Everything but the Premier League | Is the Premier League still enjoyable?
Chris talks to the writer's of last years promoted teams, to discuss how this season has played out.
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00:00 Okay, so we know the show is called Everything but the Prem, but today we're looking at just that.
00:05 Only here we ask a question, is it everything it's cracked up to be?
00:09 For EFL clubs it's the promised land, ultimately where everyone wants to be,
00:13 but once you are there, given the size of a gap teams have to attempt to jump,
00:18 is there much fun in being turned over most weeks?
00:20 We're 10 games into the season and three teams who come up last year occupy the relegation places,
00:26 and if we're honest it would be no big surprise if that were to be the case come May.
00:30 So is it really worth it? Welcome to Everything but the Prem.
00:33 I'm Chris Holt, joining us this week are two reporters who saw their teams go up last year
00:44 and have enjoyed very fleeting moments of glee since then.
00:47 Sheffield United writer Danny Hall from the star is with us alongside,
00:51 from Luton today, Luton Town writer Mike Simmons.
00:54 Gentlemen, how are we? Let's cut to the chase here and we're bringing up and we're having this
01:01 conversation simply because it's my view that it's not been very enjoyable as someone who's
01:08 watched United so far this season be genuinely quite poor in a lot of games and in some games
01:17 just not managing to be good enough to beat the bigger teams. It has been a thoroughly
01:24 unenjoyable existence. Now I'm going to start with Danny first of all to hopefully back me up
01:34 on that but never maybe not be quite so downbeat. Danny is it worth it? I kind of posted a few weeks
01:43 ago saying does anyone actually enjoy Premier League and I didn't do that off the back of
01:49 Sheffield United. I actually did it off the back of the furore over the VAR at Liverpool in Tottenham
01:58 in the Liverpool Tottenham match because I knew that that was going to make up all of our football
02:04 content for the next week at least and it was driving me mad. However given my following,
02:15 there was obviously quite a few Sheffield United fans in there and they came back to me and said
02:20 they obviously thought it was talking about United but they came back to me and many of them said
02:29 a variation of the same thing that the journey is much more enjoyable than the destination
02:35 and is that something that you also agree with? I think that's fair. First of all I'm trying to
02:43 think of the fleeting moments of joy that you talked about so far this season. I'm trying to
02:48 think what they might have been. There was a goal against Man City and a goal against Man United
02:54 and that's about it really isn't it? Yeah, we're scraping the barrel aren't we? I completely agree
03:01 on the whole journey being better than the destination sort of theme. It's difficult to
03:07 touch on really isn't it because everyone pulls apart the 8-0 at home to Newcastle, everyone pulls
03:15 apart the 5-0 at Arsenal but almost as frustrating for me have been the games when United have been
03:22 in scoreline so close but in reality the gap even to teams that are on paper, not
03:30 light years ahead of Sheffield United, to Palace on the first day of the season, to
03:33 Forest, the way games like that to Everton when you think these shouldn't be stratospheres away
03:43 from where Sheffield United are but just those obviously not in terms of Everton but in terms
03:48 of Palace and Forest even, those couple of years in the Premier League and what that sort of does
03:53 for you as a club and where that takes you, the gap was just so big in terms of the resources,
04:01 the players that Chris Wood came off the bench and we know what he earns a week and the numbers
04:07 are absolutely frightening. He's a player that Forest were trying to actually get rid of and
04:12 he'd walk into United's team but they just couldn't afford him. That's the reality of life
04:18 in the Premier League and that's been the most frustrating thing for me. When promoter teams
04:23 come up being pumped by a big team like Arsenal who are chasing the Premier League and that sort
04:28 of stuff, that's not a massive shock to me. It's the sort of games when you think the gap should be
04:35 a hell of a lot smaller than it really is and when you realise what these clubs have and what
04:41 they're dealing with and how far United look from them, I think that's the real eye-opener to me.
04:47 Teams like Sheffield United, Liverpool and Burnley, they're not going to be defined by
04:52 losing to Arsenal or being pumped by Newcastle or losing to City or United or whatever.
04:56 It's that sort of mini league at the bottom that they're exclusively competing in and at the minute
05:05 United look quite a way off that even. Ulrich Kimball said it last week, we're in our own mini
05:10 league of maybe six to eight teams but at the minute, we're at the bottom of that as well.
05:14 So that's the biggest thing for me in terms of the gap between what you would describe as,
05:21 with the greatest respect, average Premier League teams and even they seem so far ahead of
05:27 where United are at the minute and that's the biggest concern for me.
05:32 I've been thinking about this for a little while now. I think next year might be a bit of an
05:41 anomaly because Leicester and the size of Leicester and the resources that they have,
05:47 they'll be different. You would expect them to come up this year and re-stabilise and everything
05:53 will be fine and probably back to where they were not a few years ago in terms of winning the league
05:58 but a fairly standard top half Premier League team. But do you think we're in danger of reaching a
06:08 point where we probably have maybe five or six teams just going up and down constantly?
06:17 Yeah, well that's been the Norwich model hasn't it for a few years now. That's what everyone's
06:24 aspired to be like almost which seems a pretty joyless experience for me from the outside where
06:29 you're basically holding your hands up and saying, 'Listen, we're just here to bank the money. We're
06:36 going to go down, we're going to try and come back up again.' And eventually, as they've probably
06:40 shown in the last couple of seasons, there's a sort of expiry date on that isn't there when
06:44 that doesn't become as easy as it possibly has in the past. But yeah, look at United. I mean,
06:49 this is their third season in five in the Premier League. They've banked, everyone knows the figures
06:54 how much a Premier League season's worth, hundreds of millions of pounds. And this season they came
06:59 up and could only afford to spend 20 million quid to compete in the Premier League. So even when you
07:05 are that sort of 'you're your club' if that's the right expression, it still doesn't guarantee you
07:10 anything. I think you're right in Leicester in that they are essentially a Premier League team
07:15 in weight aren't they in terms of the, I know they lost a lot of players but the sort of level of
07:18 their squad still. So their early season championship squad, it must be one of the best
07:24 that's ever been in the second tier. So they'll be the anomaly. But yeah, I think even as you said
07:31 before, the three teams that came up last season are in the bottom three this season. I think that
07:37 will be the sort of norm because the gap, as I said before, even between teams that are lower
07:43 mid-table, the gap between them and the teams that are going to come up is just getting bigger and
07:48 bigger every year. It's frightening. I just don't know how you sort of bridge that at the minute.
07:52 It seems like, I go back to last time when United were in the Prem and they came up and they sort
07:57 of attacked it in a different way. Since then, top teams can name half their squad from the bench.
08:03 Games are now lasting about four and a half hours with more and more time for these top players to
08:10 pick apart. It seems like every sort of little advantage that teams who were coming up could
08:16 have had at one point just seems to be taken away from them bit by bit. I just don't know how,
08:21 apart from doing a Forest and spending £150 million and surviving by a place or whatever
08:27 it was last season, I just don't know how teams are going to do it in the future, how they're
08:32 going to have a chance of surviving. So I think you will have more clubs like Norwich and arguably
08:37 like United who are saying, you know, we're going to come up, we're going to take the money, we're
08:41 not going to be silly with it, which is where Luton as well, you know, on the call as well,
08:46 they've been quite sensible without banking the money and saying, you know what,
08:48 this is about more than just on the pitch, we're going to do a lot with this money.
08:53 But I think they've recruited quite cleverly and they seem to have a real plan as well about how
08:57 to go about things. But I think you'll see more and more clubs who will be saying, listen,
09:02 we're here for the year, we'll take the year's payment, we'll take the parachute payment,
09:05 we'll go down again because the gap is just getting wider and wider every year.
09:11 Mike, I'm going to bring you in because we're all a bit doom and gloom here.
09:14 Your experience is a little bit different, we should say, you know, Danny and I and Sheffie
09:24 and I, the fans, had that kind of return and the joyful return four years ago or whatever it was.
09:32 And so the big gap that Luton Town had in between, you know, since the last time they were
09:39 in the top flight, means that I think the novelty factor is still there with you, is that fair
09:47 enough? Despite results, everybody's probably still enjoying themselves that little bit more,
09:52 I would have thought, than probably Sheffie United and Burnley fans.
09:56 Definitely, I mean, yeah, the novelty factor. They ended up at Villa Park yesterday and when
10:01 they scored, well, they didn't really score, it was an own goal. The scenes in the way end
10:06 were brilliant for that goal. Yeah, I think it's still there. I mean, I remember sort of,
10:11 I was doing this job, covering them in the conference for five years, so I was going to
10:14 places like Barrow, Southport, Gateshead on a regular basis on a midweek as well. So going to
10:19 places like Villa and Chelsea and that kind of stuff, I mean, and for the fans as well so far.
10:25 Everyone is still enjoying it and the fact at the moment, I mean, they're obviously third bottom,
10:30 but still in with a shout of staying up. I mean, I know they've only won once so far,
10:36 but they have got that win, got a couple of points as well against Wolves and they got a great draw
10:41 against Forest last week. And they're not really, I think only in three of the games so far, have
10:47 they lost by more than a goal. So, I mean, although they are obviously being outclassed and I mean,
10:52 the level of position is amazing that come out against this season so far, they're still in the
10:58 games. I mean, Spurs, that was only one at Kenilworth Road a couple of weeks back. So,
11:03 I think people are enjoying because obviously they've been in the top flight before, but the
11:07 fact that the games go there now and that kind of the fans who have, the new age fans really,
11:12 who didn't go to those games in the past, are getting to go to these grounds and the way ends,
11:16 I mean, they're sold out, they're staying every, they're staying to the end, they're giving the
11:20 players great receptions after the matches. The expectancy isn't really to, the hope is to stay
11:26 up, whether they expect or not is a different story. But I think everyone is just actually
11:31 trying to enjoy this season and I think they're going to as well.
11:34 And to be fair as well, as Danny touched on there,
11:38 I know the seat that the new stadium was in, was in the offering anyway. This is, this money that's
11:46 coming in has been a huge help in terms of funding that and I suppose making sure that whilst that is
12:12 being funded, there's enough money to keep the playing side of things ticking along as well.
12:16 Even if Shoot Looting do go down this year, it's been well worth it, hasn't it? Whereas United
12:26 fans might think, you know what, we might have been better off just, actually I'm wrong in that
12:31 point because if United hadn't have gone up, goodness knows financially what state they were
12:35 going to be in. So that was a necessity. But the idea of coming up for the money
12:41 and using it wisely is not the worst idea, really is it?
12:47 No, I mean, it's been absolutely crucial this for the club because I think they've got the
12:52 £100 million for coming up and I think they've maybe sort of saved about £25 million of that
12:56 to go on the new stadium. And so before, if they hadn't have gone up, they'd have had to find that
13:00 money, maybe take loans or do certain things like that. So this way it's pretty much said,
13:05 right, you come up for a season, now your ground is financed. You can go and buy it once it's all
13:09 sorted and everything, all the planning is done and everything, you can now go and pay for it.
13:13 I think since COVID and stuff, I mean, costs have gone up, they've had other things have come in
13:18 and it's been a struggle to actually, they would have wanted to be in the ground by now, I think,
13:22 had that not happened. But because now they've got the money, so someone's just given them the
13:26 money really to go and build the ground, which is fantastic. Plus they had to spend up to almost
13:31 £15 million on Kenilworth Road to get that ready for the Premier League because they couldn't have
13:35 hosted matches there. So almost half the money has gone on infrastructure really so far. I mean,
13:40 I think they've spent under £20 million on the squad, maybe brought 12 or 13 players in, who,
13:46 again, if they do go down and they can keep hold of them, are really good championship players to
13:50 come back up again. So yeah, I mean, the money, I know coming up for the money is a thing, but
13:55 to actually get the ground sorted and Kenilworth Road as well, I think it's been brilliant for
14:00 Looney to have that and not have to find that money or borrow that money. They've now got it,
14:05 plus parachute payments they're going to get for the next two years as well, means that they can
14:09 add to the stadium or spend it on the squad as well. So it has been a really good thing for them
14:14 to come up. I think that's such an important part as well, Chris, if I can just jump in there,
14:18 in terms of there has to be some sort of legacy from this Premier League experience and Sheffield
14:24 out here, to be fair, have not sort of had that. I think we've spoken before about, again, three of
14:29 the last five seasons in the Prem, the untold millions that they've earned from that. You look
14:34 around and there's nothing really to show for it. The ground is fundamentally the same. There'll
14:38 have been the odd sort of liquor paint here and there and the odd upgrade, I'm sure.
14:41 Yeah, it's been cosmetic. The changes have been cosmetic, haven't they?
14:45 Yeah. The training ground, again, pretty much the same. We're still getting,
14:50 you know, training in the same building. We've got a new pitch there, but that was taken out of
14:53 Paul Hickey Bottom's transfer budget. He sacrificed some of his transfer cash for that.
14:58 We were to have that put in. You look around and you sort of think, where's the sort of legacy from
15:02 that two years in the Prem? What has it earned the club? You can look at it and say, in fairness,
15:08 the club did shell out £100 million last time in players, but there's no sort of tangible,
15:14 long-term benefit from that time in the Prem. We go back to Leicester, look at their training
15:18 ground. I mean, well, that's the sort of thing you look at and you say, this is what we're doing
15:23 it for. This is the sort of long-term benefit for the club. Whereas United have not sort of had that
15:29 tangible thing to point out and say, this is what we were doing it for. Whereas, obviously,
15:33 we're looting this new ground and everything like that. They can look at that and say,
15:38 that season might have ended in relegation. It might do it, it might not. We don't know that
15:41 yet. But if it does, this is what it was all for. This is what it's all about. So,
15:47 yeah, I think that's a good way to look at it. If it is sacrificing a few million quid for a
15:54 striker or whatever, if it's going towards something that's going to really help the
15:59 club in the long term, I think that's a fair way of looking at it. How have you found the step-up
16:09 in terms of just the quality, the difference in quality?
16:16 It's absolutely massive. I've not watched Premier League football live before really,
16:22 because I haven't had to. So, you go to these games and you just notice the difference. When
16:28 the Premier League teams have got the ball, they're so quick. If Luton try and press them,
16:35 the way they pass it around is like... I think the manager said it earlier, but once you're
16:39 actually there watching it, you just notice these players. Even someone like Raheem Sterling,
16:43 who wasn't particularly good before the game, he just ran the show. Just the way they can get the
16:50 ball, move it. If Luton try and press them, they just can knock it around them and they're up the
16:55 pit straight away. So, these players who you just watch now, like the Madisons and Son and players
17:01 that you've just seen on TV really, watching an actual game live compared to what we've been used
17:07 to in the last decade or so of doing it, it's just a different league that they're in now.
17:14 So, the fact they're still competing and they're still not doing too bad in the games is a real
17:20 boost. I think Danny makes the biggest point there. You expect Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool,
17:28 Arsenal, you expect from those players that they're going to pass the ball around you and
17:35 do the most outrageous things. But whenever you see it from Forrest and Everton and Crystal Palace
17:44 and whoever else, it really makes you think to yourself, it really hammers home just how
17:53 difficult and how competitive it is in trying to match up with teams who, in your own head,
18:02 you think, 'We can get at them. We can pick something up here.' And then you actually
18:09 come up against them and you're like, 'God, they're good, aren't they?'
18:12 Even Wolves, at the start of the season, you'd say, 'Oh, probably Wolves at home,
18:18 no chance to get a win there.' They've got 50 million players. They've got some real class.
18:24 For Everton, they could have scored quite a few but didn't in the end.
18:28 So, even the teams that people beforehand would go, 'Oh, yeah, we could maybe get something there.'
18:34 When the actual game starts, you realise, 'Hang on, they've got great players as well.'
18:38 And they're spending 25 million on players, which is more than the entire Luton squad.
18:43 Obviously, people thought as well Kenilworth Road was going to be a fortress. That hasn't
18:48 happened yet either because these players, they play all around the world. They're not
18:52 going to be too bothered about playing at a smallish ground than usual. So, it's just
18:59 different and the teams you think you're going to beat are still pretty good.
19:03 Before we get to the end, I just want to talk about the more controversial aspects of it.
19:13 Have you found yourself frustrated by one, very good footballers flinging themselves on the ground,
19:24 absolutely needlessly, and VAR?
19:27 VAR has been, there's been a few instances, there's a couple of handballs that Luton didn't
19:35 get at the start of the season, which they were hoping that VAR then didn't give them either.
19:40 Since then, it's not really affected Luton's games too much, I've got to admit. It came down
19:47 in their favour for a goal, I think, when they played Spurs. There hasn't really been too many
19:55 incidents of VAR. There was a long check in the Everton game, which took about two minutes or so,
20:00 which was frustrating, obviously, to be a part of. But it's not really affected them too much.
20:07 As for throwing themselves on the floor, that does happen quite a lot, but that's filtered down
20:13 for the Championship. That was the same last year, a defender just has to get a touch and they go
20:18 over and get a free kick. That's not been too bad, really. Those kinds of things are there,
20:28 but it's not really affected Luton too much so far this season. There's been a lot of
20:31 controversy elsewhere, but not really for the Hatters so far.
20:35 You just have the time of your life, mate, don't you?
20:37 Apart from the parking, I thought the parking would be much better on the
20:43 Premier League ground. You don't get any more space, food's great, the view is good.
20:52 At the moment, I've not got too many complaints.
20:56 Danny, you do have complaints, don't you?
21:01 How long have they gone? I think it's just that, with respect, once you see this a bit more,
21:11 if that makes sense. I don't mean to demean Luton by any stretch by saying that, but I think once
21:16 the novelty wears off a little bit, then I think the shiners wear off a little bit as well of the
21:23 Premier League. But just going back to your point before about the physicality, it was ramped home
21:27 to me when United played their first game of the first season last time and Bournemouth had
21:31 Philip Billing of all people. Bournemouth, with respect to United, not the sort of glamour team
21:38 that you would expect to play, not the sort of glamour player you'd pick out as well, but he was
21:42 absolutely massive. Seeing him close up, you thought, this is what the Premier League is all
21:49 about here. This is what we're up against now. General grounds about the Premier League. VAR,
21:56 I was quite in favour for it. I keep getting reminded about that on a regular basis on
22:01 social media. I thought that it would even things out for teams like Sheffield United and Luton and
22:07 Burnley. Again, saying that with all due respect. But whether it's been good for the game or not,
22:14 people have their own opinions on that. For me, it's just the general, and Mike, you might have
22:21 seen this with Luton again, just the general sort of disrespect to teams that are not top six, top
22:26 ten standard. We've talked about it before, Chris, the whole Sheffield thing in that teams
22:32 are pundits and managers can't even get the team's name right. They just assume that we are a one
22:38 team city when we're obviously not. It's the age in which we live in, in an immediate dump
22:43 nearly society where people have hours and hours of airtime that need filling and they're being
22:53 filled by people who can't possibly know everything that's going on. We saw somebody like Gabby
23:00 Abong Lahore completely diminishing Sheffield United at the weekend there by saying I could
23:06 get in that team. There's no context there, there's no nuance. He doesn't have a clue what is going on
23:12 behind the scenes. He doesn't know the fact that Paul Higginbottom has started this season with his
23:17 hands tied behind his back. It's just nonsense. I'm sure Mike, you've seen this as well, that
23:24 there's been a little bit of, we've unwittingly patronised you probably. We're going to wrap it
23:29 up there. Thanks very much both of you for joining. I think we've come to the conclusion that
23:33 Sheffield is grumpier than Luton. Maybe we'll revisit that at the end of the season. Mike,
23:41 thanks for joining us. And to Danny, thanks everyone for watching and listening. We'll be
23:46 back again next week with a lot more of EFL-friendly Everything But The Prem. Thanks a lot.