Is The Influencer Economy DEAD-
Balance is so important in personal life but it also plays a MASSIVE ROLE in business and entrepreneurship. Everything finds equilibrium after some time and it's the same with the creator economy. On today's episode of the GaryVee Audio Experience, I sit down with author and The Washington Post columnist Taylor Lorenz. We discuss her new book "Extremely Online", the realities of being a social media influencer, and the evolving world of social media and the internet.
Balance is so important in personal life but it also plays a MASSIVE ROLE in business and entrepreneurship. Everything finds equilibrium after some time and it's the same with the creator economy. On today's episode of the GaryVee Audio Experience, I sit down with author and The Washington Post columnist Taylor Lorenz. We discuss her new book "Extremely Online", the realities of being a social media influencer, and the evolving world of social media and the internet.
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FunTranscript
00:00 nothing becomes dead, it finds its new equilibrium.
00:04 We don't sell as many newspapers as we did in 1950
00:07 because a lot more attention is put into the phone
00:10 and the television and the radio
00:11 and all these other things that came along.
00:13 But the newspaper used to be five cents.
00:15 You know, I looked the other day,
00:16 I was kind of in the air for like,
00:17 damn, newspapers got pretty expensive, and I get it.
00:19 It becomes a, you gotta find your equilibrium
00:21 to run a viable business against the cost and demand.
00:25 But like this concept of dead is silly.
00:27 Attention is the number one asset.
00:30 VaynerNation, how are you?
00:32 Super excited about talking about the history
00:35 of the internet and social media.
00:38 Always think that the lessons of the past
00:40 give us previews to the future.
00:43 So I'm excited to introduce author Taylor to the show.
00:46 So Taylor, why don't you tell everybody who you are,
00:49 the name of the book, and why you wrote it,
00:51 and then let's jam into it.
00:53 - Yeah, my name is Taylor Lorenz.
00:55 I'm a technology columnist at the Washington Post.
00:58 And I wrote this book extremely online
01:01 because I wanted to sort of talk
01:03 about the first 20 years of the social web.
01:05 So it's really about the rise of social media
01:08 and the content creator industry.
01:10 It sort of tells the rise of social media
01:12 through the lens of, you know, these big content creators
01:14 that really shaped the internet and these platforms.
01:17 - What do you think is the biggest,
01:18 so actually, let me take us back to the audience.
01:20 Audience, as a lot of you know,
01:22 like this has become a real thing.
01:23 And obviously, I also wrote a book,
01:25 there it is if you're watching visually, "Crush It,"
01:28 which talked a lot about this YouTube, Twitter thing
01:31 might lead to people being able to make a living online.
01:34 And I remember reading the early reviews on Amazon
01:37 and people like, "This is crazy.
01:38 "Nobody's gonna make $50,000 a year
01:40 "being themselves online."
01:42 And to think where we are all these years later,
01:45 you know, what do you think most people misunderstand
01:49 about creators and influencers
01:52 from a general public standpoint?
01:54 - Yeah, I mean, I think people just,
01:56 like it has the worst reputation, you know?
01:59 I think people just think, "Oh, it's really easy.
02:01 "You're just taking selfies all day.
02:03 "You know, how hard is it to generate content?
02:04 "I could, you know, YouTube my life or whatever."
02:07 It's actually incredibly, incredibly hard.
02:10 You've gotta be a great storyteller.
02:11 It's an enormous amount of work, you know,
02:13 even if you're just editing stuff.
02:15 And so, yeah, I just think it gets a little bit maligned.
02:18 I think people don't realize that these content creators
02:20 are actually sort of real entrepreneurs.
02:23 - Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Donny Osmond or Minuto
02:26 or New Kids on the Block, right?
02:27 Or Samantha from Who's the Boss?
02:30 Like there's an acceptance that there's been teen stars
02:35 in our culture prior to the mature internet,
02:39 but the size and scale and what is not deemed as a skill,
02:43 to your point, I don't think people understand.
02:45 At VaynerMedia, we call it SOC, Strategic Organic Content.
02:49 There is like deep analytics to what time you post,
02:53 what is the best feature that you can use right now,
02:56 like a two image or video carousel right now on Instagram
03:01 is outperforming a regular Reels video.
03:04 You know, being first on a TikTok or a Musical.ly
03:08 five years ago is gonna have more opportunity
03:10 and upside of growth than today.
03:12 So the strategy of understanding consumer behavior,
03:15 the thumbnail, the headline, the copy,
03:19 the business development of doing collabs
03:21 with the right people at the right time,
03:24 negotiating with big brands to do brand deals.
03:26 I mean, it is truly a high level of entrepreneurship,
03:30 but because the numbers are lucrative
03:33 and often not always the people are young,
03:37 there's this subconscious disrespect for the craft, yes?
03:40 - Yes, 100%, yes.
03:43 And I talk also in the book too
03:45 about sort of like the industry itself,
03:47 it was sort of pioneered with people outside
03:49 of the sort of mainstream media system.
03:52 I actually talk about the rise of mommy bloggers
03:54 and kind of how they advertise and commodify themselves
03:57 and then early YouTubers.
03:59 And so I think just a lot of people have written it off.
04:01 It reminds me when I first started writing
04:03 about the internet, how people used to say,
04:05 oh, why you cover YouTube?
04:07 It's just a site for cat videos.
04:09 And of course that's just not true anymore.
04:12 And I think most people wouldn't say that today,
04:13 but it's reminiscent of how they talk about TikTok, right?
04:16 Like, oh, the teen dance app.
04:17 And it's like, well, these platforms
04:19 are so much more than that, you know?
04:21 But I think people just still haven't,
04:23 yeah, there's just not that level of sort of like--
04:26 - You know, it made sense to me,
04:27 'cause I obviously grew up in the game.
04:29 It made sense to me when people said that
04:31 about Facebook and Twitter,
04:33 'cause they didn't have a comp, right?
04:35 MySpace sold very early, Friendster couldn't stay up.
04:40 Why do you think today that not everyone,
04:44 and it's evolving and you see that it's evolving,
04:46 but that many in the general public,
04:48 even though they've seen YouTube, Twitter, Facebook,
04:53 Snap, have longevity, be meaningful businesses,
04:56 go public, run real businesses, have real revenue.
05:01 Why do you think people inevitably,
05:03 you know this Taylor, like the next 24 to 72 months,
05:07 a new app will pop up and it will be destined
05:10 to be one of those things?
05:11 And I kind of believe,
05:13 and I sense that that's where you were going,
05:16 that again, people will be dismissive and say,
05:18 oh, that's just for people wanting to play games,
05:20 or like, that's only for people who can write,
05:23 or, you know, like, that's only for radio personalities
05:26 if it's an audio thing.
05:27 Like, why with seven to 10 meaningful examples now
05:32 that rise from youth to full mainstream,
05:38 do you think people continue to be dismissed?
05:40 I mean, when I was yelling about TikTok,
05:42 it was on the back of Instagram and Snap,
05:46 and I just thought that people would understand,
05:48 and yet, even the people that were on Instagram
05:51 and winning as influencers probably spent a year or two
05:54 too late to jump into TikTok to get all the good attention.
05:58 What is that inhuman behavior that continues
06:00 to allow them to be dismissive of obvious results?
06:04 - Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people
06:06 are just overwhelmed by technology,
06:07 and they don't wanna feel like they have
06:09 to learn a new app, you know?
06:10 They wanna just sort of dismiss it.
06:12 A lot of times, as you mentioned,
06:13 these things are adopted by young people,
06:15 which people are inherently dismissive of,
06:18 especially young girls, you know?
06:19 Like, teen girls, they can make an app hugely viral,
06:23 but, you know, a lot of people are just like,
06:24 ah, it's just a silly little, you know, kids app.
06:26 So I think it's sort of a combination of those two things.
06:29 It's just, a lot of it's just tech fatigue of like,
06:32 oh, I don't wanna have to learn,
06:33 oh, now I've gotta learn TikTok, you know?
06:35 And it's like, well, maybe, you know,
06:37 if you wanna take advantage of it, yeah.
06:39 - There's so many content creators,
06:41 there's so many entrepreneurs,
06:42 there's so many Fortune 500 executives
06:44 listening to this interview right now.
06:46 What do you think is the biggest value from the book?
06:49 Like, what do you think they get out of it?
06:52 And what do you, if you wanna double click
06:54 into any part of the book, like,
06:56 when I set it up that way,
06:57 and you recognize the size and scale,
06:59 and who is in the audience listening to this right now,
07:03 what is the value prop for them?
07:06 - Yeah, well, I think there's so many business lessons
07:09 in this book.
07:09 I mean, one thing that my book talks about
07:11 is sort of these mistakes
07:12 that these Silicon Valley platforms made, actually,
07:15 in sort of misunderstanding their user base,
07:18 misjudging their creators.
07:19 There's a ton of unreported information
07:22 about the end of Vine, actually,
07:23 and sort of the implications that it has,
07:25 even for Twitter today.
07:26 I think Musk is learning a lot of the same lessons
07:29 that the founders of Vine learned the hard way.
07:31 So I think it's a great book for any kind of,
07:33 anyone that wants to be entrepreneurial,
07:35 because it also talks about the rise
07:36 of this sort of simultaneous industry, right?
07:38 The content creator industry,
07:39 and how people sort of worked outside the realms
07:42 of Silicon Valley and elsewhere
07:43 to kind of start their own businesses,
07:45 build their own brands,
07:46 and in really interesting, unique ways.
07:48 I think this whole, the way that social media emerged,
07:50 and the stories that have been told,
07:53 it sort of hasn't told that other side of it,
07:55 of the user side.
07:56 So I think you just,
07:57 I think you can learn so much about kind of,
07:58 even just where things are going in tech and media,
08:01 'cause that's also what the book is all about.
08:03 - And how many people have you spoken to
08:07 that have read the book?
08:08 Like, I'm talking like friends and family,
08:10 and just like random,
08:11 like what would you say, roughly at this point?
08:12 - Probably about 100 people at this point.
08:15 - So that's perfect.
08:16 I was hoping it was that kind of number.
08:18 What do you think stands out?
08:20 Like what have you been,
08:21 'cause given that, you know,
08:22 I've written six or seven books now,
08:24 and I'm always, it's always so fun to be like,
08:26 "Oh man, I wasn't even like,
08:28 like, you know, you talk to like 20 people,
08:30 and like seven of them are like,
08:31 "Man, I really liked the thing about the canoe."
08:32 And I'm like, "What?"
08:33 And you don't even remember, 'cause you know this,
08:35 it's a forever process.
08:36 And I'm like, "The canoe?"
08:37 "Yeah, on page 19."
08:38 And you go back and you're like,
08:39 "Wow, that's the thing?"
08:41 Have you had that moment?
08:42 Is there anything that you'd be surprised by,
08:44 or what has stood out to those 100 people?
08:48 - I continually am surprised by this actually,
08:50 because what you described
08:51 is exactly what's been happening.
08:53 A lot of people are really surprised
08:55 at how these companies were founded.
08:56 Like, they assumed that YouTube
08:58 always was gonna be what it was.
08:59 They didn't realize it started as a dating site,
09:01 for instance.
09:02 And they didn't realize that like,
09:04 the way that Twitter evolved,
09:05 I think a lot of people have this mythology
09:08 in their head around these businesses.
09:09 And this is why I think it's such a good read,
09:11 because it really gets into lots of businesses in one book.
09:13 You know, there's the YouTube book,
09:15 there's an Instagram book, there's a Facebook book.
09:17 I'm like, "Okay, those are great books,
09:19 "but you can just read this book
09:21 "that sort of has like the sort of the key takeaways
09:23 "of all these platforms, including Snapchat,
09:25 "as I mentioned, the live streaming boom,
09:27 "what made you now successful at that time
09:30 "in the mid 2010s, how did they lose market share?"
09:32 So yeah, and people have gravitated
09:34 to those little things.
09:35 Like, you now is another way.
09:36 They're like, "Oh yeah, I forgot about that.
09:37 "I didn't know people made a living
09:38 "and what that did to sort of Twitch."
09:41 And so, yeah, it's more just like a lot of like
09:44 random unexpected little--
09:46 - Yeah, it makes sense.
09:47 Given that you're a journalist,
09:48 given that you've been in this,
09:50 obviously I've watched your career blossom
09:52 and as someone who kind of like,
09:54 tries to really pay attention to shit,
09:56 like I've always thought you've done a good job.
09:58 And so, I'm really curious about this question.
10:01 And this is one woman's subjective point of view.
10:06 This is in fact for you,
10:08 as you go through the history of this last 25 years or so,
10:11 whatever it is, 15, 20, 25,
10:14 which app or platform are you personally like disappointed,
10:18 didn't make it or isn't in the top five today?
10:22 Or you could take another track,
10:25 you're most surprised that it didn't make it.
10:28 You understand why, 'cause you've done the research,
10:30 but you're most still surprised
10:32 or tell people a story of like,
10:35 why it should be here and what the one bad move was
10:39 that changed the course of it.
10:41 - Yeah, well, you know, it's such a great question.
10:45 There's a few, obviously Vine, I'm a millennial,
10:48 I grew up on Vine.
10:49 It makes me so sad that the way that app
10:51 was sort of misused.
10:52 - That was sold incredibly quickly, right?
10:55 That was within a year?
10:56 - That was pre-launch, pre-launch to Twitter, yeah.
10:59 Yeah, and then Twitter mismanaged it.
11:01 I mean, I think Vine could have really rivaled TikTok.
11:04 Like Vine--
11:05 - But Vine was the preview to TikTok.
11:07 - Exactly, you couldn't have Vine without TikTok.
11:09 I also have to say Gary, Snapchat.
11:11 Like Snapchat has been a surprising one
11:13 where it had so much hype and it was ascendant
11:16 and then they really also kind of
11:17 shot themselves in the foot.
11:18 They refused to embrace creators.
11:20 - Let's double click into that.
11:22 Snapchat today, as you know, 'cause you covered a space,
11:25 continues to dominate messaging between the youth, right?
11:30 - Yeah.
11:31 - Yet so many of these 17 year olds
11:34 will literally talk to all their friends.
11:36 It is their core.
11:37 It is like, hey, elders without kids
11:39 or even 30 year olds without kids,
11:42 like this is where they text,
11:44 not on WhatsApp and on iMessage.
11:47 You know, Spotlight is sitting right down there,
11:50 one click away.
11:52 Which for everybody at home that doesn't use it,
11:54 which is most by the way,
11:55 which is the point I'm getting at,
11:57 that is basically in essence, their feed,
11:59 their TikTok, their Instagram.
12:01 And you and I know, 'cause we do this for a living,
12:04 the content in there is very similar to the content
12:07 that is in TikTok and Instagram.
12:10 What do you think Snap is missing
12:13 or why is it have more?
12:15 I continue to believe that they could take
12:17 20% market share of the feed economy
12:20 in a snap, pun intended,
12:23 if they tweaked it a little bit,
12:25 what's your take on why the majority of people
12:29 that consume Instagram and TikTok do not also consume,
12:33 I mean, more of them consume YouTube shorts
12:35 for the most into it,
12:37 than Snap, Highlight, when it's sitting right there,
12:39 they're already there, they're in the room.
12:42 They're in the fucking house.
12:43 They're just not going to the other living room, why?
12:46 - Yeah, I mean, my book actually sort of talks
12:49 about Evan's mismanagement of kind of,
12:52 or I would say mismanagement,
12:53 he made a series of decisions that I think sort of set them
12:56 up to be in this difficult spot.
12:58 One, he insisted on separating that social experience
13:01 and the media consumption experience.
13:03 I don't know if you remember, I think it was 2017 or 2018
13:05 when he split the two and he sort of talked about that.
13:08 I think that was a mistake.
13:10 And even today, it's just they haven't,
13:14 they're sort of very anti-social in a way,
13:16 like they don't lean into things
13:18 that I think you're right.
13:19 Like I watch it and I'm like,
13:21 my God, you're shooting yourself in the foot.
13:23 They also alienated their whole first class
13:25 of content creators.
13:26 And yes, I know a lot of content creators
13:27 are making big money on, discover still, some of them.
13:32 - Well, that is because it's all supply and demand
13:36 and the ones that are going hard in it,
13:38 there's still plenty of attention.
13:39 It's just the majority of creators
13:40 don't even think to go hard in it.
13:42 - Exactly, yeah.
13:44 And I think that's because of the company's history
13:47 with the creators, where they alienated
13:49 and sort of, they didn't,
13:50 they had a very hostile relationship
13:51 with creators for a while.
13:52 I mean, that whole first generation of Snapchat creators,
13:55 they didn't want those people on the platform.
13:56 They wanted it to be about one-to-one IRL friends,
13:59 close friends.
14:00 I think that was a mistake.
14:01 - Makes sense.
14:02 What are you, here's a fun one.
14:04 I'm sure this crosses your mind.
14:07 What do you think the next snap,
14:10 'cause kudos to them, they built a great company,
14:12 but to your point, I think both of us kind of
14:14 in our stomachs feel like there's more upside there.
14:17 What do you think the next snap TikTok Instagram is?
14:22 Like, what do you, and this is like,
14:24 I mean, if you really knew,
14:25 you'd be fucking doing it, right?
14:27 (laughs)
14:28 You know, what do you,
14:28 and so I'm not asking you directly.
14:30 I'm actually talking more genre I brought up earlier.
14:32 Is it voice?
14:33 Is it this?
14:34 Like, where, do you have any thoughts
14:38 on the kind of thing that is kind of missing
14:41 in the marketplace or what kind of aspects
14:45 of the entrepreneur and or the app
14:47 will be needed to be the next breakout app?
14:50 - Yeah.
14:51 - Or finally, I apologize,
14:53 'cause I really wanna get this for you,
14:54 or the common thread of these 15 to 20
14:57 over the last 15 years that won it
15:00 with so much of the journalistic research you've done.
15:02 Is there any common theme
15:04 or is it two contextual moments in time, blah, blah, blah?
15:07 - Yeah, there's a few sort of answers.
15:11 Number one, I think just in terms of where things are going,
15:13 one thing that seems interesting to me
15:15 is a lot of, there keeps being these sort of like,
15:17 I think desire for sort of simultaneous ephemeral experiences
15:21 like whether it's voice, like a clubhouse room or RIP
15:24 or like Twitter spaces and stuff,
15:25 or even just something like Be Real,
15:27 where it's sort of about this like
15:28 simultaneous online experience.
15:31 I think a lot of people, even like a TikTok Live, right?
15:34 It sort of fulfills that need.
15:36 So I don't know if we'll see like a separate app
15:38 or like feature sets building into that,
15:40 but that definitely seems to be like a desire from users.
15:43 I think for anyone looking to make the next big social app,
15:46 you're gonna have a lot of competition
15:48 because, look, TikTok had to spend a billion
15:51 in marketing alone in 2019 on app downloads
15:54 just to really kind of compete against Facebook and Google.
15:58 But I think there's a lot more room for small niche apps
16:00 and people wanna spend more time
16:02 with like sort of restricted communities.
16:04 That's why you see more people moving into like Discord
16:06 and these group chat platforms.
16:08 So that's, yeah, that's interesting.
16:10 I was also just saying like another lesson from my book,
16:13 like the one bit, like a big lesson that I learned
16:15 from sort of like watching these companies rise and fall
16:18 is to be flexible, like be flexible,
16:21 because these founders, they never understood
16:23 sort of like or predicted how their products
16:26 would end up being used.
16:27 And it's really the founders that could kind of like
16:28 roll with it instead of be like,
16:30 "Well, no, but I built the business for this,"
16:32 or "I want people to be sharing this way.
16:34 Why aren't they doing that?"
16:35 Instead of being- - And by the way,
16:36 I'm sorry to jump in,
16:37 rolling with it, everyone, is adjusting to the reality.
16:40 - Yes. (laughs)
16:41 - It's called being consumer-centric.
16:44 You know, I think Taylor's point is well taken.
16:47 We've talked a little bit about, you know,
16:49 and by the way, Ev's conviction,
16:52 Evan Spiegel's conviction is also how he got there
16:55 in the first place, right?
16:56 Like it's like your gift is your curse at times, right?
16:59 And so having that conviction up front
17:02 tends to get you there.
17:04 Really taking a step back and adjusting to the reality
17:06 of consumer behavior becomes a whole new skill set.
17:10 It's counter-punching.
17:12 You know, it's like Floyd Mayweather more than Mike Tyson
17:16 potentially gets you there.
17:17 It's like you have full conviction of what you're doing.
17:20 And then as you get into the later rounds,
17:22 AKA the app is a little more mature,
17:24 you're seeing what consumers are doing with it.
17:26 Now you're kind of rolling with the punches.
17:28 Early Twitter, anecdote for that is early Twitter,
17:32 the retweet concept was RT colon
17:38 and you would control copy what somebody would say.
17:41 Twitter's team in those early days saw that,
17:43 created the retweet button.
17:45 You know, it's trying to eliminate friction
17:48 from your consumer or be okay
17:50 with who's using your product, right?
17:52 Back to consumer goods, Cristal, the champagne,
17:56 you know, really hurt its business
17:57 by saying their champagne was for a certain demo
18:00 and they had to feel the ramifications of that.
18:02 You know, when you're an app creator,
18:05 adjusting to what's actually happening,
18:06 to your point, nobody knows the YouTube dating part.
18:09 And then the next year, 'cause I was there in 2006,
18:12 was pirated content.
18:14 - Yeah, yeah.
18:14 - I mean, it was all family,
18:15 it was all the Simpsons and late night television.
18:19 So these things evolve.
18:21 - Yeah, 100%.
18:24 And I think it's, as you mentioned, it's really hard,
18:26 especially if you are an entrepreneur
18:28 where you built this product because you want it,
18:30 you know, like to fulfill your need or something, right?
18:32 And like, you're like, whoa,
18:33 here's this whole other user base
18:35 that I never even expected.
18:37 So yeah, that was a big lesson
18:38 because the companies that didn't evolve that way
18:41 failed very quickly.
18:43 - Yeah, that makes sense.
18:44 What's most interesting, what are you most curious about?
18:46 Like what's out of the second?
18:48 'Cause I, you know, obviously,
18:50 look, everybody who's listening,
18:51 I think, you know, why I like having authors on
18:54 is like, it's just hard to get in depth.
18:56 I mean, right now, one of the biggest issues in America
18:58 is headline reading and jumping to conclusions.
19:01 So, you know, I'm famously not a great reader
19:04 and I don't tend to read a lot of books
19:06 and I don't, really what I do is I'm more audio,
19:10 I listen, I look for social cues,
19:11 the way I publicly speak is reacting to the audience.
19:14 But for so many of you listening,
19:16 book form is a monster.
19:18 And to me, I still think books,
19:19 I'm almost blown away by this.
19:21 It seems funny 'cause it's so normalized,
19:23 but like the depth of content you get in book form
19:26 for what ends up being normally under 20 bucks on Amazon
19:30 is like pretty profound.
19:31 So people that wanna do the homework,
19:33 I think a lot of you know,
19:34 I believe the best way to predict the future
19:36 is to know the past.
19:38 And so I think, you know,
19:39 Taylor putting this all together in one place
19:41 and grounding it is something worth exploring,
19:45 I think will be valuable for you.
19:46 But knowing that that's a history context play
19:49 while you're on the podcast, what about right now?
19:52 What's kind of like, what's intriguing to you?
19:54 Like, what are you like,
19:55 uh-oh, there's some smoke over there,
19:57 I need to do more homework.
19:58 Like, what are you excited to do homework on
20:00 as we close out this year,
20:01 whether it's an app or a genre of apps
20:04 or creators or anything really in technology?
20:07 - Yeah, I mean, I'm just really interested
20:09 in kind of seeing TikTok mature, obviously,
20:12 and kind of the business, the revenue models.
20:13 I think now there's this understanding of like,
20:16 okay, creators need to get paid
20:18 and these platforms have sort of acknowledged it.
20:20 And so they're all rolling out
20:21 these different revenue options.
20:23 And I think it's maturing in a really interesting way.
20:25 As you mentioned, YouTube Shorts has really, you know,
20:27 taken off in certain ways.
20:28 And so I think certain people are monetizing
20:30 just through that.
20:31 So I'm just looking more at the revenue streams
20:33 and seeing like, okay,
20:34 how are people building these businesses of the future
20:36 and how much of it are they relying on the platforms?
20:38 I think increasingly people are not relying
20:40 on the platforms, right?
20:41 They're doing the merch lines and the product lines
20:43 and things that are not necessarily tied to advertising.
20:46 But I'll see, also, I think the strike,
20:48 the strike right now happening in Hollywood
20:50 is gonna have a big effect on the entertainment industry.
20:52 I think it's a huge opportunity
20:53 for people that make content on the internet, to be honest,
20:56 especially next year when there's not gonna be
20:58 a lot of programming.
20:58 So yeah, those are things.
21:01 - I'll also just say one other thing, Gary.
21:02 I'm also not a good, like, I like fast reads.
21:05 I try to make the biggest compliment.
21:07 And that's the one thing that I would say
21:08 of all the people, everyone I've talked to,
21:10 they say it's a fast read and it's a quick.
21:12 I mean, I tried to make the chapters kind of bite-sized.
21:14 I do have an audio book version because I'm the same way.
21:17 I'm like, just give me the info.
21:18 Like, I don't need all this sort of like fluff around it.
21:21 - Let's talk about author life.
21:22 Actually, I have two questions.
21:23 Actually, let me get to my, I'll end with author life
21:25 'cause there's a lot of aspiring authors that I wanna,
21:29 I apologize, Taylor.
21:30 Is this your first book?
21:31 - Yes, yes, it is.
21:32 - Great, so that will make it even more fun.
21:34 I'll get to that in a second.
21:36 Taylor, what is the practicality of the dream that I dreamed
21:41 and it was really not a dream.
21:42 It was the observation I made in 2000.
21:45 When did I write this book?
21:47 2007, 2008 when I wrote "Crush It."
21:50 2007, I wrote it, it came out in '08.
21:52 What is the realistic nature of the practicality
21:58 of somebody making $50,000 a year being a creator
22:03 around their favorite thing in the world?
22:05 Texas Longhorn football, Raspberry Jam,
22:10 Checkers, the Smurfs.
22:12 We talk about the Charlie D'Amelio's, the Logan Paul.
22:17 These are, Mr. Beast, these are big enterprises.
22:19 That is cool and amazing and I'm here for that life.
22:23 I'm incredibly intrigued by the 11 year olds
22:27 at home today who are destined to live a life
22:32 where they were going to just do something
22:35 they didn't fully love to pay the mortgage.
22:38 The stuff that I'm passionate about with my content,
22:39 which is like, fuck the money,
22:41 can you find to be happy?
22:43 And that comes in so many shapes and sizes.
22:45 How practical is it in today and going forward
22:51 as this continues to grow the long tail of creators
22:54 for people to find a salary that is manageable
22:59 to live within, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100,
23:03 $110,000 a year income, but joy for days
23:08 because it's about coin collecting and that's their,
23:10 in essence, the hobby becoming the profession
23:14 because of this infrastructure.
23:16 How real is it today?
23:17 How real is it in the future from someone
23:19 who's done a lot of work to research it?
23:21 - Yeah, I mean, look, it's more competitive today,
23:24 I would say than 2007 or eight,
23:26 but we also have a lot more tools.
23:27 You don't need as big of an audience.
23:30 There's a lot more revenue options today.
23:32 So I think it is practical.
23:34 I mean, look, you have to build a media business.
23:36 So you have to ask yourself,
23:38 can I build a media business around this thing that I love?
23:40 And a lot of people can,
23:41 and there just continues to be opportunity on the internet.
23:45 I have to laugh because there's this cycle every two years
23:48 when people say, oh, the influencer industry is dead.
23:50 The creator economy is dead.
23:53 - Media is not getting less.
23:55 - Taylor, newspapers are still being printed.
23:57 - It's true.
23:59 - When people say,
24:00 "Garret, do you think the creator economy is dead?"
24:01 I'm like, brother, newspapers are being sold today.
24:04 Newspapers.
24:05 - I know, I work for one.
24:06 - Yeah, like, and by the way, I don't say that as a razz.
24:09 I say that nothing becomes dead,
24:11 it finds its new equilibrium.
24:14 We don't sell as many newspapers as we did in 1950
24:17 because a lot more attention is put into the phone
24:20 and the television and the radio
24:22 and all these other things that came along.
24:24 But the newspaper used to be 5 cents.
24:26 Newspapers are, you know, I looked the other day,
24:27 I was kind of in the airport, I was like,
24:28 damn, newspapers have gotten pretty expensive.
24:30 And I get it, it becomes a,
24:31 you gotta find your equilibrium
24:32 to run a viable business against the cost and demand.
24:36 But like this concept of dead is silly.
24:38 - It's so silly, it's so silly.
24:40 And again, we are getting more and more online every year.
24:43 Media is getting more and more digital every year.
24:45 So I think, yes, I definitely think
24:48 there's a lot of opportunity on the internet
24:51 in terms of building content around what you love.
24:54 - Let's finish with this to the other side.
24:56 More, people always say, Gary, why do you write books?
24:58 You're all digital, like, 'cause people read them.
25:00 You know, like, yes, I like the opportunity in digital,
25:02 but I also like the, I hate TV commercials as a medium,
25:06 but I love the Super Bowl
25:07 because that one I think actually gets consumed.
25:10 So like, it all just comes down to actual consumption
25:12 and there's an awful lot of books being read.
25:14 So to that point, no bullshit, be vulnerable.
25:18 Like, how much do you want the book
25:20 to be commercially successful
25:23 out of just being competitive and wanting it to do well?
25:26 Or what other goals,
25:28 or what have you been surprised about
25:30 going through this journey as a first time author?
25:32 Obviously being a journalist,
25:34 you know, it's probably been in the back of your mind
25:36 forever, will I ever do it?
25:37 Will I do it?
25:38 How will I do it?
25:39 Talk to me about first the vulnerability of it,
25:41 which is like, if it does well, if it doesn't do well,
25:44 getting on lists, commercially successful,
25:46 like that part and then number two,
25:49 given that I'm assuming, but correct me if I'm wrong,
25:51 if you're someone who becomes a journalist,
25:53 writing a book is always in the back of your mind
25:55 and what was the biggest surprise
25:56 going through the first one?
25:58 - Yeah, well, I, you know, I care about the setting
26:02 sort of like getting the history out of the internet.
26:04 I think every journalist,
26:05 we write about the things we write about
26:07 because we're incredibly passionate about them.
26:09 So everything I wrote in my book,
26:10 these are things that I'm really passionate about.
26:12 This was an internet that I lived through.
26:13 I did so much reporting.
26:14 So I just want people to,
26:16 I'm like, guys, as you mentioned before,
26:17 there's actually crazy amount of information in this book.
26:20 And as a journalist, I want that information out there.
26:23 I want as many people to read it as possible.
26:25 I do not care about credentialism.
26:27 I'm very anti credentials and getting on,
26:30 oh, I made the list or whatever.
26:31 I already wrote for the New York Times.
26:33 I worked there for years.
26:34 I don't care about, you know, silly lists at all.
26:37 And no one should, these are all silly.
26:39 Everyone can be a bestseller today.
26:41 Look, go look at Amazon.
26:42 You can be the bestseller in every category.
26:44 That's silly.
26:45 I just want people to read the book, love it,
26:47 and talk about it.
26:48 Because I really love to talk about these things.
26:50 I want more people to kind of engage with these things
26:53 and take it to a deeper level
26:55 instead of saying yes or no.
26:57 - Because again, because there's this rich and crazy
27:00 and truly untold history behind a lot of this stuff.
27:04 And people see the success and they say,
27:06 oh yeah, well, it probably took off because of this.
27:08 No, there was like, there was this whole other, you know,
27:09 like talk a lot about these like debates and the founders.
27:12 And just, there's so much more to the story
27:14 than a lot of people know.
27:15 So I, yeah, I mean, I wrote the whole book
27:17 so I want people to read it.
27:19 - And what about the big surprise?
27:20 Even though-
27:21 - I think the surprise, well, it was, you know,
27:23 honestly it was trying to whittle it down.
27:25 There was so much information,
27:26 just trying to like get, you know,
27:27 get it through, keep it moving.
27:29 - You know, you were accustomed to do that for an article.
27:31 This was at such a different scale.
27:33 - Such a different scale, such a different scale.
27:34 But no, I mean, yeah, as a journalist,
27:37 you like to, you sort of think about it
27:39 in the back of your head, but I didn't want to waste,
27:40 I didn't want to do what a lot of people do in journalism,
27:42 which is just sort of do like essentially
27:44 what could have been an article as a book,
27:46 you know, 'cause they want to expand it out.
27:48 I was like, if I'm going to do a book,
27:49 like I want it to pack so much in,
27:52 in such a short time so that people, you know,
27:54 really kind of get it.
27:55 'Cause that's what I want out of books myself.
27:57 Like I'm like, just get it in as much as possible.
27:59 'Cause we don't have a lot of time, you know, these days.
28:02 - No, I've heard.
28:04 Taylor, thank you so much.
28:04 Congrats, good luck.
28:05 - Thanks for having me.
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