KHABAR Meher Bokhari Kay Saath | ARY News | 30th August 2023
#chairmanpti #ciphercase #shahmahmoodqureshi #officialsecretsact #election2023 #arifalvi #inflation
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Meher Bokhari
Guests:
- Barrister Salman Safdar (PTI Lawyer)
- Senator Kamran Murtaza JUIF
- Shahbaz Rana (Economist Analyst)
Where is 'missing' cipher copy? PTI Lawyer's big statement
Does new Official Secrets Act law apply to PTI chief?
Kamran Murtaza's analysis on rising inflation
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Meher Bokhari
Guests:
- Barrister Salman Safdar (PTI Lawyer)
- Senator Kamran Murtaza JUIF
- Shahbaz Rana (Economist Analyst)
Where is 'missing' cipher copy? PTI Lawyer's big statement
Does new Official Secrets Act law apply to PTI chief?
Kamran Murtaza's analysis on rising inflation
Category
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NewsTranscript
00:00 Assalam-o-Alaikum and good evening.
00:07 I am Meher Bukhari.
00:14 The Cipher case has been given 14 days judicial remand by the Special Court.
00:23 The Chairman of the PTI has filed three requests in the court and the judge has given up his right to speak.
00:30 The Special Court has also raised objections on the trial in Attock Jail.
00:35 The Chairman of the PTI has given a statement and during the hearing, the Chairman of the PTI, Bukhla, has said that
00:39 the case of the Official Secret Act against the Chairman of the PTI is not possible.
00:43 The Cipher case has been made for political revenge.
00:46 The Chairman of the PTI has filed three requests to the Public Prosecutor's Office and the Public Prosecutor's Office to approve the notification of the Ministry of Justice.
00:55 The Ministry of Justice has also filed a request to the High Court of Islamabad to approve the notification of the Ministry of Justice.
00:59 In this request, the right of the judge of the Supreme Court of India has also been challenged.
01:04 The request states that the judge of the ATC court does not meet the basic standards of the required eligibility.
01:11 The Supreme Court has requested the Supreme Court to approve the notification of the Ministry of Justice.
01:16 The Chairman of the PTI, Bukhla, has raised questions on the arrest of the Chairman of the PTI.
01:21 The history of the arrest of the Chairman of the PTI is not clear.
01:25 His legal team was deliberately kept in the dark and the trial of the dangerous accused is being held in the jail.
01:31 In this most important case, both the Party Chairman and the Vice Chairman are in jail. Both are on judicial remand.
01:36 In this case of the Cipher, the Chairman of the PTI, Vice Chairman Shah Mehmood Qureshi and Asad Umar were named.
01:41 The case was filed under Section 34 of the Pakistan Constitution along with the Cipher 5 and 9.
01:48 In this FIR, it was said that on 7 March 2022, the Secretary of State of that time received the Cipher from Washington.
01:55 On 5 October 2022, the case was filed and the charge was made that the Chairman of the PTI, Vice Chairman of the PTI
02:01 was involved in the distribution of classified information of his associates to illegal individuals.
02:07 Due to this wrong action of the Chairman of the PTI, the entire Cipher security system of the state and the secret communication system of foreign countries, Pakistan missions, has been compromised.
02:17 And the foreign powers benefited and the state was harmed.
02:20 But today, the Vice Chairman of the PTI, Bukhla, is rejecting all these claims.
02:24 Let's talk to the criminal lawyer and the former Prime Minister's lead counsel, Salman Sabdar.
02:29 Salman Sabdar, thank you very much for being with us.
02:31 We met Imran Khan today.
02:33 You said that the Cipher copy was lost from him.
02:36 But was it lost as the Prime Minister or later when he stepped down as the Prime Minister?
02:42 Can you clarify that, sir?
02:43 First of all, if you refer to social media, then you will be able to confirm how the Cipher operates.
02:53 Rana Sanaullah has also given a statement on this and the Federal Investigating Agency has also adopted its position during the remand hearing of Shah Mehmood Qureshi
03:06 that the original Cipher is present in the office of the Foreign Office.
03:10 When this message comes, four copies of it are made, one of which is called a photocopy, a carbon copy, which is given to the Prime Minister.
03:21 And when it is given to the Prime Minister, then it is the responsibility of the Prime Minister's office, not the individual.
03:29 So when an individual leaves the office of the Prime Minister, it is not something that he can take along.
03:36 And what was in his possession at that time was a photocopy, a carbon copy, of which various copies of course go to the President first,
03:45 then to the Army Chief, then to the DGISI and then to the Prime Minister.
03:51 So this copy is in the possession of the Foreign Office and they have changed their position on where this copy is.
03:58 And half of the case of the Cipher is on the fact that we have to get a copy of the Cipher from Imran Khan.
04:06 So there is so much contradiction in their own statement and so much inconsistent and contradictory approach that I think it is clear that the Cipher is in the Foreign Office where it should be.
04:22 But Mr. Salman, if the copy is lost as the Prime Minister, then it is the responsibility of the PM House,
04:28 because it is a matter of a National Classified Document, if it is lost from the Prime Minister's house, then the case itself changes.
04:36 Exactly, this is our position. For the sake of argument, you also say that he had a copy,
04:44 so what is written in it, those copies and that version, that position can be verified from four places,
04:54 that what was in it, on a photocopy, as they say, to make a mountain out of a molehill, that has been done here.
05:02 I will tell you at the same time that if we look at the criminal prosecutions and the Official Secrets Act,
05:10 so far there are very few prosecutions initiated in the Official Secrets Act.
05:18 And it is reserved for the internal matters of the armed forces, if there is a charge of spying,
05:26 if there is an anti-state activity with the enemy state, then these prosecutions are initiated on it.
05:33 I am surprised that the Federal Investigating Agency has not initiated diplomatic exchange of communication between two countries
05:47 by bringing it in the sphere of criminal law, this is a very harmful and dangerous trend,
05:55 which will probably be used in the future for political score settling and political victimization.
06:02 But sir, tell us, Salman Sardar sahib, the old section 5 and 4 of the Official Secrets Act have been put on the former Prime Minister,
06:09 the FIR that is in front of us, after the revival, is there any issue of the new Official Secrets Act?
06:15 Because after this revival, not only physical and digital evidence can be used as evidence,
06:20 but if you get a copy of this from the press at home, then your entire case is ruined.
06:25 Meher, as soon as Imran Khan sir's conviction is in the Tosha Khana, a very comprehensive,
06:32 a surprise raid within 30 minutes of announcing of the verdict is done in a very concise manner.
06:39 And everything at home is done in a very straightforward manner.
06:43 So if there was a message of a cipher at that time, then it would have been taken in its translation at that time.
06:50 Because you know that since the last 10 months, his stay and residence is in a very concise manner.
06:56 So if there was anything in his physical custody, then in 2-2.5 hours, as they say, the post-mortem of the entire house would have been done.
07:03 Now coming back to your question, see, why was the need to translate?
07:10 There is an old law of 1923, it has been many years since 1923, this is 2023.
07:18 So that law was not catering to the message of the cipher in any way.
07:24 So today, the need was felt that to do the right prosecution, it should be corrected so that the law can be stretched
07:33 and the present government can take Imran Khan sir in its custody.
07:36 But neither the old law nor the new law, both are spineless, both are the prosecution.
07:44 Neither section 5 is applied on them nor section 9.
07:48 See, in this case, I will simplify it for your audience because cipher is a very complicated subject and prosecution.
07:59 I will simplify it.
08:01 There are two main accusations against Khan sir of cipher.
08:05 Number one, that you have kept it illegally with you and you are not giving it.
08:10 You have your own opinion that it is original, it is with the foreign office and you only have a photocopy.
08:16 Number two, you misused it.
08:20 Prejudicial to the national security.
08:22 On that, the briefing that Khan sir gave me today, the meeting I had with him for 15 minutes,
08:29 he told that as soon as the objectionable message came, it was first placed in front of the federal government cabinet.
08:39 And the entire cabinet quorum raised their eyebrows at him and then it was unanimously decided that it should be declassified.
08:51 So when the cabinet in the presence of the Prime Minister decided that it should be declassified,
08:59 then this was not the official secret after that day.
09:03 So how is the prosecution of the Official Secret Act 1923 of 5 and Section 9?
09:09 9 is the charge of instigation and abetment.
09:13 So the prosecution of 5 and 9 is wholly out of place.
09:17 Neither can the FIR be registered on it nor can the Federal Investigating Agency investigate it.
09:24 And for about 10 months, the Lahore High Court has kept this investigation on these foundations.
09:31 It suddenly came from the back burner to the front burner so that Khan sir was also involved in this case.
09:38 But Salman sir, you also said about the declassification of CIFIR in the day and now again you have made this claim.
09:45 When the special cabinet meeting was held on 9 April 2022, the decision was made that CIFIR will be partially declassified.
09:53 We were also reporting then, we had information, we were also talking.
09:57 One copy was sent to the Speaker, one copy was sent to the President of the country, who later sent the copy to the Chief Justice of Pakistan.
10:03 The journalists were only sharing text, it was done again and again.
10:06 I was also present in those meetings, I was not shown, the text was shared.
10:10 But this was partial declassification, sir.
10:13 Look, first of all, if we come inside this allegation, like I told you what is crime.
10:21 Crime is any activity, which is anti-state activity, any cooperation with the enemy state,
10:27 any map given to someone, any sensitive thing that compromises your national security.
10:36 Here, Meher, you have to understand that this prosecution is not of Kalbhushan Yadav,
10:43 this is not the prosecution of any Abhinandan. Former Prime Minister and Foreign Minister,
10:52 these are very important, responsible positions.
10:56 And all the members of the Cabinet are very educated, well-educated people.
11:02 This is the first time I am hearing about partial.
11:06 Nothing was partial. And if this was partial, then this is a matter of further inquiry.
11:12 On the basis of these evidences, you have to keep someone in jail and not let him come out.
11:21 This is a very sad thing. This is a case on the face of it.
11:25 If this crime is proven, if there is truth in it, then the punishment for this is two years.
11:30 So for the punishment of two years of crime, you have jeopardized the mechanism of a former Prime Minister
11:35 and the entire mechanism of the Foreign Office, this cipher, and it is being attracted for no reason.
11:42 But Salman Sardar, the FIR that was filed in August, both the former Prime Minister and the former Foreign Minister are involved.
11:50 But Azam Khan, his principal secretary, and Asad Umar, his minister, both their roles have not been defined yet.
11:57 Yes, I would like to say something on this.
12:00 When cases are weak and the prosecution is not capable of proving the crime,
12:08 then such swords are definitely hung on some people, they are threatened that either you become a witness or you become a criminal.
12:16 I think it is better if I do not say anything more than this.
12:19 So I guess there is more to it than what meets the eye.
12:22 And sir, witnesses will be presented on your behalf, because this conspiracy has been mentioned again and again.
12:28 You have also clarified the role of the Cabinet in its declassification.
12:31 And in the conspiracy, your client directly mentioned General Bajwa, so those witnesses will also be present.
12:38 Look, first of all, the government, that is, the FIA, they have to stand on their own legs.
12:46 They have to prove this case themselves, which will be a failure in this case, this case cannot be proven.
12:52 And what will be brought in the witness defense, this is a matter of course.
12:56 But my assessment is that this is not a case to bring a witness defense.
13:03 Yes, you are right that if this happened with the approval of the Cabinet, then the entire Cabinet prosecution should be involved in this.
13:12 Why did you single it out and decide to only have Imran Khan's criminal prosecution?
13:20 Their criminal prosecution will be done because their prosecution season has been going on for the past year.
13:26 They have had more than 150 cases in the past 10 months.
13:34 You must appreciate that it has happened that a person after 70, at the age of 71, steps into the world of crime and commits a crime every day.
13:49 So here sedition, mutiny, treason, murder, Tosha Khana 302, and then foreign funding and now CYFIR.
14:02 So it seems that this is a person who does whatever work he gets, that is, he does whatever crime he gets.
14:10 So this is very unfortunate, political victimization has never been seen before.
14:15 You have demanded an open trial, you have raised objections to the judge.
14:19 Sir, Tahir Abbas Sipra, Chief Election Commissioner, Judge Aamir Farooq, Judge Dilawar,
14:24 there will be no judge left in this country who can hear your client's case.
14:28 If I tell you how many judges are listening to the case, then their number is, if I say 180 cases, then maybe the same number of judges.
14:38 First of all, I did not raise any objection in any of my cases.
14:43 But Imran Khan's fundamental rights, and if you look at Pakistan's judicial history,
14:51 if you look at the case of one person, 18 cases were filed against him, and a storm came on him,
14:58 and political victimization was stopped in one hand and relief was also given.
15:03 It has been a year here, and courts are presented daily, but this political victimization has not ended till today.
15:16 Imran Khan was appearing, despite security threats, he was attacked,
15:23 but despite that he was making an effort, struggling that in every case I will appear in front of the judges,
15:29 and I will prove my innocence, and countless judges have...
15:34 But Salman Safdar, the problem is that this is a matter of national security.
15:39 But there has to be an end to it.
15:40 Qatar Kalam Imam, this is a matter of national security, Salman Safdar, you are still wanting an open trial,
15:45 you raised objections to the judge, but an open trial?
15:49 First of all, I would like to tell you that the decision that was made last night that this trial will be held in jail,
15:58 I would like to tell you the reason for that, the notification of the Ministry of Law,
16:02 which you may have seen, this case is of Interior, its Mudaeeb is also the Secretary of Interior,
16:10 and at this time, the notification that they have been issued that this will be a jail trial,
16:18 that too was issued by the Interior, and it is written in it that this will be a jail trial,
16:23 not because the Official Secrets Act is applied, but because Imran Khan has security threats,
16:29 and concerns, we cannot bring him to court.
16:32 So those security threats and concerns, we have been listening to them in different courts for about a year,
16:38 we have been discussing them in our program, we have been saying this every day, but it was ignored.
16:43 So today, on whose behalf did they have a security threat?
16:46 What incident has come overnight that they cannot be brought to court now?
16:50 If they used to come every day, then they should be brought, and an open trial should be held.
16:53 Thank you very much, Salman Safdar was with us,
16:56 Lead Counsel in the Saifah case for the former Prime Minister.
17:00 Let's take a break, after the break, the most important news,
17:02 that hot potato that is being thrown from one side to the other,
17:06 no one is ready to take it in their hands, no one is ready to decide,
17:09 Senator Kamran Murtaza will be with us.
17:11 On August 23, President of the United States, Tarif Alvi, wrote a letter for a consultation invitation,
17:23 to the Chief Election Commissioner, that in relation to the date of the elections,
17:26 he has a right to give this date, under Article 48.5, the consultation invitation has been rejected,
17:32 it has been declared as a result of a scant consequence, by the Chief Election Commissioner,
17:36 and after that, the President of the country asked for an opinion from the Ministry of Justice,
17:41 which has come to light today, no surprises, the Ministry of Justice says,
17:45 the President has no role in giving the election date,
17:49 that is, the Election Commission has the full power to give the date of the elections.
17:54 The Senator, who is present with us, in relation to the passing of the Official Secret Acts,
17:58 whose party and the part of the Election Reform Committee,
18:03 Senator Kamran Murtaza, thank you very much,
18:06 first of all, you will say that the Special Court of the Tehreek-e-Insaf has raised objections,
18:10 then the trial judge, and the judge has raised objections, what will you say?
18:16 Look, there are two versions in this, one version is of the PTI,
18:20 and the other version is of the prosecution,
18:23 they have the right to raise objections, they have the right to raise objections against the judge,
18:28 or in the place of the trial, they have the right to raise objections against him,
18:32 they can use their right, but the ultimate decision is not to be taken by the court,
18:36 now, whether this matter of the cipher applies or not,
18:40 I say that this is subjudice, and I will give my opinion on the subjudice,
18:44 my opinion will not be appropriate,
18:46 but, otherwise, morally, whatever they have been doing,
18:50 by waving a paper in the elections, that was not right.
18:53 Morally, you said morally, because the Lead Counsel, Salman Safdarabi,
18:57 was claiming that the Official Secret Act was not applicable on the former Prime Minister and the former Foreign Minister,
19:02 so, this document was declassified according to him,
19:05 but, can this law be applied retrospectively, Senator?
19:09 I had opposed the Official Secret Act in the Senate,
19:14 and I am not in favour of it, but how can it be applied back to the date?
19:19 Suppose, today, despite our opposition, despite our objections,
19:25 this law was made, but the incident has to be taken somewhere else before that,
19:31 the day the incident happened, this law was not there,
19:35 so, you cannot apply any penal law retrospectively,
19:40 except for the NAB law, which had been effected in 1985,
19:44 then, in the case of Asfand Yarwali, I don't know what the situation was at that time,
19:48 in the case of Asfand Yarwali, they said that it can be done,
19:51 but, I think that it cannot be done by backdate,
19:54 I have my own reservations in that.
19:58 And Senator, one of the most important issues,
20:01 is that the date of the elections is not being decided,
20:05 no one is able to sit, you are a part of the Elections Reform Committee,
20:09 with the support of your own efforts,
20:12 the Election Commission is claiming to have the right to give date,
20:15 and today, the Ministry of Law has given the same opinion to the President,
20:18 that this right is of the Election Commission of Pakistan, what will you say?
20:23 I do not agree with the interpretation of the Election Commission and the Ministry of Law,
20:30 the constitution is valid, the 48.5 is absolutely clear,
20:35 giving date is the right of the President,
20:38 and giving schedule in accordance with that date, is the right of the Election Commission.
20:42 And Sir, how long will this confusion remain?
20:44 You are one of the legislators, you are one of the legislators,
20:48 and you are also saying that the reform is not applicable,
20:51 and this right is of the President, but neither the Election Commission is agreeing,
20:54 nor the Nigrand government is agreeing, nor the Muslim League is agreeing,
20:57 so three requests have already reached the Supreme Court,
21:00 if your interpretation of the Supreme Court agrees with this interpretation,
21:03 then you are seeing a new wave of confusion?
21:06 A new wave is visible ahead,
21:09 and the confusion is visible because of the 90 days that are being tried to prolong this,
21:14 in any case, this chapter should be closed now, Article 224 is clear,
21:19 before this, what happened and what did not happen,
21:22 Imran Khan did not do well, he broke three assemblies in a year,
21:26 and whatever happened after that,
21:28 but now the nation should go towards the general election,
21:31 90 days have passed, 15, 16, 17 days have passed,
21:34 count the remaining days, there should be an election within this,
21:38 54 days of schedule implementation,
21:40 Sir, on the other hand, we are seeing that a basket of cases has been laid,
21:44 which the Chief Justice has to decide,
21:46 the Supreme Court's practice and procedure bill has yet to be decided,
21:49 but the Chief Justice is still going to give a decision on the NAB reform,
21:52 he has expressed his determination,
21:54 which decision should come first,
21:56 because the Chief Justice said that he does not know what the government's position is,
21:59 whether the case should be stopped in the light of a dead law,
22:03 in the past, you have seen that the Supreme Court has also seen a clear division on the Chief Justice's decisions,
22:08 Justice Qazi Faiz Isa, Justice Muhammad Amin's decision,
22:11 also said that until the judicial responsibility is not formed,
22:14 till then, under Article 184(3) of the Constitution,
22:18 all cases related to suo moto notices should be heard, but this did not happen.
22:23 Look, because of that law, the designated Chief Justice is not sitting,
22:32 he is not hearing the cases,
22:34 and because till now, that law is holding the field,
22:38 unless the court sets it aside,
22:40 so I think that first it should have been heard,
22:44 then it should have been moved forward,
22:46 but there is one more thing,
22:48 there has been a practice that when you are close to retirement,
22:52 then very important cases,
22:54 or usually, very common cases,
22:56 they do not touch that God forbid,
22:58 this impression should not go that somewhere in a case you have an interest,
23:03 anyway, it is the preference of the Chief Justice that whether he listens or not,
23:08 but usually, people avoid going very close to retirement,
23:13 and do not take cases in that way.
23:16 Sir, two weeks are left for the Chief Justice to leave,
23:19 and you are saying that usually he does not do it,
23:21 but more than half, the decisions of the most important cases are expected,
23:25 which will have a far-reaching impact on politics.
23:28 Look, the problem will be that the nation will be further divided,
23:32 the court is divided, the nation is also divided,
23:34 but it will be further divided,
23:36 the reason for that, know it.
23:38 These are very important decisions,
23:39 obviously, it has a political impact,
23:41 and when there are cases of political impact,
23:44 then nowadays, in politics, or political parties,
23:47 we do not take it in that way,
23:49 if it comes in their favor, it is a very good decision,
23:51 if it comes against them, it is a very bad decision,
23:53 irrespective of whether it is right or wrong.
23:56 There is no legal debate on it,
24:00 there is a debate on whether there is a favor or not.
24:04 Now look at it from another angle,
24:06 now 18-20 days are left,
24:08 now assume that in 18-20 days,
24:11 in another 5-7-10 days, a decision is made.
24:14 The Supreme Court is already divided,
24:16 and it is a very big divide,
24:18 and every child can see this division,
24:21 he is seeing it.
24:22 So, after that, a decision is made,
24:25 and after that, any review will be filed,
24:27 it will be filed with the future Supreme Court.
24:31 And at that time, your practice and procedure act may be present,
24:35 or may not be present,
24:38 if it is not present at that time,
24:40 then a review will be filed for all of them,
24:42 and when a review will be filed,
24:44 then if these very important decisions of the Supreme Court,
24:46 God forbid, are going to be reviewed by some other bench,
24:49 then you will be further divided or not,
24:52 so do not keep the basis of such a division,
24:57 which has been kept a long time ago,
25:00 but it will be so deep that we may not be able to sit together,
25:04 and reach any conclusion.
25:06 So, we have to think about these things,
25:09 God has given you very big positions,
25:11 and those who have got very big positions,
25:13 their responsibilities are also very big.
25:15 Thank you very much,
25:16 Senator Kamran Murtaza was with us,
25:18 and he is strongly opposing this statement of the Ministry of Law.
25:24 Let's take a break,
25:25 after the break, we will move to the most important news.
25:33 There is a protest going on for four days against the increase in electricity bills.
25:36 People are gathering in the office,
25:38 four meetings have been held by the Minister of Health.
25:41 And during this time, two ministers of health have come to our program and claimed
25:45 that talks are also going on with the IMF,
25:47 and soon we will get good news.
25:49 We have to give priority to the people,
25:52 and today also there were big marathon sessions,
25:54 yesterday also you know there were sessions,
25:56 and now in the cabinet,
25:58 Minister Power is coming with a formula,
26:02 and if it is approved,
26:04 then it will be announced,
26:05 in which some arrangements will be made for the relief of the people.
26:08 I am not talking about days and weeks,
26:10 I think it is a matter of a few hours,
26:13 we are taking some decisions,
26:15 in which we want that people get relief,
26:18 so I don't think there will be any difficulty in this.
26:21 Minister of Health claimed that when I am addressing you,
26:24 the Finance Minister is talking to the IMF,
26:27 and the Minister of Income, Mr. Bukti,
26:29 claimed in our program that from the 16th grade,
26:32 all the free electricity and power will be cut off.
26:36 We did not get good news,
26:37 but today the Finance Minister has revealed the opposite,
26:41 that we do not have unlimited power,
26:44 we will have to transfer the burden on the people.
26:46 Due to the agreement between the previous elected government and the IMF,
26:50 hands are tied,
26:51 and there is no financial scope to give subsidies.
26:53 Unfortunately, no effort was left to destroy the economy,
26:57 and the country's economy is much worse than it is.
27:00 The first official statement from the government,
27:02 which was given by the Finance Minister, Dr. Shamshad Akhtar,
27:05 in the committee of the Finance Committee.
27:08 Due to a shortage of money,
27:10 every 15 days people are given a shot of medicine,
27:13 due to the increase in petroleum products.
27:15 The people can be attacked by a petrol bomb at any time.
27:18 According to the sources, a summary prepared by the Ogra,
27:21 which will be sent to the Ministry of Finance tomorrow,
27:23 will cost 10 rupees for petrol,
27:25 and 15 rupees for diesel,
27:27 and the electricity will be 2 rupees more expensive.
27:32 We are joined by the star reporter, Mr. Shahbaz Rana.
27:37 Mr. Shahbaz, thank you for being with us.
27:39 What news do you have?
27:40 The Finance Minister has sent the final proposal this morning,
27:43 and the Cabinet has told us,
27:45 that by tomorrow morning,
27:46 he will get the answer,
27:48 but the policies of decades cannot be completed in a week.
27:50 Ms. Shamshad is saying this.
27:52 In the name of Allah, the most merciful, the most merciful.
27:55 Ms. Meher, there are two things in this.
27:57 One is that, as a matter of fact,
27:59 at the level of the Pakistani government and IMF staff,
28:02 they had a meeting last night,
28:04 in which the Pakistani government put forward a proposal,
28:07 that we want to do six of the electricity bills that have come in August,
28:11 and in that, the gap,
28:13 if there are six of them,
28:15 then the power distribution companies,
28:17 their revenues will be hurt.
28:19 To compensate for that, we will take loans from the banks,
28:22 and by taking loans from the banks,
28:24 we will pay these power companies,
28:26 and then those payments will go to the independent power producers,
28:30 and the interest on those loans,
28:32 we will pay them by making our recoveries better.
28:35 So, this proposal was put forward by the IMF yesterday,
28:38 which is also published in our Khabar Bihar Express Tribune today.
28:40 But the IMF did not give permission for this last night,
28:43 nor did it refuse.
28:44 They said that we will think about this further,
28:48 and will let you know.
28:49 Definitely, they will do their consultations at the highest level,
28:52 and then they will respond back to Pakistan.
28:54 Today, the Senate Standing Committee on Finance meeting,
28:58 in which Dr. Shamshad Akhtar Sahiba's first public appearance was held,
29:01 after taking oath of office,
29:03 and her first policy statement was also presented,
29:06 for the first time in more than two weeks.
29:08 So, I will give you a mixed reaction to that.
29:12 When it came to the situation of the people,
29:16 and the burden that they are bearing,
29:18 what will you do about it?
29:20 Can you do anything substantial?
29:22 She was very much categorical about it.
29:25 We do not have any fiscal space,
29:27 so do not expect anything from us.
29:30 But when she was told that you will withdraw the free electricity of Ashrafiya,
29:38 she said that this is not our mandate,
29:40 this is not our job,
29:41 how will we do it?
29:42 This is our policy.
29:43 When the meeting ended,
29:45 and she came out of the committee room,
29:48 I asked her,
29:49 you took a big plane,
29:50 and you said that you do not have fiscal space,
29:53 but do you have the courage to withdraw the subsidies of all the powerful people,
29:59 not only subsidies but the free electricity,
30:01 in which there is our judiciary, our armed forces,
30:04 and the officials of our power distribution companies.
30:06 She replied that we cannot do it,
30:08 it is not our mandate.
30:09 So, one thing became very clear,
30:11 that where there is no voice,
30:13 keep doing it,
30:14 there are international agreements,
30:15 and where there is a voice,
30:16 someone's pressure,
30:17 or if you give back someone's facility,
30:22 then they will be in trouble,
30:23 and if they are in trouble,
30:24 then they will be in trouble,
30:25 then they will not do anything.
30:26 But there are some fixed goals with IMF,
30:29 we have to achieve the fiscal deficit and the primary surplus,
30:32 but along with this,
30:33 there is also a target of circular debt of 2310 Arabian Rubles,
30:36 which we have to maintain according to the IMF bill.
30:38 Targeted subsidies are also limited to 900 Arabian Rubles,
30:41 so there is no scope,
30:42 she is right about that,
30:43 but the will should also be seen somewhere,
30:45 if the chairman of Nadra can arrange for the elections in a rule,
30:50 that the present service officers,
30:52 the army can also be appointed,
30:54 then maybe they can do it,
30:56 if you asked the same question.
30:58 Look, Bismehr,
30:59 as far as the government has any scope to give more subsidies,
31:04 the first budget is of 976 Arabian Ruble subsidies,
31:07 so they have no scope at all,
31:09 I will support them up to this point,
31:11 and it is right that more subsidies cannot be afforded.
31:13 Secondly, the solution they have brought,
31:16 that we will do 6-7 electricity bills,
31:20 is this a solution?
31:22 This can definitely give you a temporary relief,
31:25 it cannot do anything more than this.
31:27 Now the problem will be that your August bill,
31:30 if you do not deposit it,
31:31 or if you do,
31:32 then your 6-7 will be done,
31:34 and they will be together from October to March,
31:36 October 2023 to March 2024.
31:39 So you will give your routine bill,
31:41 and they will give it together,
31:43 and then the things that will come next,
31:45 your quarterly tariff adjustment,
31:46 fuel price adjustment,
31:48 the increase in its cost,
31:50 you will pay that too,
31:51 so this is not a solution.
31:53 Now, this is something that is going to be accepted,
31:55 that there is no space,
31:56 here you come to the second point,
31:58 tell me this,
31:59 that I have a problem today,
32:01 today the majority of your people,
32:03 they are hurt,
32:04 they are on the streets,
32:05 and we are told that there is no fiscal space,
32:07 this is absolutely right,
32:08 this should be told.
32:09 So then,
32:10 when my neighbor gets free electricity,
32:13 the person whose salary is the highest in Pakistan,
32:16 he gets free electricity,
32:17 he gets unlimited free electricity,
32:19 so will I be hurt or not?
32:21 There they remember their merits,
32:22 there they remember their limitations,
32:27 the problem is that
32:28 the elite capture of Israfiya in Pakistan
32:31 has become very strong,
32:33 no one is ready to put their hand in their mouth.
32:36 I will tell you one thing,
32:38 put your researchers and find out,
32:40 the income tax ordinance has a second schedule,
32:43 just find out who has been exempted from income tax in this country,
32:46 there they will not do anything,
32:48 here they will know that
32:49 we have international agreements,
32:51 so this is something that protects each other,
32:55 if they want to do it,
32:56 they can do it today too,
32:57 yesterday,
32:58 it was okay to say that
33:00 we cannot announce any agreement
33:03 until the IMF agrees to it,
33:06 who stopped the cabinet yesterday
33:08 that you cannot withdraw their free electricity?
33:11 Was there any value to the IMF on this?
33:12 The IMF would be happy
33:13 that you are shutting down a source of bleeding,
33:16 these are all their excuses and their intentions,
33:18 here they have a very serious issue.
33:19 This is the wonder,
33:20 because this is the claim that Mr. Bukti made
33:22 that they will forgive free electricity for everyone above the 16th grade,
33:25 but here,
33:26 the income tax has been ruined,
33:27 the President is also trying to increase his salary in these circumstances,
33:30 it's amazing,
33:31 but shouldn't the Finance Minister
33:33 take people in confidence?
33:35 There was no policy statement before this,
33:38 there were just two press releases,
33:39 there was no communication,
33:41 there is a lot of uncertainty in the markets,
33:45 the dollar has crossed the triple century,
33:48 the spread in the interbank open market
33:50 has reached up to 20 rupees,
33:51 Dr. Waqar, the Finance Advisor,
33:53 is also not on the same page as the Finance Minister,
33:55 what is going on?
33:57 We were told that the government of the caretaker,
34:01 or the technocrats,
34:02 is being prepared very well,
34:05 for many months,
34:07 even when the government was of the PTI,
34:09 then too there was a noise of technocrats,
34:11 when the PTI government was there,
34:12 then too there was a noise of technocrats,
34:13 so the best technocrat team that they could install,
34:16 they did it.
34:17 Now, what has come out in all these circumstances,
34:20 on Saturday, there is an announcement from the Prime Minister,
34:24 that I have to take action, I have taken a notice,
34:27 on Sunday, the PM does a meeting,
34:29 on Monday too,
34:30 on Tuesday, there is a Cabinet meeting,
34:32 nothing happens,
34:33 so that shows that either they lack the experience,
34:37 which they lack,
34:38 or they lack the capacity to take those decisions,
34:43 I am not advocating here at all,
34:46 that you take any kind of IMF program,
34:48 we cannot do it,
34:50 we are in very bad condition,
34:51 so why do you give hope to these artificial people,
34:56 your work is not to do politics,
34:59 you are a caretaker set up,
35:00 you run your caretaker set up as a caretaker,
35:03 on the other hand, you pointed out that our finance advisors,
35:07 and the Federal Minister for Finance,
35:09 there are also very serious issues,
35:11 this is the reason that the finance advisor,
35:14 on the first day, for a couple of hours,
35:16 the office of the Minister of State,
35:18 the office of Dr. Bakar,
35:19 because his status is of MOS,
35:21 his office is on the third floor,
35:23 he cannot sit in his room,
35:25 so he has to sit in the PM's office,
35:28 so when these kinds of situations arise,
35:30 then in the market,
35:32 a vacuum is created,
35:34 a gap is created,
35:35 you have seen that gap,
35:36 that gap is now appearing in the form of Rs. 323 and Rs. 325,
35:40 because of that gap,
35:41 many other problems are emerging,
35:43 so I hope that the best team,
35:45 who has also made it,
35:46 I hope that they will order their house within two weeks.
35:49 But sir, it is a big problem,
35:51 they will see the house in order,
35:52 but at least do the efficiency improvement,
35:54 the government has been given a briefing of 400 billion losses,
35:59 losses of theft,
36:00 this can be stopped further, right sir?
36:03 What they have built in themselves,
36:05 in the circular aid plan,
36:06 that is a loss of Rs. 464 billion,
36:09 theft, inefficiency, losses,
36:12 and less recovery,
36:13 they start reducing that,
36:15 the power secretary himself told,
36:19 the background briefing of the media persons,
36:22 on Saturday,
36:23 when the Prime Minister took this notice,
36:25 he himself said that we have a recovery of Rs. 2500 billion,
36:28 in which the government departments,
36:29 try to do something there,
36:31 so that if you get some space from there,
36:34 and if you are going to do their bill,
36:37 then the space you get from there,
36:39 take the money and give it to the power companies,
36:41 so that you can take more loans,
36:43 and the previous loans that have been taken,
36:45 to end the circular debt,
36:46 for that Rs. 3.23,
36:48 they have given us a huge surcharge,
36:50 I don't understand,
36:52 how this system will work,
36:53 whether their intention is to be rectified or not,
36:55 they are going around the circular area,
36:57 and at some point they come back.
36:58 You have mentioned the circular area,
36:59 you are right about the circular area,
37:00 because the inflation goes up,
37:02 the dollar goes up,
37:03 after that the electricity prices go up,
37:05 from that the interest rate goes up,
37:06 then we chase the inflation,
37:08 it goes up again,
37:09 the dollar goes up,
37:10 people are buying more,
37:12 we are seeing that,
37:13 you are increasing the interest rate,
37:15 still people are buying the dollar,
37:17 because no one believes in the purchasing power of rupees,
37:20 so an increasing dollar,
37:21 is increasing the energy prices,
37:23 and the electricity prices are going up,
37:25 more theft is happening,
37:26 more defaults are happening,
37:27 so you are seeing that,
37:29 the electricity consumption is going down,
37:31 money is also being collected less,
37:32 capacity payments are increasing,
37:33 higher electricity bills are coming,
37:35 people are committing suicides,
37:36 are cutting off their hunger,
37:37 even today the IAS has said,
37:38 that this is the last date to pay,
37:40 so additional costs are being passed on,
37:42 which are honest and truthful,
37:44 bill payers are saying,
37:46 so energy bills are pushing the inflation,
37:48 and also increasing the interest rates,
37:50 it is a vicious cycle,
37:52 the economy is going round and round,
37:54 we are all stuck in it,
37:55 we are seeing an infinite loop,
37:56 what is the solution to this?
37:58 See, what you have said,
38:00 you have finished everything here,
38:02 we are stuck in a cycle,
38:03 which is a bigger thing than this,
38:04 which we are not realizing,
38:06 and those who are running the country,
38:07 are not realizing it,
38:08 the team that they have put together,
38:11 to run this country,
38:12 in probably the worst ever economic times,
38:16 they are probably not geared up,
38:19 to do all this work,
38:21 the cycle that you are telling,
38:23 but the thing is,
38:24 we should talk openly,
38:26 our people are on the streets,
38:27 and literally,
38:28 suicides have happened,
38:29 in this situation,
38:30 we have been given this solution,
38:31 that those people,
38:33 who have been made to run the economy,
38:35 who are not ready to talk to each other,
38:37 those people who doubt each other,
38:39 how will this system work?
38:41 And the doubt is not just of the ministers,
38:43 the advisors,
38:44 but the bureaucracy of the ministers,
38:46 that whether they do this work with us or not,
38:48 so my humble submission is,
38:51 that whoever is running this country,
38:54 they should understand this,
38:56 that we are not working in normal circumstances,
39:00 they should really understand,
39:02 that this is the time,
39:03 where you really have to protect,
39:06 the national interest in real terms,
39:08 our domestic issues.
39:10 Thank you very much,
39:11 Shabaz Rana was with us,
39:12 the minimum wage earner of 35,000,
39:14 if he pays 20,000 electricity bills,
39:16 then what will he do with the children?
39:19 From where will he pay his bills?
39:21 There is no money left to eat poison,
39:23 God have mercy,
39:24 good night, Allah Hafiz.