World Cup Fever | How Cricket has survived the test of time on the India-Pakistan Diplomatic Turf

last year

Former Indian Ambassador to Pakistan and Author Prabhu Dayal shares his memories and experiences while serving as envoy in Pakistan. He tells us HOW diplomacy hasn't had much impact on cricket between the two nations. Indranil Basu, Senior Sports Journalist also shares his view on WHY it is important for both the nations to keep playing. Watch The WHYs and The HOWs with Pankaj Mishra on One India.

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~ED.155~HT.99~

Transcript

00:00 Cricket could have been something that would have brought us very close together.

00:05 Unfortunately, Pakistan is a country which engages in the policy of state-sponsored terrorism.

00:12 Pakistan is not a democracy.

00:14 Prime Minister is a puppet.

00:15 At the time that I was in Karachi, a lot of Pakistani artists used to come and perform in India.

00:22 But Indian artists were not allowed to go to Pakistan.

00:26 Lata Mangeshkar would have filled the Karachi stadium if she had performed there.

00:30 The Pakistan High Commission in India is a den of spies.

00:35 They carry out a lot of anti-India activities from within that premises of the High Commission.

00:41 My cricketing memories in Pakistan.

00:43 At that time, there were no neutral umpires.

00:46 The Pakistani umpires used to conduct the matches between India and Pakistan.

00:52 And their decisions were always biased.

00:55 It used to be said that the Indian team was playing against 13 members in the Pakistani team.

01:02 11 players and 2 Pakistani umpires.

01:04 I would receive a telephone call saying, "Mr. Dayal, you will be assassinated today."

01:10 Hello there! Big day, big day, Saturday, 14th of October is the day when India takes on Pakistan.

01:17 And needless to say, the kind of adrenaline it generates, the kind of atmosphere it creates.

01:23 No matter the match is being played in the western part of the country, in Ahmedabad.

01:27 But trust me, from Kashmir to Kanyakumari and from Ahmedabad to Shillong to the far eastern part of the country, everyone watches the match.

01:37 But today, we are not going to discuss the merits of the match.

01:40 Because of that, obviously there are lots of publications, lots of TV channels.

01:44 But what we are going to discuss today is the journey of Pakistan and India as two neighbours as far as cricket is concerned.

01:54 And to discuss that further, to discuss that in all its spirit, who better than former ambassador Prabhu Dayal, who joins us from Gurgaon.

02:05 And needless to say, Indranil Basu, whom you see quite often on several TV channels.

02:11 Once again, a senior cricket journalist has travelled to Pakistan.

02:15 Both Ambassador Dayal and Indranil have been there.

02:18 Ambassador Dayal, we would hear it from him.

02:20 He has written a book also while being in Pakistan.

02:24 And Indranil has all his sporting experiences that he would share.

02:29 The reason to bring both of them together is to discuss cricket and diplomacy.

02:34 Ambassador Dayal, beginning with you, since you have served there and also a lot of fond memories,

02:40 please take us through the several aspects that you saw both the nations traversing and also taking cricket along with them.

02:52 Well, you know, cricket could have been something that would have brought us very close together.

03:00 It's a sport which both Indians and Pakistanis love.

03:05 Unfortunately, the political relationship has drifted from bad to worse.

03:15 And a major factor for that is that Pakistan engages in a policy of state-sponsored terrorism.

03:26 Now, when there is a country which is directing terrorist activities against you, it sours the atmosphere.

03:38 And it becomes difficult to widen people-to-people contacts.

03:45 Sporting relations are part of people-to-people contacts.

03:50 Now, you know, in many countries of the world where I was posted, we used to take up with their foreign offices

03:57 this whole issue of terrorism from Pakistan hurting us and the various terrorist attacks.

04:04 And they would say that, look, if you consider Pakistan as a country which is directing terrorist activities against you,

04:16 then why are you playing cricket with them? Why are you playing hockey with them? Boycott them.

04:24 Now, I used to, of course, defend whatever we were doing. If you were playing cricket, I would say that, well,

04:32 the intention of the government of India is and always has been to widen people-to-people relations.

04:39 You know, at the time that I was in Karachi, a lot of Pakistani artists used to come and perform in India.

04:47 Mehdi Hasan, Wala Mali, Abda Parveen, you name it. They have all been very, very popular here in India.

04:57 And they gave a number of performances. But Indian artists were not allowed to go to Pakistan.

05:03 Lata Mangeshkar would have filled the Karachi stadium if she had performed there. But she was not allowed to go there.

05:09 However, the Pakistanis did encourage the cricketing relationship and the hockey-related relationship.

05:20 Even then, on the cricket field, I used to find that as the Pakistani audience would see it, it was war.

05:30 A cricket match between India and Pakistan was not seen as a friendly engagement intended to widen the bilateral relationship.

05:41 The Pakistani audience treated it, even then, as war. Now, we come to this situation where now, with Pakistan,

05:52 we do not have a full diplomatic relationship. We have the diplomatic relationship at the level of the Shahjahan Affairs.

06:01 The acting High Commissioners. The High Commissioner of Pakistan in India was recalled by Pakistan.

06:11 And then we also recalled our High Commissioner. So we don't have High Commissioners.

06:15 Now, if the relationship is so embittered because of Pakistan's state-sponsored terrorism,

06:25 I do not see any possibility of the relationship becoming any better in the near future.

06:33 In fact, I have been consistently of the view that we should cease to have any bilateral contacts with Pakistan.

06:44 In fact, the Pakistan High Commission in India is a den of spies. They carry out a lot of anti-India activities

06:55 from within that premises of the High Commission. And I am one who has been saying that we should ask the Pakistanis

07:03 to close their diplomatic establishment. We should then simultaneously close our High Commission in Islamabad

07:11 and then cease to have any sort of bilateral contact. Of course, if the Pakistanis stop waging terrorist war against us,

07:23 if they stop carrying out this covert terrorist state-sponsored activity, then we should rethink it.

07:33 But you know, politics and sport cannot be disconnected. Sporting relationships are a part of the political relationship.

07:43 And since the political relationship is now unfortunately so bad, my view is we should stop all bilateral contacts

07:54 regardless of how fond I am of cricket, how fond I used to be of seeing the India-Pakistan cricket matches,

08:01 how fond I was of some of the Pakistani cricketers themselves. But because of the overall nature of the bilateral relationship,

08:10 we have to review whatever our approach has been and just stop having any contacts bilaterally, diplomatically,

08:20 as far as art and music, sport, any sort of contact and wait for the Pakistanis to mend their ways.

08:27 I absolutely endorse Dial Sahib's view and we should not pursue any bilateral ties with Pakistan.

08:36 This World Cup is unavoidable. This is a world event. We have to welcome them and the soldiers are being sacrificed at the border.

08:45 I think it's absolutely... A lot of people, when I talk to a lot of audience, young audience, youngsters,

08:53 who are between in their early 20s, they are not in favour of playing against Pakistan.

08:59 So here Pakistan is losing all that glitter, whatever they could get.

09:05 The way we appreciate art, sports, we love everything, but this kind of activities, when it happens at the border,

09:13 it leaves a very bad taste inside your mouth. And that's why I always felt this was an unavoidable circumstance

09:21 when the World Cup is happening at home. They are coming here and the good thing is we are a better team on paper.

09:28 We can beat them again and we do it. So it's going to be 8-0 this time.

09:33 Right. Ambassador Dayal, now talking about the times which we are in right now,

09:40 we have seen India under several leaderships, not just the BJP, Prime Minister Modi, but earlier as well,

09:50 there have been incidents, say after 26-11 when IPL had just come into being,

09:57 after some time, the Pakistani players were thrown out of the IPL series because of match-fixing charges.

10:06 But at that particular point of time, there were voices in 2008-2009 also that whether Pakistani players should play in IPL or not.

10:14 But at that time, whether it was a lenient diplomacy, whether it was the need of the hour, they were included.

10:20 Secondly, now also we see there are the opinions are divided as far as this particular World Cup is concerned,

10:26 the kind of reception that the Pakistani players are receiving in the hotels.

10:32 Internet is divided saying why are we showering petals on them? How do you view this?

10:37 And how does diplomacy navigate through these lines? Well, first of all, let me state that I agree entirely with what Mr. Basu said.

10:49 We cannot stop playing Pakistan in multilateral tournaments.

10:56 The World Cup is a tournament which involves many nations.

11:01 And if we are pitted against Pakistan in any match in such a tournament, we cannot say that we won't play you

11:10 because, you know, that would be highly disadvantageous to our own team's interests and we would be losing valuable points.

11:19 But we have to differentiate between multilateral tournaments and direct bilateral cricketing relations.

11:29 I'm opposed to not having the bilateral cricketing relationship. No bilateral tours.

11:36 They used to be. I witnessed two of them in my time. 82R team went again in 84.

11:42 Mr. Basu has toured with the Indian cricket team in 2000. So the bilateral contact should stop.

11:51 But as regards international tournaments, the World Cup T20 or the World Cup 50 overs, we should play against Pakistan if the schedule show requires us to.

12:07 There is a difference between the bilateral aspect and the multilateral aspect.

12:11 Now, how do I see the issue of, say, Pakistani participation in the IPL, which is something you mentioned?

12:23 I am not in favor of allowing the Pakistanis to come and play in our tournament because that again would be facilitating a bilateral sort of contact.

12:34 And if we are excluding them, we are sending across a message to the Pakistanis that, look, we are excluding your players because of the terrorist activities in which your country engages in.

12:51 You know, Pakistan is a country which engages in the policy of state sponsored terrorism. Pakistan is not a democracy.

13:01 The prime minister is a puppet. The real power is wielded by what is called the deep state of Pakistan.

13:11 And the deep state comprises the army and the ISI. They are the ones who call the shots.

13:19 And they sponsor terrorism directed against India. How do they do it? You know, there are these nefarious outfits like Rashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammad, Ismail-Mujahideen,

13:36 which recruit the products coming out of the Pakistani madrasas. These madrasas indoctrinate these young children to thinking that India is their enemy.

13:48 And that if they kill Indians, then they will go to heaven. There is such nefarious, you know, indoctrination which goes on.

13:57 They look at their textbooks. You know, they are horrendous. Now, such people who come out of these madrasas are people who are picked up by these, the ISI and the army.

14:10 And they are given training in terrorist activities, how to handle weapons. Where do they get the weapons from?

14:18 They are given these weapons by the Pakistani establishment, by the ISI, the army. Now, hold on. Just one thing.

14:26 And then they are directed against India. And the army doesn't want to stop this because it poses as the big defender of Pakistani interests.

14:37 It poses as the power which is trying to pursue Pakistan's policy of arresting away Kashmir from India and handing it to Pakistan.

14:47 So, all this is so politically bad, wicked, that the effects on sporting relationship are bound to be there.

14:57 So, for this reason, I feel that no direct bilateral sporting links or any people to people contacts.

15:06 Right. So, we have seen Ambassador Dayal, as you rightly mentioned, that bilateral sports links are a strict no-no. We haven't seen that.

15:15 Dada, we have seen a few at neutral locations, but that has been a triangular contest, you know, multiple events.

15:23 In 2011, when the World Cup happened, we had the sub-continental competition where Sri Lanka was involved.

15:34 Do you think that Pakistan should get the matches outside India? Is the foreign leadership in these multinational countries?

15:44 That's what we do. Next time, I think they will be hosting some champions trophy next year.

15:49 That's what being scheduled. Pakistan is supposed to host India. India is never going to go.

15:54 I'll tell you something, MS Dhoni, when he was captain of the side, he never wanted to go and play in Pakistan.

15:59 In fact, Pakistan cricket board chairman, when the team was coming, he made a very silly comment.

16:05 He said, "Dushman desh mein jaa rahe ho aap." You know, that's sort of, I mean, that's how they treat India.

16:11 I mean, they are absolutely backward in their thinking, the way they think.

16:15 We are the ones, we are so liberal, we are so forthcoming, we love exchanging culture.

16:23 Look at the Pakistani singers, they used to come here, they used to make tons of money.

16:27 And then a few of them were caught at the airport, you know, getting illegally, taking money out of India.

16:35 So they are, I mean, why do you think before all this happened, 2009, what they did in the England tour,

16:42 these Pakistani were charged of spot fixing.

16:46 And thereafter, the IPL franchise owner said, "We want every player from every nation except from Pakistan."

16:53 So, you know, that, it's a stigma. It's a stigma there.

16:57 Even in the UK, when they're honking, they abuse you like that.

17:01 I don't want to take that name, but it's actually a stigma.

17:05 I mean, the way they have behaved over the years, even fortunately, some of the cricketers are good,

17:09 but deep down inside, they still carry that hatred.

17:12 Look at the coach of Vaka Unes whenever he's spoken about India, he's spoken all negative things about India.

17:18 And now that he's come to India, or Wasim Akram, they are very diplomatically,

17:24 they try to sound very positive.

17:28 They try taking out comments which are not anti-Indian, but the moment they leave the Indian shore,

17:35 they are absolutely anti-Indian. We never speak like that.

17:39 We love our sport. We love music.

17:42 You know, I mean, Mehendi Hassan, Payal sir mentioned that name.

17:46 There are so many followers of his ghazal.

17:50 I mean, just imagine how we love, embrace cultural exchange.

17:55 And Pakistan, they only lose out. We have nothing.

17:58 And when none of the teams were going there, they accused us of stalling those tours of foreign teams to Pakistan.

18:06 That's the kind of thinking they have inside them.

18:11 I mean, you can't change them. You can make a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink.

18:15 Absolutely. See, I mean, this has been their ploy.

18:18 Mazda Dayal would know it better that how a crisis, you know, they always try to turn it around

18:25 and use it to their advantage, saying India is doing this and they are doing that.

18:29 And that's what they are. Obviously, you know, as we speak, there is another crisis that is unfolding in the Middle East and part of the world.

18:36 And that is about Israel and the Palestine war.

18:42 Now, in that scenario, also, Israel has made this time. It is very clear that it is not necessary that a terror victim country would be supposed or would be expected to show humanity.

18:54 All the time. This time around, the war is up to and to the finish.

18:59 Do you believe that this particular Indian dispensation as of now, the approach that we are not going to play cricket and as you mentioned,

19:07 all people to be in contact should also be removed by closing the diplomatic enclaves there.

19:14 Do you believe that's the next step forward in the days to come?

19:18 You know, we should be very firm in the message that we send to Pakistan. You referred to the Hamas-Israeli conflict.

19:27 Hamas made a huge blunder by carrying out this horrendous terrorist attack because Israel is much, much stronger.

19:37 And Israel will attack Hamas and it will attack the Gaza Strip and make life extremely difficult for the ordinary Palestinian civilians.

19:51 Already we are seeing what is happening there. Now, Pakistan is one of the biggest sponsors of terrorism.

20:01 I wish we could hit it that way. But, you know, the balance is not quite the same as it is between Israel and Palestine.

20:10 Pakistan is a country with a sizable army. We don't want an armed conflict and neither does Pakistan want,

20:20 because that will be extremely expensive for both countries. That is why we have been trying to send across a message through our diplomatic channels.

20:30 Through other friends that Pakistan should stop engaging in terrorism because what is happening is that the biggest sufferer is Pakistan itself.

20:43 Look at how Pakistan has become impoverished. They have no money. Their reserves have run out.

20:50 What has happened? Where has that money gone? It has been spent on these terrorist outfits.

20:57 A lot of the Pakistani budget goes to the defense forces. From the defense forces it is channelized to the terror outfits.

21:07 So, it is money being misused. Money which should go to meet the needs of the people is being spent on terrorism.

21:16 And that is why Pakistan is in this mess. Moreover, terrorist outfits in Pakistan are making life miserable for the Pakistanis themselves.

21:26 Hillary Clinton had told the Pakistanis that if you are keeping snakes in your backyard, slowly the snakes will bite you.

21:34 And that is why terrorist activities within Pakistan have increased considerably.

21:39 I wish that Pakistan would abandon this policy of sponsoring terrorism.

21:49 I wish we could go back to having a sort of a normal relationship which we have always been emphasizing.

21:56 I must mention to you a few things about my cricketing memories in Pakistan.

22:01 At that time there were no neutral umpires.

22:06 The Pakistani umpires used to conduct the matches between India and Pakistan.

22:15 And their decisions were always biased. If the ball would hit the Indian batsman's pad, the Pakistani umpire's finger would go up.

22:26 Even if the ball was missing the stumps, there were no review systems those days.

22:31 So, it used to be said that the Indian team is playing against 13 members in the Pakistani team.

22:40 11 players and 2 Pakistani umpires. Then of course the system of neutral umpires came up.

22:47 These reviews through technology came up. But there is no doubt that there was a huge bias.

22:55 And you know, in the 1982 series, Pakistan beat India. It was impossible to beat Pakistan in Pakistan those days.

23:05 Impossible. Because of the bias compiling.

23:08 But next year in 1983, we won the World Cup. And Pakistanis couldn't believe that.

23:16 The whole of Karachi went into mourning. There was pin drop silence.

23:22 They could not stomach the fact that India had won the World Cup.

23:26 But next year, was it in 1985, early 1985, there was this big tournament in Australia.

23:33 Where India played Pakistan in the final.

23:38 And again the Pakistanis were sure that they are going to beat us and all.

23:42 But we beat them in the final. In fact, we gave them a solid drubbing.

23:46 And Ravi Shastri of course won the champion of champions trophy.

23:51 And he got a very nice Audi car. The Pakistanis were horrified.

23:55 They could not take defeat. So, they have to learn to take defeat.

23:59 This is after all a sport. The whole nature of the relationship has to change.

24:06 But I don't see it as changing in the near future.

24:10 Right. You know, the anecdotes that you share, Ambassador Dayal, are true.

24:17 I don't think that we can see the different perspectives all together.

24:21 But talking about different perspectives, Dada, you being a cricket member and you being a British,

24:26 you have travelled to Pakistan also and you have travelled all across India also.

24:30 When it comes to food, what preferences do you make when you go to Pakistan?

24:34 Well, we expected a lot. In fact, first time I landed in Lahore, I went to this place called Food Street.

24:41 Which was quite a talking point there. I am the first one to in fact write for Pioneer Newspaper where I was working in 2004.

24:49 And I wrote some wonderful columns about how the food is going to be yummy and things like that.

24:55 And initially it was all non-veg packets which were getting wiped out completely from the press box.

25:02 And then few days later when everyone started getting stomach upset because of the cooking medium.

25:06 I don't know which cooking medium was used that time. The vegetarian packets started disappearing.

25:11 So that was the story. But yes, I was definitely into the umpiring those days.

25:16 One name which comes straight to my mind is Shakur Rana.

25:20 So I would definitely recall that name. Someone who really took everything as if he was the master of the game.

25:29 And the way he decided stuff on the pitch. Anything which would hit the pad would be adjudicated as leg before wicket.

25:37 There was no discipline. But now there is so much of transparency, so much of honesty.

25:44 You know, cricket I believe is played on three principles.

25:47 Honesty is one, hard work and third is confidence.

25:52 And Indians have it in plenty. And that's why they are the world champions and the world leaders.

25:56 The entire world look up to India. I mean we may not have won the World Cup for last 10 years or any ICC event.

26:02 But we are a champion side. Because we are driving world cricket money wise.

26:07 We are also driving world cricket talent wise, facility wise.

26:11 The entire world look up to India. Australia, they come here and look up to India.

26:15 Virat Kohli, Rohit Sharma. The English players come and look up to our Indian.

26:19 We have the best T20 league. We have the best in the world.

26:22 And Pakistan, as sir said, can't stomach that all the time.

26:26 Right. Ambassador Dayal, obviously before we come to the Karachi Halwa, the book that you have written.

26:33 One thing that came to my mind is the fact that when it comes to say diplomacy or strained ties between two countries.

26:42 We have an example of United States and China. Both of them don't see eye to eye till date.

26:48 But still they manage to, you know, have some sort of confidence when global events are happening.

26:54 Ping pong diplomacy was used. Table tennis games were organized between them.

27:00 And it worked. But in case of India, cricket hasn't been able to, you know, break that ice.

27:06 Obviously one reason being the terror. Do you believe that India is extending a long rope to Pakistan

27:11 as far as mending the ties is concerned?

27:13 We had been extending a long rope. But I think we have stopped doing that.

27:20 We have sent across a clear message to Pakistan that unless they stop this policy of state-sponsored terrorism,

27:30 we are not going to have a normal relationship. This message has gone across very clearly.

27:37 Now let's go back to the ping pong diplomacy between United States and China.

27:45 It was the brainchild of Henry Kissinger. And he thought that the Chinese could be won over

27:54 and their way of thinking could be changed. And so he engaged in that policy.

27:59 But you know, what happened was that the United States industry located a lot of its manufacturing facilities

28:10 slowly and slowly in China because of cheaper labor. And the Chinese economy got strengthened.

28:19 And now what has happened is that China is challenging the dominance of the United States.

28:26 So while the ping pong diplomacy was intended to improve the relationship,

28:34 what has happened is that it has ended up in giving China a more aggressive posture.

28:43 China is an expansionist power. Territorial expansion because the entire Indian Ocean region

28:52 is seen by China as its area of influence. And then economic expansion.

28:58 Chinese initiatives like the Belt and Road Initiative and this China-Pakistan Economic Corridor

29:07 and several others have ended up in making countries bankrupt. Look at what happened to Sri Lanka.

29:15 Look at what has happened to Pakistan. So the Chinese are playing a very mischievous role.

29:21 They are using checkbook diplomacy. But how did they become so rich?

29:26 It was the United States which enriched China. And now everybody is paying the price for that.

29:34 So I think the ping pong diplomacy really didn't benefit the United States as Henry Kissinger had thought it would.

29:42 And therefore, we have to be a little careful when we think about cricket diplomacy.

29:47 Since you mentioned Henry Kissinger, Ambassador Dayal, I remember when he was serving as Secretary of State

29:53 under the leadership of President Nixon, he had once said that if you are an enemy of the United States,

30:01 then it's dangerous for you. But if you are a friend of the United States, then it's fatal.

30:05 And that thing, what played out just now in Israel also, many experts are saying that, you know,

30:12 Israel needs to tread these paths cautiously when a third party enters into your own dispute.

30:17 Inderdeep, before I go back to Prabhusar for a final comment on his days being there, what food he liked there,

30:26 being a vegetarian, how did he manage to make his culinary skills improve, and also the book.

30:36 I wanted to know from you, India is playing tomorrow, obviously, bright chances, huge stadium also in Ahmedabad,

30:45 and there is a Modi Stadium. What are you fencing? What is one critical aspect that India should keep in mind when they hit the ground?

30:52 I think everything is in place for India as far as preparation for this World Cup is concerned.

30:59 We have beaten Pakistan in Asia Cup, and we have won the Asia Cup.

31:03 And Pakistanis are actually quite worried and unhappy because they couldn't win the Asia Cup.

31:08 Not because they couldn't win the Asia Cup, because they were beaten by India.

31:11 So that's the kind of mindset they have, you know, and Indians…

31:15 And how?

31:16 I mean, we didn't know how. And India's temper is absolutely brilliant.

31:20 I mean, you see, you have ticked all the boxes. We have the right mix of youth and experience.

31:25 We have only probably one thing which is missing on the team is not having a left-arm Seema.

31:30 Otherwise, our bowling, our batting, our middle-order, our fielding, everything is just about perfect.

31:36 It's a perfect stage for us to go out there and express ourselves.

31:40 We have the right kind of depth. We have the right kind of balance.

31:44 All the good adjectives you can think of which you can associate with a good team, Indian team has that.

31:51 If they can't win from here on, I'm going to quit covering cricket, I think.

31:56 Please don't do that. Stay with us. Stay with cricket and stay with sports.

32:00 Sports needs you as much as the viewers also need you.

32:04 Ambassador Dayal, final question to you. I know the evening is about to descend upon us.

32:09 How is it living in Pakistan?

32:14 If you could share your experience from a common man's point of view.

32:19 I mean, I would just mention here, when Imran Khan came to play in India for the first time again in the 80s,

32:25 he told that he was surprised to see that people don't have horns on their head here in India.

32:31 That is the kind of, I have never crossed the border. I have never, I have been to Wagah, but not beyond that.

32:37 Please share with us. How is your experience?

32:41 You know, I found that Pakistani children, right from a young age,

32:49 were being indoctrinated through their textbooks to hate India.

32:57 In fact, you referred to my book, Karachi Halwa, in which I have described my experiences

33:06 during my three and a half year stay there. I've covered everything.

33:10 The cricketing relationship, Bollywood and how it was received or abandoned Pakistan.

33:17 Pakistani poets, the big Urdu poetry sessions, the musicians, all aspects, the political relationship.

33:28 And I have included one chapter called the curriculum of hatred.

33:34 Because right from a young age, if children are taught their history in such a manner

33:45 that they hate Indians, then naturally they will grow up only thinking that Indians are devils

33:53 and that they must attack Indians physically and try to kill Indians.

34:01 This is the way that they are brought up to think. It's very unfortunate.

34:06 I myself received death threats when I was in Pakistan.

34:11 I would receive a telephone call saying, Mr. Dayal, you will be assassinated tonight.

34:20 So, of course, we used to alert the security and so on and so forth. But the atmosphere was very foul.

34:28 And around that time, the Deputy High Commissioner based in Birmingham, whose name was Rabindra Mahatre,

34:37 was assassinated by Pakistani agents. So, it was all a very dangerous period.

34:45 And the Pakistanis were up to no good then and they're up to no good now. So, this spoils the atmospherics.

34:54 And unless the Pakistanis can change their approach, you know, even within Pakistan,

35:00 there are many institutes and many scholars who have been cautioning the government against promoting so much hatred against India

35:11 because that is counterproductive to what the Pakistanis are trying to achieve.

35:17 But I don't see any major change happening in the near future. We would have to live with the reality of a very hostile Pakistan.

35:26 The Pakistanis are beginning to realize that this policy which they have been pursuing towards India has got them nowhere.

35:34 Even Shahbaz Sharif, after becoming Prime Minister, said that, you know, he would like to review this whole thing

35:41 and why are we having this sort of a relationship. But he was silenced by the Pakistani establishment

35:48 and he had to withdraw whatever he said. And he said, oh, the first Kashmir issue has to be resolved, etc. etc.

35:54 But the fact is that Pakistanis are beginning to realize that this policy of trying to hate India and cultivating hatred towards India

36:03 is very negative and it is not getting them anywhere. And that I, of course, look forward to a time when things change.

36:11 Gulo mein rang bhare, baad hai nau bahar chale. A new wave should flow, coloring the flowers all around and all that.

36:18 But that's not going to happen in my lifetime. I don't see it happening any time near future.

36:24 But the biggest sufferers are the Pakistanis. Indeed, indeed, by all means.

36:30 The kind of government changes are also happening there. Leadership change and everything.

36:34 Quite a politically tumultuous year this has been for them. Ambassador Dayal, thank you so much for speaking to us

36:40 and bringing us knowledge and also bringing us up to speed with what transpired beyond the boundaries.

36:47 And Indranil, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Great meeting you. Thank you.

36:53 Thank you. I look forward to the match tomorrow. Yes, all the very best to our men in blue.

37:00 Thank you, gentlemen, for taking the time. Thank you. Pleasure.

World Cup Fever | How Cricket has survived the test of time on the India-Pakistan Diplomatic Turf

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