:28 I mean, almost like in Arkansas, to scare the people.
00:30:32 And I think that's super--
00:30:37 I think, again, how do you get information?
00:30:40 How many galleries are there here?
00:30:41 170.
00:30:43 170.
00:30:44 So if you spent three minutes in each one,
00:30:49 you'd be here almost seven hours, three minutes in each.
00:30:55 And if each one has 20 works of art,
00:30:58 let's see, 20 into three minutes,
00:30:59 that's what maximum, like eight seconds of work, undoable.
00:31:05 Same with going to Documenta.
00:31:07 They got like 900 hours of video.
00:31:09 I'm there for a day.
00:31:10 How am I supposed to go look at that show?
00:31:13 If Documenta is ever going to happen again,
00:31:15 that's another story.
00:31:17 But it's like, so how do we go about it?
00:31:21 Do we go to what we already understand?
00:31:23 Do we go-- I mean, for me, I'd do something different.
00:31:27 It's like, most of it's noise.
00:31:31 Most of what's here is noise.
00:31:33 Most of what's being sold here in 20 years
00:31:36 will be worth zero.
00:31:38 That's just a reality.
00:31:41 So it's like, for me, I'm trying to tune the noise out.
00:31:45 So it's like focusing on things that are great.
00:31:49 That's my way.
00:31:50 Other people are here for different reasons.
00:31:56 How much is a ticket?
00:31:58 A ticket?
00:31:58 Yeah.
00:31:59 Oh, I'm not sure, to be honest.
00:32:03 It's worth it.
00:32:04 It's less cost than a ticket.
00:32:07 30 euros.
00:32:08 That's--
00:32:08 30 euros.
00:32:09 I'm sure there are exceptions for schools and things like that.
00:32:12 Yeah, yeah, no, they have free access.
00:32:14 But actually, that's pretty good value for 30 euros.
00:32:17 So you can ask a question.
00:32:19 You can look at it, tell me about that work.
00:32:21 How much is it?
00:32:23 Somebody will talk to you.
00:32:24 I mean, it's a great deal.
00:32:25 It's funny that you mentioned Ronald Feldman,
00:32:27 because I think Ronald Feldman was the only gallery in Basel
00:32:31 who was ever kind of mean to me and refused to tell me
00:32:35 the price of something, or just kind of struck me off
00:32:37 like I was some young idiot, which I probably
00:32:40 was at that time.
00:32:42 That's why I think they should--
00:32:44 at an art fair, you have to be a little bit more
00:32:46 open to the prices.
00:32:47 I went into a gallery in Basel, and I said,
00:32:51 how much is that, Richter?
00:32:53 And it says sold.
00:32:54 I said, that's OK.
00:32:57 How much were you asking?
00:32:58 And they just refused to tell me.
00:33:01 And I said, I've got eight of them that I'd like to sell,
00:33:06 but you're rude.
00:33:08 And I walked out, and they started chasing me.
00:33:11 I said, I don't want to talk to you.
00:33:13 You're standing there, and it's not in your back room
00:33:17 or in your house.
00:33:18 If you have it at the art fair, you should have a price.
00:33:22 I like it when they put the price on the label, personally.
00:33:25 But I'm told that's bad.
00:33:27 But I like it.
00:33:28 I like it.
00:33:29 I mean, there's a few galleries here that do it,
00:33:31 and it's always kind of a pleasure.
00:33:33 What's--
00:33:34 I meant to-- if you do that, then
00:33:36 you don't start a conversation.
00:33:39 Those conversations you're doing aren't leading to the sales
00:33:41 probably anyway, so might as well put the price on.
00:33:44 Yeah, yeah.
00:33:44 Once about-- I don't know.
00:33:46 This is maybe 10 years ago.
00:33:50 I told a journalist during an interview
00:33:53 that the gallerists are there in the booth to take questions,
00:33:59 to answer questions.
00:34:00 And they love talking about their work,
00:34:03 the artists they work with, and to explain the work.
00:34:07 And what you should do is just talk to them.
00:34:10 And sales in our Young section, in the Neumarkt section,
00:34:15 improved because they suddenly decided to talk.
00:34:18 I mean, there's--
00:34:20 I got to say, I walked through, and I'd
00:34:22 say 80% of the people I saw in the booths
00:34:24 were sitting at their laptop, not looking up.
00:34:27 OK?
00:34:29 And by the way, I'm one of the biggest
00:34:31 swinging art consultants in the world.
00:34:35 I just walked past them, and they barely looked up.
00:34:38 I might be smart, so I'm an old guy with white hair,
00:34:43 but just to be standing and saying,
00:34:47 do you have any questions?
00:34:49 I don't know.
00:34:50 It's kind of like better than shopping on Amazon,
00:34:56 looking annoyed that someone's irritating you.
00:34:59 Or when I did art fairs, I did a bunch of them.
00:35:02 I never broke even, but I stood on my feet from minute one
00:35:07 to the last day trying to talk to anybody who came in.
00:35:11 Because that's what you should be doing
00:35:14 if you're having a booth.
00:35:17 Yeah.
00:35:18 I'm telling you, 80% of the people
00:35:19 today are sitting there on their laptops.
00:35:21 Well, OK.
00:35:23 I did a lot of them.
00:35:24 I did Art Basel Miami Beach for about five years.
00:35:28 And what I remember is you have a ton of collectors come in.
00:35:32 They whip out their card.
00:35:34 They say, how much does that work?
00:35:36 And then they shove their card in your face.
00:35:39 And then you pull that into a book.
00:35:41 And then they send me information.
00:35:43 And then all the galleries are like,
00:35:46 look how many contacts I have.
00:35:49 And then they spend a week sending out
00:35:54 emails and images and prices.
00:36:00 And in Germany, I remember there was an American gallery
00:36:03 that did the fair.
00:36:04 And at the end of the fair, I was like, how was it?
00:36:07 And he's like, terrible.
00:36:08 No one gave me a card.
00:36:10 And he opened his card book.
00:36:12 And he's like, see, I got one card.
00:36:14 And I'm like, in Miami, look, this is Miami.
00:36:17 And he shows like-- it's like, brr.
00:36:19 And I'm like, well, did they take cards from you?
00:36:22 He's like, yes.
00:36:23 And Germans are very sensitive about this.
00:36:26 They don't just give out their information.
00:36:28 You're being put that way.
00:36:30 This is what Germans--
00:36:31 It's not just Germans.
00:36:32 This is what Germans do.
00:36:33 They're like, how much does this work?
00:36:35 And you tell them the price.
00:36:36 They're like, thank you.
00:36:37 Do you have a card?
00:36:38 And then they take the card, and they leave.
00:36:40 And then the gallery is like, oh, I can send you a PDF.
00:36:45 Would you like me to send you a PDF?
00:36:48 Are you sure you don't want me to send you a PDF?
00:36:50 And it's like, no.
00:36:51 And then three months later, they'll get a phone call.
00:36:55 And they'll be like, is that work still available?
00:36:57 But it starts with like, hi, I'm Josh.
00:37:00 They say, nice to meet you.
00:37:02 And they don't tell their name.
00:37:03 Because your name, as a European--
00:37:06 my wife is European-- is a very important thing.
00:37:10 This is a culture in Europe of aristocracy.
00:37:16 And your name defines you as to where you come from
00:37:20 and who you are.
00:37:21 So you don't want to play that card.
00:37:23 In America, what defines you is what you do
00:37:26 and how much you make.
00:37:28 So your name doesn't matter, because it's a new country.
00:37:32 So Europeans just not going to tell you--
00:37:35 That's true.
00:37:35 That's, you know, oh, my name is Arnaud, OK?
00:37:40 Or my name is Von--
00:37:43 we've got some people in here that have some titles.
00:37:47 A friend of mine was here earlier.
00:37:49 That matters in Europe.
00:37:51 So it's partially that.
00:37:53 It's a remnant of aristocracy.
00:37:58 Is it rude in the US when you meet someone
00:38:01 to ask them what they do?
00:38:03 They tell you.
00:38:05 That's right.
00:38:06 Hey, I'm Josh Barrett.
00:38:07 Did you see my G5 at the airport?
00:38:09 I'm like, my article in Forbes.
00:38:12 Here's my card.
00:38:14 Send me a photo.
00:38:15 It's a completely opposite kind of thing.
00:38:20 And it's easier in some ways.
00:38:27 But it's just different.
00:38:28 So what's the mood like in New York to change the subject?
00:38:35 The reason I brought up the auctions
00:38:36 was to kind of-- what's going on in the art world.
00:38:40 You're one of the most well-informed people
00:38:44 in the art world in New York.
00:38:46 Do you think it's--
00:38:50 Whether there's--
00:38:50 --this is dire, do you think it's going to be--
00:38:53 Well, there's the geopolitical situation.
00:38:55 I mean, let's be honest.
00:38:56 We're here looking at beauty, trying to see spiritual things.
00:39:01 And there's shit out there that's not--
00:39:04 it's real.
00:39:06 So that's-- either people have become a little bit
00:39:10 immune in the last two years on one war, or one month,
00:39:16 depending on how you define things, in another war.
00:39:19 So there's been a sense of shock.
00:39:24 And it's waning for some and not waning for others.
00:39:30 We certainly, in America, have an election coming up.
00:39:34 And that's just going to get worse and worse.
00:39:37 And we're at a point now where people aren't really
00:39:41 talking to each other.
00:39:43 And--
00:39:44 Within the art world.
00:39:46 Just in the world.
00:39:47 Well--
00:39:47 So I think that's this cloud that's
00:39:51 hanging over any of us who are--
00:39:57 has multiple-- can walk and chew gum.
00:40:00 So I think there's that now.
00:40:03 Art is a funny thing.
00:40:06 I often tell people, everything about--
00:40:08 that's why people who come in who are new to it
00:40:11 have a hard time.
00:40:12 Everything about the art market in our world
00:40:14 is counterintuitive.
00:40:16 So while war is going on, don't buy art.
00:40:21 There's something beyond retail therapy that's going on, too.
00:40:26 I mean, during a war, some people go buy sweaters.
00:40:31 I feel better.
00:40:32 They go out for-- they drink more.
00:40:34 They party.
00:40:35 And people buy art.
00:40:38 One reason is just to preserve this illusion
00:40:42 that things are normal.
00:40:44 But I think there's also a desire
00:40:47 to be a part of something bigger.
00:40:50 A friend of mine--
00:40:51 I'm sort of stealing his line for my next podcast.
00:40:53 But there's a notion of trying to connect to things
00:40:57 beyond ourselves in a troubling time.
00:41:00 And art can be something like that.
00:41:04 So that's going on.
00:41:08 You've got macroeconomic things going on.
00:41:13 And volatility-- as you said before,
00:41:19 things are always correcting.
00:41:20 They're correcting the stock ticker
00:41:23 every day for every artist.
00:41:24 So there's pretty much a lot going on.
00:41:29 It's just more-- more people, more artists, more galleries,
00:41:32 more fairs, more art advisors, less critics.
00:41:35 But it's like, we're like, huh.
00:41:40 I mean, we had this kind of parking crisis
00:41:44 yesterday because of the train strikes throughout Germany,
00:41:51 all of Germany.
00:41:52 Was there a big game on last night that they went--
00:41:54 Oh, all the strikes are out?
00:41:55 They didn't strike--
00:41:57 Sorry, the trains were out of--
00:42:00 anyway, there was no train movement anywhere in Germany.
00:42:04 So that meant people from Frankfurt,
00:42:06 the cities that are like an hour, hour and a half
00:42:08 by train away, many of them didn't come.
00:42:11 And then you had a Madonna concert yesterday over here
00:42:15 in Langenetz, not too far away.
00:42:18 And yeah, all the parking was--
00:42:22 everyone came with car.
00:42:24 There was a lot of traffic.
00:42:25 It was a nightmare.
00:42:25 Three days ago, my director of the fair
00:42:34 told me, chances are there's going
00:42:38 to be a volcano, volcanic eruption in Iceland
00:42:42 in the next few days.
00:42:44 And we had that in 2010, where all the galleries arrived.
00:42:49 And the day after, during setup of the fair,
00:42:52 there was a volcanic--
00:42:54 I think it was called Iwanna Yogurt.
00:42:58 They say this volcano will not affect air traffic.
00:43:00 Yes, it won't because it's not going
00:43:02 through a layer of ice, creating fine particulate matter that
00:43:07 goes into the atmosphere and clogs up plane engines that
00:43:11 makes them crash.
00:43:12 So anyway, we had 440 cancellations.
00:43:17 It was my second edition of our clone.
00:43:19 And the way the art world kind of works, collectively,
00:43:24 it gets excited about something.
00:43:25 It reads about something, not just in Germany, but worldwide.
00:43:29 And we had 440 cancellations from Americans
00:43:36 to visit the fair.
00:43:37 And that meant they lost their plane flights
00:43:41 because it was a natural disaster.
00:43:42 They didn't get their money refunded.
00:43:44 And they did not return in 2011.
00:43:49 They didn't come back the next year.
00:43:51 It was like a moment we just lost that got flushed away.
00:43:57 Everybody complains about the Americans.
00:43:59 Everybody complains about--
00:44:00 I love Americans.
00:44:01 --from New York.
00:44:02 But in fact, everybody, oh my god,
00:44:03 there's somebody here from New York doing a talk.
00:44:05 Or oh my god, where are the Americans?
00:44:07 Are the Americans here?
00:44:09 It's like it's a love-hate thing.
00:44:12 Yeah.
00:44:13 I mean, I do believe that America is the biggest
00:44:19 part of the art market.
00:44:22 Second, the Chinese.
00:44:25 The Claire McAndrews report, Art Basel, Art Mark report,
00:44:30 I just said that in an interview,
00:44:33 that the facts are false.
00:44:35 I mean, how does Claire McAndrews get auction records
00:44:39 to know that the work sold in London at Subby's and Christie's
00:44:45 and Phillips, that those works came from British collectors?
00:44:50 It's a British sale.
00:44:53 But I know a lot of German collectors
00:44:56 that if a work is of a certain value and blue chip,
00:45:00 they're not going to put it at a small local auction house.
00:45:03 They're going to send it to London and auction it there.
00:45:06 Or maybe if it's a really hot American artist,
00:45:09 they're going to sell it in New York.
00:45:12 And so if a European collector sells a work through Subby's
00:45:19 in London, and then Subby's sells it to a Chinese collector,
00:45:25 how is that?
00:45:27 And then they say, well, Subby's has--
00:45:32 I think, where's Britain in that?
00:45:35 2%.
00:45:36 Germany has 2% of the global market.
00:45:39 France has 3% of the global market.
00:45:41 At auction.
00:45:43 No, just according to the--
00:45:45 According--
00:45:46 This is gallery sales.
00:45:47 This is auction sales.
00:45:49 And then I spoke to a lot of--
00:45:51 I know a lot of big German galleries.
00:45:55 And I said, did Claire McAndrews ever talk to you
00:45:58 or ask you to fill out a survey?
00:45:59 And they're like, no.
00:46:01 Did she call you?
00:46:02 No.
00:46:03 So I mean, what do you make of that?
00:46:05 What's the survey?
00:46:08 I like Claire personally.
00:46:09 I'll leave it at that.
00:46:10 OK.
00:46:11 I will say, just to talk about Asia, in a sense,
00:46:18 I think it's a mistake to talk about China.
00:46:22 It makes much more sense to talk about Asia.
00:46:26 I've been three times this year doing
00:46:29 more and more business there in media ways and selling ways.
00:46:35 It is a very complex place.
00:46:39 And it's a mistake to say China.
00:46:43 Because even within China, you have mainland China
00:46:45 versus Hong Kong versus Taiwan.
00:46:48 And the other thing that's interesting-- actually,
00:46:53 the most interesting thing that I learned in the last year
00:46:57 came from a director of an art fair, believe it or not,
00:47:01 a guy named Magnus Renfrew, who runs a bunch of art fairs.
00:47:04 And one of them is Singapore.
00:47:06 And he explained to me something that kind of shocked me,
00:47:10 because it was an assumption that I had that many of us had,
00:47:13 is that Western art means the same thing everywhere.
00:47:20 And it's like that a Gunter Ocher means the same thing
00:47:24 in Germany as it does in Saudi Arabia, as it does in Taipei.
00:47:28 And it doesn't.
00:47:30 Or that our methods of doing things,
00:47:33 sort of the MoMA history of art or how we run an art fair,
00:47:38 that we've always done it that way.
00:47:40 That's the right way to do things.
00:47:41 And that's a mistake to think that way.
00:47:46 So I think we have to be prepared
00:47:49 to think in multiple ways.
00:47:52 And there's something different about somebody from Berlin
00:47:56 than somebody from Munich.
00:47:59 And something different about somebody from Hong Kong
00:48:03 than somebody from Beijing versus Indonesia.
00:48:07 So there's a lot that's going on out there
00:48:10 that the soundbites go 3%, 5%, this or that.
00:48:16 They're missing what's on the ground.
00:48:22 And I will say this about what I do.
00:48:28 I can talk about the art market as a journalist
00:48:30 because I'm in the art market.
00:48:32 If you're a lawyer--
00:48:34 anybody here is a lawyer?
00:48:36 Doctor?
00:48:39 Real estate?
00:48:40 Finance?
00:48:41 Somebody's got a real job in here.
00:48:43 When you see a show on television about a trial that
00:48:48 goes 30 minutes on the TV show, you go, that's ridiculous.
00:48:53 That would take four years.
00:48:54 And they did it in one episode.
00:48:56 It's the same thing about the art business.
00:48:58 It's like the people who are reporting on it
00:49:01 don't know what's going on because they haven't done it.
00:49:03 Same way if you're watching a show about a hospital
00:49:05 and you're a doctor.
00:49:07 Things don't work like that.
00:49:08 So take it-- whatever field you're in,
00:49:12 you've seen press about it.
00:49:14 You have to be like--
00:49:17 I don't know.
00:49:18 There's some cliche about skepticism or something.
00:49:22 Huh.
00:49:23 OK.
00:49:25 That's-- do we have time for questions?
00:49:26 I'm sure there's a doctor and lawyer here.
00:49:28 Can we get some questions?
00:49:30 You want to go to questions?
00:49:31 Yeah, sure.
00:49:31 Should we go-- let's do questions.
00:49:34 Keep this-- keep this--
00:49:35 you can make a frog.
00:49:39 Are there any questions?
00:49:41 This is your chance to speak.
00:49:42 I just went over-- was that you waving?
00:49:45 Or you were-- is that a--
00:49:49 believe me, American people, it's
00:49:51 hard to ask questions before we'd even started.
00:49:54 OK.
00:49:56 No questions?
00:49:59 Should I give you a question?
00:50:00 You can give me a question.
00:50:01 I'll give you a question.
00:50:02 OK.
00:50:03 Why'd you close your gallery?
00:50:07 Generally, a 90% drop in revenue is not a good business
00:50:12 model for success.
00:50:13 So in the early '90s, our market crashed.
00:50:17 Our market was maybe 5% the size.
00:50:20 I'd say three of the top 10 collectors in the world died.
00:50:25 Pace Gallery became Pace Wildenstein.
00:50:28 They almost went out of business.
00:50:30 And so also the prices were so low compared to the operation.
00:50:37 I look back at--
00:50:38 there's an artist I used to show named Lorna Simpson.
00:50:41 Anybody heard of her?
00:50:42 She shows at Houser and Worth.
00:50:44 Her average work now is $400,000.
00:50:47 When I showed her, the average price was $4,000.
00:50:50 I sold 150 of them.
00:50:53 150 times 4,000, 600,000.
00:50:56 150 times 400,000 is $60 million.
00:51:00 So the revenue that you can make to sustain your business
00:51:04 is so much higher now.
00:51:08 And the fixed costs haven't gone up the same amount.
00:51:11 So it was--
00:51:14 I mean, that correction of the early '90s or the art market
00:51:20 crash, it was really--
00:51:23 it really had a terrible effect on Cologne, on Art Cologne,
00:51:28 because it happened at the same time that the art market--
00:51:32 sorry, that the country was reunified.
00:51:36 Suddenly you had a new center in Berlin and a new generation.
00:51:42 I mean, generational-- generations
00:51:46 do have an impact as well.
00:51:49 What, for one generation, is the establishment,
00:51:53 the doors are kind of shut for the new generation.
00:51:56 So the new generation has to do their own thing.
00:51:58 But 90% of restaurants go out of business.
00:52:03 90% of galleries after 5, 10, 20 years go out of business.
00:52:07 It's a natural phenomenon.
00:52:10 The work is so hard.
00:52:11 The pay is bad.
00:52:13 And it's just-- that part of--
00:52:17 then there's a new generation that
00:52:18 comes and says, well, I can do that.
00:52:20 And they don't know anything which is useful.
00:52:22 I mean, when I opened my gallery,
00:52:24 I didn't know anybody who collected art.
00:52:26 Anybody think that's a stupid idea besides me?
00:52:29 In retrospect, when I was young and naive, it's like, OK,
00:52:33 I know a bunch of artists.
00:52:34 I'll do that.
00:52:34 It's like, right now you would start
00:52:37 with, well, I know a bunch of rich people.
00:52:39 I'll open a gallery.
00:52:40 That's not a good reason.
00:52:42 So it's a different time.
00:52:44 But young people filter it through.
00:52:49 Cool.
00:52:50 Well, seems it got busier.
00:52:55 Seems that the 5 o'clock talk is like--
00:53:00 is there another talk?
00:53:01 Are you OK?
00:53:02 I'm good.
00:53:03 We can keep going.
00:53:04 Oh, sure, OK.
00:53:06 So which artists did you represent?
00:53:11 Or who was your most successful artist that you
00:53:13 worked with in retrospect?
00:53:18 I'll start it because I always see the bad side.
00:53:21 Some of the best shows I ever did, no one asked the price.
00:53:24 So there's an important artist in America
00:53:26 who died a long time ago named Gordon Mata Clark.
00:53:29 Oh, yeah.
00:53:30 It's like, I did a show-- no one had done a show
00:53:32 in a gallery in 20 years.
00:53:34 So I do this show, and I'm working with the widow,
00:53:37 and I have all these great objects.
00:53:39 Now they sell it 100 times what I was asking then.
00:53:44 In six weeks, no one said, how much is that drawing?
00:53:46 That's like, I'm proud of that show.
00:53:51 So I did another show, a guy named Jamie Reed.
00:53:55 It was all the original artwork for the Sex Pistols,
00:53:59 the original God Save the Queen, not the poster.
00:54:03 No one asked the price.
00:54:05 So those kinds of things, success is internal.
00:54:09 I would say the projects that I'm most proud of working on
00:54:15 was an artist named Chris Burden, who--
00:54:19 very important artist.
00:54:20 He died maybe five or 10 years ago.
00:54:22 And I worked on projects that he just
00:54:27 had a little tiny conception, and I got them built
00:54:31 and installed into museums.
00:54:33 So I think I'm proud of the hundreds of museum shows
00:54:38 that I helped artists do, managing careers of artists.
00:54:41 That's important.
00:54:44 Right now, galleries are pretty much sales platforms.
00:54:48 That's their role.
00:54:49 The artists now sort of take care of their own business.
00:54:52 They might have managers.
00:54:54 There's a big ecosystem where they
00:54:56 can take care of things themselves,
00:54:58 because they can have a big staff.
00:55:00 So the gallery's role is twofold.
00:55:03 One, to do an exhibition so all your artist friends can see it,
00:55:07 and to sell.
00:55:09 And the role of the art fair has changed.
00:55:12 When I was doing art fairs, my artists were like,
00:55:14 why are you doing that?
00:55:17 Now they'd be like, what do you mean you're not
00:55:19 taking my work to the fair?
00:55:21 And I never broke even on an art fair.
00:55:24 I saw it as marketing and advertising.
00:55:27 Now it is a critical part of the business model
00:55:31 for staying in business, is doing
00:55:33 the right number of art fairs with the right work
00:55:36 to make sure it's Christmas yesterday.
00:55:41 Interesting.
00:55:42 Interesting.
00:55:43 The-- how many people go to Art Basel in Paris?
00:55:56 Is Paris going to replace Basel, Daniel?
00:56:01 I don't know.
00:56:02 I mean, I--
00:56:05 phew, what I did notice, it seems
00:56:07 that the interest in London, in Friis London,
00:56:10 has kind of slowed down, it seems.
00:56:14 I heard from a lot of people that Americans came
00:56:18 for the last day of Friis, went to Paris early
00:56:23 to see the institutional shows, and then to visit
00:56:27 the opening of Paris Plus.
00:56:29 But you know, like galleries have an average lifespan
00:56:32 of five years, art fairs also have a lifespan,
00:56:35 average lifespan of about 15 years.
00:56:39 So everything comes in waves.
00:56:44 I think it's super fascinating because you open your gallery
00:56:53 at a time when the market really exploded.
00:56:56 And it was really first time that the art market really
00:57:00 went into the stratosphere with insane prices.
00:57:05 I remember like Mary Boone selling--
00:57:08 it seems to have been the galleries that were determining
00:57:12 the high prices then, and it wasn't
00:57:14 going to the auction houses because the auction houses
00:57:16 wouldn't touch work that wasn't older than 10 years,
00:57:20 or they wouldn't do like what they--
00:57:22 The auction business was a wholesale business for dealers.
00:57:27 And then it became a retail business.
00:57:29 So that changed.
00:57:31 It was hundreds of years of being a place.
00:57:35 And that's an informational thing.
00:57:37 If I buy something in May at Sotheby's,
00:57:43 and then I bring it to Basel in June,
00:57:45 people know how much I paid for it.
00:57:48 I can't charge the same.
00:57:50 In the old days, you could do that,
00:57:52 and people didn't know what we did.
00:57:54 So you could ask what you want.
00:57:55 Would you say the art market in the '80s
00:58:05 was bigger than the art market today?
00:58:07 Or have we surpassed the level, the height,
00:58:11 of the '80s art market?
00:58:15 In the '80s, out of the Fortune 100 CEOs,
00:58:21 I'd say maybe two of them collected contemporary art.
00:58:28 If you looked at the Fortune 100 CEOs now,
00:58:32 I'd say 98 of them have expensive art on their walls
00:58:37 now, that it became part of what you do.
00:58:41 So it's exponentially bigger.
00:58:45 It's global in ways it never was,
00:58:50 whether it's the Middle East or the Far East.
00:58:53 And it's all the people who have the bug, kept the bug.
00:58:59 So guys who are like 85 and knocking are still at it,
00:59:04 in the same way that some new guy from Abu Dhabi
00:59:10 will start tomorrow.
00:59:13 It's just much more dangerous to drop a million dollars
00:59:22 than to drop $10,000.
00:59:26 My client's pod works for $5,000 and sold it for $30 million.
00:59:30 If you think that's going to happen again, you're wrong.
00:59:34 On the other hand, really, you can spend a lot of money
00:59:39 for like-- and it's much more of an economic gain
00:59:46 than it is today.
00:59:47 We're getting a signal.
00:59:49 OK, I think now comes the next talk.
00:59:52 So--
00:59:53 OK, thank you.
00:59:54 Hey, thank you.
00:59:56 Thank you, Josh, for coming.
00:59:57 Thank you.
00:59:59 Ah!
01:00:01 [APPLAUSE]
01:00:04 [BLANK_AUDIO]