Hoosier Roundtable: Tayven Jackson is Great, Play Call on 4th & Goal is Bad
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00:00 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Hoosier Roundtable podcast.
00:03 I'm your host, Daniel Olinger, joined, as I always am, by a man
00:08 who would not have called that play on fourth and goal, Jack Ankeny.
00:11 Jack, how are you doing today?
00:13 Doing pretty good, Daniel.
00:14 Thanks for giving me some credit with that.
00:17 Yeah, plenty to talk about.
00:21 From yesterday's game, I think we learned a lot about Indiana
00:23 as we thought we would after, you know, Ohio State and Indiana State
00:27 didn't learn a ton, but yeah, plenty to talk about
00:30 about yesterday's 21-14 loss.
00:33 Yeah. And I mean, we'll just dive right into it,
00:36 because that's rightfully what every fan is talking about is
00:38 not how we got to 21-14 in the Indiana-Louisville game,
00:43 but what happened when it could have not been 21-14, when Indiana had it
00:47 on a fourth and goal from what was announced in the press box,
00:51 at least, as the one and a half foot line.
00:54 So about as close as you could.
00:56 Like, Taven, like they said, did not step out when he dove for the end zone,
01:00 Michael Penick style, ball in his outstretched hand, like just barely short.
01:04 And Indiana, after calling a timeout,
01:09 their second to last timeout of the game, they only had one after this.
01:12 And basically, everyone knowing this play basically decides the game for them.
01:15 Either, like, they could have tried to take the lead on a two point
01:19 conversion, they got a touchdown.
01:20 Obviously, they would have had the chance to tie it.
01:22 Like, they needed that touchdown.
01:24 They have Josh Henderson line of about eight yards in the backfield,
01:28 slowly get out of, like, a goal line formation.
01:30 And by the time he's handed the ball, the entire right side of Indiana's
01:34 offensive line is caved in.
01:36 It's clear that, like, he's not going anywhere.
01:37 I believe the play lost like three yards. So.
01:40 Yeah, like a good way to think about it is that Indiana was one foot
01:45 and a half away, one and a half feet away from scoring a touchdown.
01:49 And they never got closer than three yards away on the play.
01:52 So it was pretty brutal.
01:55 I mean, we were all saying like, I mean, I think me and you're going
01:57 to have the same opinion on this is like that.
01:59 That should have been a quarterback sneak.
02:01 Yeah. No, I mean, the way I wrote it in my column after the game was,
02:05 you know, they just needed 18 inches and instead
02:09 they chose to give the ball to Henderson.
02:11 I think he touched it six yards away.
02:13 Instead, they lost like 70 inches.
02:16 And yeah, I mean, the quarterback sneak,
02:20 the way that Taven was kind of lined up, too,
02:22 I thought that's what they were going to do.
02:24 And I think that he lunges with his knee very deep,
02:28 like he's in a pretty good thinking as he's trying to like
02:30 push himself off one of those knees and into the end zone.
02:33 So that would have worked. Yeah, right.
02:35 I thought that was.
02:37 The call to go with 100%, you know, and especially
02:41 because you can push guys in now and, you know, you only need 18 yards.
02:46 And I was looking at Indiana's rushing stats and stuff,
02:49 and I know like they scored on a very similar play
02:53 with Henderson on a run similar to that.
02:55 But even that play, like I think me and you were saying in the press box, like
02:58 we both didn't think he got in initially and then he kind of fell in
03:03 and they signaled touchdown pretty late.
03:05 Also, I believe that was like three yards out on like a first goal over Louisville.
03:09 No, it's like we read it.
03:11 It wasn't the exact same, but yeah, 18 inches away, though.
03:14 Louisville like knows you are running the ball like
03:18 and you've also given them the time out for like to give chance.
03:21 Like everyone knew what Louisville's defense was doing, which is
03:23 they're sending everyone.
03:25 They are assuming you're just running up the middle in some fashion.
03:27 And it's basically who can push the other more, basically.
03:32 And just I don't know why you're not.
03:34 You don't see in that moment that just a QB sneak, which
03:37 and I think this is the thing we mean you talked about the game
03:40 is that no one would have been mad at Indiana's coaches specifically
03:44 if they called the QB sneak 18 inches away, didn't get it.
03:47 I mean, obviously, there's always some people are mad, but like that's
03:50 it's very it's a very real coach speak thing, but it actually is pretty true
03:53 is that if you can't get 18 inches and football like QB sneak,
03:56 you didn't deserve to win the game like your own line has to be able to make that push.
03:59 This is different.
04:00 That's like I don't think anyone's met any of the players,
04:03 even the offensive line that I caved in there.
04:04 It's like, why are you calling a timeout?
04:06 And that's the play you dial it up like either.
04:09 You should be calling the timeout because you have some golden play
04:12 in your playbook and you know it's going to work.
04:14 And this is like so such a perfect design that you just trust it so much
04:18 or you were just or have been good if you're going for the most basic QB sneak.
04:22 Maybe just giving your offensive line another minute to rest.
04:25 I would understand that, too.
04:26 But instead, you call like I don't know.
04:29 It's not exactly HB dive, but it's just a wide run things like what you said.
04:33 Henderson's lined up so far back.
04:35 Yeah, eight yards back.
04:38 Yeah, it was crazy.
04:39 And you think about just the personnel that Indiana has
04:43 this year and last year, interior running has never been a strength of this team.
04:48 No, I don't know why.
04:50 Yesterday, right.
04:51 Like you look at the stats, Jalen Lucas, eight carries, 29 yards.
04:55 That's three point six yards to carry.
04:57 Josh Henderson, seven carries, 26 yards.
05:00 That's three point seven.
05:01 Christian Turner, two for nine.
05:03 That's a little bit better, but it's two carries.
05:04 You know, this is interior running is not a strength.
05:09 They guys like Lucas especially thrives when you kind of get them
05:14 in space and even Henderson, I would argue, is better
05:16 kind of when he has a chance to make guys miss or break one tackle
05:22 in the open field as opposed to kind of plowing through,
05:26 you know, the middle of the offense and defensive line.
05:30 So that was a problem I had with it, too, is like
05:33 if it's a strength of your team running it up the middle and you get stuffed,
05:37 maybe you can chalk that up to, oh, we just didn't execute a play.
05:41 But it's not a play that has consistently worked for Indiana.
05:46 Again, I know they scored on the Josh Henderson one earlier,
05:48 but it's a different scenario.
05:50 And that's one play compared to the entire season
05:54 and even last year with Henderson or even when they had Sean Chivers.
05:58 And, you know, they've had running backs the last two years where it's
06:01 their strength is more in space.
06:04 So, yeah, I mean, I think quarterback dive would have.
06:07 I mean, quarterback sneak was the call.
06:09 I mean, I would have even preferred if you're going to run it up
06:12 the middle with Henderson, why not put Trent Howland back there?
06:16 He's why not?
06:18 Or even if you're going to hand it to him, why is like why?
06:21 Why does Henderson need some big running start?
06:23 Like, right.
06:24 Have him at the have it like almost like being handing off on a fullback
06:27 dive almost where he's like at the four or three yard line
06:30 and then you're just hoping in the jump.
06:31 So like I don't understand why like that slow developing like.
06:36 Yeah, we run what you're going for and just trusting that.
06:40 This offensive line is much improved, I think,
06:42 especially in pass protection.
06:43 Like, yeah, I mean, honestly, like we're going to talk about
06:45 how good Taven is at avoiding sacks, but I think it's a real strength.
06:50 As soon as whereas last year felt like Basilak was just getting like
06:53 bludgeoned every time he dropped back there, which is partially on base
06:56 like for not being like very vocal, but they're they can actually pretty
07:00 well pass protect like run blocking.
07:01 Like you said, they're never going to be a team that just like mulls people over.
07:04 But like this offensive line is not like something
07:08 unlike last year, where Indiana's offense clearly had to game plan
07:11 around the fact their offensive line could not stop anyone.
07:14 They at least do not have to design their whole game plan around.
07:17 We need to hide this offensive line.
07:19 They're good enough to like not do that.
07:22 And I just don't understand how you're like,
07:24 but you're just trying to see them and say, oh, these guys can hold up
07:28 for three whole seconds as we let Henderson like slowly develop this run
07:31 instead of just.
07:32 Hey, like three or two guards in center, like everyone just like
07:37 put your head down and move in like we're going to have a running back
07:40 behind Taven, shove them into the end zone, and then the game's tied.
07:43 Right. And kind of going back to no, I totally agree with that.
07:46 And kind of going back to the point about Howland, he's listed at six, three to 40.
07:51 I mean, that guy's built like Derrick Henry.
07:53 And I remember like in the preseason, like we asked while balance up
07:58 about kind of doing this three running back rotation with Lucas
08:01 and Henderson and Turner.
08:03 And like he made a point to mention Howland, too, and like that
08:06 he thought that he was going to have a role on this team.
08:09 And I think he even got a couple of carries against Ohio State and Indiana State.
08:12 So to me, if you're going to run that play, it almost felt like
08:16 he was the better option there.
08:17 I would have also even maybe preferred
08:19 maybe a fake the run and go play action and let Taven make a play with his legs.
08:24 I saw people saying that online, just like even keeps it there.
08:28 It's at least like one on one with a good angle against like a
08:31 only defensive back, like basically the Louisville have left.
08:34 Like, again, like I wouldn't love that play call, but at least there's
08:37 some reason I can see behind it versus just I don't know how you call that play.
08:42 If you're Walt Bell and think this will work more than like 10 percent of the time,
08:46 which I mean, we should probably then address Walt Bell, who is the guy who
08:50 called the play.
08:51 And, you know, I saw some people like really mad at Tom Allen
08:54 because I mean, he's in charge of Walt Bell.
08:56 Like he probably has the authority, especially on a play call like that
09:00 to overrule him if he wants.
09:01 But I mean, it's two games now.
09:03 Like, obviously, they were not saying what Walt Bell's the reason
09:06 they lost to Ohio State, but like he was already a source of frustration
09:10 after game one when he's admittedly the week after said he was basically playing
09:14 way too conservatively the whole game that that game plan that we said
09:17 was basically designed to lose by less not to help it give Indiana
09:20 any shot at winning where they're just
09:22 winding away the clock and not doing anything with it.
09:25 And then this game where I again, like you can even say like
09:29 first, like 55 minutes of the game, what that was not really that much
09:33 of an issue, I'm sure there were play to play call to call things
09:36 that weren't great, like the fourth down, where they basically had a very basic
09:39 slant that had no chance of working, where Taviness is a peg at a guy
09:43 who's completely draped over a camera wasn't going to work.
09:45 But for the most part, like obviously, the second half
09:48 offense is pretty good coming back from down 21 nothing.
09:51 But just to throw it all away of that situational play college.
09:54 And I can't get over the fact that they wasted the time out on that.
09:56 Yeah, that's what they decided they needed from that.
09:59 Right. And obviously, if you get it, then it doesn't matter.
10:02 It doesn't really matter that you lose the time out.
10:04 But then when Indiana's defense was on the field, there was just like,
10:07 gosh, you don't get it and then you can't you don't have any power
10:10 to stop the clock, just really compounded it.
10:12 And yeah, I mean, my I guess my point about the Tavis rollout thing,
10:16 I would have preferred that to what they did.
10:19 But obviously, still, I think quarterback sneak was kind of the way to go.
10:23 I would I would have preferred a four lateral trick play.
10:25 So, like anything else that was like that was very much
10:29 the worst possible option, I think, on with.
10:32 And I think it's very of Indiana fans.
10:35 Like, I don't think any Indiana fans are being overreactionary
10:39 if they are this mad at Walt Bell after this game and like are going to say,
10:42 hey, if it's like seven games this season, this kind of stuff just keep happening.
10:45 Like, it's a major issue.
10:47 And I think it's especially frustrating to look at the rest of this team.
10:50 It's like there's the outline of a solid big 10 team here.
10:52 The defense obviously got gashed by Louisville in the first half,
10:55 but really woke up in the second, made some good plays.
10:57 And I think I was talking to you, Jack, about how I think this could be a match
11:01 with specific thing in the first half where I think this defense is pretty good.
11:04 Although Louisville has some speed on the outside, especially Jamari Thrash,
11:07 who really like I don't think it's Indiana defense is elite speed,
11:10 like probably the only guy there's only there's a couple of defense back line.
11:13 No appears pretty fast.
11:15 I know, like a few guys like that, but mainly like this is just a team
11:19 where Louisville is going to gash for some big plays in their offense.
11:21 Might be really good, but the defense looks good.
11:24 Taven, like I mean, you know better than I do.
11:27 So all those ask you here is Taven.
11:29 Like how confident is it seem that like Taven is since 2020 version of Michael
11:33 Penix, the best quarterback in the NSAD?
11:35 Yeah, I mean, I I think I think from from a talent perspective, of course he is.
11:42 You know, I last year he's definitely better than than Connor Bazelak.
11:46 I think the one argument maybe you could
11:49 I think you could potentially make an argument for Jack Tuttle,
11:55 like in terms of like who Taven is right now versus like Tuttle at his best,
12:01 because Tuttle did lead Indiana at Wisconsin and win that game.
12:06 So if I'm recalling, it wasn't the final that scored like 14 to six.
12:09 Yeah, no. And that's what I was going to say.
12:11 That was even a game where and in a season really
12:14 where Indiana was able to lean on its defense.
12:17 So, yeah, I mean, I think there is some argument
12:21 that you could make with Tuttle, but
12:24 he also had a fair share of of rough games.
12:28 So I think Taven, you know, he's still young,
12:32 but I think he has a crazy bright future and we can talk about him more in a sec.
12:38 I wanted to go back to one thing with with the goal line.
12:40 We have talked about I think the offensive line is
12:44 much better than it is last year, and they had some good moments past blocking.
12:48 But it really collapsed on that goal line play.
12:52 And while I think the main criticism goes to the play call,
12:57 you know, I think the execution was pretty bad, too.
13:01 And you kind of if you slow down that replay.
13:03 Just that whole right side, it almost looked like they kind of like
13:09 I think it was Cleo Benson got off the ball like a lot faster,
13:15 like he was like a step into his block before Bedford and Sales
13:20 were even lifted their hand off.
13:21 I did see that thing to have a bunch of Indiana linemen were like slow to react.
13:24 But I also like and I think, yeah, they obviously didn't do a good job on that play.
13:27 But it's also just it seemed like we all kind of knew that they were going to do it.
13:31 In fact, they had enough time to it was such a slow developing run.
13:33 They had enough time to react to it and kind of like just all body.
13:37 It's just it's so much to ask your offensive line
13:40 and to hold those blocks for like two seconds while you do this slow developing run.
13:44 I I definitely think you're right.
13:46 They didn't do a good job of their and they had struggles
13:48 run blocking for a lot of the day.
13:50 But like I think it's more on the coach and the play color.
13:54 Well, if he looks at the line, says I'm going to trust them for three
13:57 things, hold the seven instead of saying, hey, guys, can you get me 18 inches
14:00 on a QBC like which I think they probably could have done.
14:03 And then you don't have to worry about that part.
14:06 It's just it's literally just becomes a pushing match.
14:08 And you might be able to just get that.
14:10 Again, the play is not what this team's strength is at all.
14:14 It's pretty far down on the list.
14:16 We're going to talk about that.
14:17 But yeah, I guess let's get into Taven if we I feel like we were able
14:20 to go on and play pretty well.
14:23 What did what did you think of him yesterday?
14:24 I remember the first half when they're obviously everything's going wrong.
14:28 They're moving the ball some, but Taven was missing so many throws high.
14:32 It could be anything from a check down to like the interception over the middle.
14:35 Like I'm pretty sure that I know that's deflection, but that one was on Taven.
14:38 Like I forget which receiver he was trying to hit.
14:41 I think it was Dekeese Carter.
14:43 Whoever it was. I'm not mad.
14:44 I would not be mad at the receiver for that.
14:46 That was way too high and way too fast.
14:48 Like you just even need to calm down a little bit.
14:51 And then that's the thing he did.
14:52 Like he was lights out in the second half.
14:55 Like as we said, he's now again, another complaint for Walt Bell is
14:59 got to stop trying to design run Taven.
15:01 That's not really his strength.
15:02 Taven's not actually he's not that much of a runner.
15:05 And like I didn't have great running
15:06 rushing staff at center growth like Brennan Sorsby had much better
15:09 rushing stats in the high school or like is a much better designed runner.
15:12 And Taven's not he Taven is both not like in a straight line spring
15:16 sprinter, but he's also not like some powerful big guy
15:19 who's going to like win contact yards.
15:20 It's not small, but he's also not like built crazy strong.
15:23 Right. But Taven is.
15:25 Yeah, but Taven is so like elusive in the pocket.
15:29 And it's such a good the amount of times someone's coming on his backside
15:32 or blindside, you thought he's about to get wrecked.
15:34 And then he just steps out of the way or makes a little turn.
15:36 And as they couldn't get him down.
15:38 And not only that, like.
15:41 So often when he would get outside the pocket,
15:42 then he found someone downfield for a pass to like reset himself
15:45 or at least scramble for a couple of yards.
15:47 I mean, the play that set him up at the goal line for fourth and goal
15:50 is a great play by Taven to get out and try and dive for the goal line.
15:52 Like and then some of the throws in the second half, like throwing it
15:56 like deep throw of a camper, the one that I think Bama cut.
15:59 It was a little hot, but still pretty good.
16:01 But he's like driving these throws.
16:02 Jaylen Mook's over the middle, like really can drive the ball over the middle.
16:05 I I'm very impressed with Taven, especially his first game as a full time starter.
16:09 And again, this is what makes it so frustrating that feels like the play
16:13 calling could be holding them back is that you have a defense.
16:16 I think it's been pretty solid all year.
16:17 Some really good skill guys in camp camper and Jaylen Lucas,
16:20 an offensive line that at least is competent and then a rising freshman
16:24 quarterback. And yet I would still think if you ask most Indiana fans,
16:27 are they going to go over four wins a season?
16:30 They'd probably say no, because it's like they look at this play.
16:32 It's like this is just holding them back.
16:34 Yeah, no, I think I think you're pretty spot on with that.
16:37 I I think the thing with Taven, like you, we can break down
16:41 like his great throws and kind of the X's and O's about it, which were good,
16:45 especially in the second half.
16:47 I was really just impressed with it's twenty one zero at halftime.
16:51 And that's a spot where like a young quarterback could crumble.
16:56 And, you know, you just chalk it up as,
17:00 hey, you know, this is a young quarterback playing a bad game.
17:03 But that second half, like he he did not seem phased at all.
17:07 You talked about the pocket awareness.
17:09 I thought that was honestly one of the most impressive parts of his game.
17:13 Just those times like it's not that the pass blocking was bad
17:17 because I actually thought it was pretty solid for most of the day.
17:19 But just those certain,
17:20 you know, kind of plays where maybe the blitz is coming from one side
17:26 and he's got to kind of maneuver around or or he's just got to kind of figure
17:30 that out, like he knew, like the steps to take while also like
17:34 kind of keeping himself balanced, like he made a nice a couple of nice throws
17:38 on the run.
17:39 It's the most cliche thing you can say, but it did kind of feel like,
17:42 oh, Taven's a gamer, like he's yeah, he knows what he's doing back there
17:46 all the time. Right.
17:48 I wrote in my story after the game, like Tom Allen cannot stop saying
17:52 that he loves Taven's moxie after like I think he's I think Alan has said
17:56 that in like three or four press conferences.
17:59 You're right. I remember, too.
18:01 But like he's right.
18:02 Like that, that's what it is.
18:04 And it's cliche, like, but it's true, too.
18:07 Like he has that kind of feeling.
18:09 And I think like when we've talked to teammates and stuff like I think it was
18:12 McCully.
18:13 He said, you know, yeah, I just love the way he carries himself
18:16 and his demeanor and things like that, and I think that's really impressive
18:20 to see from a young quarterback and promising for the future
18:24 that like he's already kind of because that's something that I think
18:27 some quarterbacks maybe don't have until later on in their career.
18:31 Like maybe they play well because they're talented or whatever it may be.
18:36 And they don't kind of get that factor until until later on.
18:40 But, you know, he he pretty clearly has that, I think.
18:43 And I guess kind of to your big picture point, like Indiana
18:48 does have the pieces with Taven and Lucas and Kamp or a couple other good receivers.
18:54 You know, I think Bradley Archer is looking like a solid addition
18:58 at a tight end that they made in the portal to add to Bomba and Steinfeld.
19:02 Like it's not an amazing tight end room, but like it seems like the offense
19:05 is coming together, but.
19:08 It hasn't quite been able to reach the full point,
19:11 and I think some of that falls back on the wall about.
19:14 Yeah, and I think we can probably start talking about the defense a little bit,
19:19 because I think everyone coming in this game, like we want to know
19:22 so much about the offense after those first two weeks,
19:24 we're pretty sure the defense is fine.
19:25 The defense comes out has a really brutal first half,
19:28 just can't stop a little offense at all.
19:30 As anyone knows, 21 points, a lot of big plays to Jamari Thrash,
19:35 who did not catch the ball in the second half,
19:37 but had four receptions for 159 yards in the first half.
19:41 I will say for any of any of the fans are like, oh, man, our defense kind of fake.
19:46 Like it woke up in the second half, but man, this isn't great.
19:49 I mean, this little offense might also be pretty good.
19:51 Plumbers not an amazing quarterback, but he is like he's very up and down
19:56 like some of those, but he will take shots.
19:58 He sometimes he seems capable of hitting those deep balls,
20:00 and they do have a lot of speed between Jordan Thrash.
20:02 Just they can hit those big plays.
20:05 This might be a Louisville offense that just finishes
20:07 really some really impressive numbers of the season.
20:10 As people saw, India's defense in the second half woke up.
20:12 And I think a lot of that was obviously the onside kick to start the second half
20:15 that I know caught me by surprise because I was not looking at the field
20:18 when it happened, had to be told.
20:20 But I think that definitely obviously give the whole team life.
20:24 And it just felt like like you don't even remember Louisville
20:27 having the ball in the second half besides like that final drive
20:30 where like they basically put the game away.
20:33 They lost Conteo and Plummer a few times.
20:34 But I know people might be upset about that.
20:36 But Louisville just needed two first downs to end the game.
20:39 It was pretty much over.
20:40 But I just felt like I need to look at the time of possession
20:44 Indiana had in the second half, because I swear they held the ball the entire time.
20:47 Well, if you look at Louisville's drive chart in the second half, it's five plays
20:53 punt, three plays interception, eight plays for 20 yards,
20:58 punt, five plays, punt and then run out the clock.
21:03 Like that was a heck of a defensive performance after like
21:07 when when we were sitting there in halftime, like.
21:09 I felt fooled by what you saw.
21:13 You felt you felt like the opposite of the Shaq meme, or is like you
21:17 you owe me an apology. You tricked me.
21:19 Yeah, like I was legitimately buying in.
21:22 And I know it's early, but like I was legitimately buying into the idea
21:27 that this is a strong defense after what they did against Ohio State
21:32 and limiting Marvin Harrison and some of those running backs
21:35 and then just completely stonewalling Indiana State.
21:40 Like I was buying into what they were doing and kind of the
21:44 the McInerney play calling and and kind of what that does for Allen
21:48 and everything and the D lineman they brought in.
21:51 And at halftime, I was like, man, like we we got fooled.
21:54 But they completely turned it around.
21:57 You know, I think like Allen was talking about, like some adjustments
22:01 they made to like fill the run gaps like it felt like in the first half.
22:04 You know, every time Louisville was running, they were getting four or five,
22:08 six yards like it felt like that turned into one, two or three yards
22:12 in the second half, which.
22:14 You know, it is not a major difference, but it adds up.
22:16 And then in the secondary, like they blew a couple of those coverages,
22:20 which sounded like it was just kind of communication things and just like
22:25 Tom Allen said it was I disciplined like and he wouldn't say
22:28 how clear it was. I'm pretty sure we could go back.
22:29 I mean, he said, like their corners just been on a few double moves.
22:32 And when you have a quarterback like Plummer, you can hit deep shots and a dude
22:36 like I mean, thrashes.
22:38 Yeah, that's like you can't.
22:40 Again, he's like he's like their version.
22:42 I'd probably say he's a better player at this point.
22:44 Jaylen's still pretty young, but like the same way teams have to be concerned
22:48 about Jaylen Lucas, because if you forget him, I'm a second gashes you.
22:51 If that speed like that's what a guy like thrash does to other defenses,
22:54 where if you make a mistake, you're in trouble
22:56 because you can't really catch up with them. Right.
22:59 And it almost feels like those mistakes, if it's like a guy
23:03 looking in the wrong place or communication like that, feels something like that.
23:06 It's possible to correct where like other than just like,
23:09 you know, this guy's better than someone, which I mean, I also don't think like
23:14 Indiana might not face another receiver like Jamari Thrash,
23:18 like maybe one or two more.
23:19 But, you know, it's not like they're going to be facing him every game.
23:23 And then and to Indiana's credit, they made the adjustments
23:27 they needed to make in the second half to shut him down
23:30 and to shut Louisville down overall.
23:32 So I'm in on this defense.
23:34 I think like Garary has done a good job.
23:37 I think Alan prefers to have the head coach role
23:43 and with someone else calling, but like having input in the defense.
23:47 So I'm Tom Allen calling plays on offense.
23:51 Let's see. All right.
23:53 I saw some people like pointing out that they thought Andre
23:57 Carter was getting held a lot.
23:58 And I kind of looked back at some of those plays in the second half and,
24:00 you know, he was getting pressure and there was one specific one.
24:05 I remember where like they were very mad being called.
24:07 I think he was about to break loose as like Plummer was trying to roll to his left.
24:10 He definitely was getting held.
24:11 But and like that specific play, I understand it for the whole game.
24:15 And I'm like, everyone gets held like in that, like on the 85 yard
24:19 touchdown to Thrash and stuff like that, the place actually killed him like that.
24:23 That was just them making a play that kind of killed you.
24:26 So I think it's very possible Andre Carter probably is getting held.
24:29 But I also feel like that definitely should not be like, oh, but if only.
24:33 It's not it's not a full game excuse type of thing.
24:36 But I think big picture I am, you know, after feeling
24:41 down at halftime about it, like I think overall, like I think this
24:44 this defense will be good enough to keep Indiana competitive.
24:48 Like, I'm not convinced like that they're going to shut down Michigan or Penn State
24:51 or or things like that, but like kind of in those toss up games that they have with.
24:56 You know, whether it's Rutgers or Michigan State or Purdue or whoever,
25:00 like I think it's a defense that can keep Indiana in games.
25:05 And as Taven slowly progresses, like I think that's a pretty good recipe
25:10 if they can kind of put some of the things together and if Bell can kind of figure
25:14 out how to maximize some of those offensive weapons.
25:18 So one thing I want to talk about is obviously it's such a very
25:21 such an up and down game, just like that's the absolute.
25:26 Or like, it's like I'm trying to think of a good way
25:29 to describe the progression of this game.
25:30 So obviously the entire first half just go everything going wrong.
25:33 Indiana's dead. There's no there's no way this
25:36 the like Indiana State games complete false hope.
25:39 I mean, Ohio State fans were losing their minds over that game
25:42 because of what it might have meant that Louisville could run it up on them.
25:46 But Ohio State couldn't.
25:48 Then the second half happens, and it's just so much
25:50 what ended up being false hope for the whole game that they're going to come back.
25:54 They're going to do it.
25:55 And all that the end, I ended up asking people online, like,
25:58 where does this one rank in terms of like, obviously, Indiana has a lot of
26:01 has a history of like a lot of games like this that you've alluded to before,
26:05 like how many close games they lost last year,
26:07 but just throughout the whole history of games that
26:09 it seems so, so close and then something happens.
26:12 I asked, like, where does this rank in terms of like pain?
26:15 And like the top five responses, not even top 25 does not register,
26:18 not even close, does not move the needle like.
26:21 I mean, you've been around Indiana longer than I have.
26:24 So I could ask you where it is like, does like this not even like a top five
26:28 most painful thing you can remember happening to an Indiana football team?
26:31 Is that fourth and goal play?
26:32 Yeah, I mean, I.
26:34 I think it's lower on the list just because like it was more so
26:39 like a one play failure type thing, whereas like
26:43 there's been games in the past like.
26:47 Where it's like maybe more of an entire fourth quarter collapse
26:51 or like multiple things adding up, I think when it's one play, maybe it.
26:54 It's things worse for fans,
26:59 like I think back to last year, like when they're playing Maryland
27:02 and Talia goes down and it's like, all right, you're at home,
27:06 you're winning by a score, you've got to shut down this backup quarterback
27:10 and you blow it like that one.
27:12 And even worse, the backup quarterback's name is Billy Edwards Jr.
27:16 All right. That one almost feels.
27:18 Worse, because it's a situation where like it's adding up
27:24 and it's over a course of time, whereas like maybe one play is
27:29 is is less, you know, it's the biggest play of the game, obviously, but.
27:33 I think maybe that that's kind of the cause, but.
27:37 Yeah, no, it was not good.
27:41 I mean, I wrote that it's a loss that that's starting to feel too familiar,
27:45 like under this team and staff and everything, just
27:49 not being able to put it all together.
27:52 Like, I feel like we've asked Alan so many times about
27:56 how do you get your team to play four quarters? And.
28:00 You know, it just hasn't
28:04 they haven't been able to do it for going on three seasons now.
28:09 Yeah, I think what you said about not playing all together is what make
28:11 does make it sting for people who are that mad about the loss, because
28:15 it's not one where you feel like Indiana was really that bad,
28:19 but you're just like there's such a glaring problem.
28:21 You feel like all manifested in one play.
28:24 And it's the one thing that's keeping them
28:26 keeping in this team from being probably what they want to be.
28:29 So that part is probably frustrating.
28:31 I also I also don't think it helped that at the same time
28:34 that Indiana suffered that loss yesterday.
28:37 Kane Womack in South Alabama, I didn't check the files
28:40 when we were up thirty three seven on Oklahoma State.
28:42 I think that might have been the final.
28:44 Whatever they crushed him, whatever it was, came on in South Alabama.
28:48 Absolutely. Like beat the crap out of Mike Gundy in Oklahoma State.
28:51 And then I think this is the metaphor used for you.
28:55 For anyone who's seen the movie Stepbrothers, where the scene where Will
28:58 Farrell is burial, burying John C.
29:00 Riley in the ground, that is what Michael Penix Jr.
29:02 did to Michigan State last night for Washington.
29:05 I believe three hundred and seventy five passing yards
29:08 for four touchdowns in the first half.
29:10 So a lot of ghosts of Indiana pass for all of Indiana's past.
29:14 We're also having some pretty spectacular nights on the day when Indiana
29:18 called one of the less inspiring, let's say fourth down fourth
29:23 and goal play calls like the game online I've ever seen.
29:25 Yeah, no, Penix is looking like a legit.
29:28 He's the Heisman front runner.
29:30 Yeah, I think he has like thirteen hundred passing yards through three weeks.
29:34 Yeah, no, he's got a legit chance at it,
29:37 which is tough to see for Indiana like, you know, and especially when you think
29:42 like so much of that success from those seasons, it's looking like.
29:46 Was because of I mean, obviously, Tom Allen deserves credit, but like
29:51 Cain Womack and Cailin DeBoer, like Indiana has not been able to replace them.
29:56 It does seem like Guerrero was a good hire, but like replacing
30:00 DeBoer with Sheridan fired him and now Bell.
30:04 And kind of the struggles that that he's had with the offense last year
30:08 and this year, like it's it's two really important roles.
30:13 And for the most part, Indiana hasn't hit on them since those guys left.
30:17 Yeah, that's all very true.
30:20 Like we I think I'm going to like I think I'll probably stop with the old
30:24 Indiana goes to the past.
30:26 I'll care.
30:26 It's probably want to keep from insulting that one.
30:28 But I do think like if you're looking for hope, it's like this team does have more
30:32 than like the two intense squad from two years ago, much more hope than that.
30:35 It's not it's not like a dead on arrival team.
30:37 Like they again, like they have Louisville on the ropes there at the end.
30:41 They gave up.
30:42 They annoyed Ohio State for two and a half quarters.
30:44 Like I'm pretty sure, like if you ask me right now, other teams in the big ten,
30:47 I think they're much better than Michigan State and are going to beat them.
30:50 I think they're better than Purdue, who we can talk about.
30:53 Purdue might really be awful this year.
30:55 Strangely enough, Rutgers is actually kind of competent,
30:58 so that that might be one of the harder games.
31:00 But that's probably two more wins in Purdue, Michigan State,
31:03 Illinois, like is very beatable.
31:05 There's another another team there.
31:06 Again, Rutgers looks fine, but they could give Rutgers trouble.
31:09 Like there's a there's plenty enough ways that Indiana could still have a solid
31:14 season, like five, six, seven wins, even seven might be a bit much.
31:17 But I don't think that range is out of the realm of possibility.
31:20 So it's better than that.
31:21 And I think a lot of the reason why is that this team does look more talented
31:24 with all the transfers and most importantly, like Taven Jackson
31:28 looks like a good quarterback.
31:29 I don't think he's going to he might not finish as a top half of the Big Ten
31:32 quarterback this year as a freshman.
31:33 But if if you told me in 2024, Taven's one of the or
31:37 was one of the best seven quarterbacks in Big Ten.
31:40 Also also speaks a little to there's some non-inspiring
31:48 quarterbacks in Big Ten, but he's looked better than some of these other guys.
31:51 Like I know Minnesota struggling with Aitkin Caliakmanas right now.
31:55 He's been having his issues.
31:57 The Illinois and Penn State, like the game yesterday was defined by Drew O'Leary
32:00 and Luke Altmeyer, both a really, really rough outings.
32:04 Like a lot of these other teams do not just have super inspiring
32:07 quarterbacks in Indiana.
32:08 Like there's a reason to believe if Taven stays at IU for the next four years,
32:12 Johnson's looking way too far down the road.
32:14 But if he does, like Taven might be like Indiana might just have its guy now.
32:18 Yeah, no, I think they do.
32:19 I think I think there's a lot of reasons that we kind of hit on earlier
32:25 about why he's the guy and
32:28 I think big picture wise with this season, like
32:31 it felt like that three or four wins was kind of the
32:37 consensus entering the year.
32:40 And I think even after losing yesterday, I think that is maybe more shading
32:46 towards four or five, maybe even six.
32:48 I think I think you're right.
32:51 The one thing I would say is I think if you had to ask me what record
32:53 they're going to finish with, I would say four and eight.
32:55 But the difference is, whereas last year, Indiana went four and eight
32:58 and they like got very lucky to win games against Michigan State, Illinois
33:01 and Western Kentucky, like could very easily have lost through those games.
33:05 I think this could be over there for an eight.
33:07 But the four wins were very clear wins.
33:08 And it's like, oh, man, if they had just not done that against Louisville
33:11 or something that were not done against this other team, then it's a six win team.
33:14 Right. And I do want to be clear, like I'm not saying I'm stamping a six
33:18 win prediction right now in bowl eligibility, because I think like
33:21 at the end of the year, we could look back and be like, man, Indiana went four
33:25 and eight, but they had four losses that were winnable in the fourth quarter.
33:29 Like kind of like last year, like.
33:32 I think that's also a possible outcome.
33:34 And then it's like, oh, you thought they were going to win six.
33:36 What are you talking about?
33:37 Like, but I guess my point is just like you look at the schedule and.
33:40 Akron and Maryland will be tough, but I'll group that in.
33:45 That's winnable Rutgers at home.
33:49 Even like Wisconsin at home is looking a lot better than it did three weeks ago.
33:53 I guess there were only three great teams in the Big Ten.
33:56 I think it's fair to say that game looks more winnable,
33:59 like a lot more winnable than it did three weeks ago.
34:01 I'm not saying it's going to win, but and then you end the year with at Illinois
34:05 home, Michigan State at Purdue.
34:07 I think all those three teams are looking worse than maybe people thought
34:11 at the start of the year.
34:13 So I think the schedule in general is is softening up a little bit.
34:20 Maybe compared to what it looked like at the start of the year.
34:22 And then I think with the fact that the quarterback question seems.
34:26 Seems to have a pretty resounding answer,
34:30 and the defense, I think, is better than we thought it would be before the season.
34:34 Like yesterday hurts, and that's a loss that could really come back to sting them.
34:40 But I'm still like generally pretty optimistic about the season, like.
34:47 Given maybe what expectations were before the year,
34:51 I think they've been raised a little bit after the first three weeks.
34:55 No, I would definitely agree there, Jack.
34:58 Obviously, like this is Indiana football.
35:00 Things can still go wrong.
35:01 It's only been one fourth of the season.
35:03 They are still one and two, even though
35:06 most of us projected them to be one and two after three weeks.
35:09 They look better than we thought they would when they were one and two.
35:12 But it's also still you're still up more in the loss column.
35:16 So still a lot of improvement needed there.
35:18 Any last things you want to touch on before I say goodbye to the people?
35:21 Um, no, I think we're good.
35:23 I did want to we touched on it a little bit, but I want to give Alan
35:27 some credit for the onside kick call.
35:29 I thought that was that was
35:31 I thought that was a great call and a big momentum shift
35:34 to kind of create some belief because.
35:36 And a perfectly executed kick.
35:38 Yeah, it could have pretty easily gotten out of hand.
35:40 And it sounded like that was a play that they had practiced a lot
35:45 before.
35:47 I think Lewis Moore said they'd done it twice in practice
35:49 and both times it went to him in practice.
35:51 And that's exactly what happened in the game.
35:52 So I kind of wanted to point that out and hammer that home a little bit more.
35:58 I thought that was huge to get back in the game.
36:00 Obviously, they don't finish it out, but some good and some bad,
36:06 I think, to take away from that game.
36:08 Oh, yeah. And that's bring it full circle.
36:10 That's what makes the fourth and goal play calls, because the onside
36:13 kick should be the play everyone remembers from this game
36:15 where Taven's deep throw to Cam Camper that set up that last drive.
36:19 But instead, all we're going to mainly remember is that fourth and goal play call.
36:23 But, you know, Indiana, hopefully we'll not have to resort to that next week
36:27 when they play Akron.
36:29 Probably not going to be as drastic as Indiana State game, but like
36:33 if I had to guess, like, that's probably what we'll be talking about
36:36 in a similar style after that game.
36:37 If not, that's a huge problem.
36:39 But thank you all so much for listening to today's show.
36:43 And this hearing us recap Indiana's twenty one fourteen losses Louisville.
36:48 Please just this again, it's still pretty new.
36:51 Thank you so much for listening to the roundtable podcast.
36:53 And if you have any advice, suggestions for what we can do better,
36:57 how we can improve just all that kind of stuff, please just let us know.
36:59 You can also read all of our work on Hoosiers now dot com.
37:02 We have game stories, recaps, all kinds of things, predictions, projections.
37:06 Just if you want to know about Indiana or the Big Ten, like for football
37:10 or basketball, we'll always have you covered with that.
37:12 And yeah, just thank you all so much for listening.