Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Rob Bailey, joined by the Conservative South Thanet MP Craig Mackinlay and Labour Councillor Diccon Spain from Ashford Borough Council.
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00:00 Welcome to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV. I'm Rob Bailey. Tonight, we'll
00:29 take a look at Rishi Sunak's new Green Deal work for Kent. The Prime Minister put himself
00:34 on the side of hard-up families this week as he slowed down the country's race towards
00:38 net zero. It means you will still be able to buy brand new petrol cars and gas boilers
00:43 long after 2030. But an unusual coalition of car manufacturers, business chiefs and
00:49 nature charities all say he's got it wrong. And here's Dr Robert Barker from the University
00:55 of Kent.
00:57 I think anything that puts the brake on our response to the climate crisis that we're
01:02 living in is bad news. We've been at the forefront and we continue to be through the projects
01:08 we're talking about here at the forefront of what we can do. But we start putting the
01:12 brakes on that, we start stepping back, the compromises will keep coming and that's scary
01:16 and that's a worrying time. It's a worrying time not only for actually the climate crisis
01:20 but economically it's a worrying time.
01:23 Well joining me this week is the Conservative South Thanet MP Craig McKinley and Labour
01:27 Councillor Dickon Spain from Ashford Borough Council. Welcome to both of you. Craig, was
01:33 Rishi Sunak brave this week or was he weak?
01:37 He was pragmatic. You'll have heard that word a lot this week. Pragmatic on a number of
01:41 counts. I think what is behind this is a realisation that we do not have enough electricity supply.
01:47 Now let me tell you some facts about energy in the UK. I'm the Net Zero Scrutiny Group
01:52 Chairman of Conservative MPs. Electricity only makes up 20% of what we use in total.
01:58 The rest of it is petrol and diesel in our cars, gas and oil in our boilers and a bit
02:04 of solid fuel. We haven't even got close to using alternative renewable energies to make
02:10 the 20% of electricity we use and we're trying to fill that 80%. We're not even close to
02:18 any of that. So this is a reality check. In the same week that we have a judicial review
02:24 potential against the 3.2 gigawatt Sizewell C, we had the offshore wind farm auction last
02:32 week, completely failed. I think this is a reality check that we're just simply not going
02:38 to get there in these type of timescales. Because all very well politicians of the past
02:42 and you know I like Boris very much but you know his boosterism about we're going to do
02:46 this and COP26, it just didn't stand up to the reality of life. It wasn't long ago we
02:52 were talking about banning internal combustion engines in 2040 and then suddenly it morphed
02:57 to 2035 and then it morphed to 2030. None of it legislated for yet and you think well
03:04 where have these plucked dates come from and why? Well to be clear of course it wasn't
03:08 banning internal combustion engines in 2030, it was only the sale of brand new cars. Of
03:12 course, yeah. I personally don't think the battery is the way forward. I think something
03:17 better will come whether that is hydrogen driven or an alternative liquid fuel. Because
03:24 even in the EU, their 2035 date, Germany has actually managed to kick that off a little
03:30 bit further as long as the fuel used in the new internal combustion engines post 2035
03:36 is run on a synthetic fuel that is not hydrocarbon related. I mean that has got so many opportunities
03:42 because you're not ripping up existing infrastructure, you're not having to change petrol stations
03:47 and change all of that infrastructure that exists and the carbon upon which has been
03:52 bought and paid for and it's done. You can still do things with that flexibility that
03:58 internal combustion engine cars give you. Dick, I want to bring you in. There's been
04:01 a lot of talk about the symbolism of this and what it means for organisations, for businesses
04:09 who are striving towards net zero. Local government of course a big part of that. What do you
04:14 make of what Rishi Sunak has done this week? Well I think obviously the date has bounced
04:19 around as Craig has said. At one point it was 2040, it then came back to 2035, 2030
04:28 and now we've gone back to 2035. 2030 is seven years off. A lot can happen in seven
04:36 years with the electric vehicle technology, the battery technology is moving ahead incredibly
04:42 quickly, the different types of battery chemistries that are coming out are incredible. So I think
04:49 we can be pragmatic about what's going on but I think the technology is moving at a
04:53 massive pace. China's investing massively, you've got huge companies like CATL, battery
05:00 technology that are coming up with incredible inventions. The battery packs are coming down
05:04 in weight and having more battery power stored per weight. So I think it's a technology
05:11 in progress. In terms of the energy generation mix, obviously we're moving ahead with it.
05:19 I think that will gradually fill out. There are new technologies and advances coming along.
05:24 One of the things that's rarely if ever talked about is geothermal. Now there's some absolutely
05:30 amazing stuff on the cards. I think that's quite exciting. Absolutely amazing stuff for
05:34 deep drilling which would allow us to actually do geothermal not just in the places where
05:39 the hot rocks are close to the surface and there's been some test stuff going on in Cornwall
05:44 where you've got hotter rocks close to the surface but pretty much anywhere. So that
05:49 could mean that we can post convert some of our gas turbine plants by drilling underneath
05:56 that plant using the same mechanisms, the same turbines that we've already got and actually
06:00 power those and actually create. And that is an endless, effectively endless supply
06:06 of energy. I'm the chair of the Zero Security Group to look at these things that are actually
06:09 practical. Those type of things I think are practical. I'm very concerned about batteries
06:14 - the cobalt within them is mined on the backs of children in the Democratic Republic of
06:19 Congo. We've got China very much involved in the supply chain of the rare minerals.
06:23 I don't think that's very sensible. And the other change this week of course was the extension
06:28 of the gas boiler ban and the oil boiler ban. I'm not convinced about heat pumps. Again
06:35 I think there might be a better technology. People I know have got heat pumps. They say
06:38 that the worst thing they've ever bought. The radiators aren't hot enough. We've got
06:41 to do the second fix of getting bigger radiators, more insulation. Wish we'd never touched them.
06:47 We're not in this to force people to do things. If there was a great electric car or a great
06:53 whatever car, I will buy it. That's how technology works. I mean I didn't need to ban the Motorola
07:00 flip phone for me to get one of these. It did things that I wanted at a price I wanted
07:07 and that is how things should move.
07:08 An important part of this is how business perceives these changes from government. You
07:13 had Ford this week say they want ambition, commitment and consistency from government
07:18 because that encourages them to invest and innovate and they haven't seen any of those
07:22 things. You're leading on a green hub in Ramsgate which is supposed to bring in the kind of
07:27 companies that will develop the technologies you've just been talking about. Will they
07:30 look at what's happening in the UK at the moment and think well this isn't a safe bet
07:34 for our money because we just don't know what the policy will be tomorrow?
07:36 Well it's actually safer than any other part of the world because we are one of the few
07:40 countries for good or ill who have actually legislated for 2050. Many of the other countries
07:45 they turn up at COP26 in their private aircraft and all the rest of it and put that aside.
07:51 And they haven't actually legislated for it. Britain is actually the only one that has.
07:55 Now you picked out Ford. Toyota were very supportive of this. As were Jaguar Land Rover,
08:01 very supportive. Because these are global manufacturers and most of the world is on
08:06 2035. That's the rest of the EU, Australia, many of the big states in the US. Other states
08:12 in the US are not going to do this at all. So they have actually got global certainty
08:17 rather than having to go well we need to do that specially for that market and that for
08:21 that market. I think you'll find Ford will come around to the fact that we're rather
08:25 pleased about this. We've now got global certainty. So I think a bit of huff and puff this week
08:29 if I'm honest.
08:30 I would like to come in on the 2030. I mean I'm very ambitious for Britain as I'm sure
08:37 you are Craig. And I think there's some advantages to having the 2030 in that it was pushing
08:43 us ahead faster than Europe. So I mean we have got obviously the freedom not to be aligned
08:46 with Europe which I think is a really good thing.
08:49 Well you can cut your parachute ropes and you're going to get to the ground first. Doesn't
08:52 mean it's a good thing.
08:53 There's first mover advantage as well. We know this in business. And I think we should
08:58 be tremendously ambitious about what we can do in this country. We've got some amazing
09:02 people as we all know. And I think one of the things is with a seven year target you
09:09 can drive people. And we saw in wartime what we managed to do within those years was absolutely
09:14 incredible. And I do feel there's a famous speech by Churchill which is a time of consequences.
09:22 We're at a time of consequences where we don't want any half measures. We don't want to prevaricate.
09:28 We really need to get on with it. And I think if we are treated in the right way by whoever
09:33 is running things that can really drive us in a very positive direction.
09:36 We can have a debate about this date, that date, this is good, that's bad, this technology
09:40 is the one we should be using. We can have all those debates. But China, India, Indonesia
09:47 and other growing countries are saying yabu to that. So why are we saddling ourselves
09:52 uniquely with trillions of pounds of cost. This isn't little cost. This is trillions
09:57 for our 1% of global CO2. Well I would say China are ahead. Because they're not going
10:00 to run after us. They're not going to run down this rabbit hole. China are way, well
10:04 EVs, China are way ahead. They are really doing some huge damage to, I mean Germany
10:09 is very very worried because they are damaging companies like Volkswagen and Household Games
10:15 which are producing good products but the Chinese are really pushing stuff ahead. And
10:19 do you know how they're building those cars so cheaply? And building their batteries so
10:22 cheaply? They're now doing a lot in China. Oh no but they're building it on the back
10:24 of cheap coal powered energy. So you couldn't make that up really. They are a country in
10:29 transition now. I think to be fair. They are trying to move forward on the environmental
10:33 front, on the climate change front. So they are really pushing it. I'll just bring the
10:37 focus back just for a very brief bit at the end of this half. Back to Kent. You were talking
10:41 about the push for innovation now. I went on to ZapMap which is one of the mapping things
10:45 for charging points for electric cars. There are 51 in Ashford, there are 24 in Ramsgate.
10:51 The incentive to build more has just been reduced hasn't it? The provision is pretty
10:57 woeful I think at the moment and that is, obviously providing infrastructure ahead of
11:01 time is key to actually encouraging people to use certain technologies. So that is a
11:05 challenge. Again I think there are opportunities to advance these technologies to be a front
11:10 runner to actually be in the lead of these things. I think what really concerns me is
11:15 this divides society in the haves and have nots. If you've got a decent house with a
11:20 driveway, you've got your overnight octopus package of electricity at 12 pence a kilowatt
11:25 hour, that's rather different from someone else who has to go to a charging centre paying
11:29 50 pence, full VAT, very different. You've got to buy this vehicle in the first place,
11:34 very, very expensive. Individual buyers are not really buying these in great scale because
11:40 of the worries. But we'll come back soon. When we come back, could you soon be hopping
11:43 to Europe on a Ramsgate ferry or boarding a budget airline at Manston Airport? We'll
11:48 see you very shortly.
11:55 [END]
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