The Scotsman Rugby show with Graham Bean at the RWC in France
The Scotsman Rugby show with Graham Bean at the RWC in France
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00:00 [Music]
00:07 [Music]
00:10 Sorry, I think we got stuck on the button.
00:15 [Laughter]
00:17 But yeah, it won't make any difference.
00:20 [Music]
00:25 [Music]
00:33 Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Scotsman Rugby World Cup show.
00:38 My name is Matthew Elder and we're joined by our rugby correspondent, Graham Bean,
00:42 who's out in France at the moment, covering Scotland at the tournament.
00:46 He's based in Nice today, where you're preparing for the game against Romania this weekend, Graham.
00:53 But how are things looking weather-wise over in France? I can see some blue sky there.
00:59 Yeah, it's lovely here actually, very nice and sunny, as it has been in Nice the whole time we've been here.
01:04 Yeah, it's very nice indeed.
01:07 We're actually leaving Nice tomorrow morning, first thing, to fly up to Lille.
01:12 So we'll be sorry to leave the Côte d'Azur because it's been absolutely wonderful.
01:17 I think it'll be a bit cooler up north. Lille's close to the Belgian border,
01:21 so it's a new city for us all.
01:25 But that's where Scotland play on Saturday evening. They play Romania the next match.
01:30 So it'll be a sad farewell to Nice tomorrow.
01:34 Yep, and we obviously need to look back over last weekend's matches,
01:40 where Scotland got the win they needed against Tonga.
01:45 But that followed quite a bruising encounter the night before.
01:51 South Africa 8, Ireland 13, which was probably a result Scotland weren't really hoping for,
01:57 and that South Africa came away with the losing bonus point as well,
02:03 which kind of leaves Scotland slightly up against it now in terms of how they need to qualify for the quarter-finals,
02:10 if they possibly can, Graham.
02:11 So can you maybe just talk us through what your understanding of the mathematics are?
02:17 Yeah, it's a little complicated, but what it boils down to, and I think it was always going to boil down to this,
02:22 is Scotland need to beat Ireland in the final game.
02:26 But it's more complicated than that.
02:29 First of all, they need to beat Romania with a bonus point, which they should do.
02:32 That's well within their grasp. Romania are by far the weakest team in the group.
02:38 So as I say, that game is on Saturday evening in Lille.
02:41 So they win that, they move on to 10 points if they get the bonus point win.
02:44 So that's still four points behind Ireland.
02:49 So then they go to Paris for this match with Ireland on October 7th, that's a weekend Saturday, at the Stade de France.
02:58 So Scotland need to win that one and also deny Ireland a bonus point in the process.
03:05 So that means keep finish eight points ahead of Ireland and ensure Ireland don't score four tries.
03:14 If that is a scenario that works out, both teams will be on 14 points
03:19 and Scotland would qualify on the head-to-head basis because they've beaten Ireland.
03:26 So it's a tough one. Bearing in mind Scotland haven't beaten Ireland since 2017.
03:31 They've never beaten them while Towne has been head coach.
03:34 So, you know, they've got their work cut out to get out of this group.
03:39 Certainly, yeah, just beat the number one team in the world by eight points or more.
03:44 It always seems to be the Scotland way that we end up in this situation.
03:48 But it sort of boils down to that opening defeat to South Africa, wasn't it?
03:52 They didn't get a bonus point in that game from losing it.
03:55 They were lost by more than eight points and that looks like a good cost for them if they don't get the bonus point against Ireland.
04:03 Yeah, I mean, Scotland came into this World Cup knowing they'd have to beat either South Africa or Ireland to have any chance of qualifying.
04:09 And, you know, South Africa are the holders, number two team in the world, Ireland number one team in the world.
04:14 It was never going to be easy.
04:17 But, you know, the word is a pointy against South Africa, there's no doubt about it.
04:23 And now, you know, they've now got this Ireland game and it's going to be absolutely huge.
04:26 It'll be a great occasion, you know, the start to France, one of the finest stadiums in the world.
04:31 And it's always going to come down to this, but just having to deny, you know, Ireland that bonus point just makes it that bit harder.
04:40 And you do have kind of fears for Scotland around that game.
04:43 But, you know, you never know.
04:46 Yeah, if any Scotland team can do it, you would think this Gregor Townsend team would certainly have a chance.
04:53 They did what was required, as we said, against Tonga.
04:57 They got the bonus point needed as well with that 45-17 win.
05:01 I think that was wrapped up before half time, actually, with the four tries.
05:04 But what did you make of the Scotland performance in that match?
05:08 It was interesting, you know, having watched the Ireland-South Africa game the night before, you know,
05:13 there was such intensity to it.
05:14 And then we got to Nice on Sunday and it was so much more open that game and sort of scrappy.
05:20 There was, you know, mistakes and there was, you know, lots more space available to the players.
05:25 And Scotland managed to run in seven tries.
05:28 And Tonga got a couple as well.
05:29 But it was a really open kind of game of rugby with pretty hit 'em, skin 'em at times.
05:35 And there were some brutal tackles that went in there as well.
05:38 It just, you know, it wasn't the same quality as the previous evening.
05:41 But, you know, Scotland did enough.
05:43 They scored seven tries, seven different try scorers as well.
05:46 So I think overall, you know, you'll be happy with that 45-17 win, bonus point,
05:51 get the campaign up and running after a disappointing first weekend.
05:54 So, yeah, I think overall Scotland management will be fairly pleased with it.
06:01 Yep. And following on from the, obviously, the tackle in the South Africa game that caused controversy
06:09 surrounding Jack Dempsey and the possible red card that was missed there,
06:12 we had another couple of fairly big hits on Scotland players with Jamie Rich obviously needing to be substituted
06:20 after taking a blow to the head. Afusipa Taumapeo, have I said that right, Graham?
06:28 Sounds about right to me, yes.
06:30 Who collided with Richie.
06:34 Obviously, he was shown a yellow card, which was not upgraded to a red by the bunker review system.
06:40 Via Fafita then had another tackle on Finn Russell towards the end of the game,
06:46 which was upgraded to a red card, actually after the full-time whistle, I think.
06:51 So that led to some controversy at the weekend, particularly around the tackle on Jamie Richie,
06:56 where I think most observers are scratching their heads saying, well, how is that not a red card?
07:02 Yeah, it was a terrible tackle. I mean, it was so high.
07:07 I mean, really, I mean, most people thought it should be a straight red card on the field.
07:11 But the referees have been discouraged from doing this. They've been told now, show the yellow card
07:17 and let the bunker officials decide whether it's going to be upgraded to red or not.
07:22 And at the start of the second half, I think people were astonished that Taumapeau was allowed to come back on
07:31 because it was such a high tackle.
07:35 And there was an audible gasp in the ground when he hit Richie because it was just a really kind of nasty collision.
07:44 And it puts Richie's world cup in doubt now.
07:47 You know, it's a 12-day standout period and the reports from Scotland camp are that he's progressing well.
07:53 But, you know, 12 days takes you right to the eve of the Ireland match.
07:57 So whether it's going to be OK to play, we'll have to wait and see.
08:03 It's a huge loss. You don't know who wants to lose their captain ahead of such an important game.
08:08 It's an interesting one, this bunker system, isn't it?
08:10 Where it seems almost the opposite way round to how VAR works in football, where the referee still has a final decision
08:16 and VAR advise, but it seems like the referee in rugby sort of hands that final decision over to the bunker system.
08:23 What's the general feeling amongst those over at the World Cup?
08:26 Do they feel that the system's working?
08:28 No, not at all. I think they've rushed it.
08:31 I think they trialled it in the sort of year going up to the World Cup, but perhaps not thoroughly enough.
08:40 They've brought it in and, as you say, it's taken some responsibility away from the on-field referees
08:45 and it's been given to these kind of anonymous foul play review officers, as they're called,
08:52 who sit in this bunker and decide whether it should be upgraded to red or not.
08:57 They won't reveal the identities of the officials for fear that they'll be abused on social media, I think is the logic behind this.
09:05 But there has to be more transparency.
09:07 We're also not seeing the angles that they're seeing, supposedly.
09:12 I think World Rugby would do themselves a favour and be more open and transparent about how this process is working,
09:18 because if they're seeing angles that we're not, that are justifying some of these decisions,
09:23 why don't they share them with the public and put them through their own media channels?
09:29 Because I think the Ritchie one really has crystallised what's wrong with this system.
09:37 Because nobody I've spoken to over here can understand how that wasn't upgraded to a red card.
09:44 The explanation at the time was that Ritchie had lowered his height limit to tackle,
09:48 but not significantly enough to say it wasn't a red card.
09:54 It was a very poor tackle by the Tongan lawyer.
09:57 Yeah, and this anonymity thing surrounding the referees in the bunker doesn't really make sense.
10:05 When you say the referee on the pitch, there's no anonymity there, unless they're thinking about wearing masks.
10:12 Nor the TMOs, you know, the TMOs have always been named in rugby.
10:17 There's no logic to this at all. It's a very strange business.
10:22 Yeah, and I know Gregor Townsend has spoken against it as well.
10:25 He's not been particularly happy, and rightly so,
10:27 given that Scotland have now been on the end of two wrong decisions, I think, in the eyes of most people.
10:33 Yeah, there was the Jesse Creel one against Jack Dempsey in the game against South Africa,
10:37 as you mentioned there, it was a bad one that just went completely unpunished on the day,
10:43 and there was no retrospective action taken either, which has left a bit of a sour taste for Scotland.
10:50 Yeah. So now it's on to Romania, like we said, this weekend.
10:54 There's been a change in the squad again. Stuart McAnally, who was brought in as cover,
10:58 has ended up unfortunately having to bow out again just as quickly, replaced by Johnny Matthews.
11:05 So do you see Johnny getting some game time against Romania?
11:09 Yeah, definitely. I think he'll probably start on the bench.
11:12 I think Ewan Ashwin will maybe be the starting hooker against Romania.
11:16 But Johnny Matthews will have a big role to play. He could be on for the last half hour or so.
11:21 He had an excellent season with Glasgow last season, really good.
11:24 He was their top try scorer, 13 tries in 19 games.
11:28 Really prolific in his last two seasons at Glasgow, actually.
11:33 He'll bring a lot of energy to the role.
11:36 It's a nice story because he's worked hard. He's had an unusual route to the national side.
11:43 He's played a lot of club rugby and lowered down the leagues in England,
11:46 and then came to Scotland, played for Boroughmuir, was with Edinburgh briefly,
11:50 and then got the contract at Glasgow.
11:52 He's done outstandingly well there at a club where they already have two international hookers,
11:57 George Turner and Fraser Brown. But he's held his own and he deserves this chance.
12:03 Yeah, are you thinking there'll be quite a number of changes to Gregor Townsend's line-up for this one?
12:08 I think so, yeah. I think we'll see some of the players that haven't had any action at all so far.
12:13 Ben Healey, I think we'll probably get a run out at stand-off.
12:17 He'll take the chance to rest Finn Russell for this one.
12:20 There's also Keima Schwartz and Luke Crosby, two outstanding back-row forwards for Edinburgh and Scotland
12:28 that I've not seen a minute of action yet.
12:32 But I think they'll be in line to play this weekend.
12:36 Perhaps Yavin Sebastien, the prop as well, could have an outing.
12:40 So yeah, there'll be a few changes, I think. It's a difficult one.
12:43 You've got to balance between having enough experience and the quality in that team
12:48 to get the bonus point win and also to rest those.
12:52 You want to keep in check for the big game against Ireland in Paris.
12:57 Yeah, looking at Romania's scores in the tournament so far, 76-0 against South Africa, 82-8 against Ireland.
13:05 They got that surprise early try in that one.
13:08 Do you reckon in Scotland they're capable of racking up something similar?
13:11 We'll see. We'll see.
13:14 It should be, really, given that, especially when you think of the back-line Scotland.
13:20 There's three wingers in the squad, Kaz Versteyn, Darcy Graham, and Van der Merwe,
13:26 two of which I imagine will play against Romania.
13:31 It should be great opportunities for these guys to really pile on their tries.
13:38 So we'll see. It's difficult.
13:41 You've got to break these teams down first of all and they'll be obstinate at the start.
13:45 But you look at the last 20 minutes to half an hour, Scotland should be pulling away and piling on the points, hopefully.
13:53 Good stuff. Well, hopefully we'll look forward to a bit of a Scotland try-fest on Saturday.
13:58 Thanks everyone for watching.
14:01 We'll have all the coverage and build-up to Scotland v Romania on scotsman.com.
14:06 Obviously, Graham will be in Lille as well for that match, as he said.
14:09 So tune in over the weekend to the website for all the reaction from that one.
14:15 But for now, Graham, thanks for joining us from Nice and thanks to everyone for watching.
14:19 Thanks.
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