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00:00 Welcome back to New Rockstars, I'm Hector Navarro,
00:02 and today I wanna talk about some recent conversations
00:05 happening online discussing what the DC Entertainment brand,
00:08 based on DC Comics, actually is.
00:10 We just had a great DC film hit theaters,
00:13 and it's not making quite as much money
00:14 as us fans of the movie would have hoped.
00:16 It's a bit lighter, it's family-friendly,
00:18 it's family-oriented, and the internet's talking about
00:21 whether or not Blue Beetle is actually representative
00:23 of DC the brand, or if the movie was just chasing
00:26 the Marvel brand, which has been talked about
00:28 as being lighter, more comedic, more kid-friendly,
00:31 and Disney-fied.
00:32 So is DC only at its best when it's dark?
00:35 Will audiences accept any lighter,
00:37 more all-ages-friendly stories in the DC universe?
00:40 In an effort to try and actually answer this question,
00:42 I went down a bit of a rabbit hole,
00:44 and at the end, I found myself at the source,
00:46 the comic books themselves.
00:48 It's basically impossible to narrow down
00:49 all of comic book history to one comic
00:51 that can help answer this question,
00:53 and I'm sure you can point to various comics
00:54 to try and make your case one way or the other,
00:56 but what about the specific comic published
00:58 by both Marvel and DC together
01:01 that delivers a superhero story that actually compares,
01:03 contrasts, and kind of defines what each of these universes
01:07 or brands actually are?
01:08 I'm talking about JLA Avengers, or Avengers JLA,
01:12 depending on which issue you're reading.
01:14 The four-issue, groundbreaking, genre-defining
01:16 comic book miniseries that came out 20 years ago
01:19 next month in September of 2003,
01:21 from writer Kurt Busiek,
01:23 and the greatest comic book artist of all time,
01:25 and I'm not gonna hear anything otherwise, George Pérez.
01:28 This is it right here.
01:29 Ooh, this is older than some of you people
01:31 watching right now. (laughs)
01:33 This book features the Justice League from the DC universe
01:36 meeting and interacting with the Avengers
01:38 from the Marvel universe,
01:39 and getting involved in an epic cosmic story
01:42 that even gave us meta-commentary
01:43 on what those universes stand for and what the stories do.
01:46 So I'm gonna provide some context for that story,
01:49 highlight some favorite moments,
01:50 and talk about the differences and similarities
01:52 between Marvel and DC to really get to the bottom
01:55 of is DC actually just dark?
01:57 We're gonna find out.
01:58 But before I do, just a real quick reminder
02:00 that New Rockstars is now three channels,
02:02 this main one, the Break Room, and the Deep Dive,
02:04 so make sure you're subscribed to all three
02:06 in case we explore this topic further
02:09 across the new Rockstars-verse.
02:10 Isn't that cool?
02:11 Rockstars-verse, I coined it.
02:13 There's actually a really fun history of DC and Marvel
02:15 doing comic book crossovers that could be its own video,
02:17 but Avengers JLA, which stands for Justice League of America,
02:20 is, I think, the perfect example for this particular topic
02:23 because it shows us characters from the two universes
02:26 actually comparing their realities,
02:28 or brands, with one another.
02:29 In JLA Avengers Part I, in the Marvel universe,
02:32 we see the Grandmaster as he's rudely interrupted
02:35 by a cosmic presence from another universe,
02:37 DC character Krona, the main villain of this series,
02:40 and he will not be denied.
02:42 A month later, the Justice League are fighting off
02:44 Marvel villain Terminus, the Ravager of Worlds,
02:46 at a shopping mall in Iowa,
02:48 and we really get to see how effective the JL is
02:50 as a fighting unit, telepathically linked
02:52 by Martian Manhunter and commanded by master strategist
02:55 in the field, Batman.
02:57 It's awesome.
02:58 Then, at the same time, in the Marvel universe,
02:59 the Avengers are fighting off Starro the Conqueror
03:02 in New York City, and we see how the Avengers work
03:04 as a fighting unit.
03:05 The team's plan to defeat Starro involves letting
03:07 the Scarlet Witch interface with the cosmic starfish
03:10 and use her chaos magic to disrupt
03:12 the extraterrestrial being's ordered, controlling mind,
03:16 and the Avengers make Starro scream.
03:18 It's badass.
03:19 In the DC universe, the Flash is running experiments
03:22 with the JL to try and match the vibrational frequency
03:25 of Terminus' home reality to assess the threat,
03:28 and he succeeds, popping over into the Marvel universe
03:30 and meeting a teen mutant being chased
03:32 by a bigoted, angry mob.
03:34 One of the cornerstones of the Marvel universe
03:36 are the X-Men stories that directly take on themes
03:39 of racism, social inequality, and how marginalized groups
03:42 survive in hostile environments,
03:44 things that characters like the Flash
03:46 don't usually deal with, so here, he's really surprised
03:49 that this mob is acting like this,
03:51 and doubling down after assuming he's a mutant, too.
03:53 Back home in the DC universe, Grandmaster appears
03:56 at the Justice League's Watchtower Moon Base
03:58 and explains everything, confirmed by Wonder Woman's
04:00 golden lasso of Gaia.
04:02 Grandmaster tells the Justice League
04:03 that their universe will die unless 12 items of power,
04:07 six from each universe, are assembled, and that's the plot.
04:10 After telling the heroes that there will be others
04:12 seeking them, Grandmaster exits, and the League agrees.
04:14 He can't be trusted, but they're gonna investigate anyway.
04:17 Then the Justice League travel to the Marvel universe.
04:19 The League are doing reconnaissance,
04:21 observing and reporting, not getting involved.
04:23 Aquaman sees ruthless monarch Doctor Doom in Latveria,
04:26 but Batman tells him not to get involved.
04:28 Martian Manhunter witnesses the devastation
04:30 and genocide of mutants in Genosha,
04:33 but Batman tells him not to get involved.
04:34 Superman sees destruction caused by the Hulk in Michigan,
04:37 but Batman tells him not to get involved.
04:39 And finally, Batman sees the Punisher in New York,
04:42 murdering drug dealers, but, ah, wait a minute,
04:45 this is Batman we're talking about.
04:46 Of course he gets involved.
04:47 We cut to Plastic Man berating bats
04:49 for taking 20 minutes to beat the shit out of Frank Castle,
04:53 and all the Justice League agree that this world is bleak.
04:56 Superman goes on a rant about how this world's heroes
04:59 have allowed this and accuses them of not caring.
05:01 It's really interesting to see how DC's heroes
05:04 respond to the state of the Marvel universe,
05:06 and it makes sense that the Justice League,
05:08 especially Superman, would feel this way.
05:10 After showing up and sending the Justice League
05:12 back to their native reality,
05:13 the Avengers meet the greatest mind of New Genesis, Metron,
05:16 who explains they need to fight the Justice League,
05:18 prevent them from gathering 12 items of power,
05:21 or else their universe will die.
05:22 Again, that's the plot.
05:23 Before Metron disappears,
05:25 he gives the Avengers a mother box
05:26 so they can travel to the DC universe.
05:28 The Avengers then arrive in a futuristic metropolis
05:31 and take down some bank robbers,
05:33 then get mobbed by grateful bystanders who want autographs.
05:36 Captain America reminds the team
05:38 they've got a mission to do,
05:39 and the Avengers see how much this world loves
05:41 and honors its heroes,
05:42 how much the public idolizes their heroes.
05:44 Mutant Quicksilver learns they have a museum
05:47 dedicated to their super speedster, the Flash.
05:49 An entire museum.
05:50 Just the exact opposite experience the Flash had
05:53 when he visited the Marvel universe.
05:54 Cap goes on a rant, accusing this world's heroes
05:57 of building their own advanced cities,
05:59 acting like little tin gods,
06:01 demanding the public's adoration
06:02 instead of protecting its freedoms.
06:04 Again, a really fascinating take on how Marvel's heroes
06:07 would react to the differences in the DC universe,
06:10 and how Steve Rogers, whose origin dealt with
06:12 fighting fascists in World War II,
06:14 would feel about a universe where heroes
06:16 have really helped shape the human world around them.
06:18 And then part one ends with the Justice League showing up,
06:21 Superman accusing the Avengers of being loose cannons,
06:24 and Cap accusing the League of being fascist overlords,
06:26 and the sound of Mjolnir cracking against
06:28 the Man of Steel's face,
06:29 signaling the beginning of the fight
06:31 between the Avengers and the Justice League.
06:33 And oh man, do I love me some comic books.
06:35 So we got some great contrasting between the ideals
06:38 the Justice League and the DC universe represent
06:41 versus the more flawed and challenging Marvel universe,
06:44 filled with bigotry, genocide, and street-level vigilantism.
06:47 Now, of course, there are exceptions within each brand
06:49 to what I just listed, but generally speaking,
06:52 this is one way to look at what the stories
06:54 from the Marvel and DC universes deal with.
06:56 It's been very interesting how in the movie world,
06:58 Marvel has taken on the reputation
07:00 of being light and crowd-pleasing
07:02 because of the MCU following the template
07:04 laid out by the first Iron Man movie,
07:06 which at times felt like an indie comedy
07:08 in the superhero world.
07:09 Back to the story, in part two,
07:11 a contest of champions continues,
07:12 and we see Avenger versus Justice Leaguer
07:14 in some pretty awesome fights.
07:15 The fan favorite, though,
07:16 has to be Captain America versus Batman,
07:18 where we learn that after they feel each other out,
07:20 Batman admits that the super soldier could beat him,
07:23 only that it would take a very, very long time.
07:26 They team up instead to try to get
07:28 to the bottom of all of this.
07:29 One shot energy, huh?
07:32 Okay, I'll try it.
07:33 (explosion booms)
07:36 (upbeat music)
07:42 Whoa, what does one shot's focus chew do?
07:46 (explosion booms)
07:50 I can see it.
07:53 Eternity.
07:57 Whoa, one shot really is all you need.
08:05 Begin your transformation with one shot energy today
08:07 by going to oneshotenergy.com/newrockstars
08:11 for 10% off your order.
08:12 The Justice League heads back to the Marvel universe,
08:15 and Superman calls the people of that world backward,
08:17 which is like the meanest thing Superman's ever said.
08:19 He's pissed that a statue of the Avengers has been defaced,
08:22 and it's like, yeah, man,
08:23 this world is full of people who hate and fear their heroes,
08:26 which is a stark contrast to what Superman is mostly used to.
08:29 In the comics, Clark Kent has, generally speaking,
08:31 had faith that the people of Earth are good,
08:33 and he's usually been proven right.
08:35 Maybe one reason audiences believe
08:37 the DC brand is always dark
08:39 is because their current movie franchise
08:40 has been following the groundwork
08:42 laid by 2013's "Man of Steel,"
08:44 which showed us a really conflicted Superman,
08:46 not knowing if the people of Earth could be trusted,
08:48 if he revealed himself as an alien
08:49 and used his powers to help humanity.
08:51 And a lot of people connected with that take,
08:52 but the issue is, was it the best setup
08:54 for the rest of the DC brand and characters,
08:57 or did it set them up for conflicting ideas of what DC is?
09:01 Meanwhile, back in the comics and back at the Batcave,
09:03 as Steve Rogers looks at a costume display case,
09:06 we see another similarity between Marvel and DC.
09:09 Both Captain America and Batman
09:11 have lost crime-fighting partners,
09:12 Bucky and Robin, Jace and Todd.
09:14 Fun fact, this was two years before both of these
09:17 former sidekicks would return to comics in 2005
09:20 as brain-scrambled villains,
09:21 the Winter Soldier and the Red Hood.
09:23 And then one of my favorite moments in the entire comic,
09:25 Steve Rogers sends a homing beacon back to his reality
09:28 so that the Fantastic Four's Thing can appear
09:30 and gives our heroes a way for them
09:32 to jump around dimensions.
09:33 Thing heads back home, and Batman makes a joke
09:36 about him having a rough-edged charm.
09:38 And Cap defends the Thing by saying
09:40 he may not be sleek and elegant
09:42 like the heroes that Batman works with,
09:43 but Benjamin J. Grimm is one of the finest men he knows.
09:47 It's a great bit, but it's also a perfect summary
09:49 of the more rough-around-the-edges Marvel heroes
09:52 versus the sleek, elegant, really put-together DC heroes.
09:55 I mean, the DC heroes are just very attractive.
09:57 I mean, so are the Avengers, to be fair.
09:59 So are the Avengers.
10:00 Aquaman, speaking of attractive,
10:01 Aquaman later opines on the Avengers,
10:03 saying that the heroes seem less powerful in general
10:06 than at home, and that their world's stacked against them.
10:09 Superman admits they may have to fight harder
10:11 than the Justice League do, but it still isn't enough.
10:14 And from Superman's point of view, he might be right.
10:16 And I just have to mention another awesome bit
10:18 of geeky fan service.
10:19 We see Darkseid with the Infinity Gauntlet.
10:22 What could be the scariest thing in either universe
10:24 is deflated, thankfully, when we learn the gauntlet
10:27 doesn't work in a universe outside of its native one,
10:29 which we also saw in "Loki" season one
10:31 and the "What If" animated series.
10:33 Okay, so tensions are rising between the heroes
10:35 of the Marvel and DC universes.
10:37 And in part three, things start to come together.
10:40 Literally, we see a new history of these universes,
10:43 where Marvel and DC have always been crossing over,
10:45 and just how many similarities there actually are.
10:48 Similar villains, similar traditions,
10:50 similar heroes with gimmicks, and yeah,
10:52 Green Arrow and Hawkeye have a really great rivalry
10:55 going on, but it's just dimensional glitches
10:57 affecting both realities.
10:58 Superman and Captain America can sense
11:00 something's wrong, though, and they let each other know it.
11:03 But Wonder Woman shuts the argument down,
11:05 because they're all heroes, dammit,
11:07 and saving both realities and all the people in them
11:09 is what's most important.
11:10 The Wasp agrees, and the heroes realize
11:12 that both universes are being forced to merge together.
11:16 Then, versions of our heroes from across their own timelines
11:19 like Barry Allen Flash and Hal Jordan Green Lantern
11:22 unite to try and stop this universal merging,
11:24 eventually going back to Grandmaster,
11:26 who shows them what the truth of each universe actually is,
11:29 and it's tragic.
11:30 Years of triumph and tragedy, glory and pain,
11:34 all moments from the histories
11:35 of the DC and Marvel universes.
11:37 We see evil thwarted, nations fall, enemies prosper,
11:41 friends die, hope dashed, hope reborn,
11:44 love and anger and sacrifice and terror,
11:46 loss, rebirth, failure, fury, horror, heartbreak,
11:50 death, betrayal, madness.
11:52 And what's fascinating here is that it's both universes,
11:55 Marvel and DC, put up right next to one another.
11:58 So yes, they're different, they're unique,
11:59 but they're both capable of going to some very dark places
12:02 with their superhero characters.
12:03 And even after characters like Barry and Hal
12:05 see their untimely deaths, and Vision and Wanda
12:08 see the children they are fated to lose,
12:11 they all still agree to take the fight to villain Krona
12:14 to save both universes
12:15 at the expense of their own lives and happiness.
12:18 In part four, our heroes are so united
12:20 that even the schism between Superman
12:22 and Captain America is no more.
12:23 Clark nominates Cap to be their commander,
12:25 who can lead both teams.
12:27 Steve and Clark apologize to one another
12:29 and even confess their own insecurities
12:31 about doing too much or doing too little on their worlds.
12:34 And that's when Captain America gives Superman
12:36 his shield to wield.
12:38 Then we enter the battlefield, and let me tell you,
12:39 to hear Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and more yell,
12:42 Avengers assemble?
12:43 Why, that's just the greatest superhero fan service
12:46 ever made, my friends.
12:47 Avengers Endgame could never.
12:49 Then we see nearly every Marvel character,
12:51 every DC character, fighting nearly every Marvel
12:54 and DC villain, all to make their way to the big bad Krona
12:57 and the salvation of both universes.
12:59 Sacrifice, triumph, everything we know
13:01 these characters are capable of.
13:02 It's what superhero comic books are all about.
13:05 Finally, when Thor is down for the count,
13:07 he throws Mjolnir to Superman, who's worthy of lifting it.
13:10 When the battle is won and reality is restored,
13:13 our heroes bid farewell to each other
13:15 and sum up the DC and Marvel brands.
13:17 Whether they fear they do too much or not enough,
13:19 they keep trying.
13:20 This is the difference between Marvel and DC,
13:23 heroes who feel as though they do too much
13:25 or do too little, but the underlying aspect
13:28 that both universes share is that they have heroes
13:30 who put everything on the line for the rest of their worlds.
13:33 Maybe DC isn't inherently dark,
13:35 but both DC and Marvel superheroes share tragedy
13:37 and triumph in their stories.
13:39 Adding to that notion, DC Comics have published
13:41 some of the greatest comics in history,
13:43 like Watchmen or too many to list Vertigo titles,
13:46 but they're arguably not part of the regular DC universe
13:49 of superheroes.
13:50 And let's be honest, the undeniable gravitational power
13:53 of Batman seems to make all the rest of DC dark,
13:56 even if he's the exception to the rule.
13:58 I don't blame audiences for thinking DC is at its best
14:00 when it's darker, because there have been a ton
14:02 of great Batman movies made, for example,
14:04 but there's never really been like
14:05 a good Plastic Man movie made that's also really funny
14:08 and has real emotion and drama,
14:10 because Plastic Man is a legit great character.
14:12 I don't think it's controversial to say
14:13 that DC needs to build up enough goodwill
14:16 for the studio to take a risk like making a movie
14:18 like Plastic Man and then have that risk pay off.
14:21 If Marvel worked up to that with Guardians of the Galaxy
14:23 and Ant-Man, building up that goodwill,
14:25 then maybe James Gunn can bring DC
14:27 to that sort of goodwill and risk.
14:29 It's a shame that something as great and special
14:32 as Blue Beetle came out at a time
14:33 where audiences aren't fully on board with the DC brand.
14:37 Oh, and also it was released during a historic double strike.
14:39 Pay your writers and actors, studio heads, just pay 'em.
14:42 Come on.
14:43 We all have our own personal connections to these characters,
14:46 and the DC fandom is pretty divided these days.
14:48 I hope it won't always be that way.
14:50 I hope we can come together like the heroes
14:53 from two universes and celebrate what we love
14:55 about DC.
14:56 After all, these stories are about hope and heroism.
14:59 I want folks who love darker DC material
15:01 to continue being excited and enthusiastic about DC.
15:03 And I also want fans who love more optimistic DC material
15:07 to be stoked about the future.
15:08 Anyways, thanks for letting me tell you all
15:10 about my formative DC Marvel comic book,
15:13 the one that made me love both universes.
15:15 And a reminder to go read it yourself if you're interested.
15:18 Follow me over at Heroes Reforged on YouTube,
15:20 and we'll see you next time.
15:22 Bye.
15:22 (upbeat music)
15:25 (upbeat music)
15:28 (upbeat music)
15:30 (upbeat music)
15:33 (upbeat music)
15:35 (upbeat music)
15:38 (upbeat music)
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