Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Rob Bailey, joined by Conservative MP for Chatham and Aylesford Tracey Crouch and Cllr Alex Paterson from Medway Labour.
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00:02 - Welcome to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV.
00:22 I'm Rob Bailey.
00:23 Hundreds of protesters blockaded the BAE Systems factory
00:27 near Rochester Airport this morning
00:28 in opposition to the war in Gaza.
00:31 It came amid a fierce political debate
00:33 over the right to protest for peace in Palestine.
00:36 Marches are due to coincide with Armistice Day
00:39 and Remembrance Sunday this weekend.
00:41 A debate over whether the marches should be banned
00:43 has divided the government and could yet lead
00:45 to the sacking of Home Secretary Suella Braverman.
00:48 Let's hear from two of today's protesters.
00:50 - We're out here today to try and disrupt
00:55 the Israeli war machine.
00:56 So the parts made here go to be made
01:01 and put into fighter jets,
01:03 which are being used currently on the people in Gaza.
01:07 So there's been a call from Palestinian trade unionists
01:10 or trade unionists around the world,
01:12 workers around the world to disrupt the war machine,
01:15 which is being used in this genocidal bombardment
01:17 at the moment.
01:18 So we've come down with our fellow workers
01:20 to throw a wrench in the war machine.
01:24 Here with me tonight is the Conservative MP
01:26 for Chatham and Aylesford, Tracey Crouch,
01:28 and Councillor Alex Patterson of Medway Labour.
01:30 Welcome, thank you for joining us.
01:32 I should say before we start that the genocide claim
01:35 by the protesters made in that video
01:36 would be highly contested,
01:38 and that BAE have given us a statement
01:40 which says that we're horrified by the situation
01:42 in Israel and Gaza.
01:43 They said they respect everyone's rights
01:45 to protest peacefully,
01:46 and that they operate under tight regulation
01:48 and comply with rules
01:50 when they're selling defence technology.
01:53 With that said, Tracey, it's going to be a testing weekend
01:55 this week, isn't it?
01:57 I think it's going to be a tense weekend.
01:59 I would have preferred that there weren't protests
02:04 this weekend.
02:05 It's a very important weekend to many people,
02:07 very sensitive weekend,
02:09 as we remember those who have died in conflict.
02:14 But that said, I will defend the right to protest
02:18 for as long as I am on this planet.
02:20 And I think that, you know,
02:21 peaceful protest is an extremely important part
02:24 of who we are in this country.
02:26 Say, my preference would have been
02:28 that it wasn't this weekend,
02:30 but it is, and I certainly wouldn't have suggested a ban.
02:33 You're a councillor in the Rochester Ward.
02:35 Alex, this was on your doorstep today.
02:37 I mean, if that protest were to continue over the weekend,
02:40 would you have concerns about that?
02:42 Well, I'm with Tracey on this one.
02:44 I think the right to protest is something
02:46 that I would defend,
02:47 even if I disagree with the subject matter of the protest.
02:52 It's not what I'll be doing this weekend.
02:53 I'm the Armed Forces Champion for Medway Council.
02:56 I was at a remembrance service this morning at the cathedral.
02:59 I'll be back again on Sunday.
03:02 And that's my priority this weekend,
03:03 as I think will be the vast majority of people in Medway.
03:06 So, obviously, we've got agreement here on the sofa,
03:11 but this has become quite a politically challenging issue
03:14 this week.
03:15 We've had, particularly, Soheila Braverman
03:18 drawing a lot of attention for an article
03:20 that she wrote for The Telegraph,
03:21 in which she suggested that the police had a certain bias
03:24 in the way that they approached different types of protest,
03:27 and calling, of course, for this to be banned.
03:30 Tracey, would you expect her...
03:33 Is this a breach of the ministerial code, I suppose,
03:34 is the first question,
03:35 and would you expect her to keep her job?
03:37 Well, that's something that is being looked at,
03:39 so I'm not going to prejudge the outcome
03:42 of what is happening in Westminster and Whitehall
03:44 at this very particular moment.
03:46 I certainly wouldn't have used that language,
03:48 and I do actually really fundamentally believe
03:51 in the independence of the police.
03:55 And even the previous Home Secretary has been talking
03:58 at the COVID inquiry about political impartiality
04:01 and independence of our police.
04:03 They seem to be very carefully chosen words
04:05 from Priti Patel, didn't they?
04:06 On the day when this was blowing up,
04:07 she said that she had always stressed during COVID
04:10 that the police were operationally independent.
04:12 It felt like that was a bit of a dig.
04:14 I think the police have to be operationally independent,
04:17 because actually Home Secretaries change,
04:19 governments change, it is very important
04:20 that they are there, and they have the tools
04:22 to be able to do their jobs.
04:24 Now, what I think many of my constituents want to see
04:26 is that if there is at any point over the protests
04:29 over the weekend, any kind of inflammatory,
04:33 hateful, illegal language and activity
04:36 that it is dealt with by the police.
04:38 And I think some of the concerns that residents
04:41 who have been getting in touch with me have had
04:44 is that the police aren't doing their job
04:46 in terms of stamping out some of this activity.
04:50 Now, I'm very much of the view that the police
04:52 have the tools and the capacity to be able to do that.
04:55 These protests should go ahead,
04:57 as I say, albeit in the caveat that I would rather
05:01 they weren't over this particular weekend,
05:03 but the police have to then stamp out
05:05 any individual activity that is inappropriate or illegal.
05:10 Do you have any concerns about the way
05:12 the government's been talking about this this week?
05:14 - Well, I think that the main concern
05:15 is this inflammatory language that's been used
05:20 by the Home Secretary in what is already
05:23 a very tense situation.
05:24 What you need is a Home Secretary
05:26 who has the back of the police,
05:29 who have to deal with these situations,
05:31 who is speaking up for the law-abiding general public
05:34 and doing no harm.
05:36 And I think that if she looks herself in the mirror,
05:38 she would have to say that she has poured fuel on the fire
05:42 rather than calming a situation
05:44 that's already quite volatile.
05:46 - Of course, Srele Braverman's been quite
05:48 an important political figure for Kent
05:50 in her time as Home Secretary,
05:51 because we've had the small boats issue,
05:54 the migrant issue, which has directly affected us here.
05:56 And of course, she's faced this kind of criticism before.
05:59 I mean, she talked about a swarm coming onto the coast.
06:02 She talked about an invasion.
06:04 She was challenged by a Holocaust survivor
06:06 in her own constituency and told that
06:08 that language was inflammatory
06:09 and refused to apologise for it.
06:11 Do you think that Rishi Sunak
06:14 should have seen this problem perhaps coming
06:16 and should have maybe taken action before now?
06:20 - I think it's incumbent on all of us,
06:22 whatever level of politics that we are in,
06:24 that we always have to be very careful about our language.
06:26 And I think inflammatory language
06:29 is not helpful in any circumstances.
06:32 You know, it may play to a particular section of society
06:37 or even in this case,
06:39 in a particular section of my own political party.
06:42 But actually, we have a responsibility
06:46 to look after our communities as a whole.
06:49 And therefore, we have to be very careful with that.
06:53 I'm of a generation of politicians.
06:56 I got elected in 2010.
06:57 I've seen colleagues that have been murdered
06:59 or violently attacked.
07:04 And therefore, I certainly have a deep understanding
07:09 of the language that I use.
07:11 I don't always get it right.
07:13 I completely understand that.
07:14 We're human, we make mistakes,
07:15 sometimes in the glare of the media
07:18 where you're under pressure to say things
07:20 and answer things in certain ways.
07:22 But nonetheless, you always have to be really conscious
07:25 of what you say can have consequences.
07:27 - And this is, Labour aren't immune from this, are they?
07:29 Keir Starmer has faced his own problems on this issue.
07:32 There have been resignations from the front bench.
07:34 There have been resignations
07:35 from local councils across the country.
07:36 Do you have any reservations about Labour's stance?
07:39 - I think anyone of good conscience
07:41 wants the atrocities taking place
07:44 in the Middle East right now
07:46 to stop as quickly as practically possible.
07:49 So I am pretty clear on that,
07:53 and I'm comfortable that that is something
07:55 that insofar as can be advocated for
07:58 from a distance, from a local authority in Medway,
08:01 that's something that me and my colleagues
08:03 have been very clear about our position.
08:06 But we've seen the limits of even the powers
08:09 of the commander in chief, the leader of the free world
08:13 in terms of his sphere of influence
08:15 and his ability to make a difference.
08:17 So I think we need to be realistic
08:19 about what can be achieved on that.
08:22 But just going back to the Soheila Braverman point,
08:25 that wasn't said in the heat of the moment.
08:27 That was in cold blood.
08:29 And actually, if you want to look at where blame lies,
08:33 it's a year ago when Rishi Sunak reappointed her
08:36 as Home Secretary, six days after she resigned in disgrace.
08:40 He had the opportunity to put a full stop
08:42 to Soheila Braverman's front bench career
08:45 right then when it was clear that she was unsuited
08:48 to high office.
08:49 We're a year down the line
08:50 and now in a much more dangerous situation,
08:52 and she's the wrong person in the wrong job.
08:55 And we've seen this week with the COVID inquiry
08:57 how important it is to have the right people
08:59 in the right jobs at the right time.
09:01 There'll be people out there watching this though
09:02 that would think that if there is some tension
09:05 over the weekend that Soheila Braverman
09:06 was simply calling it right
09:09 and that she should have been listened to.
09:11 But in a sense, I have a real problem
09:15 with these supposed libertarians who have limits
09:18 on their belief in the expression of free speech.
09:21 Just as with the protest today at BAE Systems
09:24 where as far as I understand there have been no arrests.
09:28 That's a peaceful protest and you might not like it
09:31 and it might not be something you want to participate yourself.
09:34 But if the Armistice Day commemorations
09:38 which we are all marking this weekend
09:40 have any meaning and any significance in history,
09:42 it's that they are to preserve the freedom
09:45 to peacefully protest on any issue that you see fit.
09:49 Of course, you said a couple of times
09:50 you would prefer it not to be this weekend,
09:53 but some might say what better weekend
09:55 to be protesting for peace?
09:57 Well, some might say that,
09:58 but I do think that you have a lot of people,
10:01 a lot of veterans going into London.
10:03 We've seen news reports saying that poppy sellers
10:07 are not out in force on the streets
10:09 because they're concerned about their safety and welfare.
10:13 And there's always a small minority of people
10:15 that do actually cause upset and harm
10:20 and we're seeing a consequence of that.
10:23 The Royal British Legion have,
10:24 and obviously who are very much stationed
10:26 in your constituency, have said today
10:28 that they wouldn't want to see these protests banned.
10:30 Yeah, and I think it's important.
10:32 I mean, only a small minority of people
10:35 are saying that the protests should be banned
10:36 because I think people understand
10:38 that there would be a consequence to that.
10:40 It's also very difficult and puts the police
10:43 in a very difficult position if all of a sudden
10:46 all the people that were gonna have a peaceful protest
10:49 that has now been banned turn up and do it anyway.
10:52 But I do think that we're trying to navigate
10:57 through an exceptionally sensitive issue,
11:01 which Alex is quite right to point out,
11:03 is actually beyond the control of any of us,
11:07 to be perfectly honest with you,
11:09 but people still have very strong views.
11:11 There's very little nuance in this issue
11:14 and people want to be able to stand up and have their view.
11:19 What I will say is I do have lots of people
11:21 who are feeling very isolated and threatened
11:24 of being on the opposite side of that view.
11:26 We need to break there for some adverts.
11:28 When we come back, we'll discuss a record month
11:30 for Gillingham Street Angels
11:31 and what did the King's Speech have in it for Kent?
11:34 Stay with us.
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14:50 - Welcome back to the Ken Politics Show live on KMTV.
15:00 Next tonight, did the King's Speech
15:02 get the final session of this parliament
15:03 off to a stuttering start?
15:05 Highlights included plans for a new football regulator,
15:08 confirmation of a phased smoking ban,
15:10 and tougher sentences for the most serious crimes.
15:13 But there was no room for Suella Braverman's pitch
15:15 to ban charities from giving tents to homeless people.
15:18 It comes after Gillingham Street Angels helped 21,500 people
15:23 in their food bank and soup kitchens last month.
15:26 Here's what the charity had to say.
15:28 - When we first started doing the soup kitchens
15:30 back five years ago, we were probably doing 40, 50 people
15:33 a night when we were doing the soup kitchens.
15:34 Last month, it was 21,000 people came through
15:37 the food bank and the soup kitchen,
15:38 and there's other stuff we do that we don't recall.
15:40 So the numbers are just getting out of hand, really.
15:42 This year, it's gonna be a million pounds
15:44 to operate this charity.
15:45 So it's a big task, but I'm lucky.
15:47 We've got a very good team of people
15:49 who get the job done and make it possible to do it.
15:52 - Still with me is Medway Labour's Alex Patterson
15:56 and the Conservative MP for Chatham and Ellsford,
15:58 Tracey Crouch.
15:59 Welcome back.
16:00 Alex, obviously, you're Medway Council.
16:03 I know that's Gillingham Street Angels,
16:04 but the issues there are kind of pan-Medway, aren't they?
16:07 Are you concerned about how reliant people
16:09 are becoming on the food bank?
16:10 - Well, I mean, it's certainly been the major growth industry
16:14 under this government.
16:15 I'm afraid that the fact remains that 13 years ago,
16:18 there were a handful of food banks,
16:20 and now we have thousands across the country.
16:24 And that's a terrible indictment
16:27 of the way these issues have been tackled,
16:29 because there's no point simply looking at the crisis
16:33 once someone is sleeping rough.
16:35 There's so many opportunities to intervene
16:38 before that point, whether it's through mental health care,
16:42 whether it's getting rid of no-fault evictions,
16:45 whether it's tackling rogue landlords.
16:48 You know, there are so many things
16:49 that need to be looked at before we get to that crisis stage.
16:53 And I have the utmost respect for Gillingham Street Angels,
16:57 who do a lot of work, not just in Gillingham,
16:59 but in my Rochester ward as well.
17:01 They're fantastic people, and I wish
17:04 they didn't have to do that job.
17:05 But thank goodness they are there to do it.
17:07 - Some of the issues Alex has mentioned there
17:08 were in the King's Speech, of course,
17:10 I mean, particularly looking at issues
17:12 around renters and leaseholds.
17:15 But the mental health bill didn't arrive this year,
17:18 and now won't arrive.
17:19 And of course, people might question
17:22 whether there was enough in the King's Speech
17:24 to address directly the way the cost of living people
17:26 is still affecting them.
17:27 - I mean, the first thing to say is Gillingham Street Angels
17:29 are amazing, as are the Trussell Trust,
17:32 who provide the food banks elsewhere around the towns,
17:36 and indeed around the county.
17:38 And I think it's really important to thank all the volunteers
17:39 for participating in that, and of course,
17:42 people, ordinary people, who donate to the food banks.
17:45 And I'm sorry that they have to exist.
17:48 They have, as Alex pointed out,
17:50 they have existed for a long time.
17:52 We are seeing a growth in their reliance,
17:55 which is unfortunate, and it's certainly not something
17:58 you go into politics to see.
18:00 But there is a major cost of living crisis.
18:02 Some of that is beyond the control of the government,
18:06 and we're trying to help navigate people through that
18:08 with extra support for counterattacks, for example,
18:14 and energy and so on.
18:17 But in terms of what more could we be doing,
18:20 I'm as surprised as many others that the Mental Health Act
18:22 wasn't in the King's Speech, and certainly have been
18:25 written already to the Secretary of State to ask why.
18:28 And what more can we do to help tackle some of the problems
18:31 that require a holistic approach,
18:33 which Alex has pointed out, to support people
18:37 in their time of need?
18:39 Alex, it's really quite astonishing to hear the Street
18:41 Angels saying that they've grown so much that they're
18:43 going to need a million pounds, effectively,
18:45 to keep their charity going.
18:47 I mean, does that money exist for an organisation like that?
18:51 I'm not quite sure the ins and outs of how you raise those funds.
18:54 I certainly know that during lockdown,
18:56 when Medway Food Bank were catering for an increasing
19:02 number of people, I actually ended up giving my entire
19:05 ward improvement fund for the year to them,
19:08 because they were really struggling to keep up with demand.
19:11 And just to put in the infrastructure in a warehouse
19:15 to feed that many people a week is quite something.
19:19 So we certainly need to help them achieve those goals.
19:23 But as I say, we need to try and solve the problem at the start.
19:29 I think if I may, there's other banks as well out there.
19:32 So we are seeing some clothing banks that's been set up.
19:37 We're seeing hygiene banks, which is also a really important
19:40 path, particularly in supporting those who are homeless.
19:43 We're seeing charities and organisations be able to provide
19:48 shower opportunities, clothing change opportunities,
19:52 because people who are finding themselves in difficult
19:55 circumstances, again, they need, sorry to use the phrase again,
19:58 a holistic support package.
20:01 Obviously eating is, you can't live without it,
20:05 so I'm pointing out the obvious.
20:07 But there are other things that other organisations are out
20:11 there trying to help provide as well.
20:13 When Medway Labour won power of Medway Council just back in May,
20:19 cost of living was one of the big issues that you said
20:21 you were going to look to address.
20:23 And obviously it must be slightly concerning to see
20:25 a few months later, the Street Angels saying they're getting
20:28 record demand for their services.
20:31 What can you do?
20:32 What should you be doing now to try and give them more support
20:35 and try and take some of that demand away?
20:37 Because that's ultimately what people want, isn't it?
20:40 So certainly as a council, we can do our best to support
20:42 organisations like Gillingham Street Angels.
20:46 What we have been able to do is, since taking control in May,
20:50 we have produced a cost of living plan which sets out,
20:53 and I think its greatest achievement,
20:56 I think, is in bringing together all the support in one place
21:00 and signposting people to the support that is available.
21:03 But once again, it's back to treating the symptoms
21:07 rather than treating the underlying conditions.
21:09 So there is a limit to what a council can do.
21:12 We are relying on a government actually taking those steps,
21:16 bringing forward the Mental Health Act and tackling
21:20 those root issues and not dismissing homelessness
21:24 as a lifestyle choice.
21:25 Nobody chooses to live like that.
21:27 I'm sorry, but you can point to one or two people
21:30 swinging the lead.
21:31 I'm sure they exist.
21:33 But the vast majority of people who are in desperate situations,
21:36 whether it's veterans suffering mental health issues,
21:39 people living in tents, they do that because they have no choice.
21:44 The lifestyle choice.
21:45 We're back to Suella Braverman again.
21:48 I mean, people are going to be hearing that.
21:50 A lot of people will hear that and will be reminded of the time
21:52 when the Conservative Party were known as the nasty party.
21:55 Does it worry you?
21:56 So just on the particular lifestyle comment,
22:00 I mean, I've worked with homeless charity
22:02 since I got elected in 2010.
22:04 You know, I've worked to repeal the Vagrancy Act,
22:08 which criminalised people who were homeless.
22:11 So the initial suggestion that we were going to criminalise
22:14 people in tents was not the desired outcome
22:19 or indeed alternative of scrapping the Vagrancy Act.
22:23 And I think that we always need to remember that homelessness
22:27 and rough sleeping are two very different things.
22:30 I think that we need to try and make sure that we do have
22:33 those interventions in place.
22:35 Alex mentioned veterans.
22:38 There is a lot of work being done to ensure that people
22:41 who are leaving the military services have an exit strategy
22:45 in place that supports them and that they know or understand
22:49 where they can go to if they do find themselves in crisis.
22:52 I'm very fortunate to have the RBLI in my constituency
22:56 who provide not just housing support,
22:59 but whole lifestyle support for people who are leaving the army
23:03 and find themselves in that particular crisis.
23:06 Tracy, before we leave the King's Speech as a topic,
23:08 we must talk about the big success that you had
23:11 in the King's Speech.
23:12 You were the author of the fan-led football review,
23:15 which called for an independent regulator for football
23:19 to try and even out some of the inequalities that exist
23:21 within the game.
23:23 That's now going to become law from everything
23:25 that we've heard this week because it's been proposed
23:27 in the King's Speech.
23:28 Labour say that they support it.
23:30 How important is that?
23:31 I think it's really important.
23:32 You know, we have some really important clubs
23:35 across the county, different levels of the football pyramid,
23:38 but still equally important in their communities.
23:41 And if we can ensure long-term financial sustainability
23:46 of those football clubs, it's not just good
23:48 for the football club, but it's good
23:49 for the whole entire communities.
23:51 There's an entire ecosystem that depends
23:54 on those clubs existing.
23:56 So, you know, I think that it's a really positive step forward
24:00 for football and I think it'll be quite a historic moment.
24:04 It's going to be tough though, isn't it?
24:06 I mean, we're talking about a very powerful lobbying group
24:08 here that is being taken on in the Premier League particularly.
24:12 Alex, do you think there might be challenges ahead
24:14 for, I mean, to make this work as well as it might
24:17 for Gillingham Football Club, for example?
24:19 I'm sure that there will be obstacles along the way
24:22 presented not just by local clubs,
24:25 but those that are owned by foreign billionaires
24:30 and all of these people who have vested interests
24:32 and that's the purpose of government.
24:33 But I've got to commend Tracey for her work on this
24:36 and it's something that absolutely the Labour Party
24:39 wants to see happen.
24:40 And indeed, variations on the theme have been part
24:43 of our manifesto since 2015.
24:46 I want to reassure Tracey that if her party finds itself
24:50 on the opposition benches next year,
24:52 it's something that Labour colleagues are committed
24:55 to taking forward along with a regulator and implementing...
24:58 Fortunately, I think it'll be law by that time.
25:02 I mean, football fans can be a cynical bunch sometimes.
25:07 You're going to be toughening up what was called
25:09 the fit and proper test for club ownership.
25:11 I'm a Charlton fan.
25:13 I have the great displeasure of being a Charlton fan
25:16 and we know how difficult it can be to find an owner
25:18 who's prepared to invest, that passes that test.
25:21 We've had all kinds of problems with that at Charlton.
25:23 Gillingham obviously have been through something similar
25:25 quite recently.
25:27 Is it going to make it harder for a club that finds itself
25:30 lacking an owner to find a suitable person with the money
25:33 who passes the test to come in?
25:34 No, I don't think it'll find it harder.
25:36 I think it'll just actually mean that there is better,
25:40 greater stress testing of the owners who want to come in
25:44 and take over football clubs.
25:45 Those tests exist in other highly regulated environments
25:48 such as financial services.
25:51 But actually, the one thing having spoken to many owners
25:54 over the course of the last two years that I've discovered
25:57 is that they make their money in highly regulated environments.
26:00 They're not frightened of regulation and good governance.
26:02 They are frightened of fans and they are frightened
26:05 of displeasing those fans.
26:07 So actually what they are more interested in talking
26:10 about when they've been speaking to me is how do they engage
26:12 better with their fan base and what can they do
26:14 to improve those conversations.
26:16 Thank you very much.
26:17 Well, that's all we've got time for here at the Kent Politics Show.
26:19 Thank you to both of my guests for joining us tonight.
26:21 We'll be back next week.
26:22 There's more political news, opinion and analysis
26:25 in the politics tab at Kent Online.
26:27 But stay with us because Kent Tonight is coming up
26:29 with all the news including that protest in Rochester.
26:32 Stay with us then.
26:33 Have a good evening.
26:34 Good night.
26:35 [Music playing]
26:46 [Silence]