Ghana Teacher Licensure Examination: Fmr. Pres. Mahama vows to discontinue exams if voted into power in 2024 | The Big Stories
Ghana Teacher Licensure Examination: Fmr. Pres. Mahama vows to discontinue exams if voted into power in 2024 | The Big Stories
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00:00:00 Welcome back on the AM show and if you look behind me you can guess we're going
00:00:04 to be talking about the classroom yes education in respect of what former
00:00:10 President John Dramani Mahama has said in terms of cancelling the teacher
00:00:16 licensure exams. Now this has come a long way already the criticisms have started
00:00:22 about the fact that he was going to initiate this in the first place as
00:00:27 captured by the Daily Guide today the Daily Guide newspaper but there are also
00:00:32 the other aspects about the purpose the teacher licensure exam is serving
00:00:37 whether it is up to scratch whether it's the the different aspects that go into
00:00:44 it are fit for purpose whether the failure rates are not indicative of
00:00:50 something fundamentally wrong with the exam itself but on the other end should
00:00:55 we just have these teachers en masse go through the system without having gone
00:01:01 through some testing process without being able to certify that these people
00:01:06 qualify to be in the classrooms. All these dimensions of the conversation
00:01:11 we're going to be having this morning as we're joined by our guests Larry K
00:01:15 Abadow is editor teacher education journal we also have Peter Nortu
00:01:21 Koto, a ranking member Parliament's Education Committee and Dr. Peter Antti
00:01:25 executive director Institute for Education Studies all of them join us
00:01:29 this morning. Good morning gentlemen thank you for joining the conversation
00:01:35 Good morning Bren. Okay so let me see whether I have the others joining the
00:01:44 conversation as of now Mr. Nortu Koto, Dr. Peter Antti can you hear me?
00:01:51 Okay I'm not getting any responses from them. I'm on the line. Hello. Okay
00:02:03 Mr. Nortu Koto a very good morning to you I believe you are the one I'm hearing.
00:02:06 Yes I'm the one. Okay thank you so much sir for joining the conversation. Dr. Antti
00:02:11 can you hear me? Okay you nearly pulled a Houdini on me I couldn't find you.
00:02:20 Anyway so to situate the conversation even before we get to what the former
00:02:26 president has said and there's a video if it's fit for purpose we may just
00:02:31 play it so that it is clear in the minds of you and our viewers what we're
00:02:34 addressing but I'd like to find out from you the 2024 budget okay what is the
00:02:41 overall thinking of it and I want you to situate it within the conversation of
00:02:48 education and what was said about education but before we go there let's
00:02:53 look at what the former president had to say in particular respect of the teacher
00:03:00 licensure exams. Here's former president Bahama.
00:03:04 [inaudible]
00:03:13 2020. [inaudible]
00:03:38 [inaudible]
00:04:06 [inaudible]
00:04:09 [inaudible]
00:04:34 So that was the former president. Gentlemen let me start the conversation
00:04:38 with Dr. Peter Antti on the substantive matter but before we do like I said the
00:04:44 2024 budget had its own dynamics especially in respect of education. What
00:04:50 were your takeaways? Gentlemen I want to hear from you on these matters before we
00:04:54 get to what the former president just said. I'll start with you Dr. Antti.
00:05:02 Dr. Peter Antti if you can hear me please unmute. Yeah I can hear you. Can you hear me
00:05:09 please? I can hear you. Please go ahead. Great. So good morning. I hope everyone is
00:05:17 doing well. Yes I have gone through the 2024 budgets. For me I can just use one
00:05:26 word to express my opinion about that particular budget and it's that it's
00:05:32 uninspiring. It is uninspiring. Aside the fact that we've seen some increasing
00:05:40 competition grant I mean the total amount of money allocated to competition
00:05:44 grants I don't see any other striking initiative in that budget. We are
00:05:54 told of the normal free SHS and other things that they would tell us and and I
00:06:03 was thinking that this being the last budget there would have been both
00:06:07 statements as to how we we look at the free SHS going forward. There will be
00:06:12 both statements as to how we finance basic education. Not just increasing
00:06:17 competition grant but also ensuring that enough infrastructure is provided for
00:06:22 that particular sector. There will be a both statement as to the way forward in
00:06:28 terms of the capping of the of the Get Fund and and so on and so forth. But I I
00:06:33 am it's unfortunate that I would I didn't see any of that thing and that and
00:06:39 for me for the education sector the budget is very very uninspiring. Right
00:06:44 let me come to you Larry Agbado. You are an editor with Teacher Education
00:06:50 Journal. Were you as uninspired as Dr. Antti was or did you find more meat on
00:06:56 the bones? Alright so when you ask the question the first thing that came into
00:07:04 my mind was also uninspiring. So when I heard Dr. Antti mentioned that I was
00:07:08 just smiling. For me this is a budget that for the education sector I see it to be
00:07:17 lifeless especially for the field of teacher education, the colleges of
00:07:22 education. The colleges of education for the past probably six seven years have
00:07:27 been struggling with infrastructure. Governments about two years ago decided
00:07:32 to award 300 bed hostel facility for all the 46 public colleges of education to
00:07:39 address the infrastructure needs that has led to the introduction of the shift
00:07:45 system which they don't want to call double track in the colleges of
00:07:48 education. So in fact those projects were supposed to be completed this year and
00:07:54 as we speak majority of the colleges if not all have not even seen the faces of
00:07:58 the contractors that are supposed to even undertake those projects. So going
00:08:04 into an election year someone like me I was expecting that at least some
00:08:09 priority should be given to the colleges in that regard but it looks like that is
00:08:15 still hiding somewhere and we are we are waiting for God to perform a miracle for
00:08:21 the colleges in the one year ahead because it's really causing a lot of
00:08:26 problem in the training of teachers for our country. Thank you for those initial
00:08:32 thoughts. Mr. Koto you'll have the last word on the 2024 budget in respect of
00:08:39 education and what you you make of it. The two earlier speakers have said they
00:08:43 found it uninspiring. What do you think? How did you find it?
00:08:48 Hello Mr. Nwachukotu. Yes I said that I have found it very disappointing. Okay.
00:08:56 Yeah because I expected the budget to talk very much about the declining
00:09:04 quality of basic education in the country. If you go around the country you
00:09:11 realize that the infrastructure that we have in our basic schools is deteriorating.
00:09:17 Furniture is a challenge, supply of a TLM is a challenge, payment of a
00:09:25 capitation grants and even payment for the registration of students for the BEC
00:09:33 examinations and as well as the WASE is a very big challenge as we speak now.
00:09:38 Government is still owing YF for this year's BEC. Government is still owing YF for this year's WASE
00:09:48 and also owing for 20 part of 2022 WASE. So the situation is very bad and the
00:09:57 minister did not tell us how they were going to resource basic education in the
00:10:03 country to lay a very good foundation for the future. So I see the future of
00:10:08 education very bleak and this budget has not addressed it in any way. So for me
00:10:13 it's very disappointing. Just a quick one that came to mind. There's also this
00:10:19 problem that we faced in recent times. It's not just nurses that are leaving
00:10:24 the country in droves for economic purposes. Teachers are also leaving in
00:10:29 droves and we've heard from you know NAT among other groups that we have to stem
00:10:35 the tide of saying. I didn't see much that would stem the tide of that as far
00:10:41 as the 2024 budget is concerned. How do you feel about that gentlemen? I'll start
00:10:45 with you Mr. Koto. Just quick reflections because I don't think we've really
00:10:49 discussed that matter. Yes, the budget has not addressed that issue at all. What are
00:10:56 we doing for teachers so that they can remain in the country and then teach our
00:11:02 children? Nothing of that nature. No motivation for teachers as you mentioned
00:11:07 in the budget. Especially those in the rural areas who have volunteered that
00:11:14 despite the conditions they will stay there and they teach our world for us.
00:11:19 There's no provision or there's nothing to motivate them to make sure that they
00:11:26 deliver and for those who are leaving it is because of ABCD. Can we start doing
00:11:30 this so that we can retain them in the country? So the budget as I said has
00:11:36 disappointed me and I don't see any good future in the budget for this year to
00:11:42 provide any incentives for teachers to remain at post. Dr. Antti? Same with me. I think that
00:11:53 normally we try to address challenges as and when they come in. In this
00:11:59 time as we are experiencing, this is one of the things that is happening to
00:12:04 the sector and I was thinking that there would have been at least a line or two
00:12:08 to indicate the admittance of that particular challenge and then a
00:12:14 possible way forward in addressing it. But as I said this is a very uninspiring
00:12:19 budget. It's like just performing an annual ritual and that is what it was.
00:12:25 For you Larry? Yeah so I wasn't actually surprised not hearing the Minister for
00:12:36 Finance not speaking on that area because the issue also comes up with
00:12:42 whether we have the financial muzzle. Government has given the financial
00:12:49 clearance to the respective agencies like GES and the rest to recruit these
00:12:55 teachers who are running or even those who are in the system already whether we
00:12:59 are providing enough incentives for them to motivate them to stay back. So looking
00:13:05 at a myriad of challenges we already have and I wasn't even expecting
00:13:09 government to even look at that area. Going forward I suspect or expect that
00:13:16 we are likely to be able to recruit more teachers living in the coming years and
00:13:24 it may be seen as a bad thing but on the other hand it may actually also be taking
00:13:29 the burden of government. I see it may be taking the burden of government in which
00:13:36 in which particular sense do you mean? Because if we have all this human
00:13:42 resource at our disposal we are not able to recruit them. We are not able to
00:13:46 provide adequate incentives for them to stay back and they find opportunities
00:13:54 elsewhere. And you know successive government move from NBC to NPP now in
00:14:00 the past have all been championing this cause of exporting teachers. So probably
00:14:06 it just falls in line with what they have been talking about over the years
00:14:11 but it's something that we should critically also look at so that going
00:14:17 forward it hasn't caused a huge problem to us back here but in a whole we
00:14:24 can look at it from both sides of the coin as to providing opportunities for
00:14:30 those who are here and not also getting any offer and getting there and then
00:14:34 they have everything at their disposal. So I think I think it's a conversation
00:14:39 that we can delve into looking at both sides of it. Let's now get to the
00:14:45 substantive issue of the teacher licensure exams. Some would say the
00:14:49 former president has stirred the hornet's nest or opened the Pandora's
00:14:52 box whichever way you want to look at it. Some are in support of what he said
00:14:56 others say no this is mere propaganda. But how do we separate the fact from the
00:15:02 fiction? I would like Peter Nochukotu to start off with your assessment and this
00:15:08 is going to be the general question to all three of you before we get to what
00:15:13 exactly the way forward is. So far the teacher licensure exam has it served its
00:15:19 purpose? Has it lived up to expectation? What it was meant to bring to bear in
00:15:24 terms of the quality of teaching staff in our country? I'll start with you Mr.
00:15:31 Nochukotu. Has it lived up to expectation?
00:15:35 So if you look at the education bodies regulatory act of 2020, that's act 1023.
00:15:46 The National Teaching Council is mandated to conduct or award licenses to
00:15:59 teachers so that they can operate as teachers and the authority or the
00:16:07 council decided to use the examination model. That is where we depart from the
00:16:16 current administration of a licensure examination. You cannot use a two-hour
00:16:22 or three-hour sit-down paper to license a teacher. You know a teacher all over
00:16:30 the years have undergone various forms of teacher education. We started with the
00:16:38 two-year set B, went to set A four years, two years post diploma, three years
00:16:49 post teacher certificate to diploma. Now it is a first degree. So you can see the
00:16:57 changes that have taken over the years and we feel that every teacher has
00:17:05 something to offer. If a teacher goes to the classroom, what do we expect of that
00:17:11 teacher? The teacher must be academically prepared, that is the pedagogy. Then again
00:17:18 he must also be professionally prepared. So we see two things about the teacher.
00:17:24 So for us as a NDC or the minority, we are of the view that this current
00:17:33 assessment is not the best and we have different pathways that we can use to
00:17:39 license the teacher. Not necessarily sitting down for a three or four hour
00:17:44 paper and if the person does not do well, he is set to fail as a teacher and he
00:17:50 cannot perform or he cannot practice as a teacher. For us, that is where we
00:17:57 depart from the implementation of the act. Okay, so clarify for me because the
00:18:03 former president said he would actually cancel the teacher licensure exam. So the
00:18:09 clarity you're bringing to the matter is that you are for some form of exam
00:18:15 to qualify people to teach but not in the shape and form we have it now with
00:18:22 the teacher licensure exam. Is that what you're saying? Yes, exactly so and that's what
00:18:25 the president also said. You know we have 46 colleges of education in this
00:18:32 country and they are being mentored or supervised by different universities in
00:18:38 the country and they have faculties. We know there's a harmonization of the
00:18:44 faculties of these very advising universities. So they must make sure that
00:18:49 the pedagogy, that is the content, subject content is the same across board so that
00:18:56 the level of literacy, the level of numeracy will be the same for all
00:19:02 teacher trainees at the various colleges of education. Now as I said they
00:19:09 all have faculties and what is important is that it must be made part of the
00:19:16 faculty curriculum. So there should be credit courses leading to the award of a
00:19:22 license. For example if there is a teacher being trained to come out and teach chemistry
00:19:29 we must take some examination in that chemistry to prepare him for licensure
00:19:37 as a teacher in chemistry. If there is someone going to teach geography or basic
00:19:43 education, yes we must take some courses that will make that assessment good at
00:19:49 the end. So we are of the view that the licensure or licensing teachers has
00:19:56 become worldwide but the model we are using now is not the best. You cannot use
00:20:02 this sit-down program just to assess a teacher that he can teach or he cannot
00:20:09 teach. So we are saying that we will develop portfolios of teachers and that
00:20:16 portfolio will continue with them throughout the practice of their
00:20:21 profession. You know by law you have to renew your license. What portfolio are
00:20:27 you building for the teacher over the years as he is teaching? So we feel very
00:20:32 strongly that the examination as it is now does not give out the best
00:20:39 of teachers. You are subjecting them to some form of assessment which for me
00:20:49 does not depict, does not exhibit the talent that is in the teacher. So the
00:20:57 President Mahama'a as he was saying is that we will give them license but it
00:21:03 shall be made part of the course that we will do, supervised by the faculty and
00:21:10 they will make sure that the professional body that is set up to take
00:21:15 care of these things are part of the curriculum at the colleges of education
00:21:20 where the pedagogy and the professional ethics of the teacher will be part of
00:21:25 the subjects that they will be taking. So you take ready courses, you pass and then
00:21:31 you are given the license, not a two or three hour paper. That is an aptitude
00:21:37 test. What they are doing now is aptitude test. It is not a test of pedagogy or
00:21:42 professional ethics. That's how we see it. Okay so you say it's an aptitude test and not a
00:21:49 real test of pedagogy. All right let me come to Larry back to you. What do you
00:21:58 make first of all, do you feel the teacher licensure exam has lived up to
00:22:02 expectation? Has it served its purpose before we even get into you know these
00:22:08 other aspects that are being brought to bear? All right thank you very much Ben.
00:22:13 So just a quick one. When you are having your new paper issue, you mentioned a
00:22:17 code that I fell so much in love with that one of the great mistakes is to
00:22:21 judge policies and programs rather than their results. I think it is this one let me reiterate for you.
00:22:28 Page 17 of the daily graphic today says it's from Milton Friedman, a Nobel Prize
00:22:33 winning economist. He says one of the great mistakes is to judge policies and
00:22:38 programs by their intentions rather than their results. Very good. So for me this
00:22:48 like I said oh I I feel a such...
00:22:54 Hello Larry?
00:23:00 Larry we lost you, we lost you briefly. We've lost you for about 30
00:23:10 seconds. You say you feel something right after the quote just go back to your
00:23:13 thoughts. Yeah so right after the quote what I was saying is that I feel a certain portion of our
00:23:19 national life should not be subjected to partisan politics and one of these
00:23:24 aspects is education. So it's it sometimes baffles some of us that we
00:23:33 have to subject a very critical aspect of our national life like education to
00:23:38 partisan politics. Look the Ghana teacher licensure examination is just like one
00:23:45 of those exams that any other professional body like the Ghana Law
00:23:50 School, the Nursing and Immunofree Council, the Ghana Medical Association, the
00:23:56 Dental Council, institutes for the people to go through before they are given that
00:24:03 license to operate as professionals. So it is quite unfortunate that when it
00:24:10 comes to education and for that matter what we are discussing right now the
00:24:13 issue of teacher licensing we have to subject that alone to partisan politics
00:24:19 party A, party B says when I come out I'll do this and it keeps taking us back
00:24:24 and forth. We end up not making any progress. Look for me since the exams was
00:24:31 introduced in 2018 and at that time this exam was being introduced I was a
00:24:36 student leader by then. I played a very key role in this whole process and I've
00:24:41 heard Honorable Ntukhu talk about the fact that okay we should or they are
00:24:48 going to implement a portfolio system to see to the teachers. He says he says he
00:24:54 says this is a test this is a mere aptitude test which for example if you
00:24:59 are applying for a job somewhere or even it could be education you could go
00:25:03 through an aptitude test it is not a real test of pedagogy. How do you feel
00:25:07 about that because that's where you're going now? Yes so Ben if I have attended
00:25:12 College of Education for four years if I have gone to university for four years
00:25:17 I have passed my exams as stipulated in the Act, the Education Act which
00:25:23 clearly states that a student or a candidate can only search for the
00:25:27 licensed exams after he or she has successfully completed his course in any
00:25:34 teacher education institution. So if I've completed my training for four years
00:25:39 successfully and I'm coming to search for an aptitude test as described by
00:25:44 Honorable Ntukhu and excuse me to say I fill that paper it doesn't make me a
00:25:51 failure. There's probably something I didn't get from my training that I need
00:25:56 to go back to revisit and come back well prepared. So for me look there's
00:26:04 something we are actually doing right. If we are not doing these things right, the
00:26:09 earlier conversations we're having about the export of teachers to UK and other
00:26:15 places, these institutions or these countries wouldn't be rushing for our
00:26:20 teachers. The likes of Senegal, Gambia and other African countries, South Africa
00:26:27 was in Ghana here about few months ago to study our system, to learn from our
00:26:32 system. So if we have had advanced countries coming to Ghana to learn our
00:26:38 systems, to study our way of licensing our teachers and back here we are also
00:26:44 here kind of playing partisan politics with our system to know whether we
00:26:50 should cancel this or not. Then it means we are not making progress as a country
00:26:54 and I was on this particular topic just about a fortnight ago I didn't even
00:26:59 know this topic will come up this way but Ben I think I think the long and
00:27:03 short of it is both parties going into election 2024 should just consult
00:27:12 efforts in propounding areas on this particular area of Ghana teacher
00:27:16 license. I see interesting thoughts in there. Dr. Antti how do you feel about
00:27:23 this since 2018 we've gone down this road has it yielded the sort of results
00:27:27 we would have wanted as a country because per that quote by Friedrich you
00:27:33 know the whole bit is not about policy or intent it is about results. Have we
00:27:39 reaped the results that we wanted and what would be your critical assessment
00:27:44 of this exam in the context of what the former president is saying? Thank you
00:27:51 very much Ben. It's a sad conversation that we are having this morning
00:27:57 because for me I don't think that any individual whether a politician or a
00:28:05 minister should have this say in how people are admitted into a profession.
00:28:12 It's not it's never done anywhere that the people within the profession are now
00:28:20 being detected to as to how they allow people to enter the profession and that
00:28:25 is what that is the conversation that we are we are having and for me it is very
00:28:30 very unfortunate. The licensure exams are... But wait wait Dr. Antti... Who could not write their names in teaching my
00:28:36 children if we are talking about outcome it has helped in helping it has helped
00:28:43 in preventing people...
00:28:45 Dr. Antti go ahead I wanted to interject but I think you so you can go ahead.
00:28:57 Hello Dr. Antti. I think the connection to Dr. Antti may be a little complicated
00:29:08 right now there may be some issues with a connection to Dr. Peter Antti
00:29:11 executive director of IFEST. Dr. Antti can you hear me now? All right we'll try
00:29:20 to get Dr. Antti back but the point he was making was that there shouldn't be
00:29:24 that interference in something like this because like has been mentioned by
00:29:30 Larry Agbado it is the educational sector and if you go to the nurses the
00:29:35 lawyers the dentists those practicing medicine among others there are systems
00:29:42 in place and exams that must be passed before a qualified candidate is allowed
00:29:47 to practice so why not in the teaching profession which is crucial to all of
00:29:52 these other groupings that we have but the point he also makes is that there is
00:29:59 political interference I just wanted to find out from him I don't know whether
00:30:03 he's back now but I wanted to find out from Dr. Antti in all of this the
00:30:07 politicians always always come to bear they have an effect whether it's free
00:30:14 SHS whether it's three years or four years for SHS all of that the
00:30:18 politicians and policymakers still come in place so I don't know what he makes
00:30:23 of that. Dr. Antti please go ahead with your submissions. If nothing at all it
00:30:32 has helped in preventing someone who could not write his name or write a
00:30:34 simple essay about himself or herself from teaching my child in the basic
00:30:40 school okay it we are we are working through a process of course we have all
00:30:48 seen that there have been changes in the in the licensure examination it means
00:30:53 that it is evolving all right and the fact that there are few
00:30:57 challenges here and there does not mean that the process that have been put in
00:31:02 place by the body that have been mandated by law to admit people into the
00:31:09 profession should be contained simply because there is a constituency that we
00:31:16 think we can tap into and get votes from and the only language that they
00:31:21 understand is that they do not want to write their licensure exams and I'm
00:31:25 trying to tell you the reason why we are having this conversation the students in
00:31:28 the various colleges of education do not want to write the licensure exam. Why? Now
00:31:33 the politicians are seen because they think that it is a burden an extra
00:31:38 burden on them but you see the fact that you are going through College of
00:31:43 Education for four years does not automatically make you a teacher you see
00:31:48 that is that is a challenge some of us have had over the years that we think
00:31:52 that the teaching profession is just anything that you just walk in and then
00:31:56 you leave it and you leave the profession and that is it and that is
00:31:59 what all of us have felt when when we're growing up now there are steps to ensure
00:32:05 that anything that is called a profession the attributes are being felt
00:32:10 in the teaching profession those in the colleges of education do not want to
00:32:14 write the exam because they think that it is an extra burden to them. Their
00:32:19 counterparts in the other professions do write these exams they have also done
00:32:23 four years of training like president former president Mahama said they did
00:32:27 four years the nurses they do four years okay so it is not that this is something
00:32:33 that is peculiar to the teacher and that we are trying to find ways and means to
00:32:38 prevent people from becoming teachers no it is the regulatory body that
00:32:43 determines the mode of admitting people into the profession and in the
00:32:48 mind of the regulatory body and its relevant stakeholders in this case the
00:32:53 teaching teachers association and then the other relevant stakeholders they
00:33:00 think that the way that they can admit people into the profession because when
00:33:04 you go to College of Education after four years you need to admit them into
00:33:08 the profession and they are saying that we would admit you by allowing you to
00:33:13 sit for certain exams and when you sit for the exams and you pass you are
00:33:18 giving a provisional license to practice within a period of one year you undergo
00:33:23 some probation and then you build your portfolio something that the honorable
00:33:27 minister is talking about is being done so you build your portfolio after the
00:33:31 one year then you are given a permanent license what other thing does anybody
00:33:37 want the National Teaching Council to do? I will get to Mr. Peter Ntukoto
00:33:47 on that bit in terms of what exactly will go into this but he makes the point
00:33:53 I want you to react to this Dr. Antti he makes the point that this appears to be
00:33:57 a mere aptitude test you've talked about how over the years there have been some
00:34:02 changes but I've seen people question the methodology that the things that are
00:34:06 tested and whether they actually determine what level of knowledge what
00:34:11 level of capacity these teachers may have yes there may be the odd examples
00:34:16 of those who can't even spell their names or those who perform abysmally but
00:34:20 generally it's like this argument of okay so you you're going to read this
00:34:25 course at university you must have passed certain science related courses
00:34:29 and some would ask look I'm going into the humanities into social issues why do
00:34:36 I need that what so what do you make of that in terms of the real test is it a
00:34:40 real test of pedagogy for these teachers coming from the colleges of education
00:34:44 Dr. Antti? Yes so I wanted to round up so yes it is a real test of pedagogy you
00:34:51 write you write I think three papers you write a general paper you write general
00:34:58 paper now consists of the English and then the mathematics that they were
00:35:02 talking about that they think that some of them feel that they don't need it you
00:35:06 can't teach children when your simple and numeracy and literacy skills are not
00:35:12 up there you write a paper on pedagogy and then you write a paper on the subject
00:35:17 area that you are going to teach this is the transformation the Ghana teachers
00:35:21 licensure examination have gone through so you if I'm going to teach economics I
00:35:24 will write a paper on economics then I'm supposed to write a paper on pedagogy
00:35:29 then I'm supposed to also write a paper on my simple numeracy and literacy so
00:35:33 that I can demonstrate that I can speak good I can write good English and I can
00:35:38 just add one or two things when the need arises see Ben let me be frank with you
00:35:43 the reason why we are having this conversation is that the former
00:35:47 president have seen a constituency that is reluctant in in admitting that they
00:35:51 need to write the licensure exams we are entering into 2024 this is a big
00:35:56 constituency that can vote for him of course the same constituency did not
00:36:00 vote for him in 20 2016 because he there was there was a policy to try to swap
00:36:07 their system okay so now he's tapping to that consistency he's telling them what
00:36:13 they want to hear and that is what we are having now this has got nothing to
00:36:17 do with policies the one nothing to do with time to make the teaching
00:36:21 profession better it has got nothing to do with improving the scale of the
00:36:26 teacher in fact it has got nothing to do with anything teacher education it is
00:36:30 just about politics is just about votes and I'm surprised that the former
00:36:34 president is throwing this line those who are advising him in terms of their
00:36:38 teacher education policy are not doing the former president in the good so in
00:36:43 summary what you're saying is if you look at the 2016 election and some of
00:36:50 the promises that were made from the other side or teachers allowance nurses
00:36:54 allowance and all of that all that fed into a wave so this is just another form
00:36:59 of propaganda is that what you're saying this is yes this is another form of
00:37:05 saying what a constituency wants to hear so you see when he decided I look you
00:37:11 are you are you are tertiary students you don't need the allowance let me give
00:37:15 you the loans the other party said no no no no no no you need allowance and then
00:37:20 because at that time the constituency really wanted the allowance they bought
00:37:24 into that idea and they voted massively for for the other party now he's seen
00:37:29 that the constituencies complaining about the licensure exams they have been
00:37:32 complaining about this for a long time and then he is trying to tap into that
00:37:37 particular constituency to in telling them that look when I come I will scrap
00:37:40 these exams when you finish your training college and you write your
00:37:44 final paper the next thing is automatically you become a teacher what
00:37:47 profession are we trying to build and that is very wrong and I think that's
00:37:51 the former president and his advisors in education my big brother honorable
00:37:56 piton to my big brother honorable Clement apart and those other people
00:38:00 they should receive this particular approach that they are trying to yeah
00:38:06 they are trying to do because they will end up spoiling the profession that we
00:38:10 are trying to do we are teachers and we want the best weather profession they
00:38:14 are all right thank you for those submissions let me bring in not you go
00:38:23 to now how do you react to some of the criticism leveled against what the
00:38:29 former president has said and and you spoke about pedagogy rather than an
00:38:34 aptitude test but he would also bear witness that like has been mentioned if
00:38:38 you're going to teach chemistry for example you will have something along
00:38:41 those lines then you'll have the general paper and you would have to show some
00:38:44 numeracy skills which I find to be the problem for most people but I do agree
00:38:48 that some numeracy skills are required even in my profession with what I am
00:38:53 doing here you require some numeracy skills to be able to dilate on some of
00:38:58 the conversations on economics and all of that without which it would be pretty
00:39:02 you know difficult what is your reaction to that and if you are going to tweak
00:39:07 this licensure exam are you considering the impact on teaching and learning is
00:39:14 it not going to be at the service the Ghanaians mr. not you go to that was for
00:39:19 you yeah if anybody sounded more political this morning if my brother
00:39:24 adopted that I'm why do you say he sounds political yeah he said that the
00:39:31 president my hammer is using this because of a vote so why when we are
00:39:39 feel such that the most of life and since he says now it's not the best we
00:39:47 think there is a better alternative which we can introduce why is he saying
00:39:51 so now if you look at what president Mahama said I don't know why people
00:39:57 don't listen to him very carefully when he talked about the review of the free
00:40:02 education it was meant to be a cancellation in this case now he said
00:40:07 he's going to cancel the licensure examination he's not saying he's going
00:40:12 to cancel the licensure of teachers that is not what he's saying and his point is
00:40:18 that the method we are going to use is that it is going to be part of the
00:40:24 curriculum you take it as credit courses so that you be made it will make part of
00:40:31 your life if you are teaching or you're going to teach geography your knowledge
00:40:36 of that subject might be very broad this is what he's saying if you are going to
00:40:42 handle basic education what are the things that you needed to be taken
00:40:46 through in the four years but by the time you get out of college you are well
00:40:52 acute then also what professional ethics do you need to acquire so that when you
00:40:58 get into the classroom as a professional teacher anyone who visits your classroom
00:41:04 who visits your school knows that yes this is a whole made teacher so I don't
00:41:10 see why people should say that it is a political propaganda when we realize
00:41:16 that what we are doing now is not good and we can change it for the better so
00:41:22 we are not joking with education we are not politicizing education in any way
00:41:28 all other areas are we saying that the politicians don't have a say where you
00:41:34 not in this country when some students who applied or candidate who sat for the
00:41:41 law school examination were declared failed the Parliament not candidate
00:41:47 politicians not coming and those people were caught out many of them were caught
00:41:51 to the bar the over 400 that's what you're referring to yes so in everything
00:41:56 that we do what government is in power there's politics in it and every
00:42:02 political party wants the best for his citizens so that is what president
00:42:07 mahamma feels that no we adopt a different method of licensing teachers
00:42:16 not the three hour or four hour paper okay we are saying that you have a
00:42:21 thorough training in that subject you will examine it while you are in school
00:42:26 so that by the time you finish your college of education you are a whole
00:42:30 20 now currently some teachers who completed 2022 are still at home they
00:42:37 are yet to be licensed they are yet to be employed then when our classrooms are
00:42:42 empty the classrooms are empty and teachers are leaving the classroom either
00:42:47 through resignation or retirement what are we doing about that so for me we
00:42:56 cannot change the teachers keep them for one year before we pose them to the
00:43:01 various who's where they are most needed to deliver on education in any case
00:43:06 teachers have taught our children over the years was it because they were not
00:43:12 licensed that they were not secure but our children passed examination so when
00:43:17 we are facing things we need to be very careful about it because teachers once
00:43:21 they are trained they are not only trained for classroom they are trained
00:43:27 for life let me just you know bring back a few points you've made and clarify are
00:43:34 you saying point one that you're not going to scrap the licensure process
00:43:39 you've already mentioned that you're not taking away that you're not going to
00:43:42 scrap the licensure process but you would change the licensure examination
00:43:47 that is point one the structure of it then you also talk about focus from the
00:43:53 colleges of education so in other words what what I understand is that you are
00:43:57 saying right from the colleges of education there will be some
00:44:01 specificity focus so that if you think you're going into chemistry if you think
00:44:06 you're going into geography there's enough done to broaden your knowledge
00:44:11 from from that aspect is is that what you're saying that is what the president
00:44:16 is saying that as part of the training for you to come out of the College of
00:44:22 Education after four years the pedagogy that you are going for you must excel in
00:44:28 it so there must be effort to make sure that you are good in that and you but is
00:44:33 that is that not already being done to some degree in the colleges of education
00:44:38 yes but the emphasis we are saying is that you are going to handle subjects or
00:44:43 you're going to do basic education primary education or secondary education
00:44:48 or whatever the emphasis we are laying on it is that we want you to be
00:44:53 pedagogically equipped in that particular area so that when you come
00:44:59 out and you have done very well you are past all your faculty examination then
00:45:05 you'll be awarded the license to go and teach that is all we are about not that
00:45:11 you go and write a three-hour paper and as part of that you know you must
00:45:16 classroom management assessment of students all these are things that the
00:45:21 teacher must be taking through wise in college so you pass your academic paper
00:45:28 then you do your professional examination also as well so that when
00:45:33 you come out the numeracy the literacy the subject content we feel that you are
00:45:39 okay so this is the pathway we want to take so nobody should misunderstand
00:45:43 president Bahama that he's coming to cancel life Asia no he's changing the
00:45:49 modality that is what is important for everybody to understand okay so Larry it
00:45:53 is the modalities that are changing you've already expressed your thoughts
00:45:57 but there are some other questions that are you know arising that I want to run
00:46:01 by both you and Peter for example this one a message coming through darkly
00:46:06 money on the life he says good morning to you or please ask dr. ante that all
00:46:11 those working groups he made mention of what is their past mark their past mark
00:46:16 is 50% at least I can vouch for that for the entrance exam into law school 50% or
00:46:23 at least what by and large because there have been some stream streamlining way
00:46:28 in sections a and B or parts a and B you must secure about at least 25% but it's
00:46:33 50% and he says for teachers alone 70% why that is something they are not
00:46:39 telling you we also have a bunga sayuba Rashid who says please talk about the
00:46:46 70% licensure pass mark the GTLE pass mark was 50% and now it's 70% talk about
00:46:52 it it's not fair what do you make of that we all agree that there should be
00:46:57 some sort of filtering through but is this fair what is your take Larry and
00:47:05 so before I respond to the past mark issue let me just spend a minute to
00:47:09 clarify something I had a little talk about the subjects base and all
00:47:17 that but you see the reforms that have taken place over the years in our
00:47:21 education system are already addressing the things that honorable not true has
00:47:25 mentioned when you go to our colleges of education today everyone is going
00:47:32 through training based on their area of study so the things he mentioned a
00:47:37 bachelor of education in junior high or secondary or primary that is already
00:47:42 happening and I had him also mentioned that's a certain for a three-hour paper
00:47:46 just to get a license before you're posted the papers are not even up to
00:47:50 three hours the maximum time for he did mention he did mention two to three
00:47:55 hours that's what he said he did it's got the maximum duration for a paper is
00:48:01 one hour 30 minutes and this this are not exams that excuse me after going
00:48:07 through training for four years you have so much difficulty in writing now back
00:48:13 to the issue of the past mark yes you cited an example of the law school where
00:48:18 it's 50% past mark I think the past mark issue is currently what is even
00:48:24 delaying the exams that was written in September you know there were proposals
00:48:30 that he wanted to raise the past mark to 70% but the leadership of the students
00:48:34 also made an appeal to government through the Minister for education that
00:48:38 they wanted to reverse back to the 50% I think the minister has heard some
00:48:44 consultations with all parties involved and they are currently considering this
00:48:50 I don't want to be the one to spill the beans out but I think where the
00:48:55 discussions are leading to is likely to reverse back to the 50% we have to wait
00:49:00 for probably a while to hear the final confirmation from the minister or any
00:49:05 other relevant agency that has to inform us about that but in a whole the example
00:49:12 on our not you cited about the fact that some few years ago the law students
00:49:15 would feel about the 400 who feel I'm not sure that led to the discussion
00:49:23 that issues crap the entrance exams to the law school and but you see sometimes
00:49:30 but they have been serious just because you're going down that road
00:49:34 there have been they have been serious concerns about the entire process of
00:49:39 listen even in the legal space if people go through certain institutions you know
00:49:45 guaranteed certified by the the systems the powers that be in terms of dispensing
00:49:52 legal education I mean back in the day when we produce the same lawyers today
00:49:58 the the older ones that we see that the stock who think they are the best in the
00:50:04 system and maybe rightly so they didn't have to go through those you went through
00:50:09 the University of Ghana and directly you went into law school didn't water down
00:50:13 the quality of those lawyers so that is a different road to go down because it's
00:50:17 a it's an entirely convoluted conversation that's very true Larry I
00:50:27 can hear you go ahead
00:50:32 hello Larry it's unfortunate we have a network issue I'll come back to Larry
00:50:39 but let me go to dr. ante on on the same point the past mark among others they
00:50:45 feel this is getting up to their eyebrows how do you feel about it 70% yes
00:50:53 I I I think I I was informed about this some months ago you see we should not
00:50:59 we should not miss the argument if it is about a pass back we can have an
00:51:03 argument about it if it is about recruiting people after they have been
00:51:08 licensed we can talk about that the points today we are talking about is
00:51:13 that the former president is saying that the examination that have been
00:51:17 introduced by the regulatory body that is mandated to admit people into the
00:51:22 profession is something that is a nuisance and should be scrapped and that
00:51:27 is the point that we are making so those people asking questions about past mark
00:51:31 and they people after having their lines it's not being employed these are things
00:51:34 we can talk about okay but the point that we are now discussing is that the
00:51:41 former president is saying that that examination that is now being used to
00:51:46 admit people into the profession you go and you are trained to become a teacher
00:51:51 there is a regulatory body mandated to admit you into the profession just like
00:51:56 all other professions that we have and that regulatory body is saying that see
00:52:00 you have been trained in pedagogy you have been trained in your subject area
00:52:05 you have normal and normal numeracy and literacy skill come before I admit you
00:52:11 into the profession prove to me that you can do these things that are dancing and
00:52:17 has been explained as has been explained by your fellow Peter same name he says
00:52:24 we're not scrapping the licensure process but basically no licensure exam
00:52:30 exam in its current form that's what he's I just wanted to reiterate what he
00:52:36 had said I'm also making they want to scrap the exams and that is what I'm
00:52:41 talking about and I'm saying that the licensure process is something that is
00:52:46 in the remit of the regulatory body which is NTC and they have I agreed with
00:52:53 the stakeholders that before we admit people into the profession so maybe you
00:52:57 have to take your time listen to me this is the process you go for you go for
00:53:02 teacher education or teacher training education for four years it could be in
00:53:07 the university it could be in the colleges of education after you've done
00:53:11 the four years you are not automatically a teacher and this should be made clear
00:53:14 you need to be admitted into the profession by the National Teaching
00:53:18 Council the National Teaching Council says that as part of our lens in our
00:53:22 ancestral process as part of the process that we will admit into the profession
00:53:27 give you license to practice in Ghana you have done four years economics you
00:53:31 have done four years pedagogy you have done four years some a little bit of
00:53:36 numeracy and then some a little bit of literacy proof to us that through this
00:53:41 simple exam that you are really invite all these things for the past four years
00:53:45 so you come and sit for the exams and based on that the license you and then
00:53:51 you are admitted into the profession what is so wrong about this what is
00:53:57 wrong about this that anybody would find it difficult to to to allow it to happen
00:54:03 because that is what is done in all other professions you are getting to the
00:54:06 profession point the the NTC is saying that we want to use the examination to
00:54:13 test your knowledge because they did not train you we should understand that it
00:54:16 is not the entry NTC that is training you the NTC is mandated to license you
00:54:22 and admit you into the profession and they cannot do that on a on a on a on a
00:54:27 on a open blanket pace they want to put in measures to ensure that they are
00:54:34 admitting people who really possess the pedagogy okay so your point I think I
00:54:39 think your point has been made and it's reiterated I just wanted your quick take
00:54:42 because people were talking about it as well do you feel the 70% pass mark in
00:54:46 is too high and very quickly on this because we're having the conversation is
00:54:52 it too high it's outrageous I don't know I don't because it was 50% I don't know
00:54:57 why they decided to increase it to 70% it doesn't make sense because it's a
00:55:01 professional is a professional is answer you have to get 50% and that is it and
00:55:05 that is what all professional and what is used 50% pass marks so the 50% is so
00:55:12 outrageous it doesn't make sense and I think that earlier that they reverse it
00:55:16 the better it will be for all of us okay and and lastly let me make this point
00:55:20 let me make this point okay so so are you delivering your final your final
00:55:24 remarks so that I don't come back to you is are these your final remarks all
00:55:27 right that is fine okay all right that is fine the honourable MP said that I am
00:55:31 sounding political no I am passionate about the teaching profession I have
00:55:35 small kids that are going through the educational system I might not have the
00:55:39 money to take them to the best schools but I want at least a qualified teacher
00:55:42 who can write and read and do simple math is to teach them I do not want
00:55:48 anybody just because they have left the clinical age to now have the opportunity
00:55:53 to them they need to be licensed and before they can license they can be
00:55:57 licensed they need to sit for this simple exams and pass and that is why
00:56:00 I'm passionate it is not about politics it is then that want to take political
00:56:04 advantage of something that a group of people feel it's not needed and that is
00:56:09 what they are doing but right me I am just pushing a policy that will help the
00:56:13 future generation and also protect the teaching profession the profession that
00:56:18 we all okay we're going to have to sew it up thank you very much
00:56:22 modesty or a Figo says what I have noticed is that where I did my national
00:56:26 service in once in your high school they lacked teachers meanwhile some people
00:56:30 have acquired this license and are staying at home without being posted and
00:56:33 they are to renew the license within two or three years where do they find money
00:56:37 to renew it we are not against the licensure but we shouldn't stay in the
00:56:41 house while we have acquired the license that's another aspect of the
00:56:45 conversation maybe some other time we'll be looking at that Larry what are your
00:56:49 final remarks in some 30 seconds all right thank you very much so my appeal
00:56:55 to our revered former president is that if he really wants to come back this
00:57:02 aspects of our educational life he should have a second thoughts on it
00:57:07 scrapping the or canceling the teacher license exams I'm not sure is the best
00:57:15 way for us now going to the future we are certainly doing something right that
00:57:20 is why a country like UK will accept teachers from Ghana without even
00:57:26 allowing them to write any exams again and we must get this clear the numerous
00:57:32 teachers that run into UK to accept teaching opportunities if this
00:57:37 licensure is out of my in place if they get to UK they will have written a
00:57:41 different exams on his own again but with the measures we have kept in place
00:57:46 here this gatekeeping measures that we have kept in place here are you sure are
00:57:49 you sure these people are not taking other examinations because I know for
00:57:52 example for the medical doctors for nurses and all of that there are
00:57:56 processes they go through barring whatever qualifications they have here
00:57:59 they still go through those processes to qualify to
00:58:04 I can confirm to you that even though officials from UK themselves travel to
00:58:09 Ghana here to come and study our system this system that the National Teaching
00:58:14 Council is operating and they were so impressed with what we are doing that
00:58:17 they now have to give that approval or that's open the opportunity for
00:58:23 teachers from Ghana and I think the whole Africa is just Ghana and then
00:58:27 there's another country that have been given that kind of special arrangement
00:58:35 so there's something we are certainly doing right that we must rather work on
00:58:41 improving on and not trying to play politics around it I'll play with the
00:58:46 former president there are certain things that when he brings up to date
00:58:49 some of us will support him on subjects like the cancellation of the teacher
00:58:53 trainee salam and that one will be in for it but issues of the licensure examinations
00:58:58 we plead with him to have a second thought on it please thank you Larry
00:59:01 thank you so much for the wealth of knowledge you've brought to this
00:59:04 conversation mr. Ntukoto you have the final word your final thoughts hello
00:59:13 mr. Ntukoto yes I'm on the line please go ahead sir final thoughts yeah thank
00:59:19 you our education in the country now is in a mess a mess because things are not
00:59:28 going on well and we need to rescue education in this country so president
00:59:34 Mohammed's promise of a cancellation examination is just one of the reforms
00:59:40 that he's going to undertake so for us we will support president Mohammed to
00:59:48 make sure that we streamline the licensure process in the country so that
00:59:54 we don't unduly prevent people from picking up the profession we should make
01:00:02 it affordable we should make it more friendly so that students can relax and
01:00:11 over the four years they'll prepare themselves very well and come as very
01:00:15 good teachers so we will support the agenda and any other thing that
01:00:21 president Mohammed suggests will promote quality education in the country
01:00:26 that Asia is just one of them but mr. Ntukoto you say that you'll support this
01:00:32 and any other thing that the former president will suggest but you know that
01:00:35 it's a contest of ideas and that sometimes you will get it wrong
01:00:39 sometimes it's possible to get it wrong you do admit that right if you go back
01:00:48 to our - for 2020 it was there in black and white but that's what we're going to
01:00:55 do so we'll bring it back in the manifesto so it is now left for the
01:01:00 students who are in the colleges of education and other universities that
01:01:05 are teaching or training teachers to decide whether this is good for them or
01:01:12 not good for them but some of us feel that it is the way forward thank you
01:01:17 very much right before we cap off the entire conversation and thank you very
01:01:22 much to all of those who joined Larry Peter and dr. auntie I'll acknowledge
01:01:27 you at the tail end at the very end of the discussion but we also have we just
01:01:32 had to sneak in this bit to bring some you know other perspectives of the
01:01:36 conversation Jeff that none of none of Kwame SFR is president teacher trainees
01:01:40 Association of Ghana we haven't heard from them how do the teacher trainees
01:01:44 feel about the comments of the former president Jeff that good morning good
01:01:49 morning sir so we're trying to summarize this conversation I don't know whether
01:01:54 you followed we've had Larry we've had Peter we've had dr. auntie joined the
01:01:58 conversation but what came to mind how have you reacted to the former
01:02:02 president's positioning that we're going to scrap the teacher licensure exam now
01:02:07 we've just heard from the ranking member on Parliament's Education Committee who
01:02:10 clarifies that licensure yes there will be licensure but the mode of licensure
01:02:16 the exam is not fit for purpose what's your position on this all right thank
01:02:22 you very much and then what we are teacher trainees have to say about this
01:02:27 is that even before this announcement from the former president
01:02:32 what we have been advocating for is that we believe that it aligns with in yet is
01:02:37 good but the mode which we are quite a lot of what we are also talking about
01:02:42 that they could be some revisions because even about a 15th and the nation
01:02:46 we probably might have gone through seasons because I'm missing from the
01:02:49 political education pattern from first year to fourth year and after the
01:02:53 second alliance of them the competency based exam that is to show that it can
01:02:58 be able to demonstrate competence and qualities of a good teacher before you
01:03:02 are seen as allowed to mount a platform in the classroom to do teaching and so
01:03:07 even if we have done a lot we have done a lot in the case of education probably
01:03:11 there could be other ways in which we could use to assess our competency
01:03:16 before they give us the license and not necessarily potential other exam
01:03:20 with me again that is what we are looking at so you say that could be
01:03:23 other ways of testing your your competence and all of that so you've
01:03:27 clarified that you think yes licensure yes which is what the the former
01:03:32 president is also saying but the mode of it by you say there could be other ways
01:03:36 of of testing your capacity which are the ways are you speaking of okay so
01:03:42 since we see a practical course this is all about it's a practical aspect of all
01:03:50 things we are talking about and so even at the completion of our political education we go to our
01:03:55 political education to do teaching practice that is our internship and
01:04:00 that's one could be used to test our competence because we go there to
01:04:04 climax all our learning that was to stay with the teaching profession and what the teacher
01:04:09 should do and we believe that that one alone could be used to test our
01:04:13 competencies and even doing that service is too critical what the exams is meant
01:04:18 to be that before you are able to pass the exam before you are able to enter business school and do teaching
01:04:23 you should be able to provide a license before but it's a question we ask ourselves
01:04:27 during that time period once you practice teaching currently the first course of the
01:04:31 year program are on the subject of practicing teaching but we are yet to
01:04:36 attain the result of the licenses and whether or not they have passed that is to give them
01:04:41 the access to teaching but they are already practicing teaching so if there is some danger that they could prove
01:04:46 or probably some of them that might not be able to pass the examination are not fit for purpose
01:04:50 are not fit for the teaching job they are already practicing so we could even use various
01:04:54 with our said that the internship that we do in the business school or even doing
01:04:59 the service things could be deployed by the regulatory body for them to do an
01:05:02 assessment after that I really do want to put it apart as teachers so they can
01:05:07 give us their licenses and not necessarily be able to search for examination again.
01:05:13 So for you what then would be your take on what the former president said are you for it or against it?
01:05:20 So what we were even seeing before former president Mahama was advocating for
01:05:26 a reconciliation of the load of assessment but for the exams we believe that if you
01:05:31 hold all the licenses teachers should be given licenses but the load of assessment
01:05:35 we side with those teachers that spoke to the former president Mahama said that you should
01:05:41 review the process that you do for the licenses.
01:05:46 Well thank you very much Jephtha for sharing your thoughts I just see this message coming through
01:05:51 Kanpi Jibril says they will not agree to cancel the exams because they are making good money out of it
01:05:58 from us every candidate paid 500 CDs and they make millions of CDs from the poor.
01:06:04 Peter is saying the NTC does not train that's okay but who also trained the NTC
01:06:09 officials is the same universities it's unfortunate. Well this conversation could
01:06:13 go on and on but taking away any political lenses I feel we should do
01:06:17 what is best for our country and for our education because guess what without
01:06:21 education without proper education it's going to be pretty problematic for us so
01:06:27 those who joined the conversation Larry Keagbado editor teacher education
01:06:31 journal Peter Notshu, Quota Ranking Member Parliament's Education Committee as
01:06:35 well as Dr. Peter Antti, Executive Director Institute for Education and
01:06:39 Studies together with Jephtha Nanakwame Sefa, President Teacher Trainees
01:06:43 Association of Ghana. Now coming up next on the AM show today Joy News and an
01:06:50 amalgam of professional bodies present a public speaking event on a common
01:06:56 manifesto for our common future. We'll be speaking to Dr. Mr. Yaw and Sakwa I beg
01:07:03 your pardon and we'll be hearing from what exactly the plan is for this
01:07:08 dialogue what it seeks to achieve and what we can expect in the coming days
01:07:12 that conversation up next on the AM show do stay.
01:07:17 [Music]