Interdiction of 3 top police officers was an affront to democracy - Atta Akyea | The Probe
The Probe with Emefa Apawu | Interdiction of 3 top police officers was an affront to democracy - Atta Akyea
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NewsTranscript
00:00 Good evening and welcome to tonight's edition of The Probe.
00:02 On rare occasions like this, The Probe gets to probe another probe.
00:06 Now how many probes there are already?
00:08 Well tonight we delve into a critical issue gripping our nation, the IGP leak tape controversies
00:14 and the alleged plot to oust the Inspector General of Police, Dr George Okufudampare.
00:19 Well it's been revealing, it's been intriguing, riveting, sometimes shocking and many more
00:24 so far.
00:25 That's how many describe the parliamentary probe into the IGP leak tape.
00:29 The committee resumed sittings this week, hopefully, but may take a different form and
00:34 we'll get to look at it.
00:35 So far four key witnesses, Chief Bugrinabu, Superintendent Emmanuel Eric Djebi, COP George
00:41 Alex Mensah, Superintendent George Lysander Asare have all appeared before the committee
00:47 and that among other things establish the authenticity of the leaked audio recording,
00:53 investigate the conspiracy to remove the current IGP, investigate any matter contained in the
00:58 audio recording and recommend sanctions for persons found culpable where appropriate.
01:04 These and more are part of the mandate of this particular committee.
01:07 Last week we saw the interdiction of the three officers involved in the matter and an almost
01:12 immediate interdiction of the interdiction in less than 24 hours.
01:16 One thing is for sure, this is not a matter that will go away any time soon.
01:20 I have in the studio, thankfully for the next 60 minutes, the company of the Chairman of
01:24 the seven-member committee that seeks to unravel all the mystery surrounding this controversy,
01:30 Samuel Atachia, MP for Ibuakwa South and a lawyer.
01:33 He's my guest in the studio tonight.
01:35 You're welcome, Mr Atachia.
01:36 As always.
01:37 Okay.
01:38 Well, we'll get to delve into it.
01:40 More tapes, more videos, plus answers to your questions.
01:43 We're live on Joy News Channel.
01:45 We're on Joy 99.7 FM for our radio audience.
01:48 We are on myjoyonline.com, all our social media platforms.
01:51 We are on DSTV Channel 421.
01:53 We are on Radio 4 TV.
01:54 It's 125.
01:55 I am Emifa Apau and this is The Probe.
01:58 You can go anywhere.
01:59 Do send us your questions as always with the hashtag #theprobe.
02:03 Please, be right back.
02:08 On the same way to see President, for them to appoint that commissioner, that commissioner,
02:16 sorry, somebody brought him to the office with him.
02:21 I didn't want to take it.
02:28 The NDC presidential candidate has also assured him that he will remain, retain him if he
02:37 should come to power.
02:40 Secondly, he gives a lot to NDC presidential man and even the vice, the late vice wife,
02:50 they all get slot.
02:52 They said when they are going to do recruit, they give your mama 300 slots.
03:01 And the vice president, the late vice president, they give him 50 slots.
03:09 That's what they said.
03:12 I called Mr. Asare, I called him and asked him who sent the tip into public domain and
03:22 he banged the phone on me.
03:25 Then I called him again.
03:28 Then he refused to talk to me.
03:31 But rather he sent a word through my son that he would deal with me.
03:39 That's what he said to me.
03:42 Commissioner, can you explain what you meant by this IGP is not correct?
03:49 What has he done?
03:52 Madam Chair, I will not deny that fact today, tomorrow or the next day.
03:59 I will make that statement again.
04:04 The current inspector general of police is not managing the police service well.
04:10 It's something I will not run away from.
04:14 I will say it everywhere, anywhere that I go.
04:20 And you can do your own investigations, call police officers underground and find out from
04:26 them.
04:27 Madam Chair, my concern was and is that as we speak, majority of police officers are
04:45 not happy.
04:52 And if the same people are those who are going to police the elections.
05:02 And remember, police officers, they vote.
05:10 Their wives vote.
05:11 Their children vote.
05:12 Their mothers and fathers vote.
05:13 That's my concern.
05:14 Later, upon further enquiries, remember I'm a policeman, for investigations I'm very
05:29 smart.
05:30 But that site, when we meet in camera, you will know who did the recording, who was sent
05:38 by who.
05:40 And on what promise to who.
05:43 You will get it when we meet in camera.
05:45 I have a large book in our home, tape.
05:48 Everything he came to say here on video in his office, the same office.
05:54 His relationship with IGP and contracts, 40,000 votes.
06:05 Well this is the probe here on the Joy News Channel also on Joy 99.7 FM.
06:09 You've been listening to excerpts of what has transpired so far before the ad hoc committee
06:13 in Parliament and the chairman of that committee, Mr. Atachia, is with me in the studio.
06:17 Thank you once again for obliging this.
06:22 Thanks for having me.
06:23 We're indeed grateful for your time.
06:26 I've seen how keenly you were watching proceedings, excerpts of what transpired because you were
06:32 in the midst of it.
06:33 Sure.
06:34 Really, what would you say has been your impression so far?
06:37 It's a very interesting development, you know, because I'm looking at the genesis of what
06:43 we are doing.
06:44 You see, what we are attempting to do and we continue to do is at the instance of the
06:52 deputy minority leader, Honorable Kufi Amabua.
06:58 It is Honorable Kufi Amabua who made a statement on the House floor that there is a leak tape
07:04 which has gone viral and there are very dominant things on the leak tape regarding an attempt,
07:12 he called it a conspiracy, to remove the IGP with the singular aim of getting somebody
07:20 who is malleable and pliable so the MPP will break the 8.
07:25 I think that might be, well that would be more than a, if you like, a political rally,
07:32 you know, statement.
07:33 But the Speaker of Parliament had full control of what was happening in the room and made
07:41 a referral to this committee, considered a committee and made a referral to the committee.
07:46 But I believe, MFA, it is very important that people understand what the Speaker of Parliament
07:52 said the remit of the committee is.
07:56 So that, I mean, we disabuse our minds about, oh, are these individuals going to be the
08:02 next appointor of a new IGP or what?
08:06 Are we even the appointor of an IGP?
08:09 So if you permit me...
08:10 Well, these are mandates that we'll be getting into.
08:12 Okay, then fine.
08:13 It's key because I see that it runs through in terms of the questions that have come up
08:15 in terms of whether you are done with your work and why you are still going on amongst
08:19 others.
08:20 But just last week, before we went on the weekend break, for instance, we saw an interdiction.
08:27 Elise, the three officers that appeared before your committee, we saw an interdiction of
08:32 these officers and then an almost immediate referral of this particular decision.
08:37 As chairman of the committee, were you surprised at that decision?
08:40 I was very much surprised because, you see, when people have elected to testify on oath
08:46 and on their own volition, they do not have any sword hanging on their heads that, look,
08:52 I mean, if you come here and you tell the truth, I mean, the powers that be might interdict
08:57 you.
08:58 In fact, if they knew that they could be interdicted, they wouldn't come and testify.
09:01 So if we are not careful, you are on the verge of interfering witnesses, blackmailing them
09:06 or intimidating them.
09:08 Well, if the other police officers who should come before the committee to testify and we
09:13 have this clear understanding that, oh, if you open your mouth now, you'll be interdicted,
09:19 then the committee will be deprived of the benefit of witnesses who help us and aid us
09:25 to come to the conclusions in terms of the findings of fact and the rest of it.
09:30 So it was very, very serious.
09:32 Did we see that as more like an interference of the job of the committee?
09:35 No dispute about it.
09:37 It was a raw and direct interference with what the committee was attempting to do because
09:43 we depend on these witnesses to work.
09:47 If you care to know, it is their testimonies that we are supposed to listen in total and
09:52 get to some conclusions.
09:55 The people who were purported to have been interdicted were in the middle or if you like
10:00 the beginning of their testimony.
10:04 Is it an attempt to blackmail them into keeping silent?
10:08 Do you want to gawk them with the fear of they being dealt with if they speak some more?
10:14 And what is the interdiction supposed to achieve?
10:17 When a committee of parliament has invited them, they didn't come to the committee on
10:22 their own volition.
10:23 They are obeying the powers of an arm of government as enshrined in the constitution.
10:28 A few people come to terms with the fact that when a committee of parliament is sitting
10:34 by the terms of the constitution, they have the status of a high court.
10:40 They can bring witnesses to the committee, they swear them on oath and the rest of it.
10:45 It was an affront to democracy that anybody attempted to interdict the individuals whilst
10:52 they were beginning to testify in the matter.
10:55 And then almost immediately, almost like 24 hours, we saw a reversal of it.
11:00 Did your committee interfere in any way?
11:02 Do you know what led to that reversal?
11:04 Well I think it dawned on those who took the decision.
11:08 I don't have any insider dealing as to how the decision was taken.
11:13 But whoever took the decision and maybe the kind of public uproar that greeted that singular
11:19 decision of interdiction, they realized that it was a very serious mistake and they were
11:25 good enough to reverse it.
11:26 So so far, I'm glad that they saw how serious the interdiction vis-a-vis the committee's
11:35 work was.
11:36 They decided that they should suspend the interdiction.
11:39 And it's good for everybody.
11:41 Okay, well so you would say that from where you sit, your committee did not reach out
11:45 in any way to find out about this particular interdiction and then the subsequent reversal
11:50 you would say?
11:51 Well because it was almost simultaneous, it became moot.
11:55 But what we have on paper is very simple.
11:59 The individuals who have appeared before us are no longer under interdiction, which will
12:04 give them the liberty and the free will to testify.
12:08 Okay, well as we speak, three key police chiefs have appeared before the committee.
12:13 Are there more officers that you've reached out to?
12:17 We've heard a possibility of the IGP appearing before the committee.
12:21 What really are we to expect?
12:22 I know you're having an in-camera for this week.
12:25 Let's talk about whether you have other police officers that you've invited before the committee.
12:31 In fact, what is filtering out of the committee's investigation is a second tip.
12:40 It was the first one, which I want to call the leak tip, which Honorable Amaku Fibuwa
12:49 spoke about.
12:50 In Parliament.
12:51 In Parliament.
12:52 And on the basis of that, a referral was made, a committee was constituted, and given some
12:57 remit to go ahead and do it.
12:59 Now, when we sat and were touching the preliminary issues, and I was very much surprised people
13:07 talking about that, you should have started everything in-camera.
13:11 I felt that that does not occur with common sense, because the tape which Honorable Amaku
13:18 Fibuwa spoke about had gone viral.
13:20 It was already in the public domain.
13:22 So why are we agreeing to do an in-camera then?
13:24 Yes, because now there is a necessity to fish out and substantiate what is on the tape,
13:31 which will bring certain matters, I mean, which are very serious and might have national
13:36 security implications.
13:38 To where in our discretion we believe that, oh, this is for public consumption, why not?
13:43 And where we think that, oh, if this thing should come out, it will hurt national security.
13:49 We will not have it, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, in the open, and we go in-camera.
13:56 So this is a right that we have, and we have as a committee, not, I wouldn't say right,
14:00 but a discretion to exercise, so that we don't, we don't hit the common wheel.
14:06 So far, don't you think that everything that has happened so far, at least the public hearing
14:10 that we've seen, hurts the image of the Ghana Police Service to a large extent?
14:14 Well, to some extent, not to a large extent.
14:18 Because right now, let's just be very, very honest.
14:22 What is the evidence, apart from the tape?
14:25 So we need to now go into, is it the case that somebody was trying to conspire to remove
14:31 an IGP for the basis of breaking the 8th?
14:35 Is this an MPP conspiracy?
14:39 Is the IGP an enemy of MPP?
14:42 Is it a matter that if people claim that this man is not good for MPP, vis-a-vis the upcoming
14:47 elections, that is an in-camera hearing.
14:50 You need to, excuse me to say, substantiate all the allegations.
14:54 If not, then it's a serious matter of concern.
14:57 If you are unable to substantiate the allegations, then first of all, you will then to your own
15:02 bona fides, and you might have malice aforethought, or you might even have an interest in the
15:07 rest of the matter.
15:08 So these are matters of grave consequences that will crave the indulgence of the general
15:14 public that it should give us the common sense and also wisdom to look at it in camera.
15:19 So it means that the rest of the hearings that you're going to be doing on this particular
15:23 matter all will be in camera, or there will be at some point...
15:26 It will not be all.
15:28 It will be in camera if in our judgment the issues to be discussed and interrogated have
15:35 national security implications.
15:37 Okay.
15:38 Sure.
15:39 Okay.
15:40 We'll talk about what will happen this week.
15:41 We have a lot of questions from the public that we'll have to delve into.
15:43 But at the last count, there was one whole leaked tape that you were looking at as a
15:50 committee.
15:51 You've talked about a second tape.
15:52 We've seen some videos as well.
15:53 At the last count, how many tapes, how many videos are before the committee?
15:57 There is no video before the committee.
16:00 What is very interesting that there are several videos that have gone viral.
16:06 Very interesting videos.
16:07 Unfortunately, nobody's brought these videos to us.
16:10 But if they should come to us...
16:11 Can I give the videos to you?
16:13 Well, you can give the video to me.
16:15 Okay.
16:16 If it comes to the committee, we confront those who are in the video.
16:20 And that is, if you like, a more serious piece of video.
16:23 Because the audio recording hasn't gotten more superiority than the video.
16:30 Because the video, you see a whole cinematography, people speaking.
16:34 I don't need to give it to you.
16:36 Looks like you have the videos already.
16:37 I don't have any video.
16:38 Because you are describing the details of the video.
16:41 Yes, I'm saying that a video has more strength.
16:45 For instance, we are being videoed here, the two of us.
16:48 And you can see me talking to you.
16:50 So it has more substance and meaning than an audio.
16:54 So the body language and everything is captured and that kind of thing.
17:00 So a video evidence is a more serious piece of evidence.
17:03 Okay.
17:04 But you had up to September 10 or so for this work to be done.
17:08 Today is September 10.
17:09 It looks like you are nowhere near end of work.
17:12 Is that the case, if I heard right?
17:13 Well, we are just beginning.
17:15 And also...
17:16 Have you asked for an extension?
17:17 What exactly is the process?
17:18 Not yet.
17:19 We always have the liberty to let the speaker know that maybe we thought we were going to
17:24 read the footnote of a book.
17:28 Not knowing that, of a page.
17:29 Not knowing that it's a whole page you have to read.
17:32 So the speaker himself did not know the wealth of the evidence we need to unearth.
17:38 And therefore, if we approach the speaker that we need an extension to complete the
17:41 job, I don't think he's going to say no.
17:43 Okay.
17:44 So what will a typical Tuesday, come Tuesday, God willing, what will it look like for the
17:48 committee?
17:49 Who is appearing?
17:51 What exactly will happen on Tuesday?
17:55 On Tuesday, all the individuals who have done what I would call the preliminary talking
18:03 on oath will come back with their lawyers.
18:06 Chief Pugrinabo, Chief OPLX.
18:07 Yes.
18:08 George Mensah.
18:09 Yes.
18:10 Emmanuel Gibi.
18:11 Yes.
18:12 George Asare.
18:13 Sure.
18:14 The four of them.
18:15 They should come back with their lawyers.
18:16 And also, the most prominent person whose name is being bandied about, the IGP himself.
18:23 The IGP himself should also come with his lawyers.
18:26 On Tuesday?
18:27 On Tuesday.
18:28 An invitation has been sent to him already?
18:29 We've sent every invitation to all those who matter.
18:32 We've given them all the videos that we have transcribed on paper.
18:37 We've given their transcription to them.
18:39 We've also done what is very, very needful.
18:42 All the proceedings captured so far, we've given it to them.
18:46 That they will know who said what and who said what before they appear before us.
18:50 Why specifically do you need the IGP in all this?
18:53 Well, because grave allegations have been made against him.
18:58 Grave.
18:59 Of serious consequences.
19:01 And I kept telling people that the committee is not the forum to appoint an IGP.
19:08 That's the first instance.
19:10 And we do not have malice or forethought against the IGP.
19:14 The IGP's distraction is no benefit to the committee.
19:18 But we won't sit down for the IGP to be disgraced and insulted without giving him a hearing.
19:26 And by inviting him to, does it not hurt the institution, the Ghana Police Service?
19:31 No.
19:32 That's the thought of some people.
19:33 Well, that is very banal because you see, if we give the IGP the opportunity to hallow
19:40 his name, then that is the way democracy should go.
19:45 But his image, the reason why you are inviting him, we heard all that in public.
19:49 Yes.
19:50 Now you're giving him the opportunity to hallow his name in camera?
19:53 Yes, because of what we consider as national security consideration.
19:58 If it becomes very necessary to let the IGP speak to the cameras, why not?
20:04 I'm saying that...
20:05 At what point will it become necessary?
20:06 Because most of the allegations were made in public.
20:08 It's out there already.
20:10 Well, the allegations have been made, some serious allegations have been made in public.
20:15 But the substance of the allegations have not been made in public.
20:19 That is to say, the evidential support for those allegations, what we are going to unearth.
20:24 So which piece of evidence should we give to the public that will not hurt national
20:29 security?
20:30 We exercise that discretion.
20:31 Okay, so this Tuesday will be the final leg, or it would...
20:35 Well, we'll see how it pans out, but it's going to be a very serious engagement because
20:41 all of them will be seated.
20:42 What if the IGP does not show up?
20:45 Oh, I do not believe he will disrespect the constitution.
20:50 You see, his appointment is premised on the constitution.
20:53 And therefore, if there's a constitutional undertaking that he should respect, I don't
21:00 believe anybody, even his lawyers, will advise him that disrespect a committee of parliament.
21:06 Mind you, it's like the committee of parliament is an extension of the parliament.
21:13 And if you can bring ministers of the executive to be interrogated in parliament, increased.
21:21 Why would the IGP say I'm above the constitution?
21:24 So I credit him with a lot of soundness.
21:28 He's one person I respect also.
21:30 I mean, he's not a little man.
21:33 If you look at his credentials, I don't believe it will come there that the IGP will say that
21:38 I am not going to come to the parliament.
21:42 Then he has the whole opportunity to hallow his name.
21:46 Will it be a wholesale approach, sort of, that will have all the other four witnesses
21:50 there whilst the IGP is also interrogated by the committee?
21:56 There is nothing more ennobling to face your accusers.
22:01 There's nothing which is redemptive.
22:04 Oh, this is what you were saying about this man.
22:08 This man is going to say something about it.
22:11 He goes on to put his case across.
22:14 If you believe he should be cross-examined, he should cross-examine him.
22:17 He's here physically.
22:19 I do not see anything which is so helpful to the system and the establishment, and even
22:25 to the media and the general public, than to give an opportunity for people who are
22:30 making very serious allegations to repeat the allegations before the most prominent
22:35 person in the centre of this activity, the IGP.
22:39 And you also have the opportunity to ask them questions.
22:41 And they will glean meaning and substance from the crossfire, if you want to call it
22:46 that way.
22:47 How long will we be shut out from this whole process?
22:50 The public, as a media, we're all interested.
22:52 How long are you going to shut us out?
22:54 Well, maybe let's give ourselves about three hours of a shutout.
23:00 Depending on, you know, lawyers could also be very laborious and tedious in the way they
23:06 want to present their matters.
23:08 We'll see.
23:09 But I think when it's necessary for the public to come into the space, why not?
23:16 Public will come to the space.
23:17 But when it is frightening that what is ongoing is not good for national security, we have
23:23 to shut the public out.
23:25 Okay.
23:26 In all this though, have we had any show of interest from the Ghana Police Council, for
23:31 instance, amongst others, in the work that the committee is doing so far?
23:34 Have we had any reach-outs in terms of what you're doing so far?
23:37 No.
23:38 They've not approached us relating to any matter.
23:42 They can only come to us to testify in relation to our remit.
23:49 I do not think the police council has the power to direct how parliament should work.
23:54 Understand?
23:55 They are supposed to assist the president in the running of the police service.
24:01 That is the first thing.
24:02 But we are very open and amenable to all kinds of views that will come.
24:09 And then we look at it holistically and also do what is right.
24:16 And I want to assure the general public that we are going to do what is right.
24:20 There is no incentive to disgrace the IGP.
24:23 I want to stress this to people.
24:26 He's not on trial.
24:27 He's not on trial.
24:28 At the end of the day, certain things have been said about him.
24:32 And guess what?
24:34 When Adam sinned, God asked the question, "Adam, where are you?"
24:40 That question sort of opposed what we call the Aldi or Therian Party rule.
24:46 He had the other side.
24:49 See, we are not a committee that will hear the allegations against the IGP without giving
24:57 an opportunity to hear his side of the story.
25:00 So the principle of natural justice has been espoused in parliament via the committee.
25:08 And I don't see why anybody should say that he will not come and, if you like, help himself,
25:14 as it were.
25:15 Okay.
25:16 So earlier you wanted to get into the remit of the committee because we've heard at least
25:22 the lawyer, Yunus Afosini, for instance, amongst others, we've heard some security analysts
25:26 also mention the fact that authentication was key in terms of this particular leak tape
25:31 for the committee.
25:33 Once that has been done, what else do you want?
25:36 Your work is done.
25:37 Well, it is probably they've not processed the proceedings properly.
25:44 It was Chief Bugrinabu who said he did the taping.
25:47 That is the very beginning of the interrogation.
25:51 Now when he was off the witness stand, some individuals came and said, "This is not the
26:00 full tape.
26:01 It's been edited," which is to say that there is something that Chief Bugrinabu said which
26:08 others are trying to contradict.
26:11 You heard us asking questions, "Do you accept this as your voice?"
26:19 And some of them said, "Yes, as for this one, I accept it, but as for this one, I do
26:23 not accept it."
26:24 So we gave them the opportunity to underline what they accept and what they do not accept.
26:30 So in their minds, we're talking about the unedited tape and the edited tape.
26:37 You're fine.
26:38 So if that is so, then there must be a tape that nobody can contradict.
26:45 Some people believe that there is a tape which is not before the committee.
26:50 So we've gotten another tape which we want to confront them.
26:56 Is this tape authentic for all purposes?
27:01 And is this tape representative of what transpired in the offices at OSU of Chief Bugrinabu?
27:13 That's where we begin to...
27:14 So this new tape you have is also related to the first one.
27:17 It's completely different.
27:18 It's an extended version of the first.
27:21 Yes, more detailed.
27:24 And even the length of the conversation was over an hour.
27:29 Yeah, that's a more serious tape and conversation.
27:32 Well, let's chew on that briefly and take a quick break.
27:35 I'm not leaving your questions out.
27:37 Forgive me if you think I'm doing that, but we'll get into all your questions so far,
27:41 a number of them.
27:43 This is The Probe and my guest is Loya Samo'ola-Tachia, Chairman of the Parliament's Ad Hoc Committee.
27:48 We'll take a quick break.
27:49 We'll be right back.
27:50 Please stay with us.
27:57 Thanks for sticking with us.
27:58 And interestingly, we've been talking about Habitat Fair on the break.
28:00 And when he was Minister for Works and Housing, we must say we are grateful you really supported
28:05 Habitat Fair and we are indeed grateful.
28:08 Is that right, Tachia?
28:09 And we are having another one and we are extending that invitation to you.
28:12 That is fine.
28:13 This weekend.
28:14 Thank you so much once again.
28:15 Well, let's get into the audience questions and I'm sure the mandate issues will come
28:19 up.
28:20 We were talking about it before we went on the break.
28:22 And this one from Tete says, can you provide an overview of the committee's mandate and
28:25 objectives in investigating the leaked tape of controversies and plot to oust the IGP?
28:30 We'll get into it.
28:31 Simon says, what specific steps has the committee taken to ensure a thorough and unbiased investigation
28:37 into these allegations?
28:38 Tete says, could you shed light on the timeline for the investigation and when the committee
28:43 expects to reach its conclusion?
28:46 William says, what are the key findings or preliminary observations that the committee
28:50 has made so far?
28:53 Justice says, have there been any challenges or obstacles faced by the committee during
28:57 the course of the investigation and how have they been addressed?
29:00 First five, let's get into this.
29:03 So it takes us to the issue about the mandates.
29:05 Yes.
29:06 You know, you are establishing authenticity, investigating the conspiracy.
29:11 Yes.
29:12 Let's go into it.
29:13 Okay.
29:14 So the terms of reference of the committee are captured as follows.
29:17 And I want to read it verbatim.
29:20 The authenticity of the leaked recording.
29:25 Investigate the conspiracy to remove the current Inspector General of Police.
29:29 Investigate any other matter containing the audio recording.
29:35 Find sanctions to persons found culpable where appropriate.
29:39 Make recommendations for reforms where necessary.
29:43 Make such other recommendations and consequential others as the committee may deem appropriate.
29:49 Okay.
29:50 Yes.
29:51 So six.
29:52 Six key mandates.
29:54 Broad and far-reaching.
29:55 All of them.
29:56 So it goes beyond just authenticating the leaked audio.
30:00 Yes.
30:01 And even investigate other matters on the table.
30:05 That is very serious.
30:06 Okay.
30:07 Well, so Tete, that's your response on that, the terms of reference.
30:11 Let's get into the next one.
30:12 Simon is asking what specific steps the committee is taking to ensure a thorough and unbiased
30:17 investigation into these allegations.
30:18 If you see what is going on at the moment, I've said and I keep saying that I do not
30:24 believe that there is somebody on this committee who has an evil program to mess up anybody.
30:31 As a matter of fact, apart from the IGP that I know, all the witnesses, I've never met
30:36 them before.
30:37 I've never had any interaction with them at all.
30:40 So in the first instance, you should credit us with some goodness that we are not here
30:46 to round down anybody.
30:48 After all, we didn't originate the thing.
30:50 But at some points, there were those who said that as chairman of the committee, you actually
30:54 shielded some questions and all from the committee members.
30:58 I'm sure that has been brought to your attention.
31:00 Yes, it was brought to my attention because this is what we're talking about, that if
31:05 we're not careful, we pry into national security matters.
31:09 Okay.
31:10 So if we're a member of the committee and you don't weigh the issues critically, and
31:15 also be strategic in what we're doing, we might do certain things that will hurt national
31:21 security.
31:22 So I have to exercise my power as the chairman of the committee to bring them, rein them
31:27 in and bring them into line.
31:28 It was not oppressive.
31:29 I was only drawing the attention to the fact that if you are not careful, your line of
31:33 questioning will bring some national security to the fore, which we are not supposed to
31:38 do.
31:39 Okay.
31:40 Now, Tichy says you should shed light on the timeline for the investigation and when the
31:43 committee expects to reach your conclusion.
31:45 A lot of people were concerned about the timelines.
31:48 We were also very much concerned about the timeline because the members of the committee
31:52 are supposed to be in their constituency.
31:54 If we are talking about time consciousness, we are very, very keen to ensure that we bring
32:00 it to closure.
32:01 But we can't truncate the critical issues in the name of time.
32:07 And that will be a short change that will never be forgiven.
32:10 So now we are just trying to unfold the evidence, trying to, I mean, sort of dig out the evidence.
32:18 And that will determine how we end.
32:20 Okay.
32:21 William would want you to share the key findings or preliminary observations that the committee
32:25 has made so far.
32:26 The preliminary and the key observations are with you, the general public.
32:31 They were the matters that you could see, the demeanor of the witnesses, the way they
32:36 answered questions.
32:38 But we are yet to use the comprehensiveness of the evidence to come to the findings of
32:44 fact.
32:45 So it is too premature for me to sit here and by myself come to some judgment or the
32:50 other.
32:51 It should abide the comprehensiveness of the evidence.
32:54 And then we'll make the findings of fact and then hopefully we'll make the recommendations
32:58 to the House floor.
32:59 Okay.
33:00 Justice wants to know if there have been any challenges or obstacles faced by the committee
33:03 during the course of the investigation so far and how you've addressed it.
33:07 So far, I've not had any challenge at all.
33:09 Okay.
33:10 And it's been good.
33:11 Yeah.
33:12 Okay.
33:13 Yeah.
33:14 Let's get into the next part of questions so we can take as many questions as possible
33:15 tonight.
33:16 It's about the audience.
33:17 And Theodore, this one is from Theodore says, how is the committee ensuring transparency
33:21 and accountability throughout the investigative process?
33:24 I think he's been speaking a bit to that.
33:26 Christy says, what measures are being put in place to protect the integrity of the evidence
33:30 and maintain confidentiality is also key.
33:33 Gladys says, are there any potential implications or consequences for those found responsible
33:38 for the leak tapes or the alleged plot to oust the IGP?
33:41 John says, how will the committee's final report and recommendations be communicated
33:45 to the public and relevant authorities?
33:48 We see what steps, if any, we'll be taking to prevent similar incidents from occurring
33:53 in the future.
33:54 Kofi Isaac, this one is, my first question is, why should Bouguere N'Abou involve himself
34:01 in the appointment of the IGP of a whole country when he knows that chiefs are forbidden to
34:05 play active politics?
34:06 OK.
34:07 Tony Nwawadosa says, this is a wasted effort and taxpayers' money.
34:13 Is it possible for anyone or group to oust the IGP appointed by the president when it
34:18 is clear to everyone that the constitution allows him to appoint and fire whosoever he
34:22 appoints?
34:23 I have more that I'm seeing on the timeline that we'll get into.
34:26 So maybe briefly, I'm sure some of the things that you've been talking about, transparency
34:31 and accountability throughout the investigative process and protecting the integrity of the
34:35 evidence, we'll box Theodore and Christy's question together.
34:38 Well, the committee should never sort of undermine his own work.
34:43 So I don't see why he would break confidentiality and throw very relevant and sensitive matters
34:51 into the public domain.
34:52 Don't expect it from the committee.
34:54 What we are going to do, that we'll make sure that we protect the evidence as much as possible,
35:00 and then we'll use the evidence to come to conclusions of fact, and then we'll make the
35:06 recommendations.
35:08 In that process, I expect every member of the committee to be very confidential as well,
35:14 including even the clerks of parliament.
35:16 That's what we're going to do.
35:17 We do not seek to embarrass anybody.
35:20 I've said it several times, that it is not the business of the committee to vilify the
35:26 IGP.
35:28 We will not have any benefit if the IGP is disgraced.
35:34 You will not also sit down there for people to come and disgrace the IGP if they can't
35:39 substantiate the allegations.
35:40 We're going to protect everybody who comes to the committee.
35:44 That is why I could even tell some of the members that, please, this man should not
35:48 answer this question because it has implications for him.
35:52 The committee is supposed to protect everybody who appears before the committee, and to make
35:56 sure that the person testifies freely and in candour.
36:01 We've warned the witnesses that people will be treading on the path of perjury if they've
36:07 sworn on oath, but they came to lie through their teeth on matters that we'll later on
36:15 find out that they were all lies, and paraphernalia.
36:18 We'll package the evidence of perjury to the attending general for those individuals who
36:22 are witnesses to be prosecuted.
36:25 We've made this all clear.
36:26 We want true candour.
36:28 Come and tell the committee the truth of the matter.
36:31 Don't come and tell the committee your pain and your emotions.
36:34 We are not interested in those things, but we are observing also the emotions of the
36:39 witnesses, whether the evidence is tainted by their emotions.
36:42 That will separate the wit from the truth.
36:44 So far, have we had that?
36:45 Well, you could see people in pain.
36:47 I mean, you yourself, you could see how some people are talking and how they feel about
36:52 it, their judgment on the IGP and the rest of it.
36:55 You could see them talking, and you can't gag them.
36:58 It is for us to see how we hear things in camera, and how we also have to let the public
37:05 know what is going on.
37:06 And that will be the end of our work.
37:08 Well, in all this though, to what end?
37:10 The committee will end its work.
37:12 And Gladys, I think, was also trying to find out the potential implications or consequences
37:16 for those found responsible.
37:18 What really will happen after this?
37:19 We have to make...
37:20 Another committee.
37:21 We have to...
37:22 Nothing happens.
37:23 We have to make recommendations to the House floor.
37:28 And I'm tempted to believe that those recommendations will be ferried to the appointee, the president.
37:34 And that is how we end our remedy.
37:36 And he decides whether to...
37:37 If anybody wants to use the committee's report for any other thing, that is up to the generality
37:45 of the public.
37:46 You understand?
37:47 Because if the committee comes out with certain findings and somebody says that, "Oh, this
37:52 is not how we are seeing," and you want a declaration in the Court of Confidential Reduction
37:56 that because of this is what we expect, that is up to you.
37:59 But the committee is not an appointing authority.
38:03 Let me stress this, and stress this critically.
38:05 We're not supposed to even, excuse me, to overhaul the entire police service.
38:10 But you're supposed to make recommendations for reforms where necessary.
38:14 Oh, we will do serious...
38:17 When we glean meaning from the evidence, the recommendations will come.
38:22 And guess what?
38:24 Recommendations are supposed to be recommendations.
38:27 And the recommendations are not going to be the basis to sort of remote control the president
38:33 as to how you work on the police service.
38:37 The recommendations should inform the president as to some of the issues that were raked out
38:44 of the committee's work.
38:48 And it should guide him and help him.
38:50 Are you hopeful that whatever will come out of this committee, your recommendations and
38:54 everything else that you put in the final committee, will really be acted upon by the
38:58 president?
38:59 I think the president has the nation's best interests at heart.
39:05 And if there are matters in the service, and guess what?
39:08 The Ghana police service, which has serious implications for the health of the security
39:15 of the state.
39:16 I know that as a serious president, he should be able to deal with those matters.
39:20 Thankfully, you're a lawyer as well.
39:22 And there are those who have the view that maybe we should rather be pushing for a commission
39:25 of inquiry.
39:26 And after all this, at least, you trigger that for that to happen.
39:30 Well, I've read material on a commission of inquiry.
39:36 But MFR, let's bear in mind that people underestimate the power of parliament.
39:42 Painfully so.
39:43 You see, the parliament of Ghana, as defined under the constitution, is not an appendage
39:50 of the executive.
39:51 It's an arm.
39:52 It's an arm of government.
39:55 So therefore, if the president should appoint a commission of inquiry, the president as
40:00 an executive can do that.
40:02 Why can't parliament also put together a committee and come out with something which will benefit
40:08 the country?
40:09 Because of the binding nature of the two.
40:12 But when he appoints a commission of inquiry, you see, the recommendation of the committee
40:18 of inquiry will not bind the president.
40:20 They should only inform him.
40:22 So what is the point of saying that parliament should ignore its work because there is also
40:28 another dimension of investigating matters of public nature, which is a commission of
40:32 inquiry?
40:33 That is where, I mean, the problem is.
40:36 And we shouldn't mix the two.
40:37 Well, then you disagree with those who say it's a wasted effort.
40:41 Public fans say, I think it came up earlier.
40:43 Yes.
40:44 I mean, it's like, so he wants parliament to close down then.
40:47 Because it's an extension of parliament.
40:49 But when parliament is working through its committees, as enshrined in the constitution,
40:54 how can you say it's a waste of time?
40:56 It's a poor understanding of the parliament's work.
40:58 OK.
40:59 Well, I see a question also about whether the committee is going to brief the public
41:03 after the in-camera session, because we are all interested.
41:07 Yes, certainly.
41:08 The committee's report will be made public via the debate at the plenary.
41:15 What he's asking is, after Tuesday, for instance, when you do the in-camera hearing,
41:20 will you brief the media?
41:22 Generally?
41:23 Oh, certainly.
41:24 We'll brief the media.
41:25 Yes.
41:26 We'll be more transparent.
41:27 Yes.
41:28 You see, we should respect the media as a fourth estate of the realm.
41:30 OK.
41:31 And not to re-hold, excuse me, say, information from them, provided always that the information
41:38 we have, if it's released into the public domain, will not undermine national security.
41:44 OK.
41:45 That's not that we say.
41:46 But to say that, oh, we won't let the media have a sense of what is going on, will not
41:51 reflect well on us.
41:53 OK.
41:54 I'm seeing the most questions on this show tonight, but this one is from Kwiku, who says,
41:57 are you able to explain what the possible outcomes of this committee are?
42:01 All the likely scenarios that can occur with this parliamentary committee?
42:04 Well, I think, let me give him an answer in my local language.
42:09 [Speaking in local language] Until the whole gamut of the evidence is brought before us
42:18 and we evaluate it, we'll be able to tell you serious matters.
42:22 But if I'm in this show, I should have the clairvoyance of the outcome of this work,
42:29 then I'm pretending I'm God.
42:32 I'm not God yet.
42:33 Yeah.
42:34 OK.
42:35 So how do you respond to concerns that this committee or your committee swing out of its
42:39 terms of reference by deciding to invite the IGP who had no original role to play regarding
42:44 the leak tape?
42:45 You've been speaking to it, but maybe you can speak directly to them on that.
42:48 Well, it's unfortunate.
42:50 They don't know what is going on, that this committee respects the person of the IGP.
42:56 Some allegations have been made against the IGP.
42:59 Is it not proper in the interest of espousing natural justice principles that should come
43:05 over and confront these accusers?
43:07 Don't you think it would be very, very serious and a miscarriage of justice that the IGP
43:13 is never called upon to come and face the accusers?
43:17 And then the allegations will be one-sided.
43:19 Please, please, we shouldn't go that way.
43:22 OK.
43:23 Sophie is asking how you respond to claims by a section of the public who watch that
43:27 you try to shield the witnesses.
43:29 At least you've been speaking to that.
43:31 Is it really deliberate?
43:32 I never shielded any witness.
43:34 I only warned witnesses about the implications of what they are saying.
43:39 And also, I even said, oh, please don't go there because of the national security implications.
43:46 And if the witness wants to remain silent, I don't say anything.
43:49 The only thing I say is that the witness wants to remain silent, doesn't want to answer.
43:55 Let the records reflect that the witness doesn't want to answer.
43:58 And I leave it as it is.
43:59 Would you say you have been a fair chairman so far?
44:02 Well, I want the public to judge me.
44:04 But I will tell you again and again, I do not have a special interest in getting anybody
44:11 disgraced.
44:12 I will not have any benefit as a person.
44:15 And the committee will not have any benefit as a committee if somebody is disgraced.
44:21 The disgrace of somebody will not be to the credit of the committee.
44:27 The committee is not going to be a platform where we want people disgraced.
44:32 That is why we are saying that certain things will be heard in camera.
44:35 And those who are making wild allegations, if you're unable to substantiate it, then
44:40 it's unfortunate.
44:41 But we believe that it will be fair to everybody, especially when the integrity of a prominent
44:47 person is at stake.
44:49 We make sure that we give the devil his due.
44:52 OK, well, you've talked a lot about national security.
44:55 You've heard it at the committee, for which reason you are doing in-camera.
44:58 Salima doesn't see why we have to do this in-camera hearing.
45:02 But Loretta wants to know which of the issues that have been raised so far, whether it's
45:06 on national security or have any possibility of breaching national security, for which
45:10 reason you are doing this in-camera hearing.
45:12 Well, what is very, very significant about this is that, you know, in the realm called
45:18 Ghana, there's a very prominent person called the IGP.
45:23 The internal security of this nation, you know, in a large measure, revolves around
45:29 this personality.
45:30 People do not see that.
45:33 People do not see that in terms of the Constitution.
45:36 I mean, it's all clear that he's one individual, that internal security has been given to him.
45:43 Yeah, it's a constitutional provision.
45:45 When you go to probably Article 2022, let me read it.
45:55 "The Inspector General of Police shall be the head of the police service and shall,
45:59 subject to the provision of this article and to the control and direction of the police
46:05 council, be responsible for the operational control and administration of the police service."
46:13 And when you go to Article 202, 200 clause 3, "The police service shall be equipped and
46:23 maintained to perform its traditional role of maintaining law and order."
46:29 So if the body that is supposed to control law and order and maintain law and order has
46:38 a head and we want to sort of project certain things which will come and affect the entire
46:46 police service, I'm afraid we want to undermine the law and order arrangement in the country.
46:52 And that's what the Committee of Parliament should not do.
46:55 That is why we are saying some matters will be held in camera.
46:58 And we are doing this for the common will.
47:00 There are a lot of things that are heard in-house.
47:05 Do you know that even cabinet meetings are supposed to be private and confidential?
47:11 And what happens in cabinet should not be heard?
47:14 Why are you complaining that some other matters also should not have similar treatment?
47:19 Because if cabinet decisions are in the public domain, it will undermine the executive's
47:25 work.
47:26 So let's get some of these permutations right and then we'll know that nobody's going wrong
47:30 at all.
47:31 But what is needful and it's for public consumption, we open the door for the press.
47:36 Excuse me, to say very, very important part of the constitutional arraignment.
47:42 To ferry to the general public.
47:44 And we also open ourselves up for questioning.
47:47 If all that we are trying to do is part of trying to engage the general public via this
47:54 huge platform, it tells you that we are not going to do any fetish of an arrangement in
48:00 which it's only the initiated who understand what is going on.
48:03 We are not going to do that.
48:05 But so far, how many petitions would you say the committee has received?
48:10 We have received only one petition and we are yet to interrogate the petition and see
48:15 the necessity to act on it.
48:17 Are you able to tell us what the petition is about?
48:19 For now, if you indulge me, I would like to keep it quiet until the committee takes a
48:25 decision on it.
48:26 Because the committee has not taken a decision on it.
48:29 If you distributed the petition, and I'm tempted to believe that Tuesday morning we will be
48:34 able to take a decision on it, then we will let the general public know.
48:38 This is a petition that has come.
48:41 This is the content of the petition and is within the bounds of decency and law and order.
48:47 And the committee in turn will act on it.
48:49 But what we are hearing is the petition, there's a case in court.
48:54 Is it the same petition that has been brought before?
48:56 It's different.
48:57 It's different.
48:58 As for the writ in court, it's for the consumption of the general public.
49:04 Anybody who is decent and diligent can go to the court and even have the statement of
49:10 claim photocopied.
49:11 We are told there's some 80 officers.
49:13 We are told there's some 80.
49:14 Due for promotion.
49:15 Yes.
49:16 The committee has asked for it.
49:17 So I think the clerk is going to find the document in the court premises and bring it
49:22 to the committee.
49:23 But it appears everything that is happening now and before your committee is really not
49:27 new because we've seen the likes of the Tiburu report and what happened back then in terms
49:32 of corruption and promotions and other matters that came up in the police service.
49:37 Is this something, I ask that because as chairman and you're a lawyer also, I'm sure you're
49:41 a lawmaker as well.
49:43 Does anything really surprise you in terms of the things that you've seen so far?
49:47 It looks like nothing is new.
49:48 Well, this is of a different nomenclature, you know.
49:51 This is the first time there is a tape.
49:56 It's leaked.
49:57 And somebody is trying to say that there's a conspiracy by the political actors of the
50:05 now to kick out an IGP who is working against the establishment.
50:14 And that if this IGP is not removed, chances are that it will cost us from breaking the
50:21 eight.
50:22 These are deep matters which I will tell you to your face.
50:27 It's even inimical to a democracy.
50:30 So matters of corruption, the rest of them and what has been done in the past, they don't
50:35 have this overdrive, if you like.
50:37 And this is the overdrive which is engaging our attention.
50:41 It's all well in the Ghana police service from all that you've seen and heard so far
50:45 as a committee chair, would you say?
50:47 Well, I would say it is very well.
50:50 And a head of an institution at the center of an investigation, it could sort of dampen
50:57 the spirits of those who are following.
50:59 But I can assure you, it is a matter that will bring to closure.
51:06 And then we'll see how it pans out.
51:08 But let the order of the police service continue until we finish our work.
51:14 I do not believe that the forum we have should be the basis of disorder in the Ghana police
51:21 service.
51:22 It shouldn't be so.
51:23 The order and the discipline and decency should continue.
51:27 And then let's see how eventually we have a very, very, very powerful police service
51:34 which is intact after, if you like, this unfortunate intervention in the activities.
51:40 What has surprised you the most as committee chair from all that you've heard so far?
51:46 Well, I don't have so many surprises, no.
51:49 But sometimes the people of the world do not understand the dynamics of politics and the
51:56 rest of it.
51:57 So if you ask me as a person, I'm not very much surprised because some people believe
52:02 that, oh, when there is a space for an IGP, people will go to bed.
52:08 And it's the president who has his cool head and who made the decision.
52:12 Some people might even go and kneel down before the president, oh, please, for Christ's sake,
52:17 I want this man as an IGP.
52:19 He will take the final decision.
52:20 And people are persuading the president left, right, center for the post.
52:24 When they hear that, oh, why is somebody trying to lobby for the position of an IGP, I laugh
52:29 at his con.
52:31 This man is not understanding the dynamics of governance.
52:36 It's very normal.
52:37 The president goes through a lot in terms of how people believe.
52:42 They want X, tan, instead of Y.
52:43 They want Z, da instead of D.
52:46 And all manner of dynamics he needs to grapple with.
52:49 I'm not too surprised.
52:52 The only thing which is that is humanity which is playing up.
52:56 The tendencies of men are just playing up.
52:59 We're wrapping up.
53:00 And thankfully, you're a preacher.
53:01 It's a Sunday evening.
53:03 And if you were to give a word from the Bible, at least as a preacher, to the Ghana police
53:09 service, to all those who are appearing amongst others, and all that is to come and what is
53:13 to happen, what would be your word?
53:15 30 seconds.
53:16 I want to say to everybody that you shall not lay a false charge against your neighbor.
53:21 It's part of the Ten Commandments.
53:23 It's very, very interesting.
53:25 Do not in the name of power, wealth, any other consideration, lie in material particular
53:32 against your neighbor.
53:33 It has spiritual consequences.
53:34 That's what I want to say.
53:36 And that's how we wrap up tonight's edition of The Probe.
53:39 Thank you so much.
53:40 My joy as always.
53:41 My joy as always.
53:42 And we'll be watching the committee closely this week.
53:45 There's more when you log on to myjoyonline.com.
53:47 A Walk with Jesus is up next for our radio audience.
53:49 Prime Take with Muftau is up next on the Joy News Channel.
53:53 I am MFA Powin, the app of the entire team.
53:56 Many thanks for your company as always.
53:58 Thanks.
53:59 Bye.
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